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#27793 - 09/19/08 12:31 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, this thread is a dialogue about the kind of philosophy of religion we have. Perhaps we need to dialogue about what it means to be religious.

Obviously, TT is revealing to us what he/she has as a philosophy of religion, which I find most interesting. I am most willing to do likewise.

Now, Ellis, tell us: What is your philosophy of religion?
To know this could be very helpful to all involved in this dialogue.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#27794 - 09/19/08 02:35 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
That made interesting reading TT. I wholeheartedly agree with you with the concept that through free choice son of 'man' becomes Son of God. However there is the posibility that such a choice, freely made, leads not to a belief in god ( however god is seen) but to the knowledge that 'god' does not exist. Cannot the realities of atheism have as much validity as the illusions created by belief?

To answer the first part of the question regarding the proof that God does not exist..
When one becomes Christed or the Son of God, God is experienced not as a separate entity but within everything, and one experiences themselves as God.
God is the active part of the absolute, it by itself does not exist without the still part of consciousness or the energy of potential that is neither beginning or end, called the alpha and the omega or the absolute. It cannot be contained or defined, but it does express itself and can experience expression in the form of our being. We think of ourselves as isolated to our experiences or even isolated by our experiences, when we as physical bodies are reflections of consciousness itself.

If anyone has any fantasies about God they are dissolved when one becomes aware of themselves as the infinite consciousness they are, rather than the piece of the material world they believe they are through the identification of the ego.

If one believes they are an athiest or a thiest it is the same. It is a fabrication of the mind created in the experience of separation of God or separation from the awareness of unity.
The soul experienced is like a mirror facing a mirror. When you stand in between the two they reflect infinite reflections with each reflection having the same potential of energy to move in a direction. Energy does not recognize itself as good or bad nor does it see itself as anything static and solid. IT flows in and out of time and space and experience. Consciousness or God is that free flowing energy and it lives as experience, thought and desire. We identify with the thoughts and believe we are those thoughts when we are more than the thoughts, we are the creator of the thoughts and the activity that surrounds thought in experience and idea is merely reflection of thought.
Within the mirrors there is no real one single object of truth. Truth is what underlies and supports all of the images and the directions they take. Free will is imbued within each reflection to take a course and God being without boundaries is not limited to which course of action or where action will end, or an image of one kind or expression of one value. There is as many possibilities for experiences to express itself as there are possibilities for thought, expression and reflection. That is who we are, and that is God.

When we experience God we experience the reflection of God because God itself cannot be limited to an experience. Because god is not limited it can be experienced, but it will not be contained within the experience, nor does the experience of God remain static, it is ever changing and evolving as our awareness expands with the infinite.
We are both unmanifest and manifest, one does not exist without the other.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


Obviously, TT is revealing to us what he/she has as a philosophy of religion, which I find most interesting. I am most willing to do likewise.

Actually I am putting into words what I experience.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27795 - 09/19/08 05:19 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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I understand that you are describing your own experience, the reality and truth of which which no one can deny. I am also arguing for the validity of personal experience, but my experience happened to take a path heading in the opposite direction. As you say there are many possibilities. In fact I think we may in fact be closer philosophically than at first seems possible!

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#27796 - 09/19/08 06:31 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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I'd be interested in how you would exemplify that idea..
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27797 - 09/19/08 12:15 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
... As you say there are many possibilities. In fact I think we may in fact be closer philosophically than at first seems possible!
This, IMO, demonstrates the value of dialogue--a spiritual attitude of win/win, often absent in most forums. Too often we allow the ego (the unconscious psyche) to determine how the drama if life plays out.

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#27799 - 09/19/08 05:30 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Originally Posted By: Ellis
... As you say there are many possibilities. In fact I think we may in fact be closer philosophically than at first seems possible!
This, IMO, demonstrates the value of dialogue--a spiritual attitude of win/win, often absent in most forums. Too often we allow the ego (the unconscious psyche) to determine how the drama if life plays out.

Trying to create a win win scenario is how the ego tries to isolate drama and control how life plays out.
Compassion is unconditional love and wisdom combined. It does not determine what is helpful and what is not helpful by getting emotionally attached to whether someone feels good about being ignorant of reality or whether they feel good about being enlightened.
Truth is not dependent on illusions of judgment based on whether someone feels they have won or gained something or lost something.
If someone loses their ignorance they win knowledge and that can lead to experience and wisdom. But if one decides to play moderator based on illusions of ignorance to keep everyone in the same playing field of ignorant awareness, that person does a disservice to himself and to others.

Some play too heavily in emotional attachments to how things look and try to control and manipulate based on definitions of social etiquette that is lost in the ignorance of ego.

Unconditional love sets no conditions. It supports the destruction of ignorance in favor of expanded awareness, and to the ego it never feels good, nor does the ego feel it wins anything, when its boundaries of ignorance and limitation are threatened.

That was also in the message given by Jesus in Matthew and in Luke:

Lk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.


If you want to create a spiritual win win scenario then it would not include the soothing of the feelings and mindset of what he called the dead or those attached to the emotionalism of the body and the world around those emotions and feelings that are the ego. It would in fact require one to act as he did. Also exemplified in Matthew:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


The destruction of ignorance and of the ego is the spiritual sword that is wielded by God. This can never be accomplished by anyone with an ego. An ego cannot kill another ego for the Ego knows nothing of spirituality and God, and that is the greatest religious and philosophical boundary man lives with. Praching God without knowing God.
Spirituality is not true spirituality when manipulated or dictated by anyone with an ego that stands between spirit and the manifest and judges what is real based on personal philosophy and belief.

It's all God, so its all good. If it's all God everyone wins even when they think they are losing. In fact one stands to gain something greater if they lose what wasn't serving them in the beliefs that hold one to limitation.
Without being One with God, the ego projects degrees of God in their visual surroundings, and judgment is not of God but of belief and limitation.

Do you think you are without ego Rev. and capable of clearly recognizing a spiritual win win situation in everything, or do you believe God comes in packages that suit your personal definitions of spiritual win win scenario's?

Is your philosophy built of natural and universal laws that apply to everyone and everything or is it of a personal nature tuned to your beliefs and your ego?

I know your a proponent for what you call the Golden Rule, but is the rule "God's" rule or "ego's rule", and how would you tell the difference?


If you want to know if these are Rhetorical questions I would like to apply the dictionary definition of the word Rhetoric to imply these specific ideas:

2. the art or science of all specialized literary uses of language in prose or verse, including the figures of speech.
3. the study of the effective use of language.
4. the ability to use language effectively.

Keeping the personal out of language more effectively allows it to come from a deeper awareness of thought then the reactive surface of the mind and its emotional shortcomings.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27800 - 09/20/08 06:49 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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I am pondering how to exemplify my statement regarding a personal journey to truth and lack of faith!

I think that the story I told here a while ago has to probably get a second hearing. Certainly I have absolutely never even as a child, felt the need to believe in god, or had any tortured path to lack of faith. I had a happy childhood which allowed me to explore god, religion and faith, not from within my family (faith there was conventional and tepid) but in a non-frightening academic setting as well. I understood most people enjoyed some form of religious experience, and I loved the ceremony and music of the church (Anglican) but missed out on the emotional side of it all.

I stopped attending church and didn't miss it. Then I had my first child and lots went wrong. Both of us were close to death, we both survived, and, as I have stated before, I realised that at no time did I feel the need to pray or bargain with god, or wonder what would happen to either, or both of us, if we died. Because this surprised me I had a bit of a think about it and I realised I had not prayed or wondered because I did not believe in the power of prayer, god or the afterlife. So I guessed I was an atheist... but I have an issue with this label as the Rev and others like him, insist that I believe in Atheism. I don't. I have no knowledge of and am disinterested in the existence of a divine being /thing /whatever. Atheism is not a belief, to an atheist the absense of god is a statement of fact.

That was my very half hearted, undramatic journey to atheism. I do not necessarily think that others, having exactly my experiences would end at at the same place, though they might, and I do not ever try to convert people who believe in god. I couldn't anyway. People who are convinced that they have access to god are usually those from whom martrys are made and their faith is stronger than my possible persuasions. The thing is that I believe such strength does not always mean truth.

I am very much against the concept of win/win with regard to religion. A person's religious experience is part of their journey, and there can be NO wrong answer and no first prize.




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#27802 - 09/20/08 07:47 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis


I am very much against the concept of win/win with regard to religion. A person's religious experience is part of their journey, and there can be NO wrong answer and no first prize.




Religion often has very little to do with spirituality. One exists regardless of beliefs, the other exists because of beliefs. The universe always goes on regardless of how one feels about it. Such a reality that there is an expression of creation coming from a source that survives all emotional attachments and beliefs regarding ones place in and amongst the ongoing presence of expanding creation isn't always acknowledged or understood, but we all are experiencing it in the cycles of life and death. In that, there is no right and wrong but there are relative outcomes to the choices we make when we ignore something that is part of us. Especially if it is the greater/lasting part of us.


As I said, how we philosophize or worship is limited when engaged from personal beliefs rather than when we are intuitively connected to the timeless entity that exists within everything.

The science of Yoga exemplifies the ability to consciously join with it and to be aware of it. That science became a religion when Jesus died and left his disciples to carry on with his teachings. The teachings of Jesus were based on the relationship everyone has with the absolute and how to experience it. Not only experience it in ones self but in another.
We all experience the intuitive connection to the way others feel when we become close and less guarded with them such as we do with loved ones. A partner can walk through the door after having a bad day and you can feel it before anything is said.
When one feels a room full of people all experiencing the absolute its like stacking batteries together. The energy is amplified and the experience solidifies faith into an unbreakable connection with reality.
Something like that doesn't change. Only the experience of expansion with it changes.

Regardless of the personal flavor of each expression of God that is the soul in man, the resonance is always the same. When approached with innocence and without preconceived stress related judgments based on what a relationship with it should look like or be, the extent of the infinite is easily recognized as the only real thing that can be applied to humanity and its reflections of choice that is lasting.
Everything else comes and goes like days passing in the week.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27806 - 09/20/08 11:09 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, you say
Quote:
I am very much against the concept of win/win with regard to religion....


Your response prompts me to ask: Are you sure to know what I mean when I say, "win/win"?

Win/win, IMO, means as you write: "A person's religious experience is part of their journey, and there can be NO wrong answer and no first prize."

The negative of win/win is: I win and you lose. This is NOT the position which I choose to take. Win/win is about respecting all sincerely held opinions. If this is not clear, feel free to say so. Ask questions, if I am not clear, okay?


Edited by Revlgking (09/20/08 11:11 PM)

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#27807 - 09/21/08 01:34 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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It's just the win thing. There's no competition. I am sure most of us want to feel that we have achieved some degree of happiness and contentment in our life and are able to face the new day with some anticipation of pleasure. Is this winning? I don't think so because there really is no such thing as everyone winning. In order for me to win there has to be a loser, so that I can think well I've done better than that person. I'm cleverer, I'm prettier, I'm richer, I'm more loved by god because I am not sinful etc etc. Winning invites comparison, with others, whereas we should be concentrating on our own actions and behaviours. (I thnk). Life is not some great examination where the winner gets eternal life. There is no right way to live, there is no prize at the end... we need to find a way to live that ensures we are proud of what we have done and acknowledge that perhaps we could have done more--- before we fade to black!

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#27808 - 09/21/08 01:42 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Win/win is about respecting all sincerely held opinions.

So far I haven't seen you with any ability to actually live up to that idea.
You respect sincerity only if you believe you are being respected.
Otherwise you ignore what you don't accept and respect, even use sarcasm. At least that is the way you have respected me.

By the way, you still haven't answered my questions.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27810 - 09/21/08 01:42 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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One hobby I have is writing rhymes. Yesterday--bright, warm and pleasant in Toronto--inspired by my reading of Eckhart Tolles, Power of the NOW, the following rhyme came to me while I was mowing the lawn. Believe it or not, I put these words to paper before I read any of today's posts. BTW, check out:

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=eckhart+tolle&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=com.mandriva:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#
Spiritually speaking, ET and I are at-one-ment.
====================================================
The NOW, the HOW and the Presence--GOD as Love?
===============================================
NOW Will with me that Presence be
Love in the midst of pain and strife.
This guides us HOW to feel the NOW
In all that we call life.
NOW is the only time we have,
All else is but confusion.
Stay in the NOW, morn, noon and night;
And there'll be no illusion.
====================
To clarify what I mean:

NOW. I use it as an acronym representing our Nature/Nurture being under the Oneness of Will.

HOW. An acronym representing our being Honest, Open and Whole beings in Whole Being (GOD--the Goodness, Orderliness and Desireable Design in all that IS.)


Edited by Revlgking (09/21/08 06:27 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#27811 - 09/21/08 05:48 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Do you know the difference between intellectualizing, and being the now?

And can you answer my other questions?

I'm OK if you can't, or if you don't understand the subject matter. But I think it would be an interesting scenario and opportunity for you to have you witness what is actually rising within you rather than what you think from the surface of the mind.
Its OK to be a follower of great ideas but all too often followers have no idea what it is that they are following as was evidenced by the masses who followed Jesus back in the day.

Eckhart Tolle has a great following but without the experience of what it is he speaks of, they can only create images within their minds and memory relative to the past impressions they have of reality.
This is not living in the now, it is thinking within a present moment that relies heavily on the past.
A condition of egoic referencing or judgment.

You do that a lot Rev., which is why I would like to see if you can actually bring the now forward into experience.
That would be a win win situation.

By the way, desirabilty in reference to God is a relative and sometimes religious idea that leans heavily on projection and often illusory perspectives.
It's all God and its all Good. Desirability in God would be whatever leads to bringing the awareness into the now, even if it is painful to the pride of ones idealism.
Wholeness is without pride and ego for they are limiting to the nature of the Soul. One cannot be whole with their ego as the lid on the quart jar of a personal God and any opinion regardless of how sincere it is, if it limits God in experience and expression of the now.

One way that experience is limited is when Oneness is idealized by the intellect under the influence of the ego, and at-one-ment is an agreement of personal idealism. Or when one sees or hears something and attaches everything desirous of the personal and it is anchored by belief rather than a connectedness to universal law.
Universal law unites all things regardless of personality and beliefs in idealism. It stands eternal whereas beliefs and personality are constantly changing and evolving based on conscious awareness of reality.
Evidence of such evolution is the attachment to symbolism. Ideas regarding the nature of reality are translated into idolistic markers that are heavily leaned upon until something better comes along, in which case the old idol is replaced with a new one and with new meanings.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27813 - 09/21/08 08:58 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
Do you know the difference between intellectualizing, and being the now?
Whenever I try to think about the difference my mind just goes blank and I forget. I wonder why this happens? smile

But seriously, I do not find it easy, yet, to distinguish between the roles played by soma, psyche and pneuma. With the help of others, including sincere experts, I plan to be able to do so sometime before I am called to make the next--that is, next to birth--"great transition" commonly called, death.

My mother--45 when I was born, did it when she was only 50. My father was 64. An older brother, who helped raise my younger sister and I, when he was 92. That was in 2004.

Life truly is an interesting phenomenon, eh?



Edited by Revlgking (09/21/08 10:08 PM)

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#27814 - 09/21/08 09:22 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
Do you know the difference between intellectualizing, and being the now?
Whenever I try to think about the difference my mind just goes blank and I forget. I wonder why this happens? smile


Lack of cognitive ability regarding Truth, or of the basic understanding and experience of the Now.
All of which is also called "Perfect Memory." (not bound to the relative ego)
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27815 - 09/21/08 10:15 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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As I said,
Quote:
But seriously, I do not find it easy, yet, to distinguish between the roles played by soma, psyche and pneuma.

However, With the help of others, including sincere experts, I plan to be able to do so sometime before I am called on to make the next--that is, next to birth and "great transition" commonly called, death.

My mother--45 when I was born--did it when she was only 50. My father was 64. An older brother, the family hero who helped raise my younger sister and I--we are the last in the family of 8--did it when he was 92. What a guy he was! That was in 2004.

Life truly is an interesting phenomenon, eh?
.


Edited by Revlgking (09/21/08 10:20 PM)

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#27816 - 09/21/08 11:14 PM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
As I said,
Quote:
But seriously, I do not find it easy, yet, to distinguish between the roles played by soma, psyche and pneuma.

However, With the help of others, including sincere experts, I plan to be able to do so sometime before I am called on to make the next--that is, next to birth and "great transition" commonly called, death.

My mother--45 when I was born--did it when she was only 50. My father was 64. An older brother, the family hero who helped raise my younger sister and I--we are the last in the family of 8--did it when he was 92. What a guy he was! That was in 2004.

Life truly is an interesting phenomenon, eh?
.

As long as you don't sic the moderator on the help because you're feeling intimidated, help may come in unusual ways.
Also you may have to relax your grip in the definition of dialogue to allow for the destruction of ignorance rather than trying to soothe it.

Life is interesting if one is open to it rather than pushing it away from fear and misunderstanding.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27817 - 09/22/08 12:30 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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I do try to answer your questions (if I can ) . So here I go with an opinion. I do not think that respecting others' sincerely held opinions is a 'win/win situation', I think it is a decent thing to do, and good manners. I am assuming the sincerely held belief is 'nice' and not a conviction that eating people's livers is a good idea (sorry there I go again with the sarcasm!)

TT said;
Universal law unites all things regardless of personality and beliefs in idealism. It stands eternal whereas beliefs and personality are constantly changing and evolving based on conscious awareness of reality.
Evidence of such evolution is the attachment to symbolism. Ideas regarding the nature of reality are translated into idolistic markers that are heavily leaned upon until something better comes along, in which case the old idol is replaced with a new one and with new meanings.

Well said. I would add that when we find that sense of universality we are able to expolore the possibilities of real truth which comes not just from our own ideas but from the connection to absolutely everything that is or ever was or will be. Now that sounds religious so I'll make it clear that I do not believe that the 'is now, ever was, or will be' is god. I just think it IS.

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#27819 - 09/22/08 01:30 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
I would add that when we find that sense of universality we are able to explore the possibilities of real truth which comes not just from our own ideas but from the connection to absolutely everything that is or ever was or will be. Now that sounds religious so I'll make it clear that I do not believe that the 'is now, ever was, or will be' is god. I just think it IS.

Have a thing about the word God do you?
Actually God IS, but then it is the relative connotations given to the isness that limits God and creates dogmatism in belief.
So God is still God. Its the idealism which tries to perfect it in a personal way that breaks the word God down into great or not so great isness....

If you fear to express yourself because you might give the wrong impression or because you think words have some kind of connotation that takes away from your intentions then you aren't so free to say what you mean or want.

Don't be afraid to put it out there. It is not your responsibility to control interpretation by those who cannot connect with you.
The problem with society is that it doesn't connect at a conscious level but tries to connect at the level of personal definitions and belief. It is the long way around the barn..
And those that try extra hard to be accomodating to all beliefs are the ones furthest removed from themselves and their connection to others. They give themselves away by their smoke and mirror diatribe, never investing themselves within their own creation, always trying to protect themselves.
This is what is in spiritual terms called Hell.

Not only do we lock the doors in our homes and build fences around our houses, but we lock the doors on our hearts and build fences around false beliefs because we have little faith in our own humanity.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27820 - 09/22/08 02:04 AM Re: Philosophy of religion: Yours, MIne and Ours.. [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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TT SAID
The problem with society is that it doesn't connect at a conscious level but tries to connect at the level of personal definitions and belief. It is the long way around the barn..
And those that try extra hard to be accomodating to all beliefs are the ones furthest removed from themselves and their connection to others. They give themselves away by their smoke and mirror diatribe, never investing themselves within their own creation, always trying to protect themselves.
This is what is in spiritual terms called Hell.

TT As you know, my problem is that I personally lack any religious belief (in Hell too!) and I am conscious of the distress I can cause by stating that. I normally do not do so, and whilst this is cowardly I suppose, Australia is a tolerant place where we are all allowed our own flights of fancy without ever having to justify our beliefs. I have absolutely no idea what the beliefs of my members of Parliament are for example. It's a country of luke-warm fervour on most things, except sport, and that is not sarcastic, it's true! I like it that way.

I have no issue with the god concept for others who believe, but I myself do not believe it is the truth. I was (as you can imagine) much intrigued by the research into the god spot in the brain, where some people's brains lit up when contemplating god-like things and others--just didn't. I was pleased with that as it reassured me that I was merely reacting as one of the latter group. Incidentally there was, I believe an hereditory factor to the responses. Stands to reason really.

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