Originally Posted By: Orac
I am not doing a socrates here it is the way you can't have energy without containment else it explodes or implodes in a flash and ceases to be energy

Isn't that what happened? But...

Originally Posted By: Orac
Containment requires forces which is my basic problem with Bill's conjecture that at the start of the universe we just had a bundle of energy ...

I don't think anyone is disputing that there was a force and that gravity may have been either separate or included. My understanding of 'just a bundle of energy' is that there were, at that moment, none of the subsequent manifestations of energy, but I'm not putting words into Bill's mouth, he will speak for himself smile

"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler