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#24472 01/12/08 03:51 AM
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Or should I say- Can intelligent life chang a basic law of nature, that of Entropy?

Isnt life itself ordered.?
We are reproducing ourselves by the millions, our bodys are taking up chemicals plus nutrition, and producing more and more ordered DNA and proteins, as a result. An ordering of Chemicals, if you like.

We are mining the Earth for metals, collecting them and fusing them into more lumps of ordered purity.

We are producing machines that produce yet more ordered objects
by the millions. Ordered objects of every conceivable kind, size and shape.

I cant help thinking that since we are gradually putting our known universe in order, as best we can. We are really in conflict with the physical Law of Entropy as we know it?

Say at some distant time in the future we had moved out into the Great Universe, and as a consequence had re-ordered and restructured all the planets that we found inhabitable, dosnt that buck Entropy?
I know the Universe is supposed to be 'running down' i.e Entropy and disorder is increasing as time goes on.
Ok, so Entropy, disorder and the running down of the Universe would still continue in those parts of the Universe we dont visit.

But I think it should be possible for us to move to different parts of our Universe, therebye creating order for ourselves to live in.
Wouldnt we be changing Entropy, a basic law of Nature.?
True or not, or where/why should I be wrong?




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I wonder about stars; and how to view entropy in the life of a star.
~~

If you consider the whole cycle (life cycle), then it makes sense.
Whatever entropy is "lost" in generating a complex life form is regained again when decomposition is completed.

Let me tell you, I'm just over 50ish and can already feel entropy setting in. smile

...but along the way, while alive, I eat and radiate:
(light => plants => feed => meat => eat => heat)

...and think of all the heat (...ultimately from light) that we generate as a society!
(from all those "ordered" machines; with their own lifetimes too)

(tangent): Could entropy be related to universal "expansion?"
Maybe that's why expansion has speeded up. smile

The way I see it, Life is the ultimate entropy generator; hence
Life is imperative in the universe.

Hence....

Life is just Nature's Way of changing Light into Heat.



Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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Interesting but life can cause breakdown and disorder, if it wants to.
But everykind of life all together are producing more order in the Universe than disorder. So I agree with you Mike when you say you could move to another part of the universe.
Life would order it so it could survive. Where life survives the universe does as well. We could never be aware of Chaos and disorder.

Thank You
Blobby2

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Entropy is not a force that can be stored or neutralized; it is more like an accounting concept.
Simply creating a machine, or a Zen Garden, does not increase order.

Remember to account for the energy used in creating the "order."
In the end, life and machines return to their ground state (no net gain or loss); but while "ordered" and working, they create a lot of heat from light (entropy).

Even some universal pyramid scheme, with increasing life, increasingly working to order it's environment, could not overcome entropy because....
All the "order" that life creates is small compared with the entropy that this "ordered" stuff generates.

Can you give me an example of order? Would a TV, car, building, or water pump qualify?


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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Life does not violate the 2nd law, 2LOT. If life were an exception to 2LOT, then 2LOT would not be a law. Order in thermodynamics is concerned with THERMODYNAMIC order - not some general idea of order that a lay person might have.

The apparent violation of 2LOT comes about from a misunderstanding of what 2LOT says and how it works.

Some good references:
http://www.panspermia.com/seconlaw.htm
http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/

My videos on 2LOT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o08r6PzxLHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7ma_7XM4FU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93pbJXJOmCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcQedFSUIMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lABiuUt-OT4


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Originally Posted By: Blobby2
Interesting but life can cause breakdown and disorder, if it wants to.
[quote=Mike Kremer]
It certainly can, judging by the state of the World today!
[quote=Blobby2]
But everykind of life all together are producing more order in the Universe than disorder. So I agree with you Mike when you say you could move to another part of the universe.
Life would order it so it could survive. Where life survives the universe does as well. We could never be aware of Chaos and disorder.

Thank You
Blobby2


Welcome to this Forum Blobby2.
No one seems to say where they come from
Are you Cambridge USA. or Cambridge UK?
No matter.
I do agree with you when you said "But everykind of life all together are producing more order in the Universe than disorder"

I think we ought to add..... (We)are producing more Order in our livable Universe than disorder?

Also:- We are aware of chaos and disorder.....but we just cannot live in those parts of the (disordered) Universe. Is that what you mean?


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Yes you are right. Since you cannot expect to get order from nothing or no life.
Life does seem to produce more order in our livable universe, by using producing and manufacturing from a worlds raw materials.
But when life becomes too evolved it ends up destroying all it produced.

Thank You
Blobby2

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Yes you are right. Since you cannot expect to get order from nothing or no life.
Life does seem to produce more order in our livable universe, by using producing and manufacturing from a worlds raw materials.

But when life becomes too evolved it ends up destroying all it produced.

Thank You
Blobby2
Quote:

thats what we have to avoid at all costs...Self destruction.

I hope and pray that Mankind has developed some brains along our Evolutionary road.



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Originally Posted By: Blobby2
But when life becomes too evolved it ends up destroying all it produced.
Too evolved? hmmmm. That's another discussion, I think.

But....
Entropy; the final frontier....


Life can violate entropy, but only temporarily.
Life creates order out of the status quo (not out of disorder).
Life creates disorder on a wide scale, by creating order on a local scale.

In "creating order" on a local level, life must scavenge from the wider environment; thus generating more entropy than the created 'order' accounts for.

Don't forget about the entropy generated gathering the raw materials just to make the tools used to gather other resources used make the machines that then mold and manufacture other gathered resources into a small, highly ordered product.

The entropy generated by burning the fuel and food alone overwhelms the 'order' created by our civilization.
That 'order' is on a local level only; the surrounding environment is rent asunder, and warmer, thus generating that local, temporary order which keeps civilization humming along (generating even more entropy than the sum of the individual life forms).

Creation and maintenance of order comes at a high entropic price.
The created order is singular, temporary, and reversible.
That generated entropy is ongoing, not temporary, or reversible.

When all this is added up, compared to the 'order' created, it can be seen that life is a prodigious generator of entropy.

p.s. Especially in the long term.
So yes, let's see how long we can keep evolving and furthering the goals of the universe.


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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