Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21,

Posted by: Revlgking

Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 10/29/08 01:22 PM

"Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21,
====================================
Making no claim that I am an expert, the following is part of my attempt to understand and summarize the ideas of Eckhart Tolle and what he says about evil. Who are aware of his work?

My dictionary defines it as an Old English word for that which is morally bad; wrong, sinful and wicked. Synonyms are iniquitous, depraved, vicious, corrupt, harmful, pernicious, bad--the kind of harmful and painful things we too often do to others and to ourselves. It also includes what are called natural disasters and calamities.

In my opinion (IMO)--an opener which I often like to use--and without claiming that all of what I write is original with me: much that we experience as evil arises in the unconscious mind and in nature unconscious of itself. Evil becomes sin when we do it consciously and make no attempt to make amends and refuse to check our ego.

With the above in mind, let's dialogue about the nature of evil and what we can do about it.


Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 10/29/08 04:20 PM

Romans 12:21 is preceded by information (Romans 12:1 thru 12:20) regarding the nature of Christ consciousness and Union with God or the Experience of God in awareness within ones Self/self and everything one experiences. And it also covers the effects of Karma or cause and effect. (vengeance is mine sayeth the lord) Evil or wicked action being action of Ego creating repetitive lifetimes of reoccurring experiences based on the limited realization of reality until one discovers the Truth to end the cycle of ignorance.
It (enlightenment) is the very prerequisite to overcoming evil (EGO), and the only way to (As stated in 12:21) to be not of evil but to overcome evil with good.

That would be what Tolle means by being aware of the underlying current of reality, and evil
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 10/29/08 05:06 PM

Sounds reasonable to me, TT.

Keep in mind that when I speak of holding out the possibility of anyone being a law-abiding and morally-good and humane person I am not calling for that person to strive to be, exclusively, a Christian and Bible-believing saint. IMO, Christianity is not the one and only way to truth. BTW, I say the same thing to all religions: Please, let us not exclude anyone willing to work for the highest good.

As we dialogue about what it means to be good, moral, ethical and law-abiding people I hope we can include ALL religions and all non-theists and secularists--anyone with the same goal in mind-- in on the discussion. Most atheists I have met appear to want the same kind of just and peaceful society that I do. This is why it my intention to be totally inclusive.

Posted by: KarmaMagnet

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/02/08 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
"Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21,
====================================
Making no claim that I am an expert, the following is part of my attempt to understand and summarize the ideas of Eckhart Tolle and what he says about evil. Who are aware of his work?

My dictionary defines it as an Old English word for that which is morally bad; wrong, sinful and wicked. Synonyms are iniquitous, depraved, vicious, corrupt, harmful, pernicious, bad--the kind of harmful and painful things we too often do to others and to ourselves. It also includes what are called natural disasters and calamities.

In my opinion (IMO)--an opener which I often like to use--and without claiming that all of what I write is original with me: much that we experience as evil arises in the unconscious mind and in nature unconscious of itself. Evil becomes sin when we do it consciously and make no attempt to make amends and refuse to check our ego.

With the above in mind, let's dialogue about the nature of evil and what we can do about it.




I think the dangerous thing about evil, is the notion that we [the human race] have become so accustomed to it, that many people have accepted that evil is inherent to our nature. In not challenging that notion, we choose to take no action and indirectly or directly, condone and excuse past present and future evil actions; personal or otherwise.

The notion that the nature of humans intrinsically evil is one I directly oppose, in fact I think the opposite is true; that our basic nature is intrinsically good.

Like many other facets of human nature, we must challenge first our own tendency to accept evil thoughts, words and deeds, and then if necessary, those of the people around us, & anyone else we come into contact with.

Other than that, I'm not sure "what we can do about it", but having a discussion about it is a good starting point.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/02/08 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: KarmaMagnet


The notion that the nature of humans intrinsically evil is one I directly oppose, in fact I think the opposite is true; that our basic nature is intrinsically good.

If this is true then evil is a misnomer. If humanity is intrinsically good then good must also be in everything humanity does. One only need rise above the illusion of evil to see it.
Originally Posted By: KarmaMagnet

Like many other facets of human nature, we must challenge first our own tendency to accept evil thoughts, words and deeds, and then if necessary, those of the people around us, & anyone else we come into contact with.

That is the basis of enlightenment. Evil is an illusion of duality, where Good has a counterpart that is evil. When one rids themselves of the attachment to duality, vision of True reality reveals the nature of humanity and all that has a purpose in reflecting the nature of who we are.

"Sin" or "evil" (as described by Jesus, which was part and parcel to the Teachings of "The Christ" within humanity and the content of the New Testament of the Bible), is an illusion of perception rooted in the ego as a belief.
Once one situates the mind in the "Truth" of the "Self," evil/illusion/fear becomes transparent and without a foothold to distract the mind from its inherent nature.
Posted by: KarmaMagnet

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/02/08 07:08 PM

I know, and agree; although I am not a Christian- not that that is relevant anyway, but like the O.P., I'm curious as to what, if anything we can "do about it".
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/02/08 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: KarmaMagnet
I know, and agree; although I am not a Christian- not that that is relevant anyway, but like the O.P., I'm curious as to what, if anything we can "do about it".
Heal yourself and you heal the world.
Everyone has the Christ within, Christianity as it appears in religious boundaries is belief. Who we are is not limited by belief, but rather it is belief that limits who we are and constrains the unlimited.
All of what we see is a reflection of what we hold within ourselves as relative truth. Like a mirror, if it is not clear there is no clear reflection. If you wipe the mirror clear of belief what is seen is the underlying nature of the Self.

You don't clear the mirror by trying to alter the reflection, but by clearing the illusions that create the reflection of evil.

There is nothing to do, but to clear the mind of the illusions of evil in the first place, and let the light of True reality come forth from within.

What we do about "it" in other words is nothing. What we do is the cause of "it". What we "do not", to not create "it" is come from Christed consciousness.
(Jn 10:30 "I and my Father are one.")
It is the ego that does. It is the Christ or Higher Self that does not, and by its nature absorbs and exudes all that was, is and ever will be.

Jn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


That is the nature of the Absolute. That is the nature of humanity as a reflection of the absolute.
Humanity as a reflection of ego is a misperception of the reflection of humanity and is evil in a nutshell.
We see what we want to see not necessarily what we can see.
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/04/08 11:27 PM

Would it not be difficult to assume that good will overpower evil without that annoying thing that I find very impotant-- defining terms?

What is Good? What is Evil? In fact is there any such thing in an absolute as good or absolute evil? It is interesing to reflect always that 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. When I was little more than a baby my country was involved in a war and the order was given to firebomb Dresden. Thousands of people, including innocent little children, as I was then, died that night. The whole thing was seen as a reason for rejoicing, it was "right" and "good" ---- now, 60 years later, I have seen it described as "evil".

Because eventually we often seem to come to our senses I agree with KarmaMagnet when he states:

"The notion that the nature of humans intrinsically evil is one I directly oppose, in fact I think the opposite is true; that our basic nature is intrinsically good."

Quite honestly I don't know how you would keep going if you did not feel that this was true. However I do not think that it is good overcoming evil, I think that we would prefer to make a choice on the assumption that good will come from it. Unfortunately though that is the rationale for firebombing Dresden. Philosophically it is a circular debate!

How do you deal with this paradox TT? I suspect you will say that it is a reflection of the ego not the absolute. But would not the absolute have to include all the contradictions? Are they not part of the true reality?

Posted by: redewenur

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/05/08 01:14 AM

Ellis: "Would it not be difficult to assume that good will overpower evil without that annoying thing that I find very important-- defining terms?"

I'll put these ideas to you for consideration:

What we humans recognise as good and evil are cosmic principles that are manifested through such sentient beings as are capable of the concept.

In a cosmos devoid of sentient beings, there would be nothing capable of holding those concepts. In that case the principles would remain unrealised.

Where there is a sentient being capable of such a concept, the concept is related to events that are either conducive or detrimental to the quality of its own existence and continued existence.

Such a being may be capable of inferring that what they recognise as good or evil is equally so to a similar sentient being - demonstrated by "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you".
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/05/08 02:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis


How do you deal with this paradox TT? I suspect you will say that it is a reflection of the ego not the absolute. But would not the absolute have to include all the contradictions? Are they not part of the true reality?


Not as they appear to the individual and the attachment to values.
If you can remain objective enough to experience the multidimensional aspects of reality you can witness the possibility in action as being something or nothing at all.
It all depends on how invested you are in the activity.

If you have kids and have watched them get upset over something you thought wasn't worth getting upset over, you might have (from your objective point of detachment) offered your point of view so as to turn the childs mind toward something completely different than the anxiety, fear, or emotional investment he/she had in whatever was happening that drew their attention toward the emotional experience.
We've all experienced events in which a person, perhaps a friend or relative suffered as it seemed a very contrasting experience where they were extremely upset, and because we were not so invested in the experience only imagined how they were suffering in their emotional distress.
Logically we can come to the conclusion that since not everyone feels the same about something it is not the thing,(the experience or event) that creates the suffering but the personal association to it.
When you think about the bombing of Dresden and the suffering people of the city, for those that weren't old enough to have been alive during the time it is only a story in the history of a country that either you have familiarity with or not. A story in the History books.
But for the survivors of the bombing, those that had a direct experience it may be a strong imprint in the memory. Perhaps they still suffer with the memory, perhaps they have let it go and are no longer afflicted with the thought.

Perspective comes from the point of reference of the observer.
In expanded states of consciousness it is possible to witness not only the observer but the experience within ones self. There is the observer, the one experiencing and the object of perception.
We experience the experience of past as thought and the idea of the future as thought. What we do not always recognize in the present moment is the activity and experience is thought as well.
Especially if we are invested in it, or it is owned by the ego.

It's one thing to feel and another to become the feelings. By becoming the feelings we lose perspective or objectivity of the observer, the experiencer and the experienced.

By reacting to experience and becoming immersed in feelings we often do not see the entire experience for what it is and place unnecessary judgment upon it.
Good and bad then becomes relative to emotional attachment and without objectivity we do not always see the outcome or corresponding possibility of good that comes out of what we experience as bad. We only get lost in the judgment.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/05/08 02:12 AM

Quote:
What is Good? What is Evil?
Ellis asks.

Simple: IMO, evil is anything--small, medium or large--that causes physical, mental or spiritual hurt, or pain, to self and/or others.

If it is done, unconsciously, we need to be willing to look for the underlying cause and, consciously, choose to do something about it. If it is done, consciously, we need to repent and stop doing it. Otherwise it goes on and on and on, ad infinitum--a living hell.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/05/08 05:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
What is Good? What is Evil?
Ellis asks.

Simple: IMO, evil is anything--small, medium or large--that causes physical, mental or spiritual hurt, or pain, to self and/or others.


Correct. Evil is the result of Sin, or errant thinking.
However, there is nothing one can do to change the necessity of life to incorporate evil in the development of personal awareness as a contrast to perfection in all aspects of creation. It is part of free will. Sometimes one has to prick the finger to realize pain, so as to know the difference between pleasure and pain.
In contrast to differing states of conscious awareness, (being conscious and unconscious) realizing the many as one may take a different course of events and experiences. The ego and its definition of consciousness is relative to the body. Where as consciousness of the Soul is not restricted by anything physical.
So being conscious from the enlightened perspective, or being in the now is without the conditioning of the body and the multiplicity of the separation of consciousness into the idea of "we." There is only Now and that "NOW" is "ONE" above and beyond any personal opinion.

Opinions are only created from the ego, and are personal due to the separation of the "NOW" from the Soul/GOD Self.
It (ego and opinion) is what creates evil, sees evil and maintains evil.
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/06/08 02:12 AM

TT wrote:

"When you think about the bombing of Dresden and the suffering people of the city, for those that weren't old enough to have been alive during the time it is only a story in the history of a country that either you have familiarity with or not. A story in the History books."

Here we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think that there should ever come a time when we can detach ourselves from events like the Dresden bombings to the extent that we can say it is only history. It is when we are able to do that that we will be likely to repeat the offence. We need to understand the dual nature of all acts. Nothing is purely good, nothing is purely evil. It depends on the way it is interpreted. Deliberate acts of cruelty can, and are, still defended as necessary for the greatest good.

TT-It's this duality that is the problem, and I personally don't feel that an 'enlightened perspective' of the problem comes within a bull's roar of suggesting a solution.

Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/06/08 04:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT wrote:

"When you think about the bombing of Dresden and the suffering people of the city, for those that weren't old enough to have been alive during the time it is only a story in the history of a country that either you have familiarity with or not. A story in the History books."

Here we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think that there should ever come a time when we can detach ourselves from events like the Dresden bombings to the extent that we can say it is only history.

Whether you agree with the statement or not is a moot point. How you feel about it will not change the way others feel about it, nor will it ever dictate the way people will choose to feel about such things whether immersed in the actual experience, or hearing of it as it is passed on from generation to generation by the emotionally distressed individual or the unemotional context of a history book.
To this day, some believe the Holocaust of the Nazi extermination camps never really happened, and there is nothing that will convince them no matter how emotional or determined one might choose to be. So whether you agree or disagree that this is happening doesn't change the fact that it does.
It is unfortunate that these things often repeat themselves for the very reason that people do not understand the consequences of their own choices.
When we are unable to understand how deep choice resonates within the cause and effect of creation we are likely to repeat the offense until we awaken to reality.
Originally Posted By: Ellis

We need to understand the dual nature of all acts. Nothing is purely good, nothing is purely evil. It depends on the way it is interpreted. Deliberate acts of cruelty can, and are, still defended as necessary for the greatest good.

The ability to understand the complete nature of any experience or manifestation within creation requires the greatest objectivity. Any defense is going to be subject to what one hears or is able to hear.
Sometimes the energy to move forward is created by drawing the self backward to build a momentum to clear obstacles that create confusion. Like drawing an arrow backward before it can be propelled forward, our history is testimony to decisions made with consequence. Humanity is filled with differing levels of comprehension and as some graduate into greater awareness others are just coming to the classroom, and for those it may be necessary to whip out those lessons that create the greatest impetus to move forward.
It might be interesting to note the things that have been discovered within humanity in that last 2000 years. Sciences have made great advances toward the appreciation and understanding of the mechanics of the universe, but man still struggles with its place within it all.

Now man can destroy itself on a global scale. If it does, it may just recreate itself in another billion years or so. It wouldn't be the first time its happened on this planet, or any other inhabited by human life forms.
Whatever it takes for the evolving soul, the nature of the universe is always pliable enough to accommodate.
Originally Posted By: Ellis

TT-It's this duality that is the problem, and I personally don't feel that an 'enlightened perspective' of the problem comes within a bull's roar of suggesting a solution.


More often than not, from the "enlightened perspective" there is no problem, only opportunity.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/06/08 02:47 PM

Quote:
We need to understand the dual nature of all acts. Nothing is purely good, nothing is purely evil.
Good point Ellis. This is probably true when one looks at individual acts.

However, what about our intentions? Can agape/Love--the sincere intention, or will, to do that which is best, even if we fail to do the perfect deed--ever be any degree of evil. In my opinion, no.

And what about misos/Hate--the intention to take revenge, get even, pay back? IMO, hate, in any degree, is devoid of any kind of redemptive value. No wonder that Jesus equated hate with murder.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/06/08 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


However, what about our intentions? Can agape/Love--the sincere intention, or will, to do that which is best, even if we fail to do the perfect deed--ever be any degree of evil. In my opinion, no.

The most obvious answer is that if one is not immersed within the universal flow of God, but instead of ego and belief, Love is limited within the confines of ego's beliefs and best projections.

Here is an example.
Jesus and the Pharisees.
Jesus often claimed the Pharisees interpreted the words of Moses and scripture falsely, thereby trying to increase God and God's Love in everyone's awareness through personal belief rather than actual experience in universal awareness.
They (The Pharisees) also claimed this awareness could only be understood by certain people, and that these chosen few were only qualified to interpret God correctly for all. Their decree was that this privilege was God given thru special birth or family lineage and not given to everyone.

With so many people following their own ideas and going in different directions it has the obvious results of chaos. The masses became subservient to the self proclaimed authority that the Pharisees preached to the ignorant, and the ignorant withdrew even further into protection of their private beliefs for fear of losing themselves and God.

Jesus' Self proclaimed authority was from the immersion of Awareness in God, and it enlivened those he touched with inner knowledge and awareness of Truth that was more than relative belief. Jesus proclaimed the only thing that kept one from not knowing God was the ego, and that anyone who would rise above its limited boundaries could awaken to reality.

The Pharisees took from the people and gave nothing but rules which maintained Their authority over the people and the limitations of individuality.

Jesus Gave only love in Truth absolute and expanded Authority of the One universal Mind within everyone.

The subtlety of differences that is the authority of individual, and authority within individuality, is that One is owned, and the other unites all as ONE. One is personal and filled with opinion and the other is non personal and lives within the personal and always speaks in flow with the NOW.

History has presented us with religious leaders, who by their self decree of being in union with God, believed in having the best and most loving intentions for all of humanity and the best qualities to represent God, Good intention, and Love for all of humanity. These are/were reflections of individual opinion.

Obviously these leaders have either stood out for their actual immersion into selfless service and God, or passed in and amongst the personal opinions of ego and belief and drifted off into obscurity.(mostly the latter)
Even those who are known for having helped many, have suffered the consequence of personal opinion, greed and inappropriate actions when confronted with truth universal.(Jim Jones and David Koresh the most recent, The Cardinals and Archbishops during the crusades and Spanish inquisition in the memorable past.)

Today God has a bad rap, religion is a bad word and all because ego in its best intentions to do good has failed to convince anyone of anything but to remain independent in ones own beliefs and superstitions, suspicious of anything that might take away personal belief to establish awareness of Unity in Truth universal.

People love to love only if it does not threaten personal opinion and the ego.

Perpetuation of ignorance in the name of love and goodness is just as evil as deliberate subterfuge.
We just like to (from the ego) create degrees of separation so that we can covet our own personal reality with the idea that we are righteous in our ignorance of Universal Truth.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

And what about misos/Hate--the intention to take revenge, get even, pay back? IMO, hate, in any degree, is devoid of any kind of redemptive value. No wonder that Jesus equated hate with murder.

Jesus also saw Hate as Twisted Love, and often granted redemption thru forgiveness or thru greater awareness in the understanding of reality.
His compassion was born of omniscient wisdom and the intuition to discern whether mortal judgment came from innocent belief and misinterpretation of reality, or from greed, personal aggrandizement, and personal investment.
He spoke harshly to evil, and he also spoke lovingly to evil in the ego that was misdirected where the heart was wide open to repent and enliven truth over illusion of the ego.

His intuitive sense was finely tuned to the universal flow and was able to give what was needed to enhance growth in everyone, even if it was to initiate what seemed to be a move backwards, as was the case when he sent Judas out to manifest the choice to turn Jesus over to the authorities. He knew the Karmic repercussions it would create in Judas to make that choice, but he also knew he could not take that choice from Judas.

Evil is misunderstood, as is Love and God, from the ego.

Without the Union of the un-manifest/absolute and the manifest/God in the awareness, reality is only an opinion. All best intentions within the reality of personal opinion are subject to limitations of belief rather than the immersion into the unbounded NOW or Universal Consciousness.

Jesus was willing to sacrifice the material world (his own body) for the greater mind that was not limited by material beliefs and desires, which was evident when he surrendered himself to the crucifixion.
The ego sacrifices nothing of its physical needs for it believes the transitional physical reality to be greater than that which created it in the first place. Reason is, the ego does not have any familiarity with the Universal mind, the NOW or spirit.

So Good and evil are created of material values that are of the ego world, or those things which will perpetuate the senses needs in comfort and self recognition, and protection of the physical body.

Funnily enough it is this very idea that creates so much diverse conflict of interest and results in stress and deterioration of health and longevity in humans as a species and as a collective mind. With so many fragmented pieces created as parts of a whole and those pieces in constant change in belief, the ongoing attempt to arrange diversity into relative constructs that make sense to everyone, or build relative unity takes more energy than is used to support the whole from Spiritual Union.
We literally wear ourselves out trying to rebuild relative truth into believability.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/06/08 11:41 PM

Quote:
Jesus also saw Hate as Twisted Love ...
Of course it is, TT!

As spiritual beings, we have this amazing power at our beck and call: In any set of circumstances, or situation, we have the power to choose to do spirit (true self)-based good, or mind (ego)-based evil.

It is that simple.

Anyone willing to try an experiment? Try the following: In any set of problematic circumstances do the following: Make your choice to follow your love-based spirit, or your self-centered ego. Then watch and take note of the results you get.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/07/08 12:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
In any set of problematic circumstances do the following: Make your choice to follow your love-based spirit, or your self-centered ego. Then watch and take note of the results you get.

How would one know the difference?
If it were that obvious wouldn't humanity automatically make the choice for love?
How does one determine from the ego, how to not be egoic?
If one knows the spirit and Love of God why would the spirit choose anything other than love and spirit?

Are you suggesting that everyone knows the difference and still lives between two poles or bounces from one to the other unconsciously? Or are you suggesting that by sheer determination one can rise above the ego and recognize the Spirit within?

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
The ego tends to confuse knowledge with wisdom--the moral, ethical and loving use of knowledge.

How could the ego become clear?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
AND SPEAKING OF ONENESS:
In my opinion, HOW we perceive the NOW tells us WHO we are.

If the now is perceived from confusion of the ego, what would it tell us about ourselves if we recognize confusion as normal?

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


TT, I think that the big difference between you and me is this: I am not enlightened, yet--and perhaps still quite ignorant of many things. However, I know that I don't know.

If you know that you don't know how would you know "you know" the Spirit Self?
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/07/08 04:00 AM

It is that simple. The problem is: Too often, too many human beings fail to think before they act.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/07/08 04:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
It is that simple. The problem is: Too often, too many human beings fail to think before they act.

Thinking from not knowing doesn't create knowing...

A lot of thinking and planning went into the Holy wars of the Crusades and the Spanish inquisition.

The most obvious contrast for those who have knowledge and experience are people who talk the talk but do not walk the talk.

Your belief that you understand the NOW comes to mind. And that idea you have, actually comes from too much thinking.

I'll use this as a reference to your own belief about yourself, from your experience of the NOW.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Let's get this straight: I KNOW that I have and AM a strong ego. I have never made any claim that I have a "non egoic-inside track to anyone." Like Ellis, I always take an egoic point of view.

This would be the result of too much thinking and the inability to consciously make the choice to come from spirit, but to self measure your self on a personal scale of opinion.

This would be something to take note of, rather than to assume you can thru self determination and personal opinion, pull the NOW and spirit out of a collection of thoughts.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/07/08 03:07 PM

TT, it seems to me that your comments have the appearance that they are coming from an egoic know-it-all.

TT, writes
Quote:
Thinking from not knowing doesn't create knowing...

Here is the message I get: "I, TT, the-wise-one, always think as one who knows it all...I do not have opinions; I have the truth."
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/07/08 05:59 PM


Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT, it seems to me that your comments have the appearance that they are coming from an egoic know-it-all.

TT, writes
Quote:
Thinking from not knowing doesn't create knowing...

Here is the message I get: "I, TT, the-wise-one, always think as one who knows it all...I do not have opinions; I have the truth."





The above response is an egoic reaction. Not the knowing from spirit.

Choose to come from the loving spirit and see if there is a different way to look at it.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/07/08 10:00 PM

Quote:
This would be the result of too much thinking and the inability to consciously make the choice to come from spirit ...
Says TT.

Ellis, does this make any sense to you? The only groups that I know of who avoid thinking are the fundamentalists, of all stripes.
Surely humane, and human, beings are positive thinkers.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/07/08 10:07 PM

TT tells me
Quote:
The above response is an egoic reaction.
TT, of course it is! And I know that it is. Consciously, I chose to do so.

But are you so unconscious, blind and deaf so as not to realize that so are 100% of your comments?

BTW, the moderator has warned you about this, more than once. Are you reading and listening?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/07/08 10:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT tells me
Quote:
The above response is an egoic reaction.
TT, of course it is! And I know that it is. Consciously, I chose to do so.

That is of course why I commented on the ability to recognize the difference and make choices. Obviously this is the kind of choice you know and prefer.
You consciously chose to limit yourself and me by doing so. Why you would do that is for you shrouded in either mystery or excuse.
It is not something I would do, and I recognize the symptoms because I have a familiarity with Teaching those who wish to know the difference between the ego and spirit.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

But are you so unconscious, blind and deaf so as not to realize that so are 100% of your comments?

Are you saying this is the truth, this your opinion, or have you suddenly decided that you have gotten over not knowing everything?

There is a big difference in being conscious while standing in spirit and conscious while standing in ego.
One is tapped into memory and limits of belief. The other is tapped into omniscience and is what is called Christed Conscious awareness. One is ego and the other is the NOW.
One sees and experiences separation of humanity in individuality and and separation of humanity with God. And the other always sees ONE universal mind in action and all as the same God.
One might believe all is connected, the other experiences it 24/7 in all thought, action and awareness as the only true reality.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

BTW, the moderator has warned you about this, more than once. Are you reading and listening?

You're implying the moderator doesn't tolerate clarification..
I simply used your own statements so you could gain clarification of where you choose to stand.
You say one thing and do another.
How do you recognize the difference between standing in spirit and ego when you don't know spirit and you consistently refer to your position in the ego?

It was a simple question. You made the statement it was easy, but so far you haven't demonstrated any ability. You only repeat your position of being in the ego by self admission and by action and reaction to my question, stamping the label upon your forehead, and insisting I wear your label too.

Talking the talk is such a different thing than walking it.

Anybody can tell the difference between hot and cold, with a stable experience of the two. But not everyone can tell the difference between one thing and another if the topic of discussion is only an opinion or a belief.

One would have to know the topic, the subjects in question, they would have to be real, and person would have to master a stable experience of both before one could make any reference to either with any clarity.

So far you only state opinions and they are constantly changing.

Furthermore you get awfully upset if anyone makes a statement that is not followed with the qualifying, "This is my opinion" so that all are equally without any real knowledge and experience in equal inferiority.

My idea of reality doesn't follow those guidelines.

I don't think the moderator has a problem with scientifically or theoretically establishing the differences between relative and absolute truths, but I do think the one you keep running to every time you get upset would probably get tired of you whining about your inability to control the conversation when it doesn't go the way you want it to.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/08/08 09:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Surely humane, and human, beings are positive thinkers.
Hitler was positive the Jews should be exterminated, and he was destined to lead the world into a new order ruled by the master race. All of Germany who supported this theme thought positively about the goal to take control of the world.

The allies thought positively the man was insane and felt no discordance with bombing Large cities and killing civilians any more than Hitlers Third Reich gave much thought to killing civilians if it got into a pissing contest about who was going to be the stronger.


Being positive is multi-dimensionally determined at differing levels of intelligence and spiritual development.

Thought based on inferior knowledge of reality does not produce greater results by thinking more often about illusions created from belief and lack of knowledge. Our most brilliant men endeavored to satisfy the need to split the atom and destroy hundreds of thousands of lives and irradiate the land making it unsafe to inhabit for the good of humanity.

Relative ideas of the ego and spirit taught from the egoic intellect and the corresponding books written by humane individuals no matter how docile and unassuming, are still fantasy when conjured from the imagination if they are not directly lived from the experience of having overcome the limitations of the ego and having transmuted the illusions of ego to live directly from spirit.
This was the essence of Jesus' teachings, and the pharisees called him a know it all, and a heretic. They called on Pontius Pilate to moderate his teachings and to silence him from speaking by Exterminating his life.
Pilate wasn't too keen on this idea but was forced into satisfying a discordant majority swayed by superstition for fear of losing his position and self esteem as an authoritative figure. Jesus was tried and executed by the laws and beliefs of the ego bound Pharisees, because Pilate was afraid to lose face.

“Be still and know that I am God.” -- Psalms 46:10


After 2000 years some things haven't changed.
Righteousness is still defined by thinkers who choose to live and identify with belief and opinion rather than live by the spirit.
This self defined humane human or ego is what Jesus called the "Son of Man."
What he came to inspire within the Son of Man, was the spirit within to transform the "Son of Man" into the "Son of God."

Fundamentalist thinkers are both religious and non-religious. They base everything on the majority rule of accepted belief in reality even if it is incorrect. Man still hasn't progressed far enough from the earth is flat mentality to have emerged from the ego to understand Spirit and spirituality. Egoic man still wants God to live within his rules, and anyone associated with God to comply with the opinion of relative belief.

It doesn't matter if your biography is a book of self proclaimed accomplishments believed to be righteous by Websters definitions or a two volume world dictionary.
Defining spirit within egoic confines still doesn't do justice to its presence.


If one wants to overcome evil as described in Romans 12.
One would necessarily have to overcome the inability to come from spirit in the making of continuously limited conscious choices to choose to stand in the ego.

To think one would choose for the ego while being conscious of spirit would be the example of Evil.

It would be more believable to think one would claim to make conscious choices to stand in ego and express from ego because the claimant has no familiarity with anything else.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/08/08 03:11 PM

TT
Quote:
I don't think the moderator has a problem with scientifically or theoretically establishing the differences between relative and absolute truths, but I do think the one you keep running to every time you get upset would probably get tired of you whining about your inability to control the conversation when it doesn't go the way you want it to.
Now, I am not only guilty of positive thinking--which I have always assumed is a good thing to do--I am also accused of controlling the conversation! What a big LAUGH!!!! laugh laugh The typical blame-the-victim ploy.

BTW posters, speaking of control: Take a look at the last number of TT's mostly unclear posts. Need I say more? smile

From this point on, without lecturing others on how to "think" correctly and how to get it spiritually correct, I choose to stick to the topic at hand and the discussion of ideas. I will ignore all else.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/08/08 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


From this point on, without lecturing others on how to "think" correctly and how to get it spiritually correct, I choose to stick to the topic at hand and the discussion of ideas.

Well that would be grand, however if you don't understand the topic of discussion it would be difficult to have an idea that was clear.
As I said before, to try and pull the absolute or spirit out of a basket of ideas is a hit or miss proposition. If you don't know what your looking for in the first place how do you recognize it?


You still haven't answered that question.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

I will ignore all else.

That might be part of your problem. The inability to learn anything new is due to the constant ignoring of anything that doesn't fit into the box of the ego. Insisting the world change to fit into the box, ignoring the vast possibilities of reality and forcing the world to be a certain way is like putting blinders on a horse. Only a certain type of vision is created; without the ability to peripherally absorb the entire picture the mind is limited and isolated in belief and narrow vision.

The horse or "mind" in this case, ceases to be a mind and instead a tool, manipulated by rules created by the master which in this scenario is the ego.

Sometimes an old dog is unwilling, rather than unable to learn new tricks.....
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Take a look at the last number of TT's mostly unclear posts.

Considering you have made statements to the effect that I am a sociopath, verbose, write long winded posts that you do not understand followed by the insistence that I change my delivery to suit your definitions of reality and have repeatedly claimed that you do not read my posts because because because.... And since you have run to the moderator and repeatedly threatened to run to the moderator every time you get upset, I find it contradictory that you could claim you have anything objective or "from spirit" for that matter, to say anything clearly regarding what I have written.

You're throwing another tantrum Rev.

Try not to live in and from the ego and instead dive into spirit to gain a broader perspective and let's see if something different happens this time.
After all if you want to change the world and remove evil (to stay on topic) one has to understand how one spins evil from the loom of the ego in its thoughts and ideas and how to live differently.

Being able to simply make the choice to change the world would be requisite to the change in ones self and the ability to clearly comprehend reality. If one knows nothing other than the ego and the ego's perception of reality within the duality of Good and Evil, projecting what spirit is like from duality is going to be connected to the ego's best guess of the opposite of evil which is whatever idea is conjured as good.
You can't solve a problem from a level of consciousness in which the problem was created.

Positive thinking includes negative thinking in duality. Whatever one wants to try and maintain is followed by the lurking evil of bad. That is the nature of duality. Positive has its counterpart which is always negative.
From spirit there is no dual nature to reality it is all manifestation of the Absolute ONE spirit eternal.
Coming from that ONE absolute Spirit all is seen as it is, in the isness of the "Now"

“Be still and know that I am God.” -- Psalms 46:10

All wisdom and knowledge comes from the absolute which is met in prayer or deep meditation. When one establishes familiarity with the absolute in constant contact by spending more time with the absolute than the ego one reaches a state called "praying without ceasing."
Like the deep vastness of the Ocean, all that is, was or ever will be rises up to the surface like the waves on the ocean. If one is continually tossed about upon the surface of the ocean knowing nothing but the ideas and thoughts losing familiarity with the ocean and knowing only the waves, one remains in the chatter of thought trying to increase the positive thoughts in and amongst the negative thoughts constantly battling the waves never stabilizing an awareness of the deeper Truth which lay below the waves.

Living and identifying with those ideas is the way of the ego. Without an anchor deep in the ocean of intelligence all concepts of idea and thought, positive ever threatened by the negative, one gets tossed about and bashed between lofty ideals and the fear of isolation and death.

As the waves come and go and the awareness is ever vigilant in the surface activity of the waves the ongoing nature of the ocean remains as new waves are born and die.
Positive and negative come and go, change and mutate in the weather of changing ideas born of identity with surface waves/thoughts and attachments that are the ego.
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/08/08 11:02 PM

TT- are you positive that your own perception of ultimate reality, as described by you in your posts, is the only possible experience for everyone, of that state which is described as reality?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/09/08 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT- are you positive that your own perception of ultimate reality, as described by you in your posts, is the only possible experience for everyone, of that state which is described as reality?

If we use the Olympic stadium as the medium of experience (as you brought up before) how would you measure the depth of experience of the stadium in a person and their familiarity with it?
If you were the designer and builder, had spent months in every corner of its construction process as well as having lived in it upon completion, it would stand to reason that you would have a pretty good grasp of what was in it and what it was like.
Now anyone who spends time in it whether in the construction phase or just visiting it based on individual personality and beliefs is going to absorb it into experience according to that personality.
Those who just see pictures of it will not have the same experience and the resonance may be completely obvious to someone who was intimately familiar with the contact experience and could tell when someone who just experiences pictures and stories about it as opposed to someone who immersed themselves in it.

Experiences change and are never the same.

Even if two people stand side by side and experience the same object or objects of perception they will experience it differently and take with them what each needs from it based on the levels of stress in their nervous system and their level of spiritually conscious awareness.
This comparison is something that has been studied in Twins who grow up in the same house and end up living completely different lives with diverse desires, experiences of the past and their beliefs.
If we go back to the stadium itself, it never changes within the course of its existence other than what is placed on or in it by independent desire to adorn it according to ceremony and circumstance.
It is the same with the Absolute only unlike the absolute the stadium will decay and collapse over time. The absolute remains timeless and never changes or decays.
You can experience the stability in it and everyone who knows it, knows it itself, does not change. The experiences of it do however, for experience is the approach to an object of sensory immersion and return to individual measures of perception.
How one creates the system of measure is how one sizes the object of perception and either creates the idea of infinite or limitation. This takes place differently at different levels of conscious awareness.
As one rises in conscious awareness, systems of measure no longer apply. Knowledge is infinite, rather than finite.

The absolute itself like the stadium is not an experience. One can have an experience of it but not contain it within the experience. Once you approach it and again have another encounter there may be similarities but the experience is different.
In the case of the absolute it can't really be experienced as an object because it is not an object that can be confined or measured as experience, but it is reflected in consciousness as an experience like an image of the moon in a still pond. A knowing if you will when the mind leaves its limitations of the body and immerses itself in the infinite spirit, it brings back with it the resonance of the unmanifest but cannot contain it or capture it to bring it all into the limits of human perceptions and beliefs of measure. In the immersion of it awareness becomes aware of itself, without boundaries or limits. Once awareness returns to the limits of the manifest world it remains connected after so many trips back and forth in the process of meditation.
Just as color becomes colorfast when immersed in dye and exposed to the sun repeatedly.

If you ask yourself if you know if you are alive what would you say?
Would you say yes because someone told you or yes because you know?
If you fall in love how do you know that you are in love? How would you tell someone and how would they know?
If they did not know love the idea would be somewhat of a stretch to relate to. If one knew about love it would be something one could connect with due to their own experience.

If you take a scientific approach the feelings are simply the effects of firing synapses which you experience as love, and a machine might measure as neural and hormonal activity.
That machine would however be built from the knowledge and confines of belief and boundaries of the relative. The only machine that can become aware of something that has no boundaries is consciousness itself which exists regardless of boundaries and human conditions.

So in the case of conscious awareness of the absolute one has to be able to recognize the absolute within themselves and others, or consciousness in ones self and others that is not limited to boundaries of physical conditions to recognize when someone is having an experience of it. Similar to the designer, builder and occupant of the stadium who has a familiarity of resonance in experience and intimacy with the unchanging stadium.

One describes their experience and one resonates with truth/the stadium not the experience. If one has enough experience in it the resonance reflects a frequency similar to placing two tuning forks in the same room tuned to the same frequency.
One is struck and vibrates and automatically the other begins to vibrate with it at the same frequency.

Consciousness recognizes consciousness.

When one rises above the influences of ego and immerses themselves in the absolute, the understanding of the difference between illusion and Truth become clear.
There is nothing that cannot be known and nothing to limit one to the personal. One can just as easily jump into anothers experience as they jump from one experience to another within their own personality.
Its kind of like an intuitive process but less confined to resolute or abstract beliefs and ideas.

Everything in the manifest is vibrational frequencies of light. Even sound is light at a reduced vibration. Each object has its own fingerprint in time and space even the individual soul.
The OM AUM or The WORD of God as it is called in Western religions embodies all vibrational frequencies like a carrier wave that carries voice and music in a radio channel or frequency. The mind of spirit is a frequency tuner and according to individual needs brings whatever channel is necessary to complete individual desire and facilitate growth in awareness or shifting awareness from experience of relative measure, even experience beyond the relative.

The science of Yoga is compiled of thousands of years of study in the resonance of the absolute and its manifestations.
It was the basis for the Teachings of Buddha and Jesus, and every other master who has lived in body on this and every other planet containing evolving lifeforms of humanity.

I can tell you I know. Whether you believe me or anyone believes me is moot.
Belief does not change or alter the absolute, it continues or is, regardless.

For someone who has no conscious awareness of it, there is no proof until they become conscious enough to experience it. You can't prove it only validate it within yourself and others by being it, or as the term has been of late loosely thrown about, "Being in the NOW". Then you can recognize it in another when they are immersed in it because all thoughts of personality and belief are overshadowed or left behind like wiping the bugs off of a windshield, all that can be seen and experienced is the absolute rather than the bugs obscuring the view or the ego and all of its baggage.

Am I positive?
No, I am absolutely aware.

Is it the only possible experience of everyone in that state of reality?
That reality transcends all possible experiences.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/09/08 05:46 AM

Quote:
TT- are you positive that your own perception of ultimate reality, as described by you in your posts, is the only possible experience for everyone, of that state which is described as reality?
Ellis, old girl, are you not aware that, if you and I were "absolutely aware", we would not need to ask such a silly question? smile
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/09/08 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
TT- are you positive that your own perception of ultimate reality, as described by you in your posts, is the only possible experience for everyone, of that state which is described as reality?
Ellis, old girl, are you not aware that, if you and I were "absolutely aware", we would not need to ask such a silly question? smile
That would be the truth. Nothing on the outside would need to be a marker for comparison or validation for the personal.
There would be no fragmented pieces of reality in need of repair or completion. There would be only the "Now"
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 12:09 AM

Quote:
That would be the truth.
Says TT.

OK, Ellis, here is what I propose: In the spirit of peace, let us nominate that TT be the arbiter of "truth".

What do you say?, Ellis. Feel free to disagree with me, OK?

Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
That would be the truth.
Says TT.

OK, Ellis, here is what I propose: In the spirit of peace, let us nominate that TT be the arbiter of "truth".

What do you say?, Ellis. Feel free to disagree with me, OK?



How about we let the voice of experience in Truth absolute, be the guide to Truth Absolute, regardless of who it is.
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 12:48 AM

Rev said;
OK, Ellis, here is what I propose: In the spirit of peace, let us nominate that TT be the arbiter of "truth".

Ah--but whose truth would it be? It is necessary to BELIEVE in the truth absolute, so that's a problem right there. We all know that I don't believe in anything vaguely supernatural and the idea of all-enveloping truth has a very fuzzy edge I think.

So here's an idea---- TT can believe in his idea of truth, (ie the Absolute). Rev you can believe in your idea of truth ( probably based on the teaching of Christ) and I'll trust in my version (which is that ultimately we humans are capable of finding truth without god etc, we just take a longer time to get there because we are doing it for ourselves).

Problem solved! ---or maybe not___we three will never agree!! But at least we can remain mostly civil.

Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 03:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis

we three will never agree!!

Free will is not an agreement, and never is a long time...
Originally Posted By: Ellis

But at least we can remain mostly civil.
Once again we are at odds in the belief and definition of civility if there is no standard absolute for humanity to aspire to. Evolution of intellect will be the underlying melody of universal law.
As long as the ego is leading the band, expect diversity and independence.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 03:44 AM

OK, Ellis, GOD is Being, the NOW as is, not a being!!!

Now, let me see you deny the NOW, or Being as is. laugh laugh

BTW, I don't think of myself as a Christian absolutist. I like your idea of truth as that which comes from within the human spirit and that it is possible to agree to disagree, agreeably.
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 04:33 AM

TT- If ego is what makes for diversity and indepenedence, then I'm all for it.

Rev- Back off. I have no idea what you mean! Unless you mean something along the lines of god itself is the NOW. Which of course I do deny!
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 06:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT- If ego is what makes for diversity and indepenedence, then I'm all for it.

For ego, independence is separation, and diversity is Chaos.

Unity without ego and its independence is diversity of expression of the One. Unity of ego is everyone believing and thinking the same thing.

Being in the Now is being conscious or cognizant of the One universal mind acting in all things. Objectivity without boundaries of belief. Mind stilled and awareness aware of itself.

It has nothing to do with being self absorbed in the present delusion or belief and opinion of experience.
It's the ability to stand in everyone"s shoes at the same time consciously all the time.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 02:59 PM

Quote:
Rev- Back off.
Ellis, now it is my turn to ask you: What do you mean when you ask me to back off? Did my comment--verbal "jab"--cause you to feel a negative emotion?

I do apologize if my comment did make you feel I was offering a personal attack. I had no such intention. I should have posed my comment in the form of a question to all atheists:

What proof do atheists have that the Now (existence as is)--space/time, Being--is finite and limited?
BTW, I agree with Tolle that all emotions, including happy and sad ones, arise from the ego. I also acknowledge I have not as yet mastered handling all my emotions; but I am working on it.

Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 04:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

BTW, I agree with Tolle that all emotions, including happy and sad ones, arise from the ego. I also acknowledge I have not as yet mastered handling all my emotions; but I am working on it.


All energy arises from Spirit. The ego filters energies thru a collection of beliefs and ideas based on identity of reality and self into opinions. Taking stands in opinions from belief create emotional attachment and judgment.

The mind that is not situated in spirit but in the ego cannot master spirit, but it will attempt to master what it knows about itself.
Unfortunately the ego knows nothing of itself, only its opinions and judgments. It can't distance itself from its beliefs to be objective and witness itself in its beliefs.

To the ego self mastery is rearranging opinion to fit current beliefs, or the adding of more knowledge filtered thru those beliefs to create the ego differently.
Beliefs constantly change so the ego masters nothing, only changes priorities like a chameleon changes the color of its surface appearances.
The psyche (emotional body) remains filled with the collections of opinions and the outside shifts as the mind draws from the limited bank of egoic ideals, putting on a display of surface appearances to blend with what the mind has attached itself to as the true reality, the ever changing mixture of appearances reflected by the inner conglomeration of beliefs, opinions and judgments.

Without knowing God/Spirit/Now, true mastery of the Self and detachment from emotional disguises of pomp and circumstance of the ego is not possible. What the ego projects as God/Spirit/Now is drawn from the identification of ego and itself, not the Now/God/Spirit.

What is created is a sort of self hypnosis of a mind in ignorance, trying to create an idea that it is a mind that is not ignorant.
Without the personality knowing the Truth, trying to make truth appear on the surface is like trying to conjure health from sickness by boiling toads and herbs and dancing around a fire.

It would be like trying to hypnotize yourself into being a brain surgeon and operating on someone without every having spent the time or commitment to the knowledge and mastery of brain surgery under the guidance of someone who has.

The results aren't very pretty, and are most obvious.

History has shown us through the display of religious leaders and institutions how the ego has determined spirit/God looks and acts when the ego takes charge.

The very few who have come to speak of Truth have been misunderstood from the subjective states of consciousness of the observer which have been and are ego driven.

The few who have studied with the masters directly have become more cognizant of the reality of Truth.

Some who have awakened in their lifetime to the Truth without the memory of their previous tutelage are those such as Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle.
Having gained popularity for their awareness (without the awareness of how the mind makes the evolutionary transition from ego to Spirit awareness) are themselves incapable of leading another in taking steps to empty the psyche of egoic belief and stress in the nervous system which anchors the ego in place.
They can speak of the Truth and the few who resonate with it but don't have the experience of it, only feel the distant call of the heart which is buried under layers of conditioning and belief. It then can be a matter of discussion pertaining to belief and opinion but it does not become unified in each as the same Truth eternal. It becomes subject to limitation of the surface opinion and inner belief.

People such as Krishnamurti and Tolle awaken a desire that is in everyone; the highest desire of humanity, to awaken to unity of spirit and body. But regardless of the subtle voice, the ego which is in charge influences all thought and action around and away from spirit toward the ego's best laid plans in limitation and separation of spirit and the manifest.

Unless one has a way to draw the spirit within outward, by taking the mind past the ego and into the spirit continually erasing the influences of the ego, the ego will remain intact forever influencing all thought and action.

Self hypnosis only seeks to bury the known and conjure the unknown because it is initiated at the surface of the mind where the ego lives.

True mastery of the Self requires time and commitment to immersion of mind in spirit. And if one hasn't the guidance of one who has made the journey, one can only imagine as those who have shown us from historic testimony of church and belief, how successful we can be from the surface of the mind.

One can wait to see if they have an automatic awakening such as Krishnamurti, or Tolle, But those who have studied themselves under the guidance of Such Masters as Buddha or Jesus know that without proper guidance such a desire is less than fruitful. Those who awaken in one lifetime have spent in previous lifetimes under guidance of masters, time in self study of the Spirit within.

No words of man can contain spirit and so no amount of reading can free the mind of ego no matter how clear the source of the script. The ego will always translate the words according to belief and opinion.
Also no amount of listening to clear descriptions will unfold the truth of reality if the mind is sitting in the theater of beliefs and individual opinion.
Where the fragmented minds of ego dissect the infinite into the finite, it is not even possible to piece those fragments into a whole for the infinite is beyond the imagination of wholeness and the infinite would not be infinite if it could be fragmented into parts.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 10:14 PM

TT states
Quote:
The few who have studied with the masters directly have become more cognizant of the reality of Truth.
Wow! Interesting.

Ellis, unless one of "The Few ..." happens to be TT, I wonder if it could arranged--now that the time is now ripe--for us in this forum to have one of "The few ..." get it touch with us?
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 11:01 PM

Rev--- your comment seemed to be a little personally agressive, so I said 'backoff'. I am amongst all the other things, a pacifist!

By the way I admire your reason for editing!! We should all be so honest!!

TT- I am feeling that you redefine words to suit your meaning. Whilst this is not a new thing (think of the Ministry of Truth in '1984') it does verge on cheating. Or to quote, perhaps you agree with, I can't remember if it was Humpty Dumpty or the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland, "a word can mean whatever you wish it to".

Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/10/08 11:25 PM

Ellis, I appreciate what you say about words and their meanings.

With this in mind, I am not clear what atheists have in mind when they use the word 'God'. What do you have in mind?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/11/08 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
"a word can mean whatever you wish it to".


That would be the essence of relative truth.

The ancient Sanskrit language was developed when a high state of consciousness tuned into the vibrational frequencies of matter.
Where today we use words that have different meanings, the essence of the words in Sanskrit vibrated with the very source of the object perceived.
In the Bible the word of God is referred to as the Aum, Om or Amen. Within that vibration is contained all vibrations of the manifest.
When someone says something it resonates with the impression within the consciousness of that person.
The higher the levels of consciousness the more distinct or sharp the resonance.
At various levels of stress in the human nervous system or when the ego is saturating the intellect, the vibratory rate of consciousness in the brain is clouded with multitudes of ideas. Thought is cluttered with thought.
Thought is dense.

Words used effectively at refined levels of awareness are perceived by refined levels of consciousness.
Words used at high levels of consciousness are not understood at lower levels of consciousness, which is why Jesus spoke in parables to separate those who were developed enough to understand from those who were not evolved enough to advance.

Those who do not know consciousness at a refined level, do not perceive Consciousness that is refined.
From the surface appearances of the thick intellect everything is relative.

The analogy is often used that if an enlightened master were to appear to the masses he/she would not likely be recognized. For there are no distinguishing characteristics on the surface to identify with.
Then if one was to speak of Truth absolute... well we all know were that goes and how open people are to receive such nonsense...

There is a Sanskrit word, "Samyamah," which refers to the ability to follow a word through its vibratory pathway to the source of its birth in idea and in absolute beginning.
It is in itself a form of intuitive sense which allows one to unite at a spiritual level with objects of perception within projected reality.

Jesus when he was about 9 years old lectured his own school teacher for his ignorance and inability to grasp the vibration of language and the meaning in each letter in the Aramaic alphabet for its own distinct message.
The letters grouped together in a word had an underlying spiritual meaning which lifted the word into purpose and intent.
One word in the Sanskrit language can have 10 different meanings, to understand how it is used and what it means would take a refined intellect.

The reason the bible has been so mistranslated as are many of the ancient texts is because the level of consciousness of the translators is not at the same level as that of the master who spoke the words.

Anyone can hear the words but not everyone can hear the message behind them, regardless of how clear the source.

The English language of today with its many meanings and shortcomings of misunderstanding, is testimony to the degradation of the intellect as it is out of tune with the spirit.
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/11/08 03:59 AM

TT- I love playing with words and language. I love to shock by the use of a word that is out of context or has an unanticipated meaning. I am constantly thankful that English is my first language, as it is appallingly difficult to learn to fluency precisely because of its habit of absorbing other languages and its flexibility in grammar and syntax. However there are still rules and defining "independence" and "diversity" as you did extends the meaning to a stage where those particular words in that context were meaningless, and thus did not advance your argument.

You write- "Where today we use words that have different meanings, the essence of the words in Sanskrit vibrated with the very source of the object perceived."
and
"Words used effectively at refined levels of awareness are perceived by refined levels of consciousness."

These are interesting ideas, though I am uncomfortable with the idea that only the "refined" can unerstand the words fully. Good communication should enable all to participate and understand clearly. On the other hand the idea that words need to be considered and chosen carefully is one that I fully agree with.

Rev... Bear in mind, I am merely one stray atheist so I cannot speak for others but when I hear the word god I think of god.

Dict def..
1. the supreme or ultimate reality; the being whom people see as creator and ruler of the universe etc.

I just don't "believe in" him/her/it. Or anything divine or supernatural stuff. And you've asked me that before....and no.. I'm not sad and vicious!
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/11/08 04:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT- I love playing with words and language. I love to shock by the use of a word that is out of context or has an unanticipated meaning. I am constantly thankful that English is my first language, as it is appallingly difficult to learn to fluency precisely because of its habit of absorbing other languages and its flexibility in grammar and syntax. However there are still rules and defining "independence" and "diversity" as you did extends the meaning to a stage where those particular words in that context were meaningless, and thus did not advance your argument.

My statements don't need to advance or go anywhere. They are clear regardless of whether you understand them or not. Therefore the words are not intended to create an argument.
That is the beauty of language. It is conveyed and one understands if they listen. One does not have to struggle to make others understand. They do or they don't, that is what separates levels of consciousness and understanding.
Only the ego invests itself in what others believe and think.
You wouldn't expect a child to raise its level of understanding by keeping it at the level of a child, and an adult does not have to become a child to speak to the child. The adult plants seeds of knowledge which grow as the experience level of the child advances.
Originally Posted By: Ellis

You write- "Where today we use words that have different meanings, the essence of the words in Sanskrit vibrated with the very source of the object perceived."
and
"Words used effectively at refined levels of awareness are perceived by refined levels of consciousness."

These are interesting ideas, though I am uncomfortable with the idea that only the "refined" can unerstand the words fully. Good communication should enable all to participate and understand clearly. On the other hand the idea that words need to be considered and chosen carefully is one that I fully agree with.

Being conscious enough to inject knowledge from wisdom into the psyche does require a high degree of awareness. To make words to keep a child a child does disservice to the immortal soul within which is no child.
The part of you that is uncomfortable is the part that does not like being out of control.

Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/11/08 05:41 AM

Speaking of language, I happen to have in my library a copy of the book, THE HEBREW TONGUE RESTORED--And the true meaning of the Hebrew Words re-established and proved by their radical analysis.

It is by the French scholar Fabre d'Olivet (1815). The edition I have was done in 1921. The English translation is by Nayan Louise Redfield. Interestingly, d'Olivet claims that the Hebrew contained in Genesis is the pure idiom of the ancient Egyptians...According to Genesis, the Hebrews remained in Egypt some four hundred years.

According to the Essenian tradition every word in theSepher (book of formation) of Moses contains three meanings--the positive or simple, the comparative or figurative, the superlative or hieratic. Definitely not literally.

For example the root of the Hebrew, ELOHIM (Genesis 1:1), which, though in plural form, we translate as 'God', is EL or AL (used as a logo on Israeli airplanes). It symbolizes power and movement moving extensively and in all directions. Surely physicists, including materialistic atheists, who are interested in understanding the nature of such power must believe that it is there to be understood.

ABOUT THE BOOK OF FORMATION
http://www.qabbalah.de/qabbalah_book%20_formation.html#1

Letters of the Hebrew alphabet:
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm

Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/11/08 05:51 AM

Ellis
Quote:
I just don't "believe in" him/her/it. Or anything divine or supernatural stuff....
Ellis, neither do I. Also, GOD (EL/AL)--symbol of the reality of all Being and the Now--is not a him/her/it. BTW, I find all Nature superb.

Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/11/08 06:04 AM

Is it not true that the name of the Hebrew god was so sacred it was never uttered?

I think that that is precisely what physisists do, but they call it explaining physical (and other) forces, and some of them approach such a task as a puzzle to be solved, not an enigma to be worshipped.

Nature, of which we are a small part, is superb. We are in agreement.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/11/08 10:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Is it not true that the name of the Hebrew god was so sacred it was never uttered?

I think that that is precisely what physisists do, but they call it explaining physical (and other) forces, and some of them approach such a task as a puzzle to be solved, not an enigma to be worshipped.


The reference is to the idea that God is not a puzzle to be solved but that it is something that can be experienced.
Therefore to try to encapsulate the meaning in a name was futile.

Scientists can explore nature and they will find things within the realm of mechanics and natural law that are exposed in nature at the level in which they explore.
Whatever machines are created in the physical limits of the imagination will validate what they limit God to.
The only machine capable of joining God in the limitless is not manufactured and does not measure God, it only joins God.
That would be the human soul.
To surrender the physical to the unmanifest is the height of worship. All superstitious meanings are of the ego.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/11/08 01:37 PM

THE GREAT SCIENTIST, PHILOSOPHER AND MATHEMATICIAN, Alfred North Whitehead, In his book, Science and the Modern World, said, long before Tolle and others spoke of the Now:

"In a certain sense, everything is everywhere at all times."

For the mathematical roots of Whitehead's cosmological thought check out:

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2365

THE EVERYTHING (that is, total sum of everything physical, mental and spiritual, in the Now) THAT IS EVERYWHERE AND ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Interesting.

And, to me it sounds like a good definition of what I have in mind when I say, G(null)D, or GOD.
Keep in mind: I have to write it two ways, because, except in my signature, my 'puter keeps changing the acronym, G(null)D, which I like, into G,D.

BTW, orthdox Jews write 'G-d'--for the same reason I use GOD or G(null)D--to make us aware that, for them, G-d is not a person, thing or an it.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/14/08 12:09 AM

God is more than any sum of physical manifestations or everything, for God is not a thing
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/14/08 03:56 AM

Quote:
God is more than any sum of physical manifestations or everything, for God is not a thing.
Agreed! However, do you agree that things and people, including us, live and have our being in GOD?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/14/08 03:06 PM

Being human in God is a relative idea only experienced by the ego. From the awareness of being God (Unity) there is only God.
Posted by: Thislin

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/14/08 03:39 PM

As an atheist I have to stab at this one: I avoid "God" when referring to my personal ideas about the universe. "God" only appears when I am talking about theists and their beliefs.

Others are not so cautious and use "God" as a shorthand for "whatever it is that is ultimately responsible for the universe, if anything."

One thing is sure--it is not possible to conclude that someone is a theist only because they refer to God. Even if they don't refer to "God" as I describe above, they may still just be a closeted atheist politician.
Posted by: Thislin

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/14/08 03:46 PM

My understanding of the reason many Jews do not use "God" is not what you say but because they want to avoid idolatry. I once asked and got that answer. The individual in question also did that with "Jesus" and "Allah," but not with "Buddha," because, I was told, the Buddha is not ever worshiped (I don't think the guy had ever been to Sri Lanka).

Of course, "Buddha" is not a name, but only a title: come to think of it the same thing applies to "Allah" and "God."

Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/14/08 05:33 PM

The same applies to 'Christ'--meaning gifted, blessed, or anointed, one. IMO, it is good for anyone, including atheists, to be 'gifted'. In addition, I am more concerned with being orthoprax--having the right kind of actions; not just orthodox--having the right set of beliefs.

Allah (Arabic) and Eloh(Hebrew) allude to the highest power; Theos (Greek) alludes to the highest idea and God (Anglo/Saxon) alludes to the highest good. 'God' is the short way of saying 'the one, powerful and good idea" (TOPAGI). Do atheists believe that such is possible? The god of moral and ethical atheists could be TOPAGI. smile

To avoid idolatry of the mind--using a name, or a noun, I prefer using the acronym GOD. When I am in my agnostic mode, or have a lot of questions, I can use G?D. In my money-raising mode I could use G$D smile In my dyslexic mode it could be DOG.

BTW, it is good to have so many gifted atheists and agnostic with whom to dialogue. It helps me keep my aging--one more year to the big 80--brain sharp. Thanks!
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/14/08 11:40 PM

Rev said-"The god of moral and ethical atheists could be TOPAGI."

Cute initials but as I have explained many times the term 'atheism' describes a lack of belief, not a rejection of specific beliefs. So atheists believe in no gods at all, not even the extravagantly named TOPAGI.

As Thislin accurately states, atheists only refer to god to describe the "whatever" it is that theists worship.

CONGRATULATIONS on the 79 years Rev!! You've lost none of the feistiness! I hope you continue to debate for many more years yet.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/15/08 12:00 AM

Trying to circumvent idolotry thru the intellect and attachment to words doesn't give you much freedom. As you dance around the ego of so many diverse beliefs trying to sharpen the point of a conversation in meaning, or to avoid creating a disturbance in some belief system divided by social programming only creates a from of diplomacy that is ultimately motivated by caution and fear. To live in constant defense and public co-dependence is what the spiritual teachings call suffering. It is the suffering of the ego.
Before the dogma of language became a problem of ego, those who were adept in conversation were capable of listening, rather than laying personal meanings on top of the words that were spoken by others.
If someone was speaking of their experience of God, the listener was tuning into the others experience. The words when listened to in language that was more attuned to the vibratory resonance that played between the spirit and the listener, the speaker was the reflective medium or the device to bring that experience to the surface.
This was the case with Jesus. The Christ was the living medium that lived in the manifestation of Jesus that allowed the spirit to speak without the attachments of egoic belief and dogma of language. Like a radio reciever that translates the message on the airwaves brodacast from the source to the human ear.

Today it seems instead of listening, the ego with all of its ideals and superstition, keeps turning the dials of the receiver until the voice comes out exactly as the listener expects their message of reality to appear.

Open discussion and expression of experience is now limted to personal belief and the dogma of superstitious etiquette.
Don't speak of God unless you do it on my terms kind of thinking. And it all makes even less sense if each is making their excuses without the actual experience of spirit within themselves radiating outward into everything experienced.

Unless someone actually immerses the intellect into spirit all the talking around it without actually gettiing to know it seems a bit irrelevent.
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/15/08 03:39 AM

Anon: To insist that noone should speak of god unless they do so with your "terms kind of thinking" is bizarre and arrogant. I agree that it is the minutia of dogma and belief that can cause misunderstanding and even war, but we are as humans should be able to deal with such divisions sensibly and with maturity. It is this diversity that makes us such an interesting species.

We all make assumptions regarding meaning within language. That is why I am so pedantic about the need for care in defining terms. Words are very important, but there are many actual languages, and sometimes they are all trying to convey identical meanings, which of course are coloured by the cultural background of the writer or speaker. As a result of course there are layers of meaning. I see nothing sinister in that. What you do find though, if you are ever in a place where you cannot understand a word people are saying, that there is often a universal need for communication. Sometimes this can be non-verbal, other times it can be an example of shared cooperation and with cooperation understanding can be achieved, --- though not always agreement. But does that matter?
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/15/08 02:01 PM

Quote:
Anon: To insist that none should speak of god unless they do so with your "terms kind of thinking" is bizarre and arrogant.
Bizarre! Arrogant! Right on, Ellis. Would you also add, opaque?

BTW, Ellis, May I ask Anon: Are you related to TT. smile

BTW 2, I suspect that when Anon wrote:
Quote:
"Don't speak of God unless you do it on my terms kind of thinking."
he did not intend to offer it as his point of view. We'll see.

If I am right this is an example of opaque, unclear, writing. But none the less, much of Anon's post is, like that of TT's posts--it is filled with the attitude of an arrogant ego with a hot line to God.

Incidentally, I only wish there was such a thing as a human-like and objective god--the kind atheists say they can live without. BTW 3, because I know--at least strongly suspect--there is no such god, so can I.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/15/08 06:40 PM

BTW, atheists, what you you mean when you say, "We can live without gods, or God?"
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/15/08 11:42 PM

BTW, atheists, what you you mean when you say, "We can live without gods, or God?"

Just what it says Rev.... Or perhaps a subtle change would be more accurate--as in- "We can live without a belief in god".

In fairness to the Anon poster I feel that he/she had some issue with that sort of thinking also, although the actual text in the post is ambiguous. However I would like to give him/her the benefit of the doubt. I would still criticise very sharply those who have such a closed point of view.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/16/08 01:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Anon: To insist that noone should speak of god unless they do so with your "terms kind of thinking" is bizarre and arrogant.
To assume I insist anything is the result of misunderstanding. Which is why I said what I said regarding the ability to discuss God without the intellect being immersed in God.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


BTW, Ellis, May I ask Anon: Are you related to TT. smile

I am TT, I just happen to be in Hong Kong and not at my own computer so I haven't logged in to my own account.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


BTW 2, I suspect that when Anon wrote:
Quote:
"Don't speak of God unless you do it on my terms kind of thinking."
he did not intend to offer it as his point of view. We'll see.

If I am right this is an example of opaque, unclear, writing. But none the less, much of Anon's post is, like that of TT's posts--it is filled with the attitude of an arrogant ego with a hot line to God.

It would be from your persepective Rev., your lack of experience in the immsersion of spirit and the threat to your ego and its indpendent nature to cling to changing ideas and ideals that are personal to you. It is only the insistence to identify with your beliefs and independant opinion that prevents the death of the ego.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Incidentally, I only wish there was such a thing as a human-like and objective god--the kind atheists say they can live without. BTW 3, because I know--at least strongly suspect--there is no such god, so can I.

Jesus was such a human-like God. A person immersed in spirit and absolute truth. Those that could not imagine anything other than personal opinion could not grasp the extent of his being nor what he had to say.

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Or perhaps a subtle change would be more accurate--as in- "We can live without a belief in god".

We could, for any belief is just as irrelevant as non-belief. People will still have an opinion of good and evil even if some vague idea of an omnipresent nature has connected us at a level beyond the personal projections of imagination and superstition.
Originally Posted By: Ellis

In fairness to the Anon poster I feel that he/she had some issue with that sort of thinking also, although the actual text in the post is ambiguous. However I would like to give him/her the benefit of the doubt. I would still criticise very sharply those who have such a closed point of view.

You might have a different idea if you found how unimaginitive the ego really is when it comes to connecting to God.

If you had a TV and never plugged it in, you might speak all you wanted to about what was on the TV while it was unplugged, but to actually grasp what was on it when it is plugged in would be less than accurate if even intellgent if you never saw it in action while plugged in with all circuits of communication active.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/16/08 02:28 AM








A holy man was having a conversation with the Lord one day and said, 'Lord, I would like to know what Heaven and Hell are like.'


The Lord led the holy man to two doors.


He opened one of the doors and the holy man looked in. In the middle of the room was a large round table. In the middle of the table was a large pot of stew, which smelled delicious and made the holy man's mouth water .

The people sitting around the table were thin and sickly. They appeared to be famished. They were holding spoons with very long handles that were strapped to their arms and each found it possible to reach into the pot of stew and take a spoonful. But because the handle was longer than their arms, they could not get the spoons back into their mouths.


The holy man shuddered at the sight of their misery and suffering.


The Lord said, 'You have seen Hell.'


They went to the next room and opened the door. It was exactly the same as the first one. There was the large round table with the large pot of stew which made the holy man's mouth water. The people were equipped with the same long-handled spoons, but here the people were well nourished and plump, laughing and talking. The holy man said, 'I don't understand.'


It is simple,' said the Lord. 'It requires but one skill. You see they have learned to feed each other, while the greedy think only of themselves.'



Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/16/08 05:12 AM

TT claims:
Quote:
Jesus was such a human-like God.
To the exclusion of all others?

Then how come that John 10:34, John 17:20-24--and many other passages--make it clear that nowhere does Jesus ever claim: "I am the exclusive son of God, and no one else is?"

Paul also makes it clear that we are all called to sons, and daughters of--that is, one with--God.

IMO, son ship and daughter ship is the gift that comes to us when we choose to be, and live, at one ship with the highest good, GOD.

BTW, TT, over the years I have used the rather valuable parable you told, a number of times. Deeds, not creeds, are what count.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/16/08 06:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
BTW, atheists, what do you mean when you say, "We can live without gods, or God?"

Just what it says Rev.... Or perhaps a subtle change would be more accurate--as in- "We can live without a belief in god". ...
OK, if that is how you feel, it is how you feel. But you seem to value living. Therefore, consider this question: What is living? What is life?

IMO--and it is just my opinion--GOD, or Being, and life, with all its physical, mental and spiritual sensations, of all kinds--are all part of the mix. And this is something I would not like to be without.

For me, living physically--not to mention living mentally and spiritually--involves my using all my physical senses.

Theoretically, it is possible one could still be alive without the five senses. But it is hard for me to imagine what physical life would be like if I lost my five senses--my sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch and still be aware.

This reminds me of the research done by Dr. Wilder Penfield, the famous brain surgeon who was very interested in how the brain functions?

In the 1950's, using students at McGill University, Montreal, he did a series of experiments to find out what would happen if the students were deprived of sight, sound and other physical sensations for an extended period of time.

The students were well paid to do nothing. The were told just to lie there and float, motionlessly, in tank of water while being deprived of light and sound.

By touching a button they could stop the experiment any time. But very few lasted more than a few hours. Some witnessed that they were virtually on the verge of going insane before the hellish psychic pain forced them to touch the button.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield
http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=10211
http://www.answers.com/topic/wilder-penfield
Posted by: Thislin

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/16/08 04:10 PM

In my experience, the biggest problem theists have with atheism is the fact that atheism seems to provide no foundation for existence--especially no purpose and no moral or ethical structure.

Frankly I find most of the answers atheists give to these criticisms to be sappy rationalization, and I don't think the criticisms can be refuted. A world inhabited by God or even by Olympian super-beings is far more pleasant to imagine than one with no purpose and no morality.

Still, it is a fallacy to believe something because one does not like the consequences of the alternative.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/16/08 09:35 PM

YOUR INVITATION TO BE PART OF A GREAT MOVEMENT TO HELP OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD
===============================================================
I repeat: As a unitheist and interested is helping create a new reality, I admire people, including atheists and agnostics, who really can--and I don't mean those who pretend they can--live moral, ethical, useful and happy lives on the basis of physicalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism

BUT ISN'T PHYSICALISM ENOUGH?
Physicalism is a philosophical position holding that everything which exists is no more extensive than its physical properties; that is, that there are no kinds of things other than physical things. The term was coined by Otto Neurath in a series of early 20th century essays on the subject, in which he wrote:

"According to physicalism, the language of physics is the universal language of science and, consequently, any knowledge can be brought back to the statements on the physical objects."

Physicalists are those who choose to say: "I can live quite well without believing in gods, or God, especially the kind imposed by certain religionists." They have every right to do so.

WHEN LIFE HANDS YOU A LEMON
But what happens when life does turn sour? More often than not, our lot in life is not a happy one. For most people, atheists included, there are times when we are called on to face evils that cause us much suffering, pain and even the tragedy of death. What then?

BTW, I will leave it to atheists themselves to tell us how they handle life when it turns sour; when evil circumstances--often inflicted by the so-called Bible, Koran, etc-believers--seem to immerse their lives in pain and misery.

THE PROCESS PHILOSOPHY AND THEOLOGY OF ALFRED NORTH WHITEHEAD
=============================================================
Meanwhile, as a unitheist--that is, one who is very critical of traditional theism, deism and pantheism--I am proud to be one person is a great movement known as process philosophy and theology (PPT). Heaven is not destiny; it is a process.

PPT is dedicated to developing a new kind of reality based on a rational faith and an open theology. It is one which is not afraid to explore that which is beyond reason, but it does not advocate going contrary to it.

THIS MOVEMENT IS GROWING
Some very brilliant male and female minds, many professors at our great institutions of learning,have come to the conclusion --dreamed of long ago by the great prophets of all the great religions--that we live, move and have our being in an infinite and eternal universe--which I call GOD--a kind of quantum computer, which is just waiting for us to connect with it and tune in to its unlimited supply of god-like knowledge, wisdom and power, which is available for us to use and begin the creation of a love-based reality.

BTW, no one is insisting that god-talk must be used by those who, for personal reasons, find it uncomfortable to do so. This being granted, why why would any rational person interested in being part of creating a better reality conclude that the philosophy of physicalism is our only option?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/17/08 01:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT claims:
Quote:
Jesus was such a human-like God.
To the exclusion of all others?

Then how come that John 10:34, John 17:20-24--and many other passages--make it clear that nowhere does Jesus ever claim: "I am the exclusive son of God, and no one else is?"

Paul also makes it clear that we are all called to sons, and daughters of--that is, one with--God.

IMO, son ship and daughter ship is the gift that comes to us when we choose to be, and live, at one ship with the highest good, GOD.

BTW, TT, over the years I have used the rather valuable parable you told, a number of times. Deeds, not creeds, are what count.


The Christ Consciousness or Self Realization or Enlightenment in the highest state of Human Consciousness Jesus achieved is not exclusive to Jesus. However it is not an opinion and not an egoic choice to slap relative definitions of unity or good will that creates Christed Consciousness.
Therefore it was not the teaching of Jesus or any other enlightened master that one simply decide for themselves they are enlightened and one with everything that one becomes liberated from ego.

And yes many use the parable but not many posses the level of consciousness to be aware of what each individual needs in order to break the bonds of ego.
Instead the ego enables the ego, offering food to the hungry without enlivening their ability to feed themselves, Clothe the shivering without enabling the desire to clothe themselves. The ego fears death and helps to spread fear of death. Unity from the ego means everyone works together even if it means they work to the goal of self destruction and anihilation, like lemmings screaming toward the edge of a cliff. Ego makes opinion freedom and God, even if it is an opinion derived without knowledge and experience, and then in democratic process it creates a majority of rules founded on principles of opinion rather than principles of knowlege and experience.
In summary, a rule labled as "Golden" to protect individuality in the name of ignorance and conjecture, giving ego supreme rule above and beyond Christed Consciousness.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/17/08 01:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Thislin

Still, it is a fallacy to believe something because one does not like the consequences of the alternative.

Or because they don't like the feeling they get from something other.
Beliefs are constantly changing with opinion and new knowlege.
The infinite is beyond all beliefs and opinion but it is difficult to give up all opinion and belief without direct experience of something greater than all opinion and belief.
The ego lives only in the world of belief, definition and changing opinion. It cannot see anything other, and so from the ego there is never unity of One Mind or underlying principle.
All principles in the relative are subject to changing belief and opinion. The ego then tries to build on what it likes and also tries to push away all that it does not like, never taking the intellect beyond surface values and perceptions to connect the opposites to the source of all humanity in one universal mind.
Beliefs then become product of both imagination and programs passed from one generation to another struggling to fit the universe into boxes that protect individuality in limitation and influence.
Atheism is, in itself a determination to free ones sense of Self from the opinion of others so that it can be free of dogma. It is a psychological religion of free will only.
Posted by: Thislin

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/17/08 08:33 AM

Physicalism needs to be distinguished from atheism. Most Asian religions (at least those in China) would often meet the definition of atheist, but are not physicalist. ("Physicalism" replaces the older "materialism.") So when I self-identify as an atheist, it does not necessarily imply that I subscribe to Western notions of atheism, that assert that only physical processes (matter-energy) exist.

As far as the physicalist-atheist being admirable for living a moral life in spite of there being no philosophical foundation for doing so, I would suggest that they do so for the same reasons most religious believers do so--convenience, habit and childhood training.

Those who are truly immoral are rare (we call them sociopaths and it seems to be a mental abnormality). Very few people make moral decisions on philosophical or religious grounds, although they often explain or justify them after the fact by resorting to this sort of argument. The criminal is typically efficient at finding justifications within these systems--we all have to live with ourselves, and this includes living with our childhood indoctrination into cultural norms.

Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/17/08 11:03 PM

Quote:
"So when I self-identify as an atheist, it does not necessarily imply that I subscribe to Western notions of atheism, that assert that only physical processes (matter-energy) exist."
Thislin, I take it from this that you and I concur: What is needed, IMO, is a redefinition of the god-concept.

BTW, I started this process, decades ago!

Please, take note of my signature. Meanwhile, I invite you to join the movement. That is, let us make a sincere attempt to define the god-concept--one that takes it out of the hands of the religionists and puts it in the hands of the people and which includes philosophy, the sciences and the arts...and is flexible.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/17/08 11:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
That is, let us make a sincere attempt to define the god-concept--one that takes it out of the hands of the religionists and puts it in the hands of the people and which includes philosophy, the sciences and the arts...and is flexible.


Fools (EGO) taking from fools creating more foolishness...
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/18/08 03:35 AM

Rev- In this morning's paper, (The Age) there was a news item about a "Global Campaign"to apply the Golden Rule worldwide. Involved in the launch of this initiative were representatives of Christians, Jews and Muslims. It sounded like something that would interest you, but I have never learned how to post those blue links at all so I'll just give the LINK as in the paper--

charterforcompassion.com

You could probably google it too. I hope you (and anyone else) can get to read it as it is interesting!
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/18/08 04:30 AM

Ellis, just write it like this: put http://www. in front of the name, OK? BTW, Thanks. I have met Karen Armstrong, a former RC Nun. She is very much a universalist, which I am, as a unitheist.

http://www.charterforcompassion.com
Posted by: Thislin

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/18/08 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
"So when I self-identify as an atheist, it does not necessarily imply that I subscribe to Western notions of atheism, that assert that only physical processes (matter-energy) exist."
Thislin, I take it from this that you and I concur: What is needed, IMO, is a redefinition of the god-concept.
A group of people cannot redefine words. This is the activity of lawyers who want to confuse the issues. Whatever "God" means to a person is what it means. I think to most of us the word implies a being (purpose, intelligence) of infinite magnitude. The idea of the existence of such a being can be, as I see it, nothing but religion.

I doubt the existence of anything infinite and I certainly see no evidence of intelligence in the working of the universe at large.

Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/18/08 05:14 PM

Quote:
A group of people cannot redefine words.
Are you sure they cannot, Thislin? In my experience it happens all the time.

You say, "... "God" means to a person is what it means. I think to most of us the word implies a being (purpose, intelligence) of infinite magnitude." and you are right.

IMO, most people do not believe in and act on a "god" based on the reality of the universe--physical, mental and spiritual--all that is.

They offer lip service to an idol which they create in their minds. And this is the problem. Most people find it really difficult to trust such an idolatrous concept of god so they go about living lives of despair, dominated by fear, uncertainty and doubt. This of course is the kind of idol which is an easy target for atheists to knock down. Without having to become an atheist, I gave up this god of the psyche, this egoic-kind of god, decades ago.

You say, "I doubt the existence of anything infinite ..." But do you doubt existence itself, including your own?

You say there is, "... no evidence of intelligence in the working of the universe at large."

Are you and I as conscious beings without any kind of intelligence? Is the universe without that which is Good, Orderly and Desirable--or beautiful? The earth as we know it may not have enough GOD supply--that which is good, etc.--in the finished form to supply all those who would like to have them; but it is not without any.

IMO, there is no lack of supply. What is lacking is the motivation, the will, the wit, the wisdom and the practical ability of some human beings to tap into the supply. The good news is: It is not difficult for those with the will to learn how to get involved in this process. I know from experience: It can be taught and learned.

BTW, read John 1: In the beginning was the word (referring to the LOGOS--the intelligent idea behind all things), John 10:20--34FF and John 17:20-24.

Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/19/08 12:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
A group of people cannot redefine words.
Are you sure they cannot, Thislin? In my experience it happens all the time.
Sure it does, but defining God by using words however they are rearranged is still the intellect immersed in ego rather than spirit.
Whether it be religion or someone who disagrees with religion, to take an opinion and to define that as God is still an opinion and not God.
Without immersing the intellect in spirit the ego will always try to define God into changing meanings using words that have no resonance with Spirit but rather with opinion and belief. Building another Church and a religion by definition is still dogma, and not spirituality.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

BTW, read John 1: In the beginning was the word (referring to the LOGOS--the intelligent idea behind all things), John 10:20--34FF and John 17:20-24.

The Logos refers to God as consciousness uniting the unmanifest with the manifest and it is not an idea. You can have an idea of it, but still that idea or definition will not assimilate the extent of reality, only condense limitation of belief and opinion. The word is the manifestation of the unmanifest in the Aum/OM/Amen or vibratory matrix of consciousness as Universal Mind or God in action, the active absolute. It cannot be condensed into an idea or an opinion either, but ego still tries. The condensation of the Om is what is called illusion in Vedic reference, or the Tree of Good and Evil in Western Religion.

Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/19/08 03:39 AM

Thislin wrote:
"A group of people cannot redefine words. This is the activity of lawyers who want to confuse the issues."

"A group of people" is exactly who does decide the meaning of words. I am old enough to remember when 'gay' meant ' very happy' and absolutely nothing else. It was also a popular girl's name, similar to Joy. "A group of people" changed the meaning almost overnight. There are many such examples, but this one of the most extreme, it happened very much more quickly than usual.

No meaning is set in stone, but we cannot individually decide on meaning or usage in a way binding on other people, partly because, as you suggest it would be legally meaningless. Lawyers do not re-define words, they merely challenge word meaning when the grammar or sytax allows for different interpretation. That is why, when we use a word, it should be carefully considered, terms should be defined with accuracy and the dictionary should be consulted frequently.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/19/08 04:14 AM

Now, Thislin, the above, by TT, should make sure you are among the enlightened ones, right?

I hope this brings you clarity to you mind! Or should I say pneuma? smile
Posted by: Thislin

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/20/08 11:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Now, Thislin, the above, by TT, should make sure you are among the enlightened ones, right?

I hope this brings you clarity to you mind! Or should I say pneuma? smile
I begin to think that this board is mainly inhabited by frustrated lawyers. Here we see someone playing games with the phrase "a group of people," taking my use of it out of context. It is true that people "decide" the meaning of words, but not by a "decision" process. The meanings of words are set by usage, largely a matter of chance.

The "gay" example is pertinent. Had it been put to a vote, the change in the meaning of the word would have been overwhelmingly defeated. However, languages that have a need (a non-technical, judgmentally neutral word for homosexual was needed) usually find a way to fill the need. It is not a conscious decision process--it just sort-of "happens."

If I recall correctly, the English "gay" was taken from French "gai," and not directly from the older English "gay,[happy]" which was thereby pushed aside. Multiple but related meanings of words often get that way from repeated borrowing from a nearby language (U gave long wondered why we call this stealing of words from another language "borrowing").

As far as dictionaries go, they are far too often treated as Holy Writ, while anyone reading the preface to a modern dictionary can see that this authoritative prescription of usage is not their function. They are good for avoiding serious malapropism, and of course for checking spelling, but meaning is up to the individual--some of the best writing routinely goes about stretching the dictionary meaning so as to express the heretofore unexpressed.

Trying to redefine the word "God" is an interesting exercise in windmill jousting, anyway. Whatever God is is what He is, if anything.

Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/20/08 03:57 PM

Quote:
Whatever God is, is what He is, if anything.
I agree! So what is God, for you?

BEWARE OF ORGANIZED RELIGION
============================
BTW, I have no intention of imposing any creeds or restrictive dogmatics of any organized religion on anyone, including on myself.

I learned a lot from the way I was raised, theologically speaking, for the simple reason that my teachers allowed us students freedom of conscience and had a great respect for reason and the value of science. I was taught how to think, not what to think. Because of this, I have a great deal of respect for my mentors.

This leads me to say: I find it is impossible to accept that there is a human-and-person-like god, separate and apart this cosmos and us humans. If you feel otherwise, I respect your opinion. Let us dialogue about, with respect for one another.

Be this as it may, my conscience led me to ask: Perhaps we need a new definition of the god-concept. This led me to seek for such a definition.

Until I hear of something better, at this point, I find it useful to stop thinking of 'God' as a proper noun.

Now I use the acronym GOD--meaning goodness, order and desirable--instead of the noun 'God'. BTW, see the spelling I use in my signature. Note that I use the symbol, Ø, the null. One scientist, in REDEFINEGOD.COM ,tells me that the null = 1/0, which, mathematically speaking, means that all things are possible, just as Jesus said.

http://www.redefinegod.com/profile/RevLGKing

IMO, in GØD, all things--even the apparently chaotic and evil--work together, ultimately, for Good (Paul). Meanwhile, science is working on helping bring Order out of the chaos, and the end result, I hope and believe, will be Desirable, beautiful, lovely and true. For me, this is what is ultimately good, valuable and eternally true.

THE WONDERFUL RESULTS OF BEING IN TUNE WITH THE INFINITE
========================================================
All this, in my opinion, has a very practical result. I am persuaded that the more and more I become aware of my at-one-ment with GØD, and stop resisting the flow of physical and mental abundance, the less and less I am a victim of negative physical and mental circumstances often filled with the misery of pain and suffering. The agony of fear, anxiety and doubt (FAD) are, rapidly, being replaced with that of joy and peace of mind.

To you, and anyone reading this post, I ask: How do you define the god-concept? What, for you, is the ultimate good and is of eternal value?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/20/08 07:05 PM

Oh "Good" were no longer trying to re-define the word God anymore.
There is hope for humanity... wink
Now all we have to do is refine the intellect to stop defining that which cannot be defined and, to actually tune into the infinite.
Posted by: Thislin

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/21/08 05:04 PM

I don't think there is a God except in human imagination, but I could be wrong. I rather doubt that, though, since thinking about the idea of God leads me to think that if such a Being really existed, His presence would be inescapably and blindingly obvious (unless He is going to considerable trouble to conceal His presence, and why would He do that?). That God's presence is not easily determined is what is obvious. It takes real work and a lot of faith to believe in God (and, I think, a huge dose of childhood indoctrination, since few who have not been indoctrinated ever come to believe in Him).

The human thought process does not use words and its associated definition structures. If you think about this you can see that this is so--when you talk you do not form the words you use until you say them. You do not think them first and then say them--you say them automatically, even though your thoughts may be elsewhere.

This even applies when we speak a language we have learned in adulthood. Sometimes I have to stop and ponder what the English may be for something, but not because I haven't been functioning in English, but because a vocabulary lesson has slipped out of the range of immediate mental access. The same thing happens even in our native tongue.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/21/08 06:18 PM

Quote:

The human thought process does not use words and its associated definition structures. If you think about this you can see that this is so--when you talk you do not form the words you use until you say them. You do not think them first and then say them--you say them automatically, even though your thoughts may be elsewhere.
This is similar to the unconscious approach to God and the Conscious approach to God. The unfortunate approach to God thru belief is that you think about the word God and then you associate the impulses of thought attached to memories of what others have told you over the years of learning and absorbing information that are linked to who you think you are and what reality is.
The ego lives according to programming. It has absorbed words and their meanings from birth. First and foremost is the influence of parental beliefs and ideals. Over half of the human psyche is the voice of our parents, the other is a mixture of peer association, schooling, media and what personality decides to take ownership of. Very little of who we are is original to who we were when we came innocently into this world.
So who and what we are is forgotten, as has the close association to God been lost due to influence of belief and opinion that has been compressed into words and ideas of the ego and its programs.

God has become a belief rather than the experience.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/21/08 11:09 PM

Quote:
God has become a belief rather than the experience.
Interesting point. When I was a theist, 'God' was a belief. Since--building on theism, which I respect--I became a unitheist: GOD is an experience--and a truly liberating experience.

BTW, it is possible for any open-minded person to experience GOD.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/22/08 01:06 AM

Being open minded and saturated in ego does not give one the experience of God, tho identification with an experience and an identity labeled as God is common.
Lots of people think they experience God because they have good experiences. Good experiences do not equal God.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/22/08 04:43 AM

Quote:
Being open minded and saturated in ego does not give one the experience of God ...
So true, TT!!! I am so happy that you realize this. Good for you!!!

I always suggest to people dealing with an ego problem: Please read the Sermon on the Mount, especially Matt. 7:1-12; Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 13. I found reading it very helpful. It works, even for those of us who are not at the genius level. It also helps in the development of a sense of community.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/22/08 05:33 AM

A friend from www.redefinegod.com sent me information about
METAPSYCHIATRY
Founded by the Dr. Thomas Hora.

He said, "I relate very closely to his concepts of reality:

Having observed, first-hand, that orthodox forms of treatment did not always bring healing to the ills of mankind, he sought to obtain a deeper understanding of the issues which, in turn, led him to spiritual literature. From this point, until the birth of Metapsychiatry in 1977, Dr. Hora's spiritual quest was in full bloom. His search encompassed the study of various theosophies, of existentialism and phenomenology, and of the sacred texts of Zen, Taoism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity...."

Quote:
THE ELEVEN PRINCIPLES OF METAPSYCHIATRY

1. Thou shalt have no other interests before the good of God, which is spiritual blessedness.

2. Take no thought for what should be or what should not be; seek ye first to know the good of God, which already is.

3. There is no interaction anywhere, there is only Omniaction everywhere.

4. Yes is good, but no is also good.

5. God helps those who let Him.

6. If you know what, you know how.

7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.

8. Problems are lessons designed for our edification.

9. Reality cannot be experienced or imagined; it can, however, be realized.

10. The understanding of what really is, abolishes all that seems to be.

11. Do not show your pearls to unreceptive minds, for they will demean them.

— Thomas Hora
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/22/08 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


I always suggest to people dealing with an ego problem: Please read the Sermon on the Mount, especially Matt. 7:1-12; Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 13. I found reading it very helpful. It works, even for those of us who are not at the genius level. It also helps in the development of a sense of community.

The ego cannot resolve itself of itself.
Which is why Jesus spoke in parables for those who would hear and see.

No amount of reading frees the intellect from ego no matter how clear the information. The best you get is an enlightened ego. A Parrot that speaks principles laid out for humanity to discover when ego no longer serves one to remain self absorbed in self proclamation and Self aggrandizement.

The intellect must reside within the absolute to free itself of ego, not spin the intellect with definitions and meanings.

In the Upanishads the texts of enlightenment it is said reading scripture, meditation or immersing the intellect in the absolute, and guidance (surrounding yourself with enlightened company) is the path to liberation. The ego cannot free itself from ego nor does it commit suicide. One ascends ego by rising above the limits of definition thru the immersion into the unlimited. Like turning on a light in a dark room to vanquish the shadows.

These were the principles of the Teachings of Jesus as he taught his disciples to come to self Realization.
He slammed the Pharisees for playing up the intellect and parroting words without having immersed themselves in the absolute God.

From Immersion and stabilized awareness of God in everything one lives in the world but not of it.
Good becomes irrelevant in its dual meanings of ego to the Good or absolute perfection in the creation of the manifest as the laws of Karma are concerned.
The world is a stage and all manifestations are projections of belief and ideals. When fear and judgment of reality inhabits the intellect it works to correct the manifest rather than to correct the vision in the personal which sees reality as a distortion of Love or God.

This is how the ego comes to know Good in evil. By labeling it God rather than experiencing God in evil. It then stands in evil and turns a blind eye to reality by pretending it's all God not knowing when to get involved or not to get involved.


Judgment when seen thru Unity such as Jesus Judged was of clear perception. When he spoke of non judgment he spoke of the reality that ego cannot judge because of attachment and misperception of reality. But when Jesus cast judgment he said, "My Judgment is True." So the ego would not recognize judgment coming from the clear vessel as anything other than ego.
God sees God, Ego sees Ego. Same as Consciousness sees Consciousness. Or Water sees and experiences itself as water regardless of what state it appears, be it gaseous, liquid or solid.

Without enlightened guidance the ego cannot judge between illusion and reality on its own.

As a result of these truths all communities derived of intellect fail and wither because of the underlying separation that exists in the individual of belief and opinion. No matter how hard one tries to come to democratic union and agreement by trying to force the intellect to drop judgment and behave in a particular kind of way, the nervous system filled with the stresses of belief, fear and opinions cannot contain energies for very long without exploding into emotional expression.

To free the intellect one must optimize the intellect by removing all stress from the nervous system. If it isn't done stress eats away at the body creating disease and aging of the body.

Few have studied the teachings of the Masters to discover the path to liberation. Many read highlights, take what they will to match their ideals and then project themselves into a picture they believe is free of ego and the immersion into God.

As I've said before. A brain surgeon could easily pick out a brain surgeon wannabe from a practiced surgeon. So can an enlightened nervous system detect a self proclaimed enlightened wannabe.


10. The understanding of what really is, abolishes all that seems to be. Or said another way, The understanding of truth and reality allows one to recognize false prophets without any difficulty.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/23/08 01:11 PM

BTW, since some of us do not find it all that easy get the drift of what "they" are trying to say, would it be too much to ask popes J and/or TT: Would you give us some of the names of the books, writers and authorities that you respect and think of as your mentors? Or is this too much of a secret?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/23/08 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BTW, since I do not find it all that easy get the drift of what you are trying to say, would it be too much to ask TT: Would you give me some of the names of the books, writers and authorities that you respect and think of as your mentors?

I experience the Christ/Consciousness as my mentor and Teacher in body and in Spirit. In other words I had a physical Teacher who led me to discover the same voice that spoke thru him that speaks in me. The "I and my Father are One" kinda thing...

All Books are subject to comprehension.
But I could list a few examples of conscious works.

"The life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East" By Baird Spalding.
"The Door of Everything" By Ruby Nelson
"Ascension" by MSI
Swami Venkatesananda's "Vasishtas Yoga" A text to bring one into Unified Consciousness once one has a stabilized experience of the Absolute.
"The principle Upanishads" by Sri Radhakrishnanan
"The Upanishads" by Sri Aurobindo
"A course in Miracles."
"The Bible" Only if you have a clear experience of Unity Consciousness otherwise the meanings are distorted.
"Patanjali's Yoga Sutras" A New Translation and commentary by MSI
"The Bhagavad Gita" A New Translation and commentary By Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
"God Talks with Arjuna" The Bhagavad Gita by Paramahansa Yogananda
"THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THE RESURRECTION OF THE CHRIST WITHIN YOU" by Paramahansa Yogananda A commentary to the scripture of the Bible and Teachings of Jesus
"Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramahansa Yogananda
"The Holy Science" by Swami Sri Yukteswar
"The Aquarian Age Gospel of Jesus," the Christ of the Piscean Age
Transcribed by Levi H. Dowling

To name just a few...

Again a reminder, Literature written by Sages is pretty much useless without awareness of the absolute, for they have little or no meaning to the ego.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/23/08 11:26 PM

TT, it looks like that, over the years, I have read some of the same kinds of literature you have. Thanks for the list.

For example, in 1985-1986, with a group led by one who chose to, "become a teacher of God"--as it states on page 3 of the MANUAL FOR TEACHERS, I spent a whole year, under his leadership, looking into what the course teaches.

After we learned about who created the course, and how it began, we learned about such things as the following:

1. The fundamental "distinction between the real and the unreal."
2. The child-like nature of the ego.
3. Sin is defined as "lack of love."... "a mistake to be corrected" ... "rather than an evil to be punished."
4. The role of the body as an instrument of perception.
5. The role of the Spirit with us, which Christians call Christ.
6. The purpose of forgiveness this side of Heaven, where there are no prisoners of guilt, where we remember and become one with GOD.

Then starting with Chapter
1. THE MEANING OF MIRACLES, we went on to Chapter
31. THE FINAL VISION.

Over the year, we all came to the understanding that, eventually, we will all be required to complete the real course, the course of LIFE. How long we take to do it will be up to us. The peace of mind, the peace of GOD is, eventually there for all who choose to receive it.

This and other, books like it, including the Bible, the Koran, the Gita, the works of James, Weatherhead, Fosdick, Jung, Frankl, Maslow, Rogers, Parker, Erickson and numerous others like it have been my companions for decades ...

BTW, from among the many marginal notes I made in my text the follow three stand out: We need to take note of and "observe the self observing the ego and its creation, the body.";
"We are one with GOD...." The I added, "unitheism?".
Today I could add, "newtheism". Or even, "nowtheism".
In GOD, there is no separation, only oneness.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/23/08 11:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I spent a whole year looking into what the course teaches.

Over the year, we all came to the understanding that, eventually, we will all be required to complete the real course, the course of LIFE. How long we take to do it will be up to us.

This and other, books like it, including the Bible, the Koran, the Gita, the works of James, Weatherhead, Fosdick, Jung, Frankl, Maslow, Rogers, Parker, Erickson and numerous others like it have been my companions for decades ...


You're absolutely right about how long it takes being up to you.
Having companions for lifetimes, spending time looking into things isn't quite the same thing as doing it, is it.

I find that what my teacher said regarding the fact that 99% of the books on this planet could be burned without having any adverse affects to be quite true.
The ego bases its limitations on boundaries of accumulated knowledge never setting itself free.
One need only take the mind beyond circumscribed descriptions of God and immerse ones awareness in God to supercede any limited descriptions referenced in the written word.
It is only by availing ourselves to a greater wisdom that we begin to leave limitation and ignorance behind. Such wisdom cannot be contained in a book. And when it comes to learning how to speak with God there is no help like help that has both wisdom and experience to reveal how limited the intellect is on its own, when it decides to make belief and opinion the standard for determining wisdom and Omniscience.

One can spend lifetimes taking the mind outward into definitions of reality that the ego sees and never come close to any experience of God. Yet spend a few months or years taking the mind inward and God becomes the only reality.
Pity so many waste their years thinking they know something of God when they know nothing.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 12:16 AM

BTW, TT, how have you enjoyed the COURSE OF LIFE (Miracles) thus far? Or do I detect a kind of sadness?

I can sincerely say, I have.

Thus having enjoyed every minute--even the painful ones--of the search for truth and reality I have had thus far, now I consciously choose to spend what time I have left in this dimension--I am approaching 80--to building on the foundation of GOD, which is Love--the simple ability to will that which is good for the world, others and the self. Surely, this is not too difficult a task for most decent human beings, is it? Unless they are utterly bitter and totally cynical about life.

Posters, and readers: How do you practice the art of LOVING? Or does your ego tempt you to give in to being bitter and cynical?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 02:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT, how have you enjoyed the COURSE OF LIFE (Miracles) thus far?
I can sincerely say, I have.

I could tell you enjoyed calling me names, and I can tell you enjoy certain things over others rather than all things with equal value. And I can also tell that you have yet to reach a depth of peace that passes all of your understandings with opinion and Ideals and all of your enjoyments.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

How do you practice the art of LOVING? Or does your ego tempt you to give in to being bitter and cynical?
You tempt me quite often but as you can see it does not sway me from the truth. wink
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 03:12 AM

What names did my EGO call you?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
What names did my EGO call you?
Non that are of any importance or consequence. You loosely apply labels to yourself as you do to me with equal enjoyment.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 02:43 PM

Questions: What are labels?
When are they useful?
Not useful? Wrong?
What do they have in common with names?
If there are good intentions, what is wrong with using names and labels? When I go shopping I find them indispensable.

Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Questions: What are labels? When are they useful? Not useful? Wrong? What do they have in common with names?
Labels followed by judgment perpetuate illusions created as reaction in the outward movement of the mind, the ego.
They are useful to the ego in keeping the world divided and separate. To the ego a name and a label are synonymous. It is a way of separating the outer world from the inner Self/God.

In the inward movement of the mind all becomes one. In the outward movement of the mind all is separated into the many, duality, good and evil.

Labels are attached to systems of personal measure, which is how opinion is used to identify how much God, good, evil, worth is in an item of perception.

Those of low self esteem use labels to measure themselves against others by giving worth to the labels of measure so they can protect what little worth they attach to themselves. The greater measure in the labels one can attach to themselves the greater is the worth. Identification with moments in time, accomplishments attached to circumstance...the ego looks at itself and others in parts rather as One entity moved by One consciousness, and it names or labels these parts to reinforce ones own status and the status of those things that are separate from ones self/ego.
It is an unconscious act of the outward movement of the mind.


1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 06:00 PM

As I said, "If there are good intentions, what is wrong with using names and labels? When I go shopping I find them indispensable.

OK, I will presume that you have good intentions. To make it clear that you do I will ask: Do you?

But do you realize that, over and over again, what you write is filled with negative implications, and innuendos--a subtle kind of labeling? The following quote is packed full. For example, you say:
Quote:
Those of low self esteem use labels to measure themselves against others by giving worth to the labels of measure so they can protect what little worth they attach to themselves.
Sounds like the label one would apply to self-deprecating egotists. How do you think analytical scientists, especially those who happen to be agnostics or atheists, feel when they read this? Especially those of good moral character, who have no lack of healthy esteem and peace of mind. No wonder so many of them have become militant.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
As I said, "If there are good intentions, what is wrong with using names and labels? When I go shopping I find them indispensable.

OK, I will presume that you have good intentions. To make it clear that you do I will ask: Do you?

But do you realize that, over and over again, what you write is filled with negative implications, and innuendos--a subtle kind of labeling? The following quote is packed full. For example, you say:
Quote:
Those of low self esteem use labels to measure themselves against others by giving worth to the labels of measure so they can protect what little worth they attach to themselves.
Sounds like the label one would apply to self-deprecating egotists. How do you think analytical scientists, especially those who happen to be agnostics or atheists, feel when they read this? Especially those of good moral character, who have no lack of healthy esteem and peace of mind. No wonder so many of them have become militant.


What are good intentions of a Christed (non egoic) person and what are good intentions of the ego?
What is the essence of the Bodhisattva of Compassion?
If you can answer that you could possibly answer your own questions.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 06:44 PM

THE POWER OF INTENTION (The title of a book by Wayne Dyer)
======================
Because I believe it is very valuable to have, and to act on, the basis of good--Love-like--intentions, I will add to the above: If I say anything to you, or anyone, directly, or indirectly, which causes the feeling, even a twinge, of offense, I want the opportunity to apologize.

Just yesterday, I just happened to catch an interview on the radio (CFRB, Toronto) about the following Site: Intent.com I visited the section having to with science and spirituality.

http://www.intent.com/category/science-and-spirituality?f=4
People, like Deepak Chopra and his daughter, are involved.

It is about bringing together people of good intentions. But more than that: people who are willing to actually work together helping to make the world a better place for all.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/24/08 11:23 PM

The following is an example of what, IMO, is an egoic response from TT:
Quote:
"If you can answer that you could possibly answer your own questions."
Thanks, I learned something. The real me is amused and blesses the response.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/25/08 04:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
The following is an example of what, IMO, is an egoic response from TT:
Quote:
"If you can answer that you could possibly answer your own questions."
Thanks, I learned something. The real me is amused and blesses the response.

Now all you need is to become the real you and you could answer the question...
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/25/08 07:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


Just yesterday, I just happened to catch an interview on the radio (CFRB, Toronto) about the following Site: Intent.com I visited the section having to with science and spirituality.

http://www.intent.com/category/science-and-spirituality?f=4
People, like Deepak Chopra and his daughter, are involved.





Tools of Personal Transformation: The Role of the Ego
The above link comes from the website you posted and Deepak Chopra's ongoing discussion of enlightenment and his goal of getting people to join him in taking a vow of non-violence,
(Which includes the topics "Ego and God").
Chopra was a Student of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and although he doesn't speak of his meditation and the role it plays in observing the ego in the short video, it is somewhat informative.
I say "Somewhat" because he never really agreed with Maharishi on the subject of Self because he couldn't reach the level of experience that his teacher was leading him to. So Chopra left Maharishi to teach from his own personal experience rather than from that which Maharishi was pointing to.
Since he didn't attain a stabilized experience of Unity his experience of Self/self was limited to personality rather than universal mind.
He expresses his limitation by saying no one can tell what I am thinking or experiencing, Only I can. This is why he left Maharishi and his Teaching because he wouldn't imagine anyone could feel or experience where he was at and as a result was unable to accept comment/guidance to the effect of his growth and experience.

C'est la Vie..............
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/25/08 09:03 PM

Talking about overcoming evil with good: What kind of good do we need to practice to overcome what is now being called cyber bullying?

CYBER BULLYING. WHAT IS IT? AND WHAT OUGHT WE TO DO ABOUT IT? It is a very serious and evil problem.
============================================================
Just this AM, there was a detailed report, on the CBC Radio 1, Toronto, on CYBER BULLYING. One of the experts interviewed was the editor of Wired Magazine.

A case now before the courts demonstrates, that cyber bullying can have tragic consequences (suicide of a teenager) especially when it happens to people lacking the maturity to deal with it.

Here is the story of the case:

http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/11/vigilante_justice
================================================================
With the above in mind, I will take you back to the late 1990's, when I first went on the net. Because of a connection I had with the media, I was asked to join a forum which was then called THE WEALTHY BOOMER.

I knew nothing about writing on the Web but I willingly looked forward to the challenge of learning. Without any equivocation whatsoever, at this point, I can say: Warts and all, it has been
a ball. But I had to be willing to go through

PSEUDO COMMUNITY, CHAOS, EMPTYING TO FIND AUTHENTIC COMMUNITY
--Scott Pecks levels to community creation
==========================================================
Hosted, with no advertising, by a financial writer, who is still with the National Post, it had a very good set up. Using the familiar acronym, WWW, it had three sections:

1. WEALTH--all about money and financial issues
2. WISDOM--all about philosophy,psychology religion
3. WELL BEING--all about physical, mental and spiritual health


At first, everything was nicey nicey--like in all pseudo-communities, including the church. However, in no time, despite the nice code of conduct, in every section the fur began to fly. Bloody chaos, led by two protagonists with the help of third, broke out in every section.

THE CREATION OF CHAOS
One of the two protagonists was a scientist, and an advocate of green technologies, and a militant atheist; the other was a financial adviser and, though open in some way, was a narrow, militant theist and a Bible thumper.

Both, loved to practice the art of ridicule. They especially ridiculed new ways of thinking politics, economics, philosophy, science and religion. Also, they loved to post in a shocking and in-your-face kind of way, in all sections. To say the least: They were not gentlemen.

What a few of us really found offensive was their frequent use of vile and vitriolic language aimed at posters who dared disagree with their own dogman about wealth, wisdom and well being.

For example, frequently they used words like F&@%*, $#!T & *#@?<, including libelous insults. Ironically, the Bible-believing financial adviser used this on agnostics, atheists, a friend I found who was a teacher of neuro linguistic programming (NLP), and me, but not on his fellow protagonist and atheist in the forum. This use of language caused many gentle souls not to stay too long. Sad.

Of course I was attacked, in the same way, any time I wrote about unitheism, pneumatology, my interest in creating a barter system using complementary community currency (CCC) and the like. Also, for being too inclusive.

TAKE NOTE Interestingly, a supportive and fellow poster--an expert in the nature and function of money--and I collaborated on a series of posts in which we actually predicted: If the powers that be do not reform and regulate the way our central banks--The USA Fed and the Bank of Canada--dole out fiat money, our whole financial system, including the market is in for a rude awakening. It will collapse ... everyone will be affected by it. My partner gave many details. He was ridiculed so much that he left and joined the break-away forum.

The host of WWW, a gentleman, involved in his own church, was too busy with the WEALTH section and his work at the NP to get too much involved with moderating the second W&W. As mentioned above, in my attempt to encourage DIALOGUE and the creation of community, I got a lot of help and support from a radio reporter and a teacher of neuro linguist programming. We learned a lot from each other. Both of used were ridiculed, regularly.

Of course, the diatribe--the negative and insulting cyber bullying continued. Things did calm down a bit when one of the ranters, the scientist and green advocate, died of a stroke.

THE RESULT OF EMPTYING--GETTING IT ALL OUT
==========================================
Eventually, in their search for peace, a group in the WEALTH section left and formed their own Site--no negative, or insulting, rants allowed. They even asked me to participate. I became happily busy elsewhere.

Around that time, the host of WWW, realizing that chaos had destroyed the WWW community, gave notice that he would take the Site off line. We were given time to copy and save anything we wished to save.

BEWARE THE EQUIVOCATORS
=======================
In all this keep in mind that, besides the outright ranters, there were, of course, those who wrote post after post of boorish, clumsy, undiplomatic and "opaque" verbiage, often filled with equivocations. They wrote as if they were masters of the Bible, the mind of others, and in direct touch with God.

Such give the impression: "Only we really understand the mind of God, "The Secrets" of the ages. We are here to give the answers, not to dialogue with you and answer your questions."

Even when I responded in general agreement--when, now and then (on the rare occasion), they did make a good comment--they never just said, "Thanks." Using their usual verbiage they responded as if to say: "Well! You have a long way to go, yet, before you rise above the ego, like we have, and are at one with God, like we are."

Like all cyber bullies, such posters wrote to find fault, not to help build authentic community. This and the negative ranting led to the fall of the Wealthy Boomer. Maybe the fall of THE WEALTHY BOOMER was deserved. It certainly presaged, was an omen, a premonition of the current financial crisis in which we now find ourselves. Yes, the WWW--a pseudo community--died, as did our pseudo economy, thank GOD.

One final point: Bullying, of any kind--whether it be in the home, the community, the nation, the world, or the Web, destroys community--the real source of all wealth. It is a destructive evil.

But if we persist, authentic community is there for the building--the only way to find it. And I am happy to report that since WWW I have found more than one. The good news is: We can overcome the evil of community destruction by the good action of community building.

Question: How many SAGG members ARE community builders?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/25/08 10:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Talking about overcoming evil with good: What kind of good do we need to practice to overcome what is now being called cyber bullying?

Getting a grip on ego to overcome the labels, superstitions and delusions created by ego, that allow one to rage against the universe, prolonging the idea of being victims to ones own creation would be a great start.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


IMO, in GØD, all things--even the apparently chaotic and evil--work together, ultimately, for Good (Paul).
IMO, most people do not believe in and act on a "god" based on the reality of the universe--physical, mental and spiritual--all that is.

They offer lip service to an idol which they create in their minds. And this is the problem. Most people find it really difficult to trust such an idolatrous concept of god so they go about living lives of despair, dominated by fear, uncertainty and doubt. This of course is the kind of idol which is an easy target for atheists to knock down. Without having to become an atheist, I gave up this god of the psyche, this egoic-kind of god, decades ago.

The whole drama you are rallying yourself around is just that, lip service you manage to give to reality and your opinion of God.

Let's look at some of these principles you posted earlier to gain a greater perspective of belief in victims and your drama concerning Cyber Bullying.
THE ELEVEN PRINCIPLES OF METAPSYCHIATRY

1. Thou shalt have no other interests before the good of God, which is spiritual blessedness.

One would have to find God in even the most distasteful of personal experiences, to understand how something good could possibly come of what the ego is identifying with.

Sometimes there aint no gain without a little bit of pain created from the loss of ignorance.


2. Take no thought for what should be or what should not be; seek ye first to know the good of God, which already is.

This would be tantamount to being able to move past the personal beliefs and opinions to take what one feels, blow it out of proportion and then make up dramatic stories to justify ones beliefs in being victimized by the outside. God can only be experienced from the inside out. Recognizing ones ego in the drama takes humility, and the ability to recognize that everything one experiences is of ones own creation.
Once one becomes one with God, one can create goodness in the experience of diversity rather than the psychodrama of fear and underlying beliefs in demons. The outside always reflects what one holds as truth inside.
You see what you are. In this case Rev. You choose to make real what you believe is real.
Ego knows only to improve God rather than to unite and work with God.


3. There is no interaction anywhere, there is only Omniaction everywhere.

Interesting statement is it not? There is NO interaction anywhere, only Omniaction.

Omniaction would necessarily mean that nothing happens that is not of Omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.


4. Yes is good, but no is also good.

Obviously ones opinion doesn't have any force against its opposite if differing opinions have equal value. Somewhere in Time and Space Someone thinks Cyber Bullying is an example of free speech and expression. The voice of God. And it was good..

5. God helps those who let Him.

Can't be helped by God if God aint present.


6. If you know what, you know how.

Some people know what, but that what aint the what that knows how..


7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.

That would include cyber bullying... There are no victims..


8. Problems are lessons designed for our edification.

In reality then, lessons are not problems, but gifts for our growth in consciousness.


9. Reality cannot be experienced or imagined; it can, however, be realized.

This is particularly revealing. Opinion is an illusion of ego, therefor it is not a clear perception of reality. The intellect cannot realize Truth it can only rationalize from emotional attachment to experience and how experience directly affects the emotional stability the ego tries to create and manage.


10. The understanding of what really is, abolishes all that seems to be.

Knowing God abolishes all ideas of what God is and isn't.


11. Do not show your pearls to unreceptive minds, for they will demean them.

Those who do not know God react to the outside as it bullies them. Then in delusion they turn God into something evil.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

IMO, most people do not believe in and act on a "god" based on the reality of the universe--physical, mental and spiritual--all that is.

No they don't, they pay more respect to all that isn't God because it is foremost in their experiences of reality.
Right Rev? wink
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/26/08 04:38 AM


Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Question: How many SAGG members ARE community builders?

By communities do you mean castles of sand, beliefs and democratic morality?
Or do you mean God realized self aware, individuals who have not become dependent on others for their feelings of self worth, living the dream of unity with spirit and examples to all humanity?

I find that community is often defined within the boundaries of opinionated demographics, based on social beliefs and standards infused with double standards, or varying opinions and prejudice.
What one thinks is best another thinks is impertinent to ones own beliefs.
So communities are rallied around common perceptions of outward appearances, such as security or status, or visual appearance.
Being that opinion is tightly protected neighbors often will exchange verbal pleasantries and keep real feelings buried until they are in private.
With the evolution of Social mores in a constant state of flux, what is often emphasized is relative happiness even if it is a compromise to the true psychological and spiritual development of conscious awareness in the ability to realize God/Good in everything.

Jesus was a community builder and he labored to exemplify the True nature of love that destroys ignorance so that the many would not suffer at the hands of limitation, in personal delusions of opinion and belief and to realize the flow of creation in the Universe.

Matthew 10
34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

He came to build a community of spiritually infused human awareness rather than the temporary communities of opinion and changing belief.
He also knew the ego was stubborn and that the seeds he was planting would not change the world in the short time he spent on the Earth, visible and in body.
2000 years have passed and still humanity clings to illusions of fear and of separation from God in victim consciousness.


What you put your attention on grows.
If you seek to fix what you believe is wrong with the world, even with good intentions you become part of the problem.
The world cannot be healed from the level of thinking that makes it unhealthy.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/26/08 07:15 PM

There is an interesting dialogue going on at the newly-designed WONDER CAFE--a discussion forum of the United Church of Canada:

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/reli...#comment-297031
I just got started here this week.

Thanks for the dialogue, so far! And dialogue is the mode I prefer. Debates, especially about politics, the economy and religion, are usually zero-sum games. On the other hand, open dialogue--the humble and honest sharing of knowledge and ideas--can be a win/win game.

THE NATURE OF GOD
=================
With this is mind I don't think Jesus ever said: "I am God and you are not." In John 4:24, in his interesting dialogue with the Samaritan woman, and in response to her question about the whereabouts of God, says: "God is Spirit." One can imagine that he added that God is like the very air (the Greek for air, wind, breath is 'pneuma' ) we breathe. "God is like the very breath of life we all, including you Samaritans, breathe."

Yes, in John 10:30, he does say: "The Father and I are one." Interestingly, the Aramaic for father is 'abwoon'--literally meaning the Source of the breath of life, not unlike what 'pneuma' means. Obviously, Jesus is not asking us to think of God as a human-like father.

YOU ARE GODS
============
But what is truly amazing is the implication of verse 34, where he says: "It is written in your own Law that God said, "You are gods." ? Then he goes on to point to his own loving actions--orthopraxy?--as evidence of his oneness with God. Then, by implication, he invites all to be partners with him in the same kind of orthopraxy--loving acts. Orthodox beliefs have their value, but only when they inspire us to live out the principle that "God is love" (I John).

WE ARE ALL ONE IN THE ONENESS OF GOD
====================================
Clearly this is the same message of John 17: 20-26--the passage from which our church gets the words we have on our crest: "That all may be one." And, IMO, this has little or nothing to do with our being part of one world-wide organized and institution called The One True Church.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/26/08 11:21 PM

More about overcoming evil with good
====================================
UNITHEISM is a theology--that is, a knowledge-based concept of GOD--which actually inspires me to act on the idea that, with GOD, all good things--physically, mentally and spiritually--are possible. If the word 'GOD' offends you, use one of your own invention. The bottom line is: what you would like life to be like. It is your choice.

My interest in UNITHEISM--which says that GOD is one with us and we are one with GOD--therefore, is not just academic. It is about exploring the practical values connected with this concept, which will help us, and our suffering world, find the joy-filled and "abundant life" of which Jesus, and others before and after him, spoke.

Using the acronym FREUDE--the German for joy--let me see If I can make myself clear.

By the way, Beethoven's Ode to Joy--part of his great Ninth Symphony, begins with the words, Freude, freude ... In my opinion, without GOD there is no joy. There is only fear, resistance, envy, uncertainty, depression and ego, the ultimate enemy of our peace of mind.
===================================
First the bad news about the enemy:

F stands for ego-based fears and feelings (Sad and happy). The un-observed ego is in a constant state of fear--fear of failure and that we are missing out on finding the fun of life.

R stands for ego-based resistance. Our pride tends to cause us to resist doing the things we need, and ought, to do for ourselves and others.

E stands for envy--coveting things we think we can't have unless with take them from others, including our family, friends, our community and the world. It is the root of all crime, including war, terrorism and the like.

U stands for the ego-based feeling of uncertainty. It arises out of the unobserved mind. It is the feeling of unease that we get when we feel unaware of what is truly real. When we reach a pure state of consciousness we will no longer feel unaware.

D stands for the ego-based feeling of despair, the loss of hope. It is a very destructive emotion, leading to the depths of depression--the common cold of mental diseases.

E stands for the ego, the enemy within--the ego-based mind, the thinker, the psyche--which is out to destroy our peace of mind.

Like fire, the ego can be a great servant, but a mean and destructive master, especially when we allow it to run our lives. Left to its own devices this man-made self, this unobserved mind, will stand between us and keep us separate from all that is good--GOD-like. Egotism is a dreadful mental disease. As already indicated, it is the mother of envy, the mother of all counter-productive conflicts--crimes of passion, wars, terrorism, financial crashes, you name it ...
==============================================================
NOW FOR THE GOOD NEWS.

Can you imagine the following?

By making the following simple choice--and that is all that it takes, a choice--one can take, "the road less traveled by" and like the poet said: "make all the difference".

Right now, I make the choice with you: "Beginning now, I choose to live in a state of conscious awareness of all my physical and mental--that is, somatic and psychosomatic--feelings.

I choose to connect with GOD--By the way, atheists, agnostics and others, choose your own word here--the Source of all the knowledge, wisdom, power and Love.

When I do this, my body and mind (soma and the psyche) will then become loving servants--no longer the enemy.
============================================
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/26/08 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


Can you imagine the following?

By making the following simple choice--and that is all that it takes, a choice--one can take, "the road less traveled by" and like the poet said: "make all the difference".

Right now, I make the choice with you: "Beginning now, I choose to live in a state of conscious awareness of all my physical and mental--that is, somatic and psychosomatic--feelings.

I choose to connect with GOD--By the way, atheists, agnostics and others, choose your own word here--the Source of all the knowledge, wisdom, power and Love.

When I do this, my body and mind (soma and the psyche) will then become loving servants--no longer the enemy.
============================================


This Self hypnotic approach to a goal is often used by many to achieve wealth, popularity, health and happiness.
Often there is an undercurrent of unconscious thought in belief which sabotages the positive affirmations.
Willing yourself to be ego-less from the ego when one hasn't the experience of being without ego seems similar to willing yourself to be a concert pianist without having ever played the piano doesn't it?

Taking a positive approach can be a great choice but often when one does this on their own and without some kind of reinforcement the opposing thoughts return the awareness to the place of conditioning and habit.
Many have spent a great amount of money with psychologists to try and unravel the many programs of the mind like removing layers of an onion.
A psychologist will tell you that medication and therapy according to their knowledge will be necessary to reveal alternatives to repetitive self defeating thought patterns. Simply willing yourself to be different will not remove the cause but it might address some of the symptoms.
What makes you believe this is going to work Rev.? It hasn't worked for you so far.
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 12:07 AM

TT wrote:
"What makes you believe this is going to work Rev.? It hasn't worked for you so far."

That's a bit harsh TT. A very personal and rather nasty remark I think, not justified by Rev's post, which I presume it was addressing.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 01:24 AM

It's a very serious question and pertinent.
Being direct is honest if not harsh to someones illusions and beliefs regarding affirmations and the psychology of unconscious thoughts and stress in the nervous system.

What makes one believe they can will away the ego when it has never worked before?
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 03:52 AM

Ellis, thanks. To me you come across as one who knows how to put your ego to good service, while not allowing the ego of anyone else to push you around. Good for you!

No doubt you have noticed that TT's question is a rhetorical one. It is obviously not a question from a sincere seeker asking for information. When anyone ask me such a question I alway respond: the answer you want is contained within the question. Or I could also answer as follows
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
...Now all you need is to become the real you and you could answer the question...
BTW, point out to me where I said: I will will away my ego?
BTW 2: I seek enlightenment for everyone, including TT.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=bodhisattva+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.mandriva:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Ellis, thanks. To me you come across as one who knows how to put your ego to good service, while not allowing the ego of anyone else to push you around. Good for you!

Of course it comes across that way. You have no objective experience of your ego, other than surface concepts of belief and opinion that are created from the ego and having read some books and articles. Reading doesn't create experience and without experience of ego mastery there is no wisdom.

It's just as unlikely to get apples from a pear tree as it is to free yourself from the separation of God in others by simply pasting a vision of oneness on top of all that you find discord in by imagining the concepts of ego from reading an article or two.


Originally Posted By: Revlgking


No doubt you have noticed that TT's question is a rhetorical one.

No doubt you imagined it was, but it was not rhetorical.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BTW, point out to me where I said: I will will away my ego?

How about this quote:
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


E stands for the ego, the enemy within--the ego-based mind, the thinker, the psyche--which is out to destroy our peace of mind.

By making the following simple choice--and that is all that it takes, a choice--one can take, "the road less traveled by" and like the poet said: "make all the difference".

Right now, I make the choice with you: "Beginning now, I choose to live in a state of conscious awareness of all my physical and mental--that is, somatic and psychosomatic--feelings.

I choose to connect with GOD--By the way, atheists, agnostics and others, choose your own word here--the Source of all the knowledge, wisdom, power and Love.

When I do this, my body and mind (soma and the psyche) will then become loving servants--no longer the enemy.


Simply stating the idea of making the choice to turn ego from enemy to servant from the ego never has and never will happen when the thought and the choice to follow the thought is made from the ego. If it wasn't made from the ego/enemy the choice would be redundant.

So I should rephrase my statement to clarify what I meant by saying you are trying to will away your ego.
To be perfectly clear you are imagining you know the difference in ego being the enemy and the Servant from reading something, and that you could know how to turn the ego/enemy into the servent, by stating an affirmation. And imagining that imagining will make it so.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BTW 2: I seek enlightenment for everyone, including TT.

you would necessarily have to become enlightened to know what it was that you wanted for everyone including me. Googling Bhodisattva in Wikipedia won't get you enlightenment or any understanding in the experience of Bhodisattva.

It's one thing to read about stuff, copy and paste what you have read and another to live what you speak of.
Words resonate from levels of understanding and reveal a state of mind.

What is self evident in your dialogue is that God, Ego and enlightenment are still concepts drawn from a tendency to store words with belief and opinion wrapped around them. Anybody can read and memorize stuff. What sets the master and the memory of concepts derived from opinion apart from each other is resonance with Truth absolute.
God is not an opinion. Opinion is ego. Enlightenment does not come from memory and opinion. When one is freed from opinion and attains perfect memory of Universal mind, that is something.

You're still following a 2000 year old habit Rev.
Remember the Pharisees....
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 06:20 AM

Don't get discouraged, TT. And stop picking on the Pharisee you see in the mirror. Even judgement-filled people trapped their egos can serve ... at least as bad examples!

BTW, If you don't see the Joke, I will ask Kate to remove it, okay? laugh
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 07:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Even judgement-filled people trapped in their egos can serve ... at least as bad examples!
That'd be the reflection of imagined Truth...

There is only God. wink
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 04:13 PM

TT opines:
Quote:
Opinion is ego.
So what! Opinion is ego! Well then, this includes everything we write here, including what you just wrote.

IMO, Ellis, has a right to offer her opinion. So do we all--as long as we do not allow an arrogant ego to run and ruin our lives, it can be a useful tool.

If we let it, it will make slaves of us. This condemns us to living in a constant state of fear, resistance, envy, uncertainty, depression--all ego-driven emotions. Note the acronym FREUDE, which, ironically, is the German word for joy.
More on this, later.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT opines:
Quote:
Opinion is ego.
So what! opinion is ego! Well then, this includes everything we write here, including what you just wrote.

IMO, Ellis, has a right to offer her opinion. So do we all--as long as we do not allow an arrogant ego to run and ruin our lives, it can be a useful tool.

If we let it, it will make slaves of us. This condemns us to living in a constant state of fear, resistance, envy, uncertainty, depression--all ego-driven emotions. Note the acronym FREUDE, which, ironically, is the German word for joy.
More on this, later.


From ego and Opinion you have become a slave. Fear drives reason and Opinion, envy, judgment and all emotions

Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Opinions made from the identification of duality drives energies that produce lifetimes of karmic pathways in duality. The wheel of Samsara, birth and rebirth.
When One does not know God the mind moves from textbook definitions and opinion driven from ego. God is not an opinion


Lk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Those who pay lip service and offer opinion to God rather than Immerse the mind in God can not see reality clearly and so pass over judgment that is true. For ego judgment is made from the intellect saturated in past memories and ideals. Opinion that is driven from ego identification.

Jn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Clear sight and guidance comes from the Holy spirit and that spirit flows through the Son of God. The Christed man who's intellect is saturated in Spirit.

Judgment from God is wisdom and love.
Judgment (Opinion) From man is born of illusions created by what the ego calls reality.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The dead are those who are spinning the intellect on the wheel of Samsara. The wheel of birth and death. Incarnating time and time again because of energies created which are attached to the body and the ego.
Some will awaken to the Christ within and as such begin to hear the voice of spirit. Those that leave the world of the body behind for the spirit shall become reborn and shall have the ability to be the voice that is "The Son of God."


26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


The Son of Man truly lives when he is reborn as the Son of God. Then he is no longer dead (EGO) but alive as Spirit.


27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


Because the Son of Man is still a creation of God, with Free Will, God has given the Son of Man the ability to transmute the illusions of ego and to take the awareness into Truth Absolute.
There he can be reborn without the contstraints of ego and the beliefs in God as opinion.


Jn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Jesus having immersed his intellect in Truth Absolute, washed away all personality of ego. Opinion had left the room.
All thoughts were of wisdom and love of God. Jesus' awareness was without ego and with God.

Jn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Live in Spirit (live as the son of God) not in human ideals and opinion. For to be human (the son of man) is to be ego and opinion.


Jn 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.


For if I am Christed (Without ego, living from spirit) I am witness to the father and the Father witnesseth me. I and my Father are one. Universal mind (God) is fully manifest in form.


Jn 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Interesting how Jesus mixed words so as to demonstrate his meanings rather than definitions of textbook ideals and opinion. Those that can hear know he never contradicted himself.

For Truth and by Truth he came into the world of Humans and their ego so that those who only saw through the eyes of belief and opinion might lose their egoic sight to become blinded to the identification with human being. And to be reborn into Being, as the Sons and daughters of God.



1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


Thru Jesus, the spirit (That was Holy or of right mind) spoke to the heart/soul of man, through the ego, ( to those that could hear and see ), to guide them beyond "human being" and "opinion" to leave the individuality of opinion and belief, and to become what they had lost in awareness and being. To take the illusory clothes of identity with limitation and mortality and to be of the One mind of Spirit that they are.



1 Cor 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.


For me (Jesus) it is of no consequence, Opinion. For it is the illusion of ego and human being. I myself (Jesus) do not see myself and the world thru opinion, or human judgment. I only see God.


Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

If that which you see of yourself in the reflection of opinion finally becomes visible as ego. Cast your human being out. That is not how God sees you but is how opinion and ego creates illusions of who you and others are. If you do not do this, all awareness is cast into the wheel of Samsara, Birth and rebirth. Your Karma will keep you locked into opinion life after life. That is what is also know as Hell.
One will only find growth, (Profit) by losing ones ego and opinion.


Mt 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


One will never see clearly from opinion and emotions that are "human being" as the Son of man. In order to see clearly and have the judgment that is Gods judgment, the ego must be left behind and the intellect immersed in spirit. Only then can one become useful to others that are locked in the ignorance of opinion and ego.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 07:59 PM

To sleep, perchance to dream: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........!!!!!!!
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/27/08 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
To sleep, perchance to dream: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........!!!!!!!
That is the ego. IT is the mind asleep. Dreaming illusions of opinion and belief.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:23 AM

The above is the BIG EGO, giving orders, as usual. I am a little egg, getting ready to hatch and have lots of fun. BEWARE!!!:D, laugh
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:26 AM

The above is the BIG EGO, giving orders, as usual. I am a little egg, just getting ready to hatch and have fun. BEWARE!!!
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:28 AM

No orders just facts.
Those that refuse God see only what they wish to.

Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:29 AM

Funny facts?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:31 AM

To those that do not hear or see...

Incomprehensible.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:38 AM

Incomprehensible? Describing your EGO, eh?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Incomprehensible? Describing your EGO, eh?


No, the unknown to a little egg that hasn't hatched and experienced real life.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:43 AM

Right on!!! Like a certain mentor I know; I am getting ready to be a genius laugh ................and have another looooooooooong sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep !!!!!
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Right on!!! Like a mentor I know; I am getting ready to be a genius laugh................and have another looooooooooong sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep !!!!!

You'd need to wake up before you could get ready to sleep again.
Unless you just dream of waking and sleeping.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 04:50 AM

Please, be a nice and loving ego and do not disturb.....................
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 05:40 AM

Back to your dreams little egg, it's not time for you to wake up yet.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/28/08 11:33 PM

Ellis, et all, GOD within&beyond me just revealed this: While a friendly battle of wits can be an enjoyable experience for all Love-motivated people willing to have a friendly dialogue, keep in mind:
"Always be just, and fair! Never take on people who are half-armed. Let them hoist themselves on their own arrogant petard! Which they will do soon enough."

Good advice!!!! laugh
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/29/08 02:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Ellis, et all, GOD within&beyond me just revealed this: While a friendly battle of wits can be an enjoyable experience for all Love-motivated people willing to have a friendly dialogue, keep in mind:
"Always be just, and fair! Never take on people who are half-armed. Let them hoist themselves on their own arrogant petard! Which they will do soon enough."

Good advice!!!! laugh
The God within you and beyond you is divided and still isn't revealing itself in everything you hear, see and do, but continuing to segment reality into Good and evil.
Not the God you keep proclaiming is the real God of everything.

God should treat God as God don'tcha think? As the potential that is God, rather than the limitation and projection that is opinion and belief, or the fear and judgment of more or less "God", being in what you see and experience.

Still a lot of personality in that God of yours, not unlike the jealous or judgmental God so often relegated to religious extremes.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/30/08 02:55 PM

WHEN IS THE DOING OF NOTHING AN EVIL THING TO DO?
Isn't idolatry just the belief in a do-thing god?
=================================================
As English/Irish politician/philosopher, Edmund Burke said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/burke/
=========================================
WHEN GOOD PEOPLE DO NOTHING LOOK WHAT HAPPENS. I remember hearing the news of this when it happened:

In March 1964, a woman was murdered in a street in New York City.

There were 38 witnesses to the killing of Kitty Genovese, but no one intervened. Only one called the police, but it was too late for Kitty Genovese. Thirty-eight people did not want to get involved. They were the silent bystanders.

The killing of Kitty Genovese shocked the United States. It revealed a society so anonymous and devolved that Good Samaritans apparently no longer existed. The Genovese case generated a substantial reaction, and led to the framing of Good Samaritan laws which remain as statutes of most US states.
------------------------------------------------
This means that in most jurisdictions it is not lawful to do nothing.

But what about arrogant do-gooders, those who insist that only they have the right to tell people what to believe and how to think and act?
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/30/08 03:06 PM

FOR ANYONE WHO WOULD LIKE TO JOIN THOSE WHO INTEND TO DO SOMETHING:
http://www.intent.com
OR
http://www.intent.com/user/2495/manage/friends/accept/193?sort=abc
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/30/08 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


But what about arrogant do-gooders, those who insist that only they have the right to tell people what to believe and how to think and act?
I haven't met any such people. Nor would I think I would.

I guess that would be the difference between seeing through devolved eyes and evolved eyes. When one sees evil around them there is evil within them.

It would make sense don'tcha think? In order to bring God into vision one would have to be able to see the God in people to bring the God in people out into action. Otherwise the focus to change the world is from the vision of evil in the world.
What you focus on grows.

First you would have to know God, rather than conceptualize God from the limits of what opinion tells you is God like and evil.

Personality often uses prejudice to include God as ones prejudice. But God is not prejudiced. Only ego sees God thru prejudice but then that isn't really God but prejudice.


To find the order that is God in the world one would first have to know God to recognize God's order.
To see the arrow being drawn back as the force for change.
Often the ego decides that the change is God out of control and from the illusions of opinion and belief try to become a better God so that change is circumvented for the ego's vision of perfection. It's a common mistake of the ego to try and take the position of bettering God, because God is out of control and not doing what God need do for humanity. So instead of being one is always doing, setting what is out of order according to opinion, into the vision of order held in the mind and belief of ego.

Don't get me wrong, taking action is not a bad thing, God is action but often the mind is so caught up in some idea that being is not enough because being means to be complacent. Such is the ego's idea of being.
God is also stillness and from stillness of mind one moves forward with wisdom that is God's wisdom. Then reaction doesn't take place.

There is a saying: "If you seek to change the world because you see evil then you become part of the problem."

Life as one see's it is the reflection of ones ideals and beliefs. That reflection for the ego is full of good and evil. It is that tree of knowledge represented by the story of the garden of Eden. When man took mind out of the Garden (the still absolute) and immersed it in the activity of belief and opinion the world was filled with the images of what lives inside of man as man believes man is..

Once, back in the late '60's Maharishi Mahesh Yogi spoke in a University in California to a group of intellectuals (students).
A question was posed by a young student to Maharishi.
He asked, "Maharishi, there are starving people in the world, why would you strive to teach meditation instead of feeding the hungry?"
Maharishi responded.."If you teach a hungry man how to meditate he will become a Happy Hungry Man."

The answer at first would appear to go against logic. The egoic mind sees no value in starvation or hunger regardless of ones state of mind. But the value is limitless.
When the mind of a hungry person is steadfast in egoic belief and opinion that the world is against them there is no hope. They are victims to society and because they have become so attached to the idea that they have no power within themselves to live in a world that has not given them the power to live, they become powerless of themselves.

Yet let a man discover the power within themselves thru the process of self discovery and they become the light to achieve limitless possibilities. A hungry man who has such insight and energy will not wait for others to take care of him, nor feel sorry for himself or others. That person becomes filled with the potential of God and as a matter of reality in Gods vision and exaltation becomes a clear guide for others who have become dependent on others to make the world for them instead of making the world from the potential within them.

The mind that sees Good and evil places the ability of man within the limits of victimization, and helplessness. The mind that sees only God sees only the potential of mans ability to become One with all that is when the mind has temporarily become displaced thru belief and opinion. All that is needed is to clear the vision and man becomes Self sufficient and a boon to all those who have lost their sight and hearing.

So how to help humanity? As an enabler of division helplessness and evil, or as the mind of God?
One would have to be of the Mind of God rather than of opinion and belief, to know just what is needed for any situation, by clealry seeing the situation and the perfection in each situation.
In the words of a song regarding poker: You got to know when to hold em and when to fold em as well as when to play your cards.
You can do that from wisdom and clear vision being receptive to what is being played or from opinion and belief, second guess the table and react from the projected evils dwelling within the mind of ego.

C'est la vie
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/30/08 08:24 PM

Anyone reading the book, The Third Jesus, by Deepak Chopra?
BTW, DC was raised a Hindu, educated in Catholic schools. He developed a deep respect for all good religion.
----------------------------------------------------------
A MUST READ FOR THOSE WHO INTEND TO BE AT ONE WITH GOD AND BE EMPOWERED TO DO THAT WHICH IS GOOD--PHYSICALLY MENTALLY AND SPIRITUALLY.

In his Introduction, DC tells us that his book is about, "... what I think the New Testament actually means, astonishing things stated in plain words."

He begins his opening chapter, REDEEMING THE REDEEMER, with the short sentence, "Jesus is in trouble." And later he writes, "... a cloud of confusion hangs over the message of Jesus."

This has come about, he says, because there is more than one Jesus; there are three Jesuses. "One is historical" a rabbi (teacher) one, swept away by history, about whom we know next to nothing, especially what he did during the twenty years not mentioned in the Bible.

"Another is the one appropriated by Christianity" the one spoken of in any number of Christian churches, in many different ways; by Bible scholars and theologians.

He goes on,"The third Jesus, the one this book is about, is as yet so unknown that even the most devout Christians don't suspect that he exists. Yet he is the Christ we cannot--and must not--ignore". With emphasis, he writes: Jesus intended to save the world by showing others the path to God-consciousness.

He writes that this, not to diminish the first two Jesuses, but, rather, to bring them into sharper focus. DC points out that his goal is have a direct relationship with God, "that is personal and present", like Jesus had.

No matter where I pick up his book it is very gratifying to find myself saying saying to myself, over and over again: That makes sense to me, no matter what the issue. Here are some of the hot-button ones:
Nature, Society, Relationships, Psychology, Emotions, Behaviour, Biology, Metaphysics.

For me, what he writes about all these and other issues has about it the ring of truth. None of his, what one critic calls his, "provocative insights" provoke me. Obviously we are one the same path to enlightenment--GOD-consciousness
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 11/30/08 11:12 PM

Do you think, Rev, that everyone has his/her own personal perception of Jesus? At least within the Protestant chuches and the community at large that may be true, although arguments about doctrine spoil the message in too many religious centres (and not just Christian ones).

Jesus' teachings are a solid foundation for a good life, and it would not be possible to act in an evil manner if one followed them, and the same is true for the foundation beliefs in Islam, Judaism and others, acknowledging as they do the Golden Rule. Over-interpretation by priests, shamans, rabbis and mullahs is often responsible for the areas which seem to be discriminatory and sometimes downright distasteful, even evil. The terrorists of today are not the first soldiers (or people) to wage war in the name of their god, doing evil acts in the name of their religions.

Good luck with the enlightenment stuff, but on the streets many are still dying for their beliefs. That cannot be right.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/01/08 04:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


For me, what he writes about all these and other issues has about it the ring of truth. None of his, what one critic calls his, "provocative insights" provoke me. Obviously we are one the same path to enlightenment--GOD-consciousness

It is most obvious that all are on a path of enlightenment that are coming to know God.
Differing opinions about what that looks like from belief is what dilutes the essence of the path and creates discomfort within the emotional body that the ego attaches itself to.

When one engages themselves with Teacher/Spirit all that is sacred in the path has to be given up so that the path can dissolve into what is called the "Pathless path" or the state of "being" when the path is no longer, but what is, is God.

The ego is very comfortable reading and listening to what it idealizes in words and opinion, leaving its beliefs and personal opinions intact.
The ego does not realize until the path dissolves into Self that all is the Self. There is no one that one engages or joins with in being on the path. All is but one and the reflections are drawn to the personal experience by the evolving soul.
The Self brings to the surface all that the soul is ready for in its evolution. It is the Self that creates what the ego experiences as both comfort and discomfort, like mindedness and opposition, that which does and doesn't provoke.

It is much more likely that those things that provoke you are going to create the change necessary to expanding awareness than those things that help you remain complacent within the mind that leaves the ego intact with its beliefs and opinion. It is that which provokes you that challenges complacency in belief and opinion so that you can see it differently than you would consistently idealize in your present state as being full of God.

individuals not saturated in fullness of the One idealize Groups that are opinion and belief drawn together, to gain strength in the feeling of togetherness to do battle with those opinions and beliefs that do not meet their opinion and belief. Battle meaning the reaction or conflict that takes place in the arena of belief.
How it (the battle) manifests is both subtle and extreme. From disbelief and close mindedness to the physical expression of war and rage.
Until one comes to know God in all things, ones path is filled with thought provoking ideas that tempt the ego into loosening its grip on opinion and belief.
If there is no contrast the mind cannot be cognizant of its own evolution and is not on a path but steadfast in the illusions of belief, without the ability to hear or see anything but what one has wrapped around the absolute infinite one in finite ideals that are the projections of ones own separate personality.


Originally Posted By: Ellis
.... on the streets many are still dying for their beliefs. That cannot be right.

It cannot last forever but it does serve the evolution of the soul to understand what it means to put your finger into the fire of belief and projection of personal opinion and to try to make that God absolute...

You might or might not enjoy these short videos by Andrew Cohen Rev.

On enlightenment

Conscious participation in Consciousness

If God knocks are you ready..

Ego is a closed loop

AC & DC in discussion..

Threshold of transformation

being and becoming
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/01/08 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Do you think, Rev, that everyone has his/her own personal perception of Jesus?
Of course! The same is true for any concept, including that of gods, God, GOD, whatever.

Quote:
Good luck with the enlightenment stuff...
At This point, along with many others who are taking this GOD-consciousness path, I have had, and am having, a lot of good luck. Have you the answer as to why anyone, but a fool, would choose ignorance over education?

[/quote] ... but on the streets many are still dying for their beliefs... [/quote] Of course! Ignorance-based, or unenlightened, beliefs are deadly! And they will continue to inflict suffering, pain and death until the victims get tired of it and wake up.
Quote:
That [pain, suffering and death] cannot be right.
Of course it isn't right! So let's all wake up, now, and do something about it. What are we waiting for, Christmas?

Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/01/08 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Quote:
That [pain, suffering and death] cannot be right.
Of course it isn't right! So let's all wake up, now, and do something about it. What are we waiting for, Christmas?


Knowing how to wake up and what you would experience being awake and what you would do while being awake is always good conversation, if not simply entertaining.. blush

I think if we reword Ellis' question a bit.. shocked .. whistle....

Do you think, Rev, that everyone has his/her own personal perception of "enlightenment" or "waking up" and upon awakening will still have their own personal opinion about what to do, to stop suffering within the experience of enlightenment? confused


Or what would change in the personality of opinion and belief, that would change what one does or does not, to change the world?

Oh and most importantly...These are not Rhetorical questions. wink
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/01/08 10:13 PM

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ALL THE MODERN GURUS OF CONSCIOUSNESS--and I mean this with respect--including ANDREW COHEN, DEEPAK CHOPRA, ECKHART TOLLE and others--like many others before them--all agree that each and every one of us is personally responsible for who we are, what perceive--that is, take in through the senses--with our minds. We are also responsible for what we choose to perceive and become attentively aware of. Of course we are also responsible for what we do with our perceptions.
------------------------------------------------
MY FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH A GURU WAS GOOD
========================================
Keep in mind that I began reading about what it means to be a fully conscious human being and be able to rise above limiting circumstances since I was in high school in 1944-46. Reading a then popular magazine called POPULAR MECHANICS I saw an add about how to have a better mind and how to be a successful student and career. I persuaded a brother, who was 10 years my senior and had similar interests, to put up the money--he had a job in the mines--to buy a correspondence course called MENTALPHYSICS.

The system was developed by an Edwin John Dingle (1881-1972). He defined his system as a synthesis of all he had learned as a young man in his travels in the Orient, especially Tibet. Dingle began teaching informally in 1927 in New York City. His early classes grew into the Institute of Mentalphysics in 1934.

Mentalphysics is seen as a super yoga. Dingle taught his students a set of what are believed to be universal truths and a system of practice built around pranayama (breathing), diet (vegetarian), exercises, meditation, and a system of working with one's own particular body chemistry ...
http://www.answers.com/topic/mentalphysics

What we learned in this program inspired both of us. It gave me the confidence to rise above some very difficult circumstances, including poverty, and make the effort to get a university education and have a happy career, which I did.

From the course, my brother, who had little formal education--the one, BTW, who made most of my Christmas toys--and I learned: Human beings need not be puppets on the strings of some celestial puppet master (God) or victims of some fate set by the stars, the gods, nature or nurture. We also learned that we had to take personal responsibility for who we are and who will become, now and for all time.

My brother's career? While I was in university he went on to become a skilled welder. He worked in the iron ore mines on http://www.bellisland.net When they closed in 1966, he got a good job as a valued welder with the city of St. John's, for the rest of his life. He lived to be 78, and, surrounded by his family, died happily.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/02/08 12:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ALL THE MODERN GURUS OF CONSCIOUSNESS--and I mean this with respect--including ANDREW COHEN, DEEPAK CHOPRA, ECKHART TOLLE and others--like many others before them--all agree that each and every one of us is personally responsible for who we are, what perceive--that is, take in through the senses--with our minds. We are also responsible for what we choose to perceive and become attentively aware of. Of course we are also responsible for what we do with our perceptions.

They also agree that the ego is a closed loop of mindless interpretation based on illusions of belief and opinion. Therefore leading to the reality that it is not personal opinion and belief that leads to liberation.

Pranayama without the awareness of the absolute is such a misguided attempt to become enlightened. Actually trying to master any of the limbs of yoga without the awareness of the absolute is a waste of time.
If one becomes aware of the absolute the mind develops with all the limbs intact just as a baby does in the womb.
Trying to build the baby one limb at a time becomes futile and ends in the wasting of a lifetime trying to perfect one limb but eventually leaving what has been accomplished in that single lifetime behind to begin all over again in another.
The Science of Yoga is based on the Absolute and the awareness of the absolute. It is from there that all limbs of yoga are perfected, naturally. This is something that was discussed on one of Andrew Cohens dialogues and straight out of Patanjali's Yoga Sutra's written some 5000 years ago.
It is only the beliefs and opinions of Yoga that keep one from knowing what Yoga is, and the results are often labor intensive toward a condition or an experience that is believed to be tantamount to enlightenment that is the result of the same illusions of belief and opinion that creates dogma around the Teachings of Jesus and the reality of God.

Also there are lots of people who read about enlightenment. They read their whole life all about it, think about it, have opinions about it, beliefs about it, think they are on a path and never reach enlightenment.
From not being enlightened one does not know what it means to be enlightened. Anymore than a child knows what it is like to be an adult while being a child.

The post was a nice story about having read a popular science magazine in the 40's with a short blurb regarding your brother making you Xmas toys tho wink .....
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/11/08 05:45 AM

ABOUT ONE WHO CHOSE TO OPPOSE EVIL
==================================
Edmund Burke (1729-1797), an Anglo-Irish statesman, author, orator, political theorist, and philosopher. He served for many years in the British House of Commons as a member of the Whig party. Interestingly, though a Whig (Liberal) he is recognized as the father of modern conservatism. He supported the cause of the colonies and was opposed to making war on them.

Recently, I found that he became famous for something he did not write.

In an essay, Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents, what he wrote was :
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied (sic) sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

Over the years it got changed to this:
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Perhaps, today, we need to change 'men' to 'people'.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/11/08 08:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied (sic) sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

Over the years it got changed to this:
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Perhaps, today, we need to change 'men' to 'people'.



Perhaps man should discover the reality of Good and evil and by engaging in the triumph over the nature of evil (EGO) within ones self, become an example to the defeat of ego (EVIL). Otherwise to become obsessed with the removal of evil only strengthens its force.

Romans 12:21 is preceded by information (Romans 12:1 thru 12:20) regarding the nature of Christ consciousness and Union with God or the Experience of God in awareness within ones Self/self and everything one experiences. And it also covers the effects of Karma or cause and effect. (vengeance is mine sayeth the lord) Evil or wicked action being action of Ego creating repetitive lifetimes of reoccurring experiences based on the limited realization of reality until one discovers the Truth to end the cycle of ignorance.
It (enlightenment) is the very prerequisite to overcoming evil (EGO), and the only way to (As stated in 12:21) to be not of evil but to overcome evil with good.

That would be what Tolle means by being aware of the underlying current of reality, and evil.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/11/08 04:31 PM

Quote:
Perhaps man should discover the reality of Good and evil and by engaging in the triumph over the nature of evil (EGO) within ones self, become an example to the defeat of ego (EVIL). Otherwise to become obsessed with the removal of evil only strengthens its force.
Ok, Anon, why don't you do just that. More and more of us are.
You can begin by not hiding behind your big TT-like EGO you call Anon. Stop SHOULDING on people, and lead by example.

BTW, not once did I suggest in my last post that people be "obsessed with the removal of evil" by the evil means of force.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/11/08 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Ok, Anon, why don't you do just that. More and more of us are.


In what way, and how should that look?
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/11/08 11:11 PM

You are the one who pretends you have a hot line to the idol you call 'God'; you tell us!
Posted by: Ellis

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/11/08 11:43 PM

I was going to use the ignore button again but Anon (TT?) has outsmarted me--- because then I'll have to ignore genuine Anons. Well done!! But AAAAAAHHH!!
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/12/08 12:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
You are the one who pretends you have a hot line to the idol you call 'God'; you tell us!
No, you are the one who stated:
Quote:
Ok, Anon, why don't you do just that. More and more of us are.
You can begin by not hiding behind your big TT-like EGO you call Anon. Stop SHOULDING on people, and lead by example.

You mentioned lead by example: More and more of us are..

What example, who is us, and what is the example to look like other than I should not post as anonymous?

As long as you have decided I am shoulding anyone I'm open to what you are hinting toward in what I should.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/12/08 12:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
You are the one who pretends you have a hot line to the idol you call 'God'; you tell us!
No, you are the one who stated:
Quote:
Ok, Anon, why don't you do just that. More and more of us are.
You can begin by not hiding behind your big TT-like EGO you call Anon. Stop SHOULDING on people, and lead by example.

You mentioned lead by example: More and more of us are..

What example, who is us, and what is the example to look like other than I should not post as anonymous?

As long as you have decided I am shoulding anyone I'm open to what you are hinting toward in what I should.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/12/08 07:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
I was going to use the ignore button again but Anon (TT?) has outsmarted me--- because then I'll have to ignore genuine Anons. Well done!! But AAAAAAHHH!!
Ellis, it is obvious that certain genii get bored with their own company and can't stand being alone. Perhaps we have to put up with the fact that we have karmic debt to pay, and suffer them, gladly. Although I am seriously considering retiring from SAGG.

BTW, what does AAAAAAHHH!! mean in Australian?
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/12/08 08:31 AM



Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I am seriously considering retiring from SAGG.

Before you do, maybe you would for once intelligently answer my questions rather than avoiding them with mindless platitudes to cover the trail of inadequate comprehension, belief and opinion.. wink
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/12/08 08:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Ellis, it is obvious that certain genii get bored with their own company and can't stand being alone.

Not at all. A genius is never bored.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Perhaps we have to put up with the fact that we have karmic debt to pay, and suffer them, gladly.

That would be an oxymoron, to suffer gladly. It would be interesting if you could see it differently than suffering and actually experience God in something rather than choose to make idle statements to the idea thru opinion and belief.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Although I am seriously considering retiring from SAGG.

But you won't.
Posted by: Revlgking

Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, - 12/26/08 11:44 PM

DO NOT RESIST THE EVIL THINGS DONE TO YOU BY OTHERS BY TAKING VIOLENT REVENGE OR RETALIATION--
Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:38-39, in principle.
====================================================
The world of Jesus' day, including that of the Jews, was under the law of retaliation--an eye for and eye, etc.--against evildoers, by those who believed they were right.

Judaism, the religion in which Jesus was raised, was based on the belief in an all-powerful and all-knowing god, Jehovah, who promised to lead his chosen people in glorious victories over all the evildoers, including any who refused to accept him as the one true and only God and creator of all creation.

THE NOW MORALITY
================
Even to this day there is the same kind of commonly-accepted morality. It goes like this:

Sure we believe that Jesus is the prince of peace, but only after we win the war, with God's blessing, of course. When someone does us wrong, it is not only okay for us to get angry, but to get even. Generally speaking, most of us still believe that revenge is sweet! Why do you think we fought battles for the "promised land", the Crusades, for the New World, the two world wars, and are still fighting?

To this very day we still fight family feuds, civil wars, and wars between nations. All are carried out on the basis of this kind of morality.

People who refuse to take part in such conflicts are often branded as cowards, wimps and traitors.

Countless stories, plays, operas and films are based on the above kind of morality, and millions flock to watch shows about them week after week.

By the way, how many would line up to see a film in which a John Wayne, a James Bond, or a Clint Eastwood, and-the-like type, rides to meet the bad guys mounted on a donkey and armed only with an olive branch? What if they wore saffron robes, and burned themselves to death in front of a saloon where the bad guys are having a drink?

We want heroes/heroines who--while they, of course, are willing to risk their lives for us--will, eventually, save and deliver us, including themselves, from the evildoers.

We expect even more from our god-like super heroes: Superman, Batman, Spiderman, including their female versions. Yes, I remember Superwoman.

A NEW KIND OF SUPER HERO
========================
BTW, may I suggest a new kind of super hero: Pneuma man, or huma man. He is one who has a pneuma wife. Together, they choose to raise pneuma children and form a pneuma family.

As a family, they have decided to become pneuma conscious--that is, aware of their oneness with the Source, GOD.

As a pneuma family, they agree to make themselves available to all who pray: "Deliver us from evil--a life filled with suffering and pain."

After they listen to the person, or family in need, describe the circumstances of the predicament, what they offer, in the way of help, is this: "We are here to help you awaken to who you are and to the purpose of your life. Are you willing to do this and to take part in the whole process of find the right solution for you?

If there is no expression of willingness to be involved, no help can be given. However, if willingness to participate in the process is offered, the story takes off from there.

================================================

Needless to say, I do not believe in our having to depend on heroes of any kind, including God; or of being heavily involved in hero worship.

When push comes to shove, what is it that we need to do in the overcoming of evil as a personal challenge?

FORGET THE ELEMENT OF STRUGGLE, JUST SURRENDER TO WHAT IS
=========================================================
Most of us think that the only way for anyone to overcome evil involves a big struggle--ones being willing to take part in a long, hard struggle of heroic proportions. To the contrary, it really involves our being willing to give up the struggle. We need to stop agreeing to be participants.

In conversation with myself (EGO) I say something like this: "Stop resisting.
Relax and become an observer;
be aware of your thoughts and emotions;
be present in the now,
even this very moment.
Simply be alert, aware and see.
This will help you awake and arise to a new kind of consciousness--one in which you are no longer subject to any kind of physical, thought and emotional forms.

I remind you:
"You are totally connected with the Source,
the whole, including others from the same source."
==============================================================

In other words, take note of and "observe the self observing the ego and its creation, the body."

In the final analysis,
"We are one with GOD..."

Unitheism? Newtheism? Or even, nowtheism.
In GOD, there is no separation--only new oneness, now.