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True DA,

Then he would weep and figure he could try again in another 2000 years after humanity had pushed itself back into the Stone Age. Sort of the etch a sketch Armageddeon.

"And the actual commandments:"

I told you it was a only a summarization. But it is the historical interpretation of both Jews and Christians.

"No need to apologize. Nothing at SAGG is on of off topic, especially not in the Origins forum, as the moderators seemingly don't desire to put chlorine into the pool no matter how often they are urged to do so."

Gotcha. Thanks for letting me know.

Blacknad wrote:
"That was the context it was written in and makes perfect sense to translate it as such."

So you, a falliable human being, are now the arbiter of what god intended when he gave Moses those tablets. You are so perfect in your thinking, your interpretation, and your understanding of what things were like in the desert 3500 years ago that you can make this statement?

Blacknad wrote:
"The cultures the Jews came into contact with created statues and images and prayed to and worshipped them as gods."

Pretty much the same as what one sees today when goes into a Roman Catholic church and watches people pray to a statue (image) of Jesus Christ.
Wow! What a relief to see that interpretation in action. Too bad that's not what God wrote. But then again I guess if you can ignore the commandment on murder and wage holy wars why should one of the other commandments be any more important.

Well I've got a really great idea. Since you know better than god how to write those first two commandments ... how about taking a whack at fixing the rest of Genesis: Just like King Henry XIII.

Seriously Blacknad? Doesn't this just reek of hypocrisy? A human claiming to know better than a god what the god should have written?

"If the JWs and the Mormons are considered cultists by the rest of the Christian sects yet they believe they are correct, what right do we have to say they are incorrect?"

The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have been labeled cults because they reject central doctrines of the Christian faith. Of course there are other reasons. The claim that only they have God's Word and that all of Christendom has perverted the truth is pretty much a giveaway that a purportedly "Christian" group is illegitimate.

"You admit that there human agencies have edited the word of God as it contradicted what was already in the Bible."

The Apocryphal (which ironically means "fictitious") texts were not accepted as God-inspired before they were canonized by the Roman Catholic Church. No books were removed from the Bible, but in some denominations (e.g. Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy), books have been added to the canon. Jews and Protestant Christians believe these books to be superfluous and, in many cases, contrary to Biblical Scripture.

"My question is what mortal, human agency has the right to decide what is contradictory? The Old and New Testament are completely different in tone - eye for an eye versus forgiveness, who are we to say that one is more correct then the other?"

Christianity's New Testament was never intended to supplant Judaism's Old Testament, rather fulfill it. I'll try to illustrate what I mean: "God creates us for His pleasure, and we are granted the gift of free will. We abuse this gift, so we are fallen, fallible, in need of redemption. A loving God with perfect standards seeks to reestablish a relationship with His creation. He chooses a people from which He will send a Redeemer and gives them laws showing them what He expects. Of course, they can never live up to these standards, so God sends a Savior to His people, through which Man and God may be reconciled. But God seeks a relationship with ALL His creation, not only His chosen people. So God temporarily blinds them to the truth, so that others may come to know Him. However, God made it clear from the beginning: only blood atones for sin. He would not ask one of us to die on behalf of humanity, so God comes to us as one of us, feeling everything we feel, experiencing all that we experience. Having lived a flawlessly righteous life, He is undeserving of death, but out of love for His creation, He allows Himself to be slain in our stead. God Himself takes our punishment, so that justice is served and that we might know Him as never before. To symbolize our freedom from sin and separation, He raises Himself from the grave." It's not a replacement... It's only another chapter. The Bible is not just a book of laws and lessons... It's a love story.

- This is not a commandment and is represented in all Bibles (or the eight Bibles I looked it up in) as nearly identically as:

Ex 20:2
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
(from New International Version)

Pretty much what you have there.

Are you expecting a straight translation, because as you know, it doesn't work and is pretty much illegible?

Blacknad.

- You are confusing this with number one, which is not "brought you out who your God Adonai I am from the house of bondage from the land of Egypt." as you have said (which is actually the introduction), but is as you written for number two "before me other gods you shall have Not."

Actual one and two are as Wombat has written them:

1. Do not put any other gods before Me.
2. Do not make for yourself any graven image (idol) to worship.

Now I know you have some kind of case but I cannot work out what it is yet.

Regards,

Blacknad.

Wombat,

Read your last paragraph and try for 5 minutes to forget your belief in God.

Let me try it this way.

Your "loving" deity creates us for "his pleasure". Your deity then gets upset when we excercise our free will that he gave us. Your deity then pulls this action

"Of course, they can never live up to these standards, so God sends a Savior to His people, through which Man and God may be reconciled. But God seeks a relationship with ALL His creation, not only His chosen people. So God temporarily blinds them to the truth, so that others may come to know Him. However, God made it clear from the beginning: only blood atones for sin."
and it is plainly stated that only a blood sacrifice will atone for sins, sounds a bit heathen don't you think, perhaps Satanic. Never minding the fact that God "blinded" people to the truth so he could have his play with Jesus.

So next in this comes: " Having lived a flawlessly righteous life, He is undeserving of death, but out of love for His creation, He allows Himself to be slain in our stead. God Himself takes our punishment, so that justice is served and that we might know Him as never before. To symbolize our freedom from sin and separation, He raises Himself from the grave."

Now you call this a love story. May I ask what all of God's suffering accomplished for him or humanity? How does his dying serve any justice at all since he knew going into it that he would raise from the grave and therefore the sacrifice is symbolic at most. He only reappeared to a small group of people, one would think that if he wanted to make a point he wold have reappeared before Pontius Pilate, the rabbis and all his enemies to prove to them once and for all that he was God and leave no doubt as to the truth. He did not.

Look, the Christian Bible is a rehash of all the old shaman and pagan myths of old. It has been readapted for a different culture and a different time but that is all.

Every religion that has ever existed has numerous death and resurrection myths, numerous miraculous healings, numerous raising of humans from the dead. At the time of the height of those religions the followers believed devoutly that their deities were the only correct ones. before you state that the Bible is the only written text look at Egyptian heiroglyphs and Roman writings. All their gods and goddesses are spoken off and written about.

Christianity and Christ are not special, they are just a new take on old thoughts. Sorry.

I believe that there is something in nature that holds everything together, do I believe it has a plan, no. Do I beleive it is sentient? In some form yes, but not as we understand it. The reason I believe that is because the myths are so similar and the religions are all the same inherently. Either that, or humantity has a predisposed fixation with death, resurrecction and megalomania.

By the way, you failed to really address any of the issues I raised. You restated that the JWs and the Mormons are incorrect because other sects think so but failed to address the point I raised as to how this helps validate any religions claim that it is correct.

Also the fact that the Catholics, who claim the Pope is a direct link to God's will, added books were as Protestants state the Catholics are incorrect in adding them once again shows me that none of them have any real idea about God. Neither do I, but I do not teach people that my way is the right way mainly because I have no way.

I was reading online the Gospel of Thomas.
I think I prefer it to the rest of the Bible.
I assume it was not cannonized because it would lead to disempowerment of the church.

http://www.gospelthomas.com/

Do average Christians really believe it is ficticious, in comparison to the rest of the Bible just because the church deemed it so?
Well, ficticious or not, it still seems to have some great spiritual truths in there. A preferable description, in my opinion of the Invisible Purple Rhino by his human son.

Justine:
Average Christians are the result of brainwashing. They equate the use of critical thinking and Boolean logic to blasphemy.

Lillith is absolutely correct. If the best the creator of the universe can do to communicate with the imperfect creatures he created is to do a symbolic death he needs Karl Rove.

In skimming through the links in the Thomas site I am not surprised tha the Catholics/other Christians did not like it. Christ speaks of equality for women, and "lies upon the bed" of Salome which hints at sexual relations. Heaven forbid Christ had sex. I never understood that, what exactly do they think he was doing from the ages of 12 to 30 something? I am sure they have the standard response of studying and fasting and such but I think he was living, like everyone else.

Justine, there are many things that have been written that different religious groups dislike, I feel if one part or story of Christ is true and it is all supposed to be the WORD OF GOD, then it is all true. At least that is what logic would dictate.

One thing for sure is he enjoyed the company of a hooker and there is not a single sentence indicating he did not enjoy her company. Gee I wonder why the other disciples were jealous?

Lillith ... you might want to reread your last paragraph. I suspect it is not what you intended. Perhaps ... if one part is "NOT" true .... then how can one rely on any of it.

I think either way the paragraph works. It is either all true or all false since all Christian religions state that their bible is the Word of God so either it is all true or all wrong.

Amen. ;-)

I find it amazing the cognitive impairment that must exist for someone to on one hand say:

"It is the word of god"

and on the other say:

"It requires interpretation and I have the unique ability to interpret it for you."

I can communicate quite well with my cat. Surely a deity could do a better job of communicating love than through a faked blood sacrifice or a book that inspires debate and warfare even among those that claim to believe in its authenticity.

These people need to get real. Lets see if I've got this right.

1. Create the universe and all life forms ... check
1. Flood entire planet in time of Noah ... check
2. Plagues on Egypt ... check
3. Armageddon ... check
3. Couple of Roman thugs with a hammer and nails ... sorry no can do

What a crock!

Well DA,

Cats are gods, they have not forgotten Egypt and will never let us forget either. Sad to say that a cat does better at controlling it's humans then all knowing God.

(I can see the torches now, "She's a witch may we burn her?" for all you Python buffs.)

"Your 'loving' deity creates us for "his pleasure". Your deity then gets upset when we excercise our free will that he gave us. Your deity then pulls this action."

God gave us free will because He wanted us to love and serve Him voluntarily, so we wouldn't be mindless automatons. However, God has rules. It's our choice whether we abide by them or not, but with free will comes responsibility. Actions trigger reactions. All decisions come with consequences. And God made it clear what the consequences of sin would be - spiritual death. Man abused (and continues to abuse) free will. It's not God's fault.

"And it is plainly stated that only a blood sacrifice will atone for sins, sounds a bit heathen don't you think, perhaps Satanic."

The essence of life is in the blood. The wages of sin is death. Therefore, blood is required for atonement. It would have been perfectly just to simply "let us die," but, out of His love for us, He provided a way out. It may sound heathen or even Satanic to you, but this is a fundamental spiritual truth. Here's the thing: God sacrificed Himself in our place so we wouldn't have to face judgment. Our penalty is paid in full. Justice is served, and we now have nothing to fear. Such is the Gospel message.

"Never minding the fact that God 'blinded' people to the truth so he could have his play with Jesus."

We Christians believe that God temporarily blinded the Jews with regards to the identification of the Messiah, so that Gentiles (non-Jews) would have the opportunity to into a relationship with Him. It's not deception. And using phrases like "have His play with Jesus," are not only demeaning and disrespectful, but ignorant. We see Jesus Christ as God the Son incarnate, both fully Man and fully God. We love the Lord and take very seriously His sacrifice... It's not some dumb puzzle. You are entitled to your opinions, but please try and be a bit more considerate.

"Now you call this a love story. May I ask what all of God's suffering accomplished for him or humanity? How does his dying serve any justice at all since he knew going into it that he would raise from the grave and therefore the sacrifice is symbolic at most."

The Bible explicitly states, "The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing." I honestly don't expect you to understand (even Bible scholars are preplexed by its tacit meanings). One way to get a better understanding of the implications of Christ's sacrifice is by examining the feasts and festivals in the Torah (for example, the Passover supper). But I think I know what you're asking. We all die eventually, so what's so special about Jesus dying on the cross? The difference is, we are all stained from our own sin. Our deaths are deserving. Christ, on the other hand, was unblemished, perfectly righteous. His death was undeserving, therefore He was in a unique position. He was able to take on the sins of others. Spiritual "death" is separation from God, and Jesus suffered this. "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?" The Father was separated from the Son, which (from an emotional standpoint), must have been torment (after spending an eternity as One). You're getting into pretty deep theology. lol

"He only reappeared to a small group of people, one would think that if he wanted to make a point he wold have reappeared before Pontius Pilate, the rabbis and all his enemies to prove to them once and for all that he was God and leave no doubt as to the truth. He did not."

Christ's closest friends saw Him resurrected (Even His disciples found it difficult to believe). A multitude saw Him ascend. The high priests knew something was up, otherwise they wouldn't have instructed the guards to keep silent about what they saw. Two thousand years later, over two billion people identify themselves as His followers. I'd say He proved His point. But like I said before, God doesn't just want us to have head knowledge. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but He also also wants us to have heart knowledge. When we have the courage to take that step of faith, He begins revealing Himself to us.

"Look, the Christian Bible is a rehash of all the old shaman and pagan myths of old. It has been readapted for a different culture and a different time but that is all."

Shaman myths? The Christian Gospel message is rooted in the practices and prophecies of ancient Judaism. The first Christians were observant Jews. And the Jews were the first group of people to recognize the idea of "One God" (monotheism). To put it plainly, pagans HATED Jews. Other nations welcomed the Romans because they brought order. Israel believed in One supreme Being (no room for Caesar). This is one thing to consider when investigating why the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. While those pagan religions are long gone, Judeo-Christianity (which has endured much terrible persecution) is still thriving.

"Every religion that has ever existed has numerous death and resurrection myths, numerous miraculous healings, numerous raising of humans from the dead."

First of all, not "every religion that has ever existed" tells of death and resurrection. I think you're exaggerating just a little bit (lol). Mithras, Osiris, Adonis, etc. Yes, I find it interesting that this has been a recurring theme throughout sacred history. I don't see the problem, though. Personally, I think it's fascinating.

"Christianity and Christ are not special, they are just a new take on old thoughts."

Whereas other religions have followers dying for their deities, Christianity holds that God died on OUR behalf. What Christianity offers is very unique: a personal relationship with our Creator. In Islam, for instance, Allah is said to be so transcendant that followers could never hope to know him personally. Other religions have ceremonies and rituals meant to "appease" their god(s). Christianity holds that anyone who simply accepts (by sincerely believing) what Christ did for us is justified and spiritually made pure. Heck, Muslims, no matter how many times a day they pray or attend mosque, don't even have the assurance they will be "good enough" to be accepted into Heaven. Also, my own personal experiences have convinced me of the healing and prophetic power of God. Nothing can convince me He's not not active in my life, in the lives of my family, and in the lives of fellow believers.

"Sorry."

I forgive you.

"The reason I believe that is because the myths are so similar and the religions are all the same inherently. Either that, or humantity has a predisposed fixation with death, resurrecction and megalomania."

Eh, that's not true. It's good at least that you recognize there's "something" out there. lol But I think it's fair to say yours the typical skeptical perspective: View all religions collectively. Many skeptics also often equate "belief in God" (theism) with organized religion. Judeo-Christianity may share ideas with world religions, but the messages are radically different.

"By the way, you failed to really address any of the issues I raised. You restated that the JWs and the Mormons are incorrect because other sects think so but failed to address the point I raised as to how this helps validate any religions claim that it is correct."

I'd prefer not to go too far into this. The polytheistic Mormon religion is a historical, doctrinal, and anthropological nightmare. And Jehovah's Witnesses think that Christ went to Brooklyn and started a magazine (lol). Both sects censure Christian symbols. I hope you see the difference. If it helps, trying looking up "cult" on Wikipedia for a more definitive answer.

"Also the fact that the Catholics, who claim the Pope is a direct link to God's will, added books were as Protestants state the Catholics are incorrect in adding them once again shows me that none of them have any real idea about God."

Just because two groups have disagreements, that certainly doesn't mean neither group knows what they're talking about. You won't be able to apply this reasoning anywhere outside religion.

"Neither do I, but I do not teach people that my way is the right way mainly because I have no way."

In that case, I guess you lose by default. Look, why don't you just ask? If you are honestly seeking an answer, sincerely and with an open heart, ask God to reveal Himself to you. I have every confidence that He will answer. You just have to be looking for it. There's no harm ..or shame.. in asking.

Oh, I probably won't be able to reply for a while. I'm kinda getting bogged down with work. I hope you'll understand.

~ Wet Wombat

Oh boy, you're giving me the choice of going link happy or just out and out pointing out the flaw in you're understanding of shaman and pagan beliefs.

I will be brief as I am at work and probably half the sites are blocked.

Let me run the premise of Winter Solstice and Beltane/May first by you. In winter the god died and in spring he was reborn. JUST ABOUT EVERY PAGAN BELIEF SYSTEM HAS A FORM OF THIS. The god died, the goddess took him back into her and he was reborn into the world so that the crops and such would prosper. If that is not sacrifice so that humanity my live I do not know what is.
How about the Greek/Roman myth of Prometheus who according to Wikipedia is "As the introducer of fire and inventor of sacrifice he is seen as the patron of human civilization. Uncertain sources claim he was worshipped in ancient Rome as well along with other gods." Who was punished in part for stealing fire to help his creations, humans, survive? He was forced to have his liver eaten for several thousand years. Click on the following link for the only page that was not blocked on my search. Goes into great detail as to other virgin births, resurrections, sacrifices and godmen. The second one takes you to an overview.

http://www.entheology.org/POCM/index.htm
http://www.entheology.org/POCM/borrowing_getting_started.html


I am pagan, I have spoken and interacted with my god and goddess far more intimately then I bet you have as I practice magic not prayer. I feel the energy in the world around me, not channeled through some priest who acts as a conduit.

Why does your God state that we are born with original sin because we used the very thing that he blessed us with? I have not done a single evil thing in my life, with the exception of some fornication. Why should I repent? Why should I feel guilty for being human?

Christianity is a religion based on guilt and the premise that we owe God something. I refuse to go through life feeling guilty for something I did not do, nor do I feel the need to go through life praising some deity who allows the most devout of his followers to suffer over and over again. I have seen many a good Christian put through trials and tribulations beyond reckoning. What is the reason for that?

I believe that the reason Christ constantly used the Samaritans who were the heathens of the time as examples of how to live is because they were following his path whereas the Rabbis and the Jews were not.

Furthermore, as far as applying the logic of one group religious group condemning the other and not applying that outside of religion. In most other realms people are willing to compromise, in religion most believers refuse to see any other path so there is no need to be always right or always wrong. If the Protestants are wrong and the Catholics are right does that mean the Protestants go to hell?

As far as Christ being the only man ever put to death that was undeserving, give me a break!! I am sure that since you feel that we all have sins that children who are killed in wars are deserving to die, that mothers who sacrifice themselves to save their children are deserving of their deaths.

If you believe that we are inherently sinners then you are the loser by default because you choose to live with a guilt that was never yours and never should have been yours.

If a human father acted the way the heavenly one does he would be locked up.

As far as the healing power of God, sweetheart, prayer is magic. It is your will that is healing and protecting not some remote deity. God and all deities are simply symbolic ways for us to channel our own energies to affect the world around us.

(DA, I have probably completely made you bats with these last statements but sorry).

I apologize for the segmented nature of this post but you hit every single button that infuriates me so much about religion.

"Rule in hell or serve in heaven, choose an altar or a throne." A line from a song I know. Personally hell is a lot more appealing, at lease I will have Mozart, Confucious, Socrates, Plato, all the good music and even Gandhi ( I believe he was not Christian therefore going to hell).

You will have Mother Theresa, not bad, Jesus and his followers and perhaps the few remaining priests who are not pedophiles.

Sorry for the bluntess of this post.

Wet Wombat wrote:
"God gave us free will because He wanted us to love and serve Him voluntarily,"

Would you please, if you can, step out of your brainwashed disciple of Christ mode and take a good look at what you wrote.

Thanks.

Now what are the characteristics of a father, a human father for example, who had children and wanted them to worship him? What words would come to mind when describing this person?

1. Conceited?
2. Egotistical?
3. Immature?
4. Childish?
5. ... go for it.

You get the point.

The problem with your deity, were it to exist, is that it has shown a remarkable willingness to murder its children when they don't do so.

Don't believe me? How many perished during 40 years wandering in the desert? Answer: All of them!

And then we can always get back to the creation of smallpox, malaria, leukemaia, AIDS, SARS, typhoid, and the other gifts given to mankind by your loving father.