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#18887 - 03/13/07 02:57 AM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: dr_rocket]
Wayne Zeller Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: dr_rocket
Maybe the SciFi forum is the place for this thread.


I might just be taking it wrong (text is such an awful medium),but I think I sense some derision there. If so, can you kindly point out anything I said that doesn't agree with the currently accepted models of the universe?

w

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#18911 - 03/13/07 06:59 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Wayne Zeller]
dr_rocket Offline
Member

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 196
Loc: Palo Alto, CA, USA
Hi Wayne,

No not derision! If you recall, my original comment, way, way back, was that this thread might be better placed in the physics forum rather than in here in the SciFi forum. ;)Some of the post here are at least somewhat questionable. Rather than start an arguement, a little tongue in cheek cat calling suits me better.

I must say that I have more or less lost track of what is being discussed. I get busy on occasion. Some nonsense seems to have crept in. Your comments, on the other hand, seem to indicate that you have taken the time to study some physics and especially special relativity theory. Bravo!

Dr. R.


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#18922 - 03/14/07 01:27 AM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: MrBiGG78]
Wayne Zeller Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Southern California
Cool. Thanks for letting me know I'd taken it wrong. Text is an awful medium for transmitting attitudes, and every now and then somebody takes offense who oughtn't.

Back to the thread...

Originally Posted By: MrBiGG78
What if time dilation is not the only way to explain the results of the experiments you mention here?
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek/spap5.html


I feel for the poor guy. New ideas are rarely taken seriously if they stand in the face of "what is known". It's part of what makes revolution so difficult.

However, I also think he has probably changed his mind since writing that paper. Either that, or he doesn't do much research. Or he's a crackpot.

The reason I'm so certain on this one is the GPS satellite network. Before it was launched, there was actually quite a lot of heated debate over whether or not time dilation would be an issue or even exist. They knew how to correct for it, but didn't know for an absolute certainly that they would have to. (More accurately, some scientists knew for a fact they would need to correct for it and other scientists knew for a fact that they wouldn't need to.)

To settle the matter and avoid further delays, they built in the correction algorhythms, but left them turned off. After launch, they could observe if they were needed or not, and turn them on if necessary.

The effect was astonishingly powerful. Their onboard atomic clocks gained 38 microseconds per day. That's 38,000 (yes, thirty-eight thousand) nanoseconds on a system that requires a clock accuracy of just 20-30 nanoseconds. The effect is that the system gets off by about 10 kilometers per day. Without adjustments, the whole thing would be utterly worthless very quickly.

The gentleman that wrote that paper would be hard pressed to explain that with his theories, I think.

W

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#24391 - 12/01/07 02:11 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: MrBiGG78]
PSS Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 3
I just ran across this post about an atemporal universe. Just thought you might like to known that what you were discussing may prove to be one of the most fundamental issues in the search for quantum gravity. The physicist Carlo Rovelli is the best known proponent of an atemporal model, and the philosopher Hue Price argues for it from another perspective. I have a summary of the arguments on www.ws5.com/spacetime

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#25097 - 03/11/08 11:17 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Wayne Zeller]
Kevat Shah Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 37
Loc: Grenada
How do we know that the speed of light always seems the same? I've tried looking for this data, but cant find what I'm looking for. How did Einstein come to know that the speed of light is always 186,000 mps no matter how fast you are going relative to it?
_________________________
- Kevat Shah

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#25099 - 03/12/08 01:23 AM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Wayne Zeller]
Kevat Shah Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 37
Loc: Grenada
According to the guy who wrote the paper on helical particles, shouldn't the GPS's clock be off? As he said, the clocks in motion aren't actually experiencing a slowdown of time, they are just experiencing a change in their shape and hence their physical properties. This would throw the GPS off as to what time it is and where its supposed to be at that time...right? Or am I making a mistake understanding something?
_________________________
- Kevat Shah

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#26634 - 06/15/08 11:58 AM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: MrBiGG78]
amrito Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 8
YES universe is atemporal
the only time exists is NOW

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=1

amrit

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#26635 - 06/15/08 12:04 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: MrBiGG78]
amrito Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 8
What was, still is, and always will be such is the truth of the eternal now.

with another words:

in the universe we can observe only motion of energy into atemporal space, motion of energy means irreversible stream of material change that run into atemporal space

time enters into existence when one start measuring it

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#27072 - 07/11/08 09:04 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: amrito]
MrBiGG78 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 30
Loc: Gatineau, QC
Funny how 8 months after starting this thread I'm seraching on google for 'Atemporal Universe' and this is the first result.

It's been 8 months, long time since I visisted this website, I have a new job.. but for some reason if you add up all the energy contained in the Universe, it's still the same. Nothing at it's most fundamental level has vanished from the Universe or come into exsistence.

There has only been continuous motion throughout the Universe.

All I experience is 'now' all I will ever expereience is 'now'. I remember the past and I have expectations for the futur, but I do so now.

Well maybe we see a little bit in the past since all we see is a mental reproduction of a photonic reaction on our retina that is being transmited electrically to our neurons through the optical nerves. And I believe that apart form quantum entanglement, data transmission is never truely instantenous.
_________________________
What was, still is, and always will be such is the truth of the eternal now.

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#27081 - 07/12/08 10:14 AM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: MrBiGG78]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
By my opinion, the perceivable reality is always based on some symmetry duality, the space/time duality in particular. In atemporal universe no motion could occur. By another words, amrito just replaces "time" concept by "motion" concept, while predicting nothing useful by using of such substitution.

The Aether Wave Theory is based on concept of infinitelly hot and dense particle matter, forming the time and space. The chaotic motion of Aether particles corresponds the concept of "motion" without apparent "time arrow" (the movie of such motion can be reversed without apparent change in causality) - but we can see, the "time" concept is still more general then the "time arrow" concept.

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#27187 - 07/19/08 07:50 AM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Zephir]
amrito Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 8

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#27196 - 07/19/08 10:22 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: amrito]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: amrito
Yep, I know your ideas, Amrito. But personally, I consider the atemporal concept somehow unbalanced. The Universe is based on dynamic equilibrium of dualities: space-time, matter-energy, and so on. The removal of time or space concepts bring an unpleasant reductionism into such view, thus removing its internal symmetry. It's like to constrain all perspective to the internal perspective only, while neglecting the outside view. This doesn't says, the atemporal Universe is nonsense, it's just one of many particular perspectives, which our Universe allows. Some others are proposing the Universe composed of time or energy with the same "success".


By AWT the time is the spatial coordinate perpendicular the Aether density gradient, defining the space. From this point of view, the time can be defined by geometry of underlying space, so I can understand your perspective. The only problem is, this concept must remain recursive to be working. From this point of view the avoidance of time coordinate in physical models brings no significant simplification - on the contrary. After all, the atemporal concept isn't nothing very new here (I know the atemporal ideas of J.A. Wheeler, D. Bohm, P. Yourgrau, Dennis A. Wright,J. Barbour's,P. Lynds, Ron Larther and some others) - but I'm still missing some testable predictions of these concepts. The acceptance of atemporal concept is mainly utilitarian problem, not the technical one. If you ask the people to believe in your concept, you should provide them some advantage in understanding for it.

A. Einstein: "Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler".

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#27755 - 09/15/08 06:40 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Zephir]
amrito Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 8
Zephir yes there is duality in the universe: gravitational energy that builds up space and energy of matter, there two energies are transforming into each other........

and space-time here is only a structural quality of gravitational field, formed by the observer into process of measurment......

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#27756 - 09/15/08 10:04 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: amrito]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: amrito
..yes there is duality in the universe...
Well, just because here's a duality, you cannot separate the time and space concepts: they're always existing together. By AWT the formation of space-time is manifestation of gradient (inhomogeneity) in Aether density, i.e. the asymmetry in energy density spreading.

So at the moment, such inhomogeneity occurs, the space dimensions are larger (flat) directions defining the shape of such gradient, while the time dimension(s) are the shorter ones. So you cannot the atemporal Universe without time: whenever sme space is created, the energy spreading requires some TIME to spread from one place to another.

It's as easy, as it is. Or not?

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#28356 - 11/16/08 03:11 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Zephir]
PSS Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 3
The existence or non-existence of temporality in our universe is a very, very deep and fundamental question. The respected physicist Carlo Rovelli has spent a lifetime working on the problem. Your comments that energy spreading requires time does not answer the "which came first the chicken or the egg" question? Does "spreading" occur over fundamental (T)ime that exists or does "spreading" create a derived (t)ime over which it is measured? The answer to that question determines if we live in an atemporal universe or not. Please visit www.ws5.com/spacetime for a lengthy discussion and links.

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#28360 - 11/16/08 03:32 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: PSS]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: PSS
...comments that energy spreading requires time does not answer the "which came first the chicken or the egg" question?...
The way, which you put the question implies an tautology (the answer should be always "yes"). Beause "first" is time related word, not space related one. The time must be always first for such question to have some meaning.

By my opinion, space is immanent part of space-time by the same way, like time and they can be separated. If you're really looking for something, which is independent to both above concepts, it can be an Aether - i.e. fully chaotic atemporal environment with no time arrow perceivable as well.

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#28361 - 11/16/08 03:36 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: PSS]
Thislin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
I have always seen time zs an illusion, like so many things. We should not think of the future or of the past as places (to which we might travel). The only thing that can be said to exist is the present.

The present changes, and we can see traces of its previous states in various ways (memories, physical constructions, etc.) We can also make predictions about the future states of the present to the extent that we understand the rules by which the present changes.

On the surface this concept of time seems to conflict with the notion of time as part of a four-dimensional thing called "space-time," but a variety of approaches can be used to resolve this.


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#28386 - 11/18/08 04:42 AM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Thislin]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Quote:
I have always seen time zs an illusion, like so many things


The blind bat mouse would see the space as an illusion instead, because it navigates itself through space by using of time intervals.

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#28387 - 11/18/08 08:31 AM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Zephir]
Thislin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
Originally Posted By: Zephir
Quote:
I have always seen time zs an illusion, like so many things


The blind bat mouse would see the space as an illusion instead, because it navigates itself through space by using of time intervals.
What you say is true enough, but I don't see where it demonstrates that the concept of past and future as places are not illusions. Metaphors can only illustrate, not prove--that is, they are not evidence. Indeed, the more I think about it, the more trivial your point becomes, having next to nothing to do with the subject.

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#28397 - 11/18/08 11:21 PM Re: Atemporal Universe? [Re: Thislin]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Thislin
can only illustrate, not prove
The bat example isn't just a void metaphore - it's a real clue, how the aspatial Universe can be constructed by dual way to the atemporal one with the same relevancy to physics.

You should become familiar with AWT Theory, which effectively renders both aspatial, both atemporal universe as a special cases of this theory. By AWT each interpretation is a matter of observational perspective, insintric or extrinsic one. By AWT each space-time concept is asymmetric Aether density fluctuation, where spatial dimensions are perpendicular/normal to the temporal one(s). If you will observe an Aether foam from sufficiently distant (extrinsic) perspective, you'll see just a density fluctuations resting in atemporal space - so I've no problem with your stance, at least conceptually.

My problem is, the Atemporal universe concept brings no testable predictions into physics, being too remote from our everyday perspective - so it remains useless in my eyes. If it would bring some, I'd use it without problem, because - as I've said already - it's just one of many ways, how the AWT can be interpreted.

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