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#28400 - 11/19/08 03:39 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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Thislin wrote:
"A group of people cannot redefine words. This is the activity of lawyers who want to confuse the issues."

"A group of people" is exactly who does decide the meaning of words. I am old enough to remember when 'gay' meant ' very happy' and absolutely nothing else. It was also a popular girl's name, similar to Joy. "A group of people" changed the meaning almost overnight. There are many such examples, but this one of the most extreme, it happened very much more quickly than usual.

No meaning is set in stone, but we cannot individually decide on meaning or usage in a way binding on other people, partly because, as you suggest it would be legally meaningless. Lawyers do not re-define words, they merely challenge word meaning when the grammar or sytax allows for different interpretation. That is why, when we use a word, it should be carefully considered, terms should be defined with accuracy and the dictionary should be consulted frequently.

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#28403 - 11/19/08 04:14 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Now, Thislin, the above, by TT, should make sure you are among the enlightened ones, right?

I hope this brings you clarity to you mind! Or should I say pneuma? smile


Edited by Revlgking (11/19/08 04:15 AM)

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#28420 - 11/20/08 11:41 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Thislin Offline
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Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Now, Thislin, the above, by TT, should make sure you are among the enlightened ones, right?

I hope this brings you clarity to you mind! Or should I say pneuma? smile
I begin to think that this board is mainly inhabited by frustrated lawyers. Here we see someone playing games with the phrase "a group of people," taking my use of it out of context. It is true that people "decide" the meaning of words, but not by a "decision" process. The meanings of words are set by usage, largely a matter of chance.

The "gay" example is pertinent. Had it been put to a vote, the change in the meaning of the word would have been overwhelmingly defeated. However, languages that have a need (a non-technical, judgmentally neutral word for homosexual was needed) usually find a way to fill the need. It is not a conscious decision process--it just sort-of "happens."

If I recall correctly, the English "gay" was taken from French "gai," and not directly from the older English "gay,[happy]" which was thereby pushed aside. Multiple but related meanings of words often get that way from repeated borrowing from a nearby language (U gave long wondered why we call this stealing of words from another language "borrowing").

As far as dictionaries go, they are far too often treated as Holy Writ, while anyone reading the preface to a modern dictionary can see that this authoritative prescription of usage is not their function. They are good for avoiding serious malapropism, and of course for checking spelling, but meaning is up to the individual--some of the best writing routinely goes about stretching the dictionary meaning so as to express the heretofore unexpressed.

Trying to redefine the word "God" is an interesting exercise in windmill jousting, anyway. Whatever God is is what He is, if anything.


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#28422 - 11/20/08 03:57 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Thislin]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
Whatever God is, is what He is, if anything.
I agree! So what is God, for you?

BEWARE OF ORGANIZED RELIGION
============================
BTW, I have no intention of imposing any creeds or restrictive dogmatics of any organized religion on anyone, including on myself.

I learned a lot from the way I was raised, theologically speaking, for the simple reason that my teachers allowed us students freedom of conscience and had a great respect for reason and the value of science. I was taught how to think, not what to think. Because of this, I have a great deal of respect for my mentors.

This leads me to say: I find it is impossible to accept that there is a human-and-person-like god, separate and apart this cosmos and us humans. If you feel otherwise, I respect your opinion. Let us dialogue about, with respect for one another.

Be this as it may, my conscience led me to ask: Perhaps we need a new definition of the god-concept. This led me to seek for such a definition.

Until I hear of something better, at this point, I find it useful to stop thinking of 'God' as a proper noun.

Now I use the acronym GOD--meaning goodness, order and desirable--instead of the noun 'God'. BTW, see the spelling I use in my signature. Note that I use the symbol, Ø, the null. One scientist, in REDEFINEGOD.COM ,tells me that the null = 1/0, which, mathematically speaking, means that all things are possible, just as Jesus said.

http://www.redefinegod.com/profile/RevLGKing

IMO, in GØD, all things--even the apparently chaotic and evil--work together, ultimately, for Good (Paul). Meanwhile, science is working on helping bring Order out of the chaos, and the end result, I hope and believe, will be Desirable, beautiful, lovely and true. For me, this is what is ultimately good, valuable and eternally true.

THE WONDERFUL RESULTS OF BEING IN TUNE WITH THE INFINITE
========================================================
All this, in my opinion, has a very practical result. I am persuaded that the more and more I become aware of my at-one-ment with GØD, and stop resisting the flow of physical and mental abundance, the less and less I am a victim of negative physical and mental circumstances often filled with the misery of pain and suffering. The agony of fear, anxiety and doubt (FAD) are, rapidly, being replaced with that of joy and peace of mind.

To you, and anyone reading this post, I ask: How do you define the god-concept? What, for you, is the ultimate good and is of eternal value?


Edited by Revlgking (11/20/08 09:50 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28424 - 11/20/08 07:05 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Oh "Good" were no longer trying to re-define the word God anymore.
There is hope for humanity... wink
Now all we have to do is refine the intellect to stop defining that which cannot be defined and, to actually tune into the infinite.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28428 - 11/21/08 05:04 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Thislin Offline
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Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
I don't think there is a God except in human imagination, but I could be wrong. I rather doubt that, though, since thinking about the idea of God leads me to think that if such a Being really existed, His presence would be inescapably and blindingly obvious (unless He is going to considerable trouble to conceal His presence, and why would He do that?). That God's presence is not easily determined is what is obvious. It takes real work and a lot of faith to believe in God (and, I think, a huge dose of childhood indoctrination, since few who have not been indoctrinated ever come to believe in Him).

The human thought process does not use words and its associated definition structures. If you think about this you can see that this is so--when you talk you do not form the words you use until you say them. You do not think them first and then say them--you say them automatically, even though your thoughts may be elsewhere.

This even applies when we speak a language we have learned in adulthood. Sometimes I have to stop and ponder what the English may be for something, but not because I haven't been functioning in English, but because a vocabulary lesson has slipped out of the range of immediate mental access. The same thing happens even in our native tongue.

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#28431 - 11/21/08 06:18 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Thislin]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Quote:

The human thought process does not use words and its associated definition structures. If you think about this you can see that this is so--when you talk you do not form the words you use until you say them. You do not think them first and then say them--you say them automatically, even though your thoughts may be elsewhere.
This is similar to the unconscious approach to God and the Conscious approach to God. The unfortunate approach to God thru belief is that you think about the word God and then you associate the impulses of thought attached to memories of what others have told you over the years of learning and absorbing information that are linked to who you think you are and what reality is.
The ego lives according to programming. It has absorbed words and their meanings from birth. First and foremost is the influence of parental beliefs and ideals. Over half of the human psyche is the voice of our parents, the other is a mixture of peer association, schooling, media and what personality decides to take ownership of. Very little of who we are is original to who we were when we came innocently into this world.
So who and what we are is forgotten, as has the close association to God been lost due to influence of belief and opinion that has been compressed into words and ideas of the ego and its programs.

God has become a belief rather than the experience.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28437 - 11/21/08 11:09 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
God has become a belief rather than the experience.
Interesting point. When I was a theist, 'God' was a belief. Since--building on theism, which I respect--I became a unitheist: GOD is an experience--and a truly liberating experience.

BTW, it is possible for any open-minded person to experience GOD.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28438 - 11/22/08 01:06 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Being open minded and saturated in ego does not give one the experience of God, tho identification with an experience and an identity labeled as God is common.
Lots of people think they experience God because they have good experiences. Good experiences do not equal God.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28439 - 11/22/08 04:43 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Being open minded and saturated in ego does not give one the experience of God ...
So true, TT!!! I am so happy that you realize this. Good for you!!!

I always suggest to people dealing with an ego problem: Please read the Sermon on the Mount, especially Matt. 7:1-12; Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 13. I found reading it very helpful. It works, even for those of us who are not at the genius level. It also helps in the development of a sense of community.

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#28440 - 11/22/08 05:33 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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A friend from www.redefinegod.com sent me information about
METAPSYCHIATRY
Founded by the Dr. Thomas Hora.

He said, "I relate very closely to his concepts of reality:

Having observed, first-hand, that orthodox forms of treatment did not always bring healing to the ills of mankind, he sought to obtain a deeper understanding of the issues which, in turn, led him to spiritual literature. From this point, until the birth of Metapsychiatry in 1977, Dr. Hora's spiritual quest was in full bloom. His search encompassed the study of various theosophies, of existentialism and phenomenology, and of the sacred texts of Zen, Taoism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity...."

Quote:
THE ELEVEN PRINCIPLES OF METAPSYCHIATRY

1. Thou shalt have no other interests before the good of God, which is spiritual blessedness.

2. Take no thought for what should be or what should not be; seek ye first to know the good of God, which already is.

3. There is no interaction anywhere, there is only Omniaction everywhere.

4. Yes is good, but no is also good.

5. God helps those who let Him.

6. If you know what, you know how.

7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.

8. Problems are lessons designed for our edification.

9. Reality cannot be experienced or imagined; it can, however, be realized.

10. The understanding of what really is, abolishes all that seems to be.

11. Do not show your pearls to unreceptive minds, for they will demean them.

— Thomas Hora
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28442 - 11/22/08 08:56 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking


I always suggest to people dealing with an ego problem: Please read the Sermon on the Mount, especially Matt. 7:1-12; Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 13. I found reading it very helpful. It works, even for those of us who are not at the genius level. It also helps in the development of a sense of community.

The ego cannot resolve itself of itself.
Which is why Jesus spoke in parables for those who would hear and see.

No amount of reading frees the intellect from ego no matter how clear the information. The best you get is an enlightened ego. A Parrot that speaks principles laid out for humanity to discover when ego no longer serves one to remain self absorbed in self proclamation and Self aggrandizement.

The intellect must reside within the absolute to free itself of ego, not spin the intellect with definitions and meanings.

In the Upanishads the texts of enlightenment it is said reading scripture, meditation or immersing the intellect in the absolute, and guidance (surrounding yourself with enlightened company) is the path to liberation. The ego cannot free itself from ego nor does it commit suicide. One ascends ego by rising above the limits of definition thru the immersion into the unlimited. Like turning on a light in a dark room to vanquish the shadows.

These were the principles of the Teachings of Jesus as he taught his disciples to come to self Realization.
He slammed the Pharisees for playing up the intellect and parroting words without having immersed themselves in the absolute God.

From Immersion and stabilized awareness of God in everything one lives in the world but not of it.
Good becomes irrelevant in its dual meanings of ego to the Good or absolute perfection in the creation of the manifest as the laws of Karma are concerned.
The world is a stage and all manifestations are projections of belief and ideals. When fear and judgment of reality inhabits the intellect it works to correct the manifest rather than to correct the vision in the personal which sees reality as a distortion of Love or God.

This is how the ego comes to know Good in evil. By labeling it God rather than experiencing God in evil. It then stands in evil and turns a blind eye to reality by pretending it's all God not knowing when to get involved or not to get involved.


Judgment when seen thru Unity such as Jesus Judged was of clear perception. When he spoke of non judgment he spoke of the reality that ego cannot judge because of attachment and misperception of reality. But when Jesus cast judgment he said, "My Judgment is True." So the ego would not recognize judgment coming from the clear vessel as anything other than ego.
God sees God, Ego sees Ego. Same as Consciousness sees Consciousness. Or Water sees and experiences itself as water regardless of what state it appears, be it gaseous, liquid or solid.

Without enlightened guidance the ego cannot judge between illusion and reality on its own.

As a result of these truths all communities derived of intellect fail and wither because of the underlying separation that exists in the individual of belief and opinion. No matter how hard one tries to come to democratic union and agreement by trying to force the intellect to drop judgment and behave in a particular kind of way, the nervous system filled with the stresses of belief, fear and opinions cannot contain energies for very long without exploding into emotional expression.

To free the intellect one must optimize the intellect by removing all stress from the nervous system. If it isn't done stress eats away at the body creating disease and aging of the body.

Few have studied the teachings of the Masters to discover the path to liberation. Many read highlights, take what they will to match their ideals and then project themselves into a picture they believe is free of ego and the immersion into God.

As I've said before. A brain surgeon could easily pick out a brain surgeon wannabe from a practiced surgeon. So can an enlightened nervous system detect a self proclaimed enlightened wannabe.


10. The understanding of what really is, abolishes all that seems to be. Or said another way, The understanding of truth and reality allows one to recognize false prophets without any difficulty.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28445 - 11/23/08 01:11 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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BTW, since some of us do not find it all that easy get the drift of what "they" are trying to say, would it be too much to ask popes J and/or TT: Would you give us some of the names of the books, writers and authorities that you respect and think of as your mentors? Or is this too much of a secret?

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#28446 - 11/23/08 05:56 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BTW, since I do not find it all that easy get the drift of what you are trying to say, would it be too much to ask TT: Would you give me some of the names of the books, writers and authorities that you respect and think of as your mentors?

I experience the Christ/Consciousness as my mentor and Teacher in body and in Spirit. In other words I had a physical Teacher who led me to discover the same voice that spoke thru him that speaks in me. The "I and my Father are One" kinda thing...

All Books are subject to comprehension.
But I could list a few examples of conscious works.

"The life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East" By Baird Spalding.
"The Door of Everything" By Ruby Nelson
"Ascension" by MSI
Swami Venkatesananda's "Vasishtas Yoga" A text to bring one into Unified Consciousness once one has a stabilized experience of the Absolute.
"The principle Upanishads" by Sri Radhakrishnanan
"The Upanishads" by Sri Aurobindo
"A course in Miracles."
"The Bible" Only if you have a clear experience of Unity Consciousness otherwise the meanings are distorted.
"Patanjali's Yoga Sutras" A New Translation and commentary by MSI
"The Bhagavad Gita" A New Translation and commentary By Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
"God Talks with Arjuna" The Bhagavad Gita by Paramahansa Yogananda
"THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THE RESURRECTION OF THE CHRIST WITHIN YOU" by Paramahansa Yogananda A commentary to the scripture of the Bible and Teachings of Jesus
"Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramahansa Yogananda
"The Holy Science" by Swami Sri Yukteswar
"The Aquarian Age Gospel of Jesus," the Christ of the Piscean Age
Transcribed by Levi H. Dowling

To name just a few...

Again a reminder, Literature written by Sages is pretty much useless without awareness of the absolute, for they have little or no meaning to the ego.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28448 - 11/23/08 11:26 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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TT, it looks like that, over the years, I have read some of the same kinds of literature you have. Thanks for the list.

For example, in 1985-1986, with a group led by one who chose to, "become a teacher of God"--as it states on page 3 of the MANUAL FOR TEACHERS, I spent a whole year, under his leadership, looking into what the course teaches.

After we learned about who created the course, and how it began, we learned about such things as the following:

1. The fundamental "distinction between the real and the unreal."
2. The child-like nature of the ego.
3. Sin is defined as "lack of love."... "a mistake to be corrected" ... "rather than an evil to be punished."
4. The role of the body as an instrument of perception.
5. The role of the Spirit with us, which Christians call Christ.
6. The purpose of forgiveness this side of Heaven, where there are no prisoners of guilt, where we remember and become one with GOD.

Then starting with Chapter
1. THE MEANING OF MIRACLES, we went on to Chapter
31. THE FINAL VISION.

Over the year, we all came to the understanding that, eventually, we will all be required to complete the real course, the course of LIFE. How long we take to do it will be up to us. The peace of mind, the peace of GOD is, eventually there for all who choose to receive it.

This and other, books like it, including the Bible, the Koran, the Gita, the works of James, Weatherhead, Fosdick, Jung, Frankl, Maslow, Rogers, Parker, Erickson and numerous others like it have been my companions for decades ...

BTW, from among the many marginal notes I made in my text the follow three stand out: We need to take note of and "observe the self observing the ego and its creation, the body.";
"We are one with GOD...." The I added, "unitheism?".
Today I could add, "newtheism". Or even, "nowtheism".
In GOD, there is no separation, only oneness.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28449 - 11/23/08 11:53 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I spent a whole year looking into what the course teaches.

Over the year, we all came to the understanding that, eventually, we will all be required to complete the real course, the course of LIFE. How long we take to do it will be up to us.

This and other, books like it, including the Bible, the Koran, the Gita, the works of James, Weatherhead, Fosdick, Jung, Frankl, Maslow, Rogers, Parker, Erickson and numerous others like it have been my companions for decades ...


You're absolutely right about how long it takes being up to you.
Having companions for lifetimes, spending time looking into things isn't quite the same thing as doing it, is it.

I find that what my teacher said regarding the fact that 99% of the books on this planet could be burned without having any adverse affects to be quite true.
The ego bases its limitations on boundaries of accumulated knowledge never setting itself free.
One need only take the mind beyond circumscribed descriptions of God and immerse ones awareness in God to supercede any limited descriptions referenced in the written word.
It is only by availing ourselves to a greater wisdom that we begin to leave limitation and ignorance behind. Such wisdom cannot be contained in a book. And when it comes to learning how to speak with God there is no help like help that has both wisdom and experience to reveal how limited the intellect is on its own, when it decides to make belief and opinion the standard for determining wisdom and Omniscience.

One can spend lifetimes taking the mind outward into definitions of reality that the ego sees and never come close to any experience of God. Yet spend a few months or years taking the mind inward and God becomes the only reality.
Pity so many waste their years thinking they know something of God when they know nothing.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28450 - 11/24/08 12:16 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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BTW, TT, how have you enjoyed the COURSE OF LIFE (Miracles) thus far? Or do I detect a kind of sadness?

I can sincerely say, I have.

Thus having enjoyed every minute--even the painful ones--of the search for truth and reality I have had thus far, now I consciously choose to spend what time I have left in this dimension--I am approaching 80--to building on the foundation of GOD, which is Love--the simple ability to will that which is good for the world, others and the self. Surely, this is not too difficult a task for most decent human beings, is it? Unless they are utterly bitter and totally cynical about life.

Posters, and readers: How do you practice the art of LOVING? Or does your ego tempt you to give in to being bitter and cynical?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28451 - 11/24/08 02:07 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT, how have you enjoyed the COURSE OF LIFE (Miracles) thus far?
I can sincerely say, I have.

I could tell you enjoyed calling me names, and I can tell you enjoy certain things over others rather than all things with equal value. And I can also tell that you have yet to reach a depth of peace that passes all of your understandings with opinion and Ideals and all of your enjoyments.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

How do you practice the art of LOVING? Or does your ego tempt you to give in to being bitter and cynical?
You tempt me quite often but as you can see it does not sway me from the truth. wink
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28452 - 11/24/08 03:12 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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What names did my EGO call you?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28455 - 11/24/08 07:56 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
What names did my EGO call you?
Non that are of any importance or consequence. You loosely apply labels to yourself as you do to me with equal enjoyment.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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