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 #55905 - 05/23/16 12:33 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE Bill S. Megastar Registered: 08/20/10 Posts: 3570 Loc: Essex, UK Quote:In other words, is size somehow relative to an object’s speed? Would three different clocks – one on the sidelines, one on the head of the tortoise and one (a really tiny one) on the head of the hare record different times? If you apply the maths of time dilation to this question, the answer must be "yes", if you compare all three clocks afterwards they will all show different times. _________________________ There never was nothing. Top
 #55906 - 05/23/16 06:21 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE 969264409111 Junior Member Registered: 05/11/16 Posts: 21 Loc: California I had assumed the answer would be "no", but this has interesting ramifications. If size is a factor, wouldn't that mean that time passes at different rates for, say, a bacteria versus a blue whale? Top
 #55908 - 05/23/16 10:37 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE Bill Megastar Registered: 12/31/10 Posts: 1858 Loc: Oklahoma, USA In General Relativity where you are standing to look at something changes what you will see. And time varies depending on your FOR (frame of reference). If the gravitational field varies between your FOR and what you are observing then there will be a time variation. The gravitational field around a bacteria will be different than around a blue whale. That means that time will be different. Of course in this case the difference will be so small that the time difference will be indetectable. If you look at larger objects the time difference becomes very large. If you watch somebody falling into a black hole then you will see their time become extremely slow. In fact you will never see them actually reach the black hole event horizon. Of course to the person falling there will be no difference in time. However, if they could observe your time it would become extremely fast.Bill Gill _________________________ C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.C is the universal speed limit. Top
 #55923 - 05/26/16 12:31 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE Bill S. Megastar Registered: 08/20/10 Posts: 3570 Loc: Essex, UK Quote:If size is a factor, wouldn't that mean that time passes at different rates for, say, a bacteria versus a blue whale? I came across an interesting idea recently, that a creature's perception of time is related to its life expectation such that the shorter its life span, the slower it perceives the passage of time. This explains why (eg) a fly can react so quickly. What seems like a fraction of a second to us would be quite a long time in the fly's perception. _________________________ There never was nothing. Top
 #55925 - 05/26/16 01:12 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE Bill Megastar Registered: 12/31/10 Posts: 1858 Loc: Oklahoma, USA Originally Posted By: Bill S.I came across an interesting idea recently, that a creature's perception of time is related to its life expectation such that the shorter its life span, the slower it perceives the passage of time. This explains why (eg) a fly can react so quickly. What seems like a fraction of a second to us would be quite a long time in the fly's perception. I know nothing about that sort of thing, but I will go ahead and show my brilliance by making some guesses.It seems to me that the size of the fly might have something to do with its reaction time. The mass of the flies wings is so small that they can accelerate very quickly under relatively small forces. Also the length of the nerves is very short, so transmission time from the brain to the muscles would be very short. As to the flies perception of time, I have no idea.Bill Gill _________________________ C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.C is the universal speed limit. Top
 #55926 - 05/26/16 08:58 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: Bill] Bill S. Megastar Registered: 08/20/10 Posts: 3570 Loc: Essex, UK Quote:As to the flies perception of time, I have no idea.I seriously doubt that anyone has, but when has lack of knowledge ever been a bar to speculation|? _________________________ There never was nothing. Top
 #55927 - 05/26/16 10:31 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE 969264409111 Junior Member Registered: 05/11/16 Posts: 21 Loc: California Suppose the example were taken to an extreme? What if a person is sitting far outside what is about to become our universe, just before the Big Bang (I realize the general consensus is that nothing exists outside of our universe). This person is so large and so far away that the initial explosion/expansion appears something like a nuclear fireball at a very great distance. Then, of course, it continues to expand for nearly 14 Billion years. And during that time, we humans and other living organisms appear. We perceive the passage of time according to our world and points of reference that surround us, and that's how we calculate the expansion time of 14 Billion years. Does time pass at a different rate for the tremendous outside observer? Does it take 14 billions years (of our time) for him or her to watch this occur? Top
 #55928 - 05/26/16 10:50 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE Bill Megastar Registered: 12/31/10 Posts: 1858 Loc: Oklahoma, USA Well, it takes 14 billion years of our time for the external observer to witness the evolution of our universe up to this point, according to our clock. The problem then is determining at what speed the external observer's clock runs. We have no idea what the physical laws governing such an external observer would look like. There is a good chance that they would be tremendously different from those that hold here in our universe. In fact to observe our universe it would almost certainly have to exist in more than 3+1* dimensions, so that it could understand what it was observing. Since we are talking about an imaginary observer we can set its clock speed to anything we want. That of course assumes that it uses clocks. An external observer with more 3+1 dimensions might not actually have clocks as such.*In case you aren't familiar with the designation 3+1 dimensions, that means 3 spacial dimensions and 1 time dimension, which is how we perceive our universe.Bill Gill _________________________ C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.C is the universal speed limit. Top
 #55932 - 05/28/16 01:19 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:In other words, is size somehow relative to an object’s speed? Would three different clocks – one on the sidelines, one on the head of the tortoise and one (a really tiny one) on the head of the hare record different times?clocks dont record time they are used to measure time.if each of the clocks were designed to measure time in sync withthe other two clocks then there is no reason that the clocks wouldmeasure any differences of time measurements between the three clocks.my answer although dull unlike the previous answers is NO. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #55933 - 05/29/16 06:13 AM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE 969264409111 Junior Member Registered: 05/11/16 Posts: 21 Loc: California What if the measurement was speed instead of time? The speed of the Tortoise and the Hare? The tortoise zipping down track, and Hare leisurely lifting it's huge foot and moving it slightly forward. Top
 #55934 - 05/29/16 02:24 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 if the three clocks were replaced by speedometers that wereeach designed to correctly measure the distance traveled ina given amount of time then there would be no reason for the three speedometers to measure any thing except the distance thatthe speedometers had moved.1) the speedometer (was the clock) on the sideline registers zero because it does not move.2) the speedometer (was the clock) on the top of the hares head would also register zero as he does not need to move his head in order to finish the race , he simply moves his foot forward slightly.so in order to correctly measure the distance that the hares foottravels the speedometer would need to be mounted on the tip ofhis foot ( the foot that he moves forward slightly ).the hare would have traveled the entire distance of the race track.think of a photo finish where the winner is determined by aphoto of any part of a contenders body that crosses the finish line first.3) the speedometer (was the clock) on the top of the tortoise's head would register a tiny amount of distance traveled before thehare won the race.time would not change.and distance would not change.they do not change because both are nothing more than measurements that cannot be altered. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #55935 - 05/29/16 03:34 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:So here’s the big question: Are these differences only perceptions? Or, is the speed of an object and the time elapsed in its movement somehow relative to its size? No.a mayfly (24 hour lifespan ) and a ocean quahog (400 year lifespan)both share our time measurements.although the lifespan of the ocean quahog is 146,000 times longerthan the lifespan of the mayfly there is no difference in the measurement of time.there are living trees that are part of a clonal colonywhose roots are 80,000 - 1,000,000 years old in Utah.this root system is the largest living organism and theoldest living organism.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_treesthe Pando (quaking aspen)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)also the Bible recorded a list of people who lived a really long time compared to our current lifespan.but all of the above lifespans share or shared our time scale.for us humans our time measurements and our distance measurements are valid in the smallest scale of the micro or the largest scale of the cosmos.those tree roots may perceive the passing of a thousand yearsas we perceive the passing of a single year.but perception of time between species of life cannot alterour time measurements nor can we alter their time measurements. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #55936 - 05/29/16 07:19 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: paul] Bill Megastar Registered: 12/31/10 Posts: 1858 Loc: Oklahoma, USA Originally Posted By: Paulthose tree roots may perceive the passing of a thousand yearsas we perceive the passing of a single year.I'm not sure, but that may be what 969264409111 was referring to. In fact any entity that can perceive the passage of time will use units that make sense to it. For us the 'natural' units of time are the day and the year, which are artificially subdivided into hours minutes and seconds. For other species the time division may be much different.Originally Posted By: Paulbut perception of time between species of life cannot alterour time measurements nor can we alter their time measurements.We might not be able to alter their perception of time, but it will be possible to convert between our time measurements and their time measurements (ignoring the effects of relativity).Bill Gill _________________________ C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.C is the universal speed limit. Top
 #55937 - 05/29/16 08:10 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: Bill] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:but it will be possible to convert between our time measurements and their time measurements (ignoring the effects of relativity).I suppose that plants and animals have used the sun rise and sun set and possibly the moon phases and air and ground temperatures as their internal clock.all of the above can be artificially supplied in an underground habitat.so I suppose that we can artificially manipulate their internal clock.but we would need some form of communication to know what their timemeasurements were if we were dealing with an animal or plant life that alreadylives underground or in the deep ocean in order to convert their time measurements to our time measurements.but the biologist already have that figured out I would think.Quote:(ignoring the effects of relativity)I wouldnt have it any other way...LOL _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #55938 - 05/30/16 12:57 AM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: paul] 969264409111 Junior Member Registered: 05/11/16 Posts: 21 Loc: California What I failed to note in my questions and comments was could a very dramatic difference in size alter the perception of time and, if that perception is in fact different is the experience "reality". Dramatic difference.Many of the effects of relativity do not become apparent until differences well beyond our normal perceptions are reached. For instance the changes in time as one approaches the speed of light.In my little tortoise and hare story, the difference in size is significant and so it becomes apparent. Is time perceived by the gnat as it is by the hare? I don't think so. And if that is the case, is each perception reality? It seems to me it has to be. Maybe some of the distinction has to do with the difference between "speed" or "motion" and the passage of "time". Top
 #55939 - 05/30/16 02:45 AM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE Bill Megastar Registered: 12/31/10 Posts: 1858 Loc: Oklahoma, USA I agree that their perception of time will be different. The first thing to realize is that time, in this respect is relative to how fast an individual lives. In fact this happens to humans over their life time. When we are young it seems as though a year is a long time. When you get older the length of a year appears much shorter. And of course our perception of time depends on many other things. If you are doing something that you are very interested in time may pass very quickly for you. You will wind up saying 'Is the day already over?' But other times it will seem as though the day will never end. So time perception is very erratic.In general small things live a much shorter life than larger things. An individuals perception of time rate depends, in part, on how fast things change in its life. So a small creature that has a short life would have a perceived time rate that is much faster than a large creature with a long life.Bill Gill _________________________ C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.C is the universal speed limit. Top
 #55941 - 05/30/16 12:30 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:Many of the effects of relativity do not become apparent until differences well beyond our normal perceptions are reached. For instance the changes in time as one approaches the speed of light.there is no reason for us to perceive any changes in time dueto increasing speed.we have never experienced any changes in time due to increasing speed or anything else and the only way that we can perceive a change in time due to increasing speed would be through the use of math that has been specifically designed to show changes in time due to increasing speed.Quote:What I failed to note in my questions and comments was could a very dramatic difference in size alter the perception of time and, if that perception is in fact different is the experience "reality". Dramatic difference.reality and the perception of reality are not the same.our brains can cause us to perceive reality way beyond thescope of reality.and size does have an impact on the reality that our brainscause us to perceive.for instance your driving down a highway that is next toa airport , a airbus is crossing the highway in front of you while it is on its path for a landing.you look at it and it almost seems as if it should just dropout of the sky because it looks like its just barely movingbut in reality there is no way that such a massive aircraftcan just stop and drop , because its momentum is causing itto move forward at that point.it would have to be met with a force that is exactly oppositeits forward momentum in order for it to stop and drop.Quote:In my little tortoise and hare story, the difference in size is significant and so it becomes apparent. Is time perceived by the gnat as it is by the hare? I don't think so. And if that is the case, is each perception reality? It seems to me it has to be. Maybe some of the distinction has to do with the difference between "speed" or "motion" and the passage of "time".the cosmos is not concerned about what we call time.we invented the word time and the tools to measure time ourselves and our perception of time depends mostly on the tools that we invented.Quote:Is time perceived by the gnat as it is by the hare? I don't think so. I have no way of knowing.Quote:And if that is the case, is each perception reality?reality and the perception of reality are not the same.judging from our or my perception of realityI would speculate that to the gnat its perception of reality is real.andto the hare its perception of reality is real.but the only way that either could know if theirperception of reality is different from the otherthere would need to be some form of communicationbetween the two.to try and fit this into your OP.if the gnat had developed a wrist watch that he wore on one ofhis appendages andif the hare had developed a wrist watch that he wore on one ofhis appendages andif a human wearing his wristwatch and a hare wearing his wristwatch and a gnat wearing his wristwatch were all lined up at the starting line before the race.each species had developed their own time measurementsand their own tools to measure time and speed.an human observer would look at the human contenders wristwatch and notice no differences in the movement of the second hand or the minute hand or the hour hand or the day , month or year displayed on the face of the wristwatch between his watch and the human contender in the race.however when he looked at the hares wristwatch he may see a bluras the second hand and the minute hand is spinning away really fast.when he looked at the gnats wristwatch he may see no hands at all because they are all spinning away too fast to even notice that they are in fact there and the month dial is clicking awayas fast as the second hand on his own wristwatch.so I could then speculate that the perception of time is in the mindand on the wrist of the perceiver... _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #55943 - 05/30/16 01:25 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: paul] Bill S. Megastar Registered: 08/20/10 Posts: 3570 Loc: Essex, UK Quote:there is no reason for us to perceive any changes in time due to increasing speed.Do you use a sat nav? _________________________ There never was nothing. Top
 #55944 - 05/30/16 01:33 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:Do you use a sat nav?why do you ask?is there a advertised or supposed reason for us to perceive any changes in time due to increasing speed found in the useof or process involved in a sat nav?I just read an article that said that the proposed or advertisedtime dilation theorized by einstein was supposedly due to the distance of a satellite from a heavy object and there was no mention about the speed of the satellite causing the supposedtime dilation.heres the article.Quote:Two satellites that were accidentally launched into the wrong orbit will be repurposed to make the most stringent test to date of a prediction made by Albert Einstein’s general theory of relativity — that clocks run more slowly the closer they are to heavy objects.http://www.nature.com/news/wayward-satellites-repurposed-to-test-general-relativity-1.18780so I'm concerned why you would post such a reply.perhaps you have perceived that the time dilation was due tospeed because you read it somewhere or heard it somewhereor used some of the designer math to calculate it for some reasonI no longer read einstein or concern myself with his theories andespecially his designer math ever since I took a really closelook at his math that is most definitely faked to prop up his theories. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #55947 - 05/30/16 05:50 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: paul] Bill Megastar Registered: 12/31/10 Posts: 1858 Loc: Oklahoma, USA Originally Posted By: paulQuote:Do you use a sat nav?why do you ask?Because the GPS system takes into account both Special and General Relativity. That means both speed and mass. If it didn't then it would be unusable.We all realize that you refuse to accept the many experiments which have conclusively demonstrated that Einstein's theories are correct, to the level at which they have been tested. The experiment you referenced is another effort to make sure that they work at even finer levels than those they have already been tested to, and the tests to present have gotten very close. Adding a few more decimal points is always useful, just to make sure that our best tested theories still work at that much smaller scale.Bill Gill _________________________ C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.C is the universal speed limit. Top
 #55948 - 05/30/16 06:07 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: Bill] Bill S. Megastar Registered: 08/20/10 Posts: 3570 Loc: Essex, UK The point I was moving towards was that it must seem odd, perhaps even miraculous, that your “nav” stays in sync with the “sat” in spite of the fact that some nerd is constantly bug’ring with it in the naïve belief that it needs adjusting to compensate for time dilation due to altitude in a gravitational field and to speed. _________________________ There never was nothing. Top
 #55949 - 05/30/16 11:09 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: Bill] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:Because the GPS system takes into account both Special and General Relativity. That means both speed and mass. If it didn't then it would be unusable.I just had a look at the satellite navigation formulas and noneof the formulas have any elements that could represent massand the only element that could represent speed that I couldfind is "c" for the speed of light in a vacuum.none of the elements in the formulas could possibly representsatellite mass or satellite speed or any earth based GPSlocator systems speed ... also the math used DOES NOT contain any of the designer maththat is used to prop up the einstein theories.and thats most likely why it works so well...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Navigation_equationsplease point out where satellite mass or satellite speed is located in ANY of the formulas.the only elements I found are transmitter time , receiver timeposition x , y , and zalso why would a GPS system need to incorporate the designereinstein math when the orbital velocity is only 3.9 km/s?are you suggesting that there would be any differences in timebetween the clocks on earth and the onboard clocks on a satellite traveling at such slow speeds in a earth orbit?I think the whole idea is rather silly myself because someone on the earths equator is basically orbiting the center of theearth at apx .44 km/s (not much of a difference compared 3.9 km/s) that would mean that someone at either pole would undergo a drastic time difference when compared to someone at the equatorand we dont seem to have experienced any serious time differences so far.so why should a satellite?same thing goes for mass. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #55951 - 05/31/16 01:45 AM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE Bill S. Megastar Registered: 08/20/10 Posts: 3570 Loc: Essex, UK http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html _________________________ There never was nothing. Top
 #55953 - 05/31/16 02:43 AM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE [Re: paul] Bill Megastar Registered: 12/31/10 Posts: 1858 Loc: Oklahoma, USA Originally Posted By: PaulI think the whole idea is rather silly myself because someoneon the earths equator is basically orbiting the center of theearth at apx .44 km/s(not much of a difference compared 3.9 km/s) No, there isn't much difference between .44 km/s and 3.9 km/s, only a factor of a little less than 9. Of course that keeps changing, since the GPS satellites aren't in an equatorial orbit. Their orbits are at a large angle to the equator.And the gravitational attractions at the Earth's surface and at the orbit of the GPS satellite (dependent on the Earth's mass) is enough different that it will affect the time of the clock on the satellite.And of course there is no use talking to you about this since you willfully refuse to accept all the evidence available as to the correctness of Einstein's theories.Bill Gill _________________________ C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.C is the universal speed limit. Top
 #55955 - 05/31/16 05:04 AM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE 969264409111 Junior Member Registered: 05/11/16 Posts: 21 Loc: California We are told that the time dimension is are a part of our conscious perception. Is the difference between the tortoise use and the hare in this story a visual example of that difference. Top
 #55957 - 05/31/16 12:54 PM Re: THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE – A TIMELY RACE paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 I cant think of why time is involved in GPS location.the article you posted http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.htmlstates that the relativistic additions were due to time differencesbetween the atomic clocks on earth GPS stations and atomic clockson GPS satellites in orbit.so they slowed the atomic clocks on the satellites !!!I have an idea about that but I will check on it lateranyway moving on ... so what?what has time got to do with the calculation of three signalssent from an array of 3 line of sight orbiting satellites anyway.the only useable information that a earth based GPS LOCATIONdevice needs is the location of at least 3 of the orbiting satellites positions.nothing else is needed.time certainly has nothing to do with LOCATION.the handheld or onboard GPS system takes the 3 signals andplots its current LOCATION and ALTITUDE on the earth using the 3 signals which are sent from the 3 satellites.there is no need for time insertion into the GPS systemthe only thing needed is distance.the handheld or onboard GPS system uses the data sent from the 3 satellitesand combines the known data which should be the1) the satellites orbital height above the point directlybelow it on the surface of the earth3) the satellites orbital direction2) the satellites orbital speed4) the earths rotational direction5) the earths rotational speedand then plots the current location of the GPS deviceon the earth or in the earths atmosphere from the knowndata and the data received from the satellites.not one single instance of time could possibly be neededto be sent from the satellite ...the only point in the entire calculation where any instanceof time would be required would be the amount of timethat passes between the satellite location data transmissionsand these could be at any desired interval not some pumped up magic show prop synced transmission from an intentionallyslowed down atomic clock as long as the GPS device isprogrammed to operate at that chosen transmission interval.I say its simply a well hidden farce that has caused it to be said that the GPS systems would not work without the einstein trickery and magic show.this whole thing started as a government project and my thoughtsare that the whole system was designed to extract more and more money from the government that was eager to dump more and more money into it for military purposes.but I still want to look into the real reason that they supposedly slowed the satellites atomic clocks down. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
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