Originally Posted By: Orac
Well if there is something then that is not the end of the universe we must include that in the universe. Universe is a science word it has a definition

Universe = all of time and space and its contents.


Could you be a little out of date here? smile As long ago as 1996 John Gribbin said:

“Universe With the capital “U”, the term used for everything that we can ever have knowledge of, the entire span of space and time accessible to our instruments, now and in the future. This may seem like a fairly comprehensive definition, and in the past has traditionally been regarded as synonymous with the entirety of everything that exists. But the development of ideas such as inflation suggests that there may be something else beyond the boundaries of the observable Universe - regions of space and time that are unobservable in principle, not just because light from them has not yet had time to reach us, or because our telescopes are not sensitive enough to detect their light. This has led to some ambiguity in the use of the term “Universe”. Some people restrict it to the observable Universe, while others argue that it should be used to refer to all of space and time. In this book, we use “Universe” as the name for our own expanding bubble of spacetime, everything that is in principle visible to our telescopes, if we wait long enough for the light to arrive. We suggest that the term “Cosmos” can be used to refer to the entirety of space and time, within which (if the inflationary scenario is correct) there may be an indefinitely large number of other expanding bubbles of spacetime, other universes with which we can never communicate.”

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So we either have formal containment (like a brick wall prison)…


Only if you assume we know all there is to know about the Universe, which you rightly point out, we don't.

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… or we have the dreaded physical infinity


You seem to be stuck on the idea that I dread physical infinity. On the contrary; I find it very difficult to see an alternative to physical infinity, but I am open to reasonable discussion. This is one reason why I tend to follow Gribbib’s Universe, universe, cosmos pattern. This permits an infinite cosmos and a Universe that could be finite or infinite. Any combination has its problems, but they are interesting.

Isn’t it Deutsch’s Law that says: “Every problem that is interesting is also soluble.”?


There never was nothing.