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#25435 - 04/14/08 11:12 PM Space Infestation
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
It has been said that no good can come from war, but I argue that lots of good can come from it because throughout the ages there have only been four ways for the planet to control an overpopulation of humans, and those have been Famine, Pestilence, Natural Disaster, and War. Of the four, war has been the only method of over population control where man has any control over the numbers of people lost, and I think that could be considered good, but if it isnít good enough then perhaps through mankindís desire to better kill itself it may find a fifth way of controlling overpopulation and that would be through Space Exploration/Settlement. After only a few more large scale wars where new weapons will be designed and better platforms will be developed to deliver them, then maybe mankind will find the means to infest new planets inside our Solar System and maybe beyond.

P.S. I would like to mention that what I wrote above is not exactly correct because mankind has had a fifth way of controlling overpopulation and that was through Eugenics, but that subject is a topic for another discussion I think.

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#25445 - 04/15/08 05:18 AM Re: Space Infestation [Re: Rallem]
John Warren Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 30
Eugenics = Social Darwinism

It was Tried in the mid 30's to the early 40's.

and it was one of the reasons for WW2

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#25451 - 04/15/08 07:40 PM Re: Space Infestation [Re: Rallem]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Rallem: "there have only been four ways for the planet to control an overpopulation of humans, and those have been Famine, Pestilence, Natural Disaster, and War. Of the four, war has been the only method of over population control where man has any control over the numbers of people lost, and I think that could be considered good..."

- The loss of population in wars is generally incidental to the overall goal and less commonly part of a controlled extermination plan; and I'm sure you don't really think it can be considered good - it's as bad as it gets.

- You haven't mentioned a very effective and undramatic way of controlling population, i.e., reduction of birth rate. Perhaps you intended to include that in a discussion of eugenics. While the extremely bad reputation of eugenics in WW2 was well deserved, it's back in a very different form: prenatal testing and screening, genetic counselling, birth control, in vitro fertilization, and genetic engineering.

Rallem: "perhaps through mankindís desire to better kill itself it may find a fifth way of controlling overpopulation and that would be through Space Exploration/Settlement..."

- Space exploration might at least end the need to keep all the eggs in one basket.

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#25457 - 04/16/08 05:27 AM Re: Space Infestation [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
One of the proven way to reduce population growth is to educate women. Countries that value women's contributions have lower birth rates and healthier populations. When this is allied to high standards of living and social welfare, then people do not have to have huge families in order to have someone survive to care for them in their old age. It has to be a better and more successful idea than war.

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#25475 - 04/16/08 11:30 PM Re: Space Infestation [Re: Ellis]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
redewenur wrote:

- The loss of population in wars is generally incidental to the overall goal and less commonly part of a controlled extermination plan; and I'm sure you don't really think it can be considered good - it's as bad as it gets.

- You haven't mentioned a very effective and undramatic way of controlling population, i.e., reduction of birth rate. Perhaps you intended to include that in a discussion of eugenics. While the extremely bad reputation of eugenics in WW2 was well deserved, it's back in a very different form: prenatal testing and screening, genetic counselling, birth control, in vitro fertilization, and genetic engineering.


Extermination plan? is this what you're calling the tactics of nations and empires which go to war? I will admit the good I am talking of is more like a silver lining in a storm cloud and it is not actual intended as good. I believe that while war can and should be considered hostile, it is far better than any of the other three ways I listed in over population control where there is no real way of limiting the loss of life other than by living in smaller comunities, but if that were possible there would be no need of over population control. As far as Eugenics go, I feel this is they most evil of the methods of over population protection because I am a firm believer in my right and the right of my wife to decide if and how many children we want.

Ellis wrote:

One of the proven way to reduce population growth is to educate women. Countries that value women's contributions have lower birth rates and healthier populations. When this is allied to high standards of living and social welfare, then people do not have to have huge families in order to have someone survive to care for them in their old age. It has to be a better and more successful idea than war.

I have to disagree with you here, but only in semantics. First off, I would have to say it is not proven that countries which educate their women have a lower birth rate, but that is where the statistics lead to, and it is not a direct path. Women who are educated can still wish to have children but in nations where women are eduated they tend to be more prosperous, have a better health care system, and a much lower infant mortality rate, so that less children are needed, but in poorer nations one line of defense against a high infant mortality rate is to have lots of children.

I took a tour of a General's home in the Saratoga New York area where he and his family lived during the American Revolution and during the tour there was a picture of the General's wife over the fire place. I commented on the picture as sort of racy because the Wife's blouse was very revealing and one could almost see the tops of the woman's nipples. The lady who lead the tour did not bat an eye at my question and she said that in those days it was common for a family to have several children because of the high infant mortality rate and as a result the woman had to be able to breast feed at almost any time so the fashion of the day was that it was ok for women to show cleavage and where it was a faupax to show skin was if a woman's elbows showed.

Where was I going with this? I am not really sure. I am having a hard time keeping a single line of thought so I will have to get back to you when I am a litle more clear of mind.



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#25476 - 04/17/08 12:33 AM Re: Space Infestation [Re: Rallem]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rallem wrote:
I have to disagree with you here, ... Women who are educated can still wish to have children but in nations where women are eduated they tend to be more prosperous, have a better health care system, and a much lower infant mortality rate, so that less children are needed, but in poorer nations one line of defense against a high infant mortality rate is to have lots of children.

That's exactly what I said. It takes a longish time but by educating women you establish a skill for them which is then useful to the society in which they live so they are employable and become taxpayers. They are then contributors to the actual wealth in their community, have greater independence and their society is able to provide welfare, education and support for the woman and her family, which is likely to be smaller then it would have been. In my opinion the most important thing that science has done for society is the discovery of the contraceptive pill, which allows women, for the first time ever, to control their fertility. Society is still trying to work it all out. Things have changed a lot.

Actually many modern men enjoy the equality of partnership possible with today's bright young women, and it is good to live in a time when the General's husband's attire may equally be the centre of discussion!

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#25479 - 04/17/08 01:22 AM Re: Space Infestation [Re: Ellis]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Ellis wrote:

That's exactly what I said. It takes a longish time but by educating women you establish a skill for them which is then useful to the society in which they live so they are employable and become taxpayers. They are then contributors to the actual wealth in their community, have greater independence and their society is able to provide welfare, education and support for the woman and her family, which is likely to be smaller then it would have been. In my opinion the most important thing that science has done for society is the discovery of the contraceptive pill, which allows women, for the first time ever, to control their fertility. Society is still trying to work it all out. Things have changed a lot.

That's not exactly what you said because you trimmed down the cause and effect some just as you trimmed down my response for some reason.

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#25482 - 04/17/08 04:30 AM Re: Space Infestation [Re: Rallem]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
I left out the semantics bit, because I do not think it is a question of semantics here, and I left out the bit disagreeing that educating woman leads to a lower birth rate (and I would suggest a higher standard of living) because it is in fact so. It happens everywhere it happens. How can you then dismiss the statistics when you claim,

First off, I would have to say it is not proven that countries which educate their women have a lower birth rate, but that is where the statistics lead to, and it is not a direct path.

I agree it certainly is where the statistics lead to. It takes a while obviously... perhaps a generation or two, but it is measurable and the data supports my suggestion- and for the reasons I have given in the previous post.

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#25486 - 04/17/08 02:02 PM Re: Space Infestation [Re: Rallem]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
My comment: "The loss of population in wars is generally incidental to the overall goal and less commonly part of a controlled extermination plan."

Rallem's reply: "Extermination plan? is this what you're calling the tactics of nations and empires which go to war?"

Rallem, why distort what I said? - I suggest you read it again, carefully. The highlights may help you.

Many attempts at extermination have occurred, some of which you are almost certainly aware. However, if you're not, and you're interested, google 'wars of extermination'.

Rallem: "I am a firm believer in my right and the right of my wife to decide if and how many children we want."

How do you feel about the Chinese birth control policy?

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#25507 - 04/18/08 10:40 PM Re: Space Infestation [Re: redewenur]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I will address other stuff later on, but the question on how I feel about the Chinese birth control policy is this. I would not want to live there for that and other reasons.

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#25510 - 04/18/08 11:27 PM Re: Space Infestation [Re: Ellis]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Originally Posted By: Ellis
I left out the semantics bit, because I do not think it is a question of semantics here, and I left out the bit disagreeing that educating woman leads to a lower birth rate (and I would suggest a higher standard of living) because it is in fact so. It happens everywhere it happens. How can you then dismiss the statistics when you claim,

First off, I would have to say it is not proven that countries which educate their women have a lower birth rate, but that is where the statistics lead to, and it is not a direct path.

I agree it certainly is where the statistics lead to. It takes a while obviously... perhaps a generation or two, but it is measurable and the data supports my suggestion- and for the reasons I have given in the previous post.



First off I don't think I disagreed with you about the education of women in nations leading to a reduction of birth rate, and I think I was saying that the process was longer than just educating the women, but I think we are agreeing here.

I can dismiss statistics when they are presented to the effect that statistics prove something or another because I've been to school, and I took statistics so I know that unless certain subjects are covered like how the information was gathered, and how the data was weighed, or what is the percentage of confidence in the figures, then the statistics are pretty much useless to me. Another point of interest when looking at statistics is identifying what the intent of person who gathered this data and compiled it was when he or she began the project because that has a significant impact on the outcome and interpretation of the statistics.

I know there is a joke out there which says that 90% of all statistics can say anything 50% of the time, but to an extent that is very true, and unless information like what I listed and more is presented then the statistics are useless.

One thing I remember my Statistics Instructor at Champlain College told me was that when taking it upon yourself you should ask yourself what you would want the statistics to say and then look for exactly the opposite result because it was too easy to find information which agrees with your preconceived notions.

Back to how I can dismiss statistics. No not really, first off Ellis I would like to say that I admire your sticking up to me and telling me exactly how you feel and what you think, because unlike most I do not automatically think I am right just because I am me, and as old age effects me, as well as other stuff which I donít want to talk about I am finding that I am more often wrong lately, but I still like a good healthy argument every now and then. Now back to how I can dismiss statistic. Ellis you said that statistics prove your point, but you did not post any of those statistics, any of the information I described above, or even provide a URL for a site where you got these statistics.

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#25511 - 04/18/08 11:41 PM Re: Space Infestation [Re: redewenur]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Originally Posted By: redewenur
My comment: "The loss of population in wars is generally incidental to the overall goal and less commonly part of a controlled extermination plan."

Rallem's reply: "Extermination plan? is this what you're calling the tactics of nations and empires which go to war?"

Rallem, why distort what I said? - I suggest you read it again, carefully. The highlights may help you.

Many attempts at extermination have occurred, some of which you are almost certainly aware. However, if you're not, and you're interested, google 'wars of extermination'.

Rallem: "I am a firm believer in my right and the right of my wife to decide if and how many children we want."

How do you feel about the Chinese birth control policy?


Redewenur, I will get back to you. I took care of three emergencies at the same time here at work not too long ago and another just popped up.

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