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#44534 08/01/12 08:23 PM
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Physics and Tautology.
=.
1
Where did the masses for big bang come from ?
These masses came from surrounding space.
2
Where did these masses from surrounding space come from ?
These masses came from big bang.
===.
Why he is poor ?
Because he is stupid.
Why he is stupid?
Because he is poor.
===.

.
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Originally Posted By: socratus

1
Where did the masses for big bang come from ?
These masses came from surrounding space.


No the mass came from interaction with the Higgs particle :=)


Originally Posted By: socratus

Where did these masses from surrounding space come from ?
These masses came from big bang.


No it was always there in the higgs field :=)


>>> Careful now I could really TAUNT you socratus <<<

You equate your god to the vacuum energy and yet science has shown that the vaccuum of space is most likely a FALSE vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_vacuum) does that make your god a FALSE GOD ???????

You need to learn the lessons of history where people made things they did not understand into representing GODS like gods of thunder and lightning and such.

Later as science understood these so these GODS ceased to exist except as a funny myth and your GOD OF THE VACUUM ENERGY is in the same peril.

See be very careful about conversations with us devils :-)


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: socratus

1
Where did the masses for big bang come from ?
These masses came from surrounding space.

No the mass came from interaction with the Higgs particle :=)

Where did ' the Higgs particle ' come from ?

==..

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Originally Posted By: socratus

Where did ' the Higgs particle ' come from ?


Messenger particle for the Higgs Field :-)

Now you are going to ask where the Higgs field came from aren't you .... Hahaha

Your "God of the vacuum" is getting more removed and more unimportant to the universe by every reply.

Learn a lesson socratus if there is a GOD he doesn't need a mechanism or a structure, that is why in most religions it is a sin to make GOD into an effegy WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

>>> You have made your god an effegy of the vacuum of space <<<

GOD if he exists makes what he wants to happen BECAUSE HE WILLS IT SO ... he is a divine entity and outside the rules of science.

A rainbow exists to humans as a visibile thing yet to science it is nothing more than optical effect it does not exist as an "entity" to science.

Science views god it much the same way it can shed no light on the presence or absence of GOD because like the rainbow, god is not a physical entity to science. GOD may be real but it is not a matter of science it is a matter of FAITH.

The discovery of the higgs firms up science understanding of space and vacuum and QM advances every day but none of that will help you with proof of a vacuum or energy god.

To me you look like you are struggling with your FAITH looking desperately for signs of your god in science and I am sorry we can't help you.

Last edited by Orac; 08/02/12 05:29 AM.

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Physics and Tautology.
=.
1
Where did the masses for big bang come from ?
These masses came from surrounding space.
2
Where did these masses from surrounding space come from ?
These masses came from big bang.
===.
Why is he poor ?
Because he is stupid.
Why is he stupid?
Because he is poor.
===.
The big bang doesnt give answer to the question:
where did the mass come from ?
To understand this we need go out from big bang .
But the big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened
at the very beginning of our universe. Prior to that moment there
was nothing;
So, . . where do we go out ?
==.

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Originally Posted By: socratus

So, . . where do we go out ?


We can't test what's out of the universe so science doesn't care ... GET IT SCIENCE DOESN'T CARE AND IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Let me reverse the problem .. assume science knew everything about the universe .. every single thing ... does that prove there isn't a god?

NO ... because god could have made it all to run automatic like humans make a robot or a production line.

Being a divine entity a god could simply decide to break all the rules he setup to do whatever he likes in the same way a human modifies a robot or production line.

RELIGION IS ABOUT FAITH ... SCIENCE IS ABOUT USABLE KNOWLEDGE

And that is the basic answer to your posts and why they are garbage and get you banned on science forums because they simply don't matter EXCEPT TO YOU because you seem to need proof of your god even though religion tells you time and time again that god will never give you you proof it is a matter of faith.

>>>> So now your question Socratus <<<<

If YOUR god wanted us to know he was real why doesn't he appear in the middle of prime time television or a very public place and start doing miracles every day so we know he is real????????

Hell he could have his own TV channel and advertise it because after all he is GOD.

You really think he would waste time trying to trick and fool science as some sort of proof of his existance ... SERIOUSLY ARE YOU THAT NAIVE AND DESPERATE?

It's a pretty basic question Socratus I have answered yours as honestly as I can try answering mine.

Last edited by Orac; 08/02/12 02:36 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: socratus

So, . . where do we go out ?


We can't test what's out of the universe so science doesn't care ... GET IT SCIENCE DOESN'T CARE AND IT DOESN'T MATTER.



If we go out of mass then it can be only one possibility -
- we will enter into an empty space.
==.
A world without masses, without electrons, without an
electromagnetic field is an empty world. Such an empty
world is flat. But if masses appear, if charged particles
appear, if an electromagnetic field appears then our world
becomes curved. Its geometry is Riemannian, that is,
non- Euclidian.
/ Book Albert Einstein The page 116 . by Leopold Infeld. /
===.

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Originally Posted By: socratus

If we go out of mass then it can be only one possibility -
- we will enter into an empty space.


INCORRECT

Mass is transferred by the reaction of matter with the higgs particle then if we go out as you put it we are simply something like the higgs.

Infact you would look alot like a something made of nuetrons and simply fly thru space barely interacting with the normal matter of this universe.

Where you would be well thats hard to say in the higgs world but not truely able to react in this universe.


Originally Posted By: socratus

A world without masses, without electrons, without an
electromagnetic field is an empty world. Such an empty
world is flat. But if masses appear, if charged particles
appear, if an electromagnetic field appears then our world
becomes curved. Its geometry is Riemannian, that is,
non- Euclidian.
/ Book Albert Einstein The page 116 . by Leopold Infeld. /
===.


AGAIN TOTALLY INCORRECT

The electron, mass and all our world is still there you just can't interact with it you would be like a classical ghost.

Mr Einstein predates the Higgs theory by 70 years so he can't help you in this matter :-)


GOTCHA


Socratus you havent answered your question about your god, cat got your tongue?

Last edited by Orac; 08/02/12 06:47 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: socratus

If we go out of mass then it can be only one possibility -
- we will enter into an empty space.

INCORRECT

Mass is transferred by the reaction of matter with the higgs particle
then if we go out as you put it
we are simply something like the higgs.


. . if we go out, we enter in a kingdom of higgs-bosons . . ?

==.

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Originally Posted By: socratus


. . if we go out, we enter in a kingdom of higgs-bosons . . ?

==.



yes into a Higgs ocean :-)

Lets see if I can explain this.

Higgs Ocean is a term scientists use as an expression for what is actually a "Vacuum Coherence. In simple terms what is the vacuum of space made of. This concept was first introduced by physicist, Peter Higgs.

The ocean term is used because in some ways the vast open areas of space are very like the large oceans which we are more familar with.

... hmmm lets see if i can find you some decent links.

=> http://www.science20.com/big_science_gambles/the_ocean_of_spacetime_and_the_higgs
=> http://www.cosi.org/cosi-blog/item/swimming-in-the-higgs-ocean


So thats the higgs part now lets deal with the mass part of your question.


From (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino)
- About 65 billion (6.51010) solar neutrinos per second pass through every square centimeter perpendicular to the direction of the Sun in the region of the Earth.

Those are massless particles living in the world right near you from our sun and they are in the world without mass you are trying to understand.

We can sort of see them if we set up special detection but mostly they just pass through the universe without interacting with it.

The universe doen't end or change because of those massless particles they just look like ghosts passing thru our matter.

So as scientists we can test that realm to some extent and probably as time goes on perhaps fully.

So YES the kingdom of the higgs-bosson exists and it is here right now and always has been from what we can tell.


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You have asked alot of questions so time to answer a few Socratus because it interests me having grown up under our former masters whose stated ideological goal was the elimination of religion.

So about the great god of the vacuum.

1.) Why did your god make the universe.

Various religions give different answers from a battleground for good and evil to test the souls of men at a fundementalist level to because he god was bored and wanted to show his magnificence.

So why did the great god of the vacuum make the universe?


2.) Why did your god make humans.

The fundementalis battleground for good and evil answers that question but its a very relevant question to others. So are we here as an accident or are we here for a specific reason.

So why did the great god of the vacuum make the humans?


So there you have it two simple questions which you should have no reason to avoid unless the great god ofthe vacuum has something to hide.

Last edited by Orac; 08/03/12 05:29 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: socratus


. . if we go out, we enter in a kingdom of higgs-bosons . . ?

==.

Higgs Ocean is a term scientists use as an expression for
what is actually a "Vacuum Coherence.
In simple terms what is the vacuum of space made of.


Higgs particle + Higgs Field = Higgs Ocean =
= Dirac virtual particles + Dirac Sea = Vacuum Coherence

===

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Not quite .... Dirac contrived a sea of negative charged particles to try and resolve an issue ... and I do mean contrived there is no scientific basis behind it other than to try and balance the cosmological constant.

That is VERY VERY different to the higgs where the particle is nuetral infact almost sterile in this universe. The higgs is a somewhat complex process by comparision as scientists struggled to find mechanisms that fitted the data not try to balance some abstract mathematical equation.

You still have NOT answered a single question Socratus and as this is getting boringly one sided I know how all this stuff works I shall probably cease discussion shortly.


My interest still is in why the universe and humans exist in your opinion.

This is one of the key differentials between science and religion.


Science can have the universe springing up because of some random fluctuation and humans here because we got a series of lucky breaks through evolution, so we are here because we are amongst the luckiest of chances.

The moment you bring a GOD into the equation all that changes the universe and humans have to exist for a very specfic reason

As someone who was bought up without religion and as a keen scientists this is the BIGGEST BY FAR change in introducing a GOD.

I can give you any number of papers and links on how the universe can be created by chance by subatomic quantum fluctions but the moment you bring in GOD chance goes there has to be reason.

As I look at all the religions now it my first question what is each religions logic of why GOD exists. Many I find totally lacking in any sort of sense.

And so the inescapable question I ask of the great vacuum god to you is

WHY?

Why does the universe exist and why humans exist for your religion.

Last edited by Orac; 08/04/12 04:26 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: socratus


. . if we go out, we enter in a kingdom of higgs-bosons . . ?

==.



yes into a Higgs ocean :-)

Lets see if I can explain this.

Higgs Ocean is a term scientists use as an expression for what is actually a "Vacuum Coherence. In simple terms what is the vacuum of space made of. This concept was first introduced by physicist, Peter Higgs.

The ocean term is used because in some ways the vast open areas of space are very like the large oceans which we are more familar with.

... hmmm lets see if i can find you some decent links.

=> http://www.science20.com/big_science_gambles/the_ocean_of_spacetime_and_the_higgs
=> http://www.cosi.org/cosi-blog/item/swimming-in-the-higgs-ocean


So thats the higgs part now lets deal with the mass part of your question.


From (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino)
- About 65 billion (6.51010) solar neutrinos per second pass through every square centimeter perpendicular to the direction of the Sun in the region of the Earth.

Those are massless particles living in the world right near you from our sun and they are in the world without mass you are trying to understand.

We can sort of see them if we set up special detection but mostly they just pass through the universe without interacting with it.

The universe doen't end or change because of those massless particles they just look like ghosts passing thru our matter.

So as scientists we can test that realm to some extent and probably as time goes on perhaps fully.

So YES the kingdom of the higgs-bosson exists and it is here right now and always has been from what we can tell.


Higgs particle + Higgs Field = Higgs Ocean.

The Ocean Of Spacetime And The Higgs
http://www.science20.com/big_science_gambles/the_ocean_of_spacetime_and_the_higgs

Swimming in the Higgs Ocean
http://www.cosi.org/cosi-blog/item/swimming-in-the-higgs-ocean

==..
Higgs Ocean is a Frame of Reference.
Is Higgs Ocean an open or closed system ?
Is Higgs Ocean a hot or cold system ?
Does Higgs Ocean have the cosmic microwave background
radiation parameter T=2,7K ?


==.

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YAWN ... ANSWER A QQUESTION OR LEAVE

Othewise this is all pointless.

Is your GOD and beliefs that pathetic you can't discuss them.

Last edited by Orac; 08/14/12 01:34 PM.

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Now who's flogging a dead horse?


There never was nothing.
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Now who's flogging a dead horse?


What object is ' a dead horse' ?

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Originally Posted By: socratus
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Now who's flogging a dead horse?

What object is ' a dead horse' ?

Socratus, a dead horse is much the same as a live one except that it's dead - the point being that it's noticeably less responsive. In other words, it means: to engage in fruitless effort.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Originally Posted By: redewenur
Originally Posted By: socratus
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Now who's flogging a dead horse?

What object is ' a dead horse' ?

Socratus, a dead horse is much the same as a live one except
that it's dead - the point being that it's noticeably less responsive.
In other words, it means: to engage in fruitless effort.


Thank you, redewenur
I understand your point.

Now try to understand my point.

Do you see the Orac picture: Beating a dead horse ?
You see the horse is dead.
And Bill S. ask : Now who's flogging a dead horse?

To beat a dead horse is a stupid business.
It is Sisyphean work
I changed the theme and ask: What object is ' a dead horse' ?

I will take this theme more broadly.
Modern physicists think that there is such thing as
randomness, probability, relativity . . . and they are basis of physics.


And I say that there is also such thing as absolutely
and absolutely is basis of physics.
For example: the reference frame T=0K is an absolute fact.
Speed of light quanta c=1 is another absolute fact.
Now it is possible to take these two (2) absolute parameters
and using SRT, QT and Thermodynamic laws and formulas
to explain the creation of nature and philosophy of physics
clear and logical.
=.
My question:
Can these two absolute parameters be a dead horse ?
=.

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