Originally Posted By: Orac
My problem was and still is you simply won't accept that biology has to play by the universe energetics and laws of entropy you seem to think that biology is somehow special.

Since I have never once claimed this - indeed, I have argued stridently the opposite - I have to wonder if its worth replying to you anymore. You consistently lie and misrepresent what I have said previously - since you cannot even be honest about things printed half a page above your replies, how can we trust anything else you claim?

Originally Posted By: Orac
Here we have the life doesn't see these conditions counter yet you miss the point that the conditions are simply created to isolate the effects.

No, the conditions were created to prevent the mechanisms that normally destroy quantum phenomena at the macro level. That is the point I've been trying to make all along - under the conditions you see in biological organisms, quantum phenomena are not observed (except, perhaps in a few limited cases like photocapture systems), as the bulk-nature of the environment destroys (blurs, whatever you want to call it) quantum states.

Originally Posted By: Orac
So now your complaining that we aren't aguing the energetics of life but you can't even get it thru your head that QM is the only not disproven theory that exists to cover the discussion and worse you are insisting QM is wrong.

I'm not insisting that QM is wrong; only that your claims vis-a-vis QM are wrong.

I clipped your bit on bells theorem, to keep things short. I'd simply point out that it is not clear if his theorm is correct. It even says that in your own wikipedia article. Secondly, even if it is correct (and I'd take that bet) it still doesn't support your claims. At this time we cannot explain macrophenomina using QM principals. That's not to say that QM cannot explain macropheomina, but rather that the science hasn't advanced to that point as yet.

We continually circle this point, and you consistently throw up strawmen (bells therom being the most recent) to avoid the issue. So I'm going to give you a very simple problem to solve using QM. This is a very simple problem - we're talking a grade 11 biology/chemistry, easily solved using classical mechanics. Since I cannot prove a negative, this is your chance to prove me wrong, by solving a bulk-materials problem using QM methadologies. I'm not going to argue QM with you anymore until you can satisfy us on this point.

Here is the simplest (and most critical) aspect of biological thermodynamics. Solve it using solely QM principals (and show us the formula/papers/etc supporting the solution):

All bioenergetic processes rely on the pumping of protons across impermeable membranes. This creates an electrochemical potential across the membrane which can be harness to power chemical reactions, biological motors, etc. Assuming:
a) a perfectly impermeable barrier,
b) an internal pH of 7.8 and an external pH of 7.4
c) an infinite volume on either side of the membrane
d) a perfect energy-capture device embedded in the membrane

How much energy can be harnessed from a single proton passes through the energy-capture device?


Last edited by ImagingGeek; 03/14/13 01:58 PM.