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#12850 - 10/09/05 10:41 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad creating fantasy from fiction yet again wrote:
"If an entity created this universe, then necessarily that entity would sit outside the realm of our direct experience."

So Moses was a liar? Along with every other saint from Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology. Wow you really are on your own wavelength. You just toss it all to the wind and write whatever nonsense you think will sound good at the moment.

Has it dawned on you that other people use their brains to perform something called critical thinking? Do you know what critical thinking is?

How can you expect anyone to read your long dissertations when one can punch a hole the size of an aircraft carrier in your very first sentence? Are you truly as incapable of thinking as it appears? A simple YES or NO answer will suffice.
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DA Morgan

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#12851 - 10/09/05 10:45 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Ric asks:
" If there is a "God"-- an omnipotent being who had the power to create the whole universe singlehandedly-- why wouldn't he have the power to create all the complexities we discover in it?"

Well of course he would. No question about it. But if he did then he would know about penicillin. He would therefore have the opportunity to make one of the following two conscious choices.

1. Tell people to prevent the unnecessary painful suffering and death of billions.

2. Keep it a secret and let people, thousands of years later, find it for themselves.

The first choice would demonstrate a god that cared about his creations, valued life, and saw as horrible the suffering of innocent young children.

The second choice would demonstrate an unfeeling, uncaring, or malicious monster.

Choice is yours. Knew and didn't tell, didn't know, or doesn't exist. There are only three possible choices. Pick yours with care.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12852 - 10/10/05 02:57 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Whatever proof that there is no God you show to a true believer can be seen by them as a 'test of faith'.
Whatever proof you show to a true atheist that there is a God (Like dying and going to heaven) can be seen by them as an experiment being performed on them in a virtual reality world.

What should we do?!

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#12853 - 10/10/05 03:55 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
There is no "proof" of God. There is no "disproof" of God. At least not in scientific terms. It's all philosophy - which might be amusing, but it isn't science.

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#12854 - 10/10/05 07:31 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
DA Morgan

Blacknad creating fantasy from fiction yet again wrote:
"If an entity created this universe, then necessarily that entity would sit outside the realm of our direct experience."

So Moses was a liar? Along with every other saint from Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology. Wow you really are on your own wavelength. You just toss it all to the wind and write whatever nonsense you think will sound good at the moment.


REP: Okay you?re right ? this doesn?t hold up.
But Christian theology states that God is distinct and separate from his creation. Therefore, unless God chooses to enter that creation then we will have no direct experience of him.

So yes, Moses would be a liar unless God chose to interact with his creation.


Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12855 - 10/10/05 07:38 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
The FallibleFiend

It's all philosophy - which might be amusing, but it isn't science.

You are right and this site is not the place for it. I will stay away from posting on the subject as long as people stop posting things like this in the public domain -

[DA Morgan.
Use this to kick the cr.p of our your local religious nut-case. Oh yeah, they aren't rational beings, so perhaps you shouldn't try. They are the same people that used to burn witches and heretics.]

I have given an undertaking that I will not start any religiously based threads (such as God and the big bang), and I will not - this is only annoying people.

I honestly came here for the science and not to pick a fight.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12856 - 10/10/05 08:45 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
blacknad, I'm not attempting to tell you what you can and can't post on the site. I'm not the topic police. Not for you and not for anyone else with whom I disagree.

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#12857 - 10/10/05 11:49 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
smile TY - but I'm gonna get a kickin' from the moderators sooner or later.

Blacknad.

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#12858 - 10/11/05 12:20 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
I know this will be a wasted effort before I start, but anyway?..

The religious buffs are going back to creation again! How about science and human kind? I think there are some that disagree with evolution as projected with out any religious motives. How about man created by a ?superior? being.

He might do the following:

Make the blood bright red so he will know he is bleeding.
Make him with pain sensors so he will learn what hurts and avoid it.
Make his waste brown and smell bad so he will know not to eat it.
Make him to sleep and recover his energy lest he burn himself out.
Make him to fear the unknown so he will not do dangerous things.
Make his taste able to discern what is good to eat and not good to eat.
Make him dependant on women so he will protect his family.
Make him with a cushion of hair on his head to soften blows.
Make his brain encased in bone so it will be protected.
Make him with an opposing thumb so he can grasp food and objects.
Make him stand upright so he can run swiftly and escape danger.
Make him with two eyes so he has depth perception.

Make him to think with his brain and not his loins.. Woops forgot it.

I do not argue for creation of anything but evolution does not explain the color of our blood or of our feces and that is just for starters.
Jim Wood

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#12859 - 10/11/05 01:32 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
TheFallibleFriend,
'There is no "proof" of God. There is no "disproof" of God. At least not in scientific terms. It's all philosophy - which might be amusing, but it isn't science.'
I agree. But I wanted to ask you something; have you ever heard a scientist say, "We will never know till we die." or "the answer lies with God."
Basically, have you ever experienced a scientist implying that ANYTHING was out of the realm of science and that there is a God who will provide the answer to any unanswered questions after death? If so, this is a very important issue because scientists who think like that aren't doing their job properly.

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#12860 - 10/11/05 01:54 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Rob said:
----
I agree. But I wanted to ask you something; have you ever heard a scientist say, "We will never know till we die." or "the answer lies with God."
Basically, have you ever experienced a scientist implying that ANYTHING was out of the realm of science and that there is a God who will provide the answer to any unanswered questions after death? If so, this is a very important issue because scientists who think like that aren't doing their job properly.
---

I'm not sure that's true. A scientist can have two sets of opinions - one that is derived from science and the other that is derived from his religion. Take Dr. Ken Miller who is among the strongest debaters for evolution and against creationism and intelligent design.

He is a theist evolutionist. He believes in God. He believes in evolution. ( http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/ )

That evolution is true is his scientific opinion. That God did it is his religious opinion.

Not every action of a scientist has to reflect science any more than every action of a teacher has to reflect teaching or every action of a lawyer has to reflect the law.

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#12861 - 10/11/05 04:13 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
my point was; theists are less motivated to deceipher the mysteries of the universe because they believe that they will ultimately gain this knowledge when they die. I know this from personal experience because i was once a theist.

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#12862 - 10/11/05 05:19 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Rob wrote:
"my point was; theists are less motivated to deceipher the mysteries of the universe because they believe that they will ultimately gain this knowledge when they die. I know this from personal experience because i was once a theist."


That may be true for many theists. I'm not sure it's true for all theists. I also was once a theist (raised a Baptist). I was a strong believer till I was about 15 or so. But I was interested in finding out long before that. I knew I wanted to be a scientist as early as 5 and have never waivered in that aspiration.

There was a part I read in the bible. I don't recall the passage. I can't say it gave impetus to my interests, but it did inspire them. It was something about how we should go out and try to understand the world the Lord created. I'm sure that many practicing scientists have been similarly inspired.

On average, though, it could be that religion closes more minds than it opens. I'm not sure.

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#12863 - 10/11/05 06:20 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
I am a theist and spend a lot of my time thinking and reading about scientific issues. I am desperate to know the answers.

And as for religion closing more minds than it opens - well, closed minded people are found all over, and religion has more than its fair share - can't deny it. But UK organisation 'Christians in Science' boasts more that 1500 members, and these are people working in real science - not creationists or ignorant evolution bashers.

And you must remember that the discipline of science grew up in monotheistic cultures only, where there was a belief that because of God, the universe must be ordered and therefore examinable.

-------------------------------------------------

'In the beginning were created only germs or causes of the forms of life which were afterwards to be developed in gradual course' - St. Augustine 400 AD.

-------------------------------------------------

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12864 - 10/12/05 02:41 AM Re: Proof that God did not create life
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"I am a theist and spend a lot of my time thinking and reading about scientific issues. I am desperate to know the answers."

Then try getting a serious education. What you've demonstrated so far is an abiding desire to bury your head in the sand.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12865 - 10/12/05 07:57 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
DA Morgan,

'Then try getting a serious education.'

REP: As you can probably figure out from my past, I was never in a position where a serious education was a possibility. But I have spent time educating myself. And you are misled when you talk about my inability to apply Boolean logic to my thinking. I have studied analytical philosophy at college and have read widely on the subject.

It is of no use to descend to insult and sarcasm because you disagree with my conclusions.

You have demonstrated an inability to think more widely, and follow through some of my arguments to their conclusion.

I feel you are also bound within a method of thinking that prevents you from stepping outside of the narrow confines of this present paradigm.

An example - if five hundred years ago you had talked about some of the seemingly contradictory properties of matter that we know of today, you would have been dismissed, because tat that time, thinking was bound within an 'is - or' paradigm. But in fact quantum theory sometimes requires an 'is - and' approach to processing the facts.

So their thinking was at fault. It is clear to me that in some of your arguments, that you are demonstrating an equally black and white thought process.

You are a slave to your logic, and cannot open up your mind to recognise that there may be more variables in the discussion than you recognise, with your simple 'yes or no' or 'there are only three choices - pick one'.

Unfortunately for you, you are surrounded by others who think in the same terms, and therefore you are constantly reinforcing each other's method of thinking - which is a fine way to think about science, but is completely unable to - A. think that there may be anything outside of the physical processes we witness, and B. have any meaningful thought about it.

A God that allows suffering may well be subject to your Boolean logic, but your mistake is in thinking that you are in possession of all of the possible sets.

'Then try getting a serious education.'

This comment demonstrates an intellectual snobbery that is astonishing, but sadly far too prevalent.

You have also shown that you are riddled with misconceptions, misinterpretations and myth regarding what serious Christianity says about itself, and you do nothing to admit when you are mistaken, either to me or probably yourself. You just move on to the next supposed point of contention in an ever increasing circle. The minutia will allow you to debate it indefinitely.

Example - In 'Adam, Eve and Me' you accused me of believing in a God who forced two bears to rip children apart. I demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that this was not the case. You didn't even acknowledge the fact but moved straight on.

And you seem incapable of grasping the implication: You're thinking is clouded by half-truths and myth, and is emotionally driven by your hatred of all things religious.

Fair enough, it's your prerogative.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12866 - 10/12/05 08:23 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"It is of no use to descend to insult and sarcasm because you disagree with my conclusions."

Because I disagree with your conclusion? Of course not. I disagree with many people I respect. They demonstrate the ability to think logically and deeply.

Perhaps due to your background you think that you think ... but I think otherwise. Most of your postings remind me of a famous quotation:

"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."

If you demonstrated the ability to comprehend an issue at, excuse me for this statement, an adult level, I would respect your conclusion. I see only evidence of someone recoiling from a horror and stopping too soon just because where they are is better than where they were.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12867 - 10/12/05 11:54 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
'In the beginning were created only germs or causes of the forms of life which were afterwards to be developed in gradual course' - St. Augustine 400 AD.


Its interesting that Blacknad reminded me of St Augustines, scientific phraseology.
Augustine almost got it right. Of course he did'nt know about Eukaryotes, back in those days.
Matter of fact had he be born a couple of hundred years later, the rising Catholic church would have clamped down upon such blasphemy.
Eukaryotes of course are single cells that have been around for hundreds of millions of years.
Being single cells they are not capable of doing anything else other than living and dying.
They had no control over their enviroment, no movement of any kind. (A single cell means no flagella to move with) They were a product of their enviroment, though they could not sense it.
They were so small and minute that they were pushed and pulled by minute atomic forces, exactly like Brownian motion. Except that they went one better, they were attracted or repelled by their surface molecules.
The particular surface molecular key that fitted another chemical molecule, enabled both to stay together. Being 3d, molecular clumping took things up to a new level. Prehaps one Eukaryote and its 'key' could now attract a food key.
The attractive power are surface molecules...exactly like the hairs on present day Geckos feet. Geckos final hairs are so small that they cannot be seen, unless you use an Electron microscope.
Go to your local pet shop and marvel at them running upside down on glass or other materials.
No vacuum, no sticky, just Van de Waals atomic forces. I should know, I keep 4 of them. They often sleep upside down on the ceiling above a light bulb if they need a little extra warmth.

But back to Eukaryotes, their molecular chemical clumping gave them freedom. Freedom to evolve, .....Evolution. Colonys that became the first multicellular creatures, that first evolved over 600 million years ago. We now call them Choanoflagellates, they packaged up their DNA, lived multiplied and died. Evolving ever upwards getting ever more complicated. Ain't nature wonderful, no God intervened, just molecular nature, in the beginning that is.
Have you ever wondered as to why when you go up the family tree of evolution there are less and less NEW species? By the way, single celled Eukaryotes vastly outnumber all other forms of multicellular life in terms of numbers and species on the Earth today.
Isnt nature amazing, it took trial and error and many millions of years to put a mouth bang in the middle of a group of cells, more millions to place a light sensitive cell within a group, and many more millions of years to develop a lens for that cell. Trial and error, trial and error, loads of time to develop and keep those good evolutionary innovations. Of course I know that others would say God would have done it, and got it right straight away, in 7 days I have heard, or was it 4000 years according to Bishop Usher?
I just dont believe in fairy tales now I have grown up. And I hope you dont either.
Thats all for now.
_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#12868 - 10/13/05 08:50 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Of course I know that others would say God would have done it, and got it right straight away, in 7 days I have heard, or was it 4000 years according to Bishop Usher?


I disagree with them just as much as you do.

Regards,

Blacknad

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#12869 - 10/13/05 09:18 PM Re: Proof that God did not create life
Garry Denke Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Plano, Texas, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Kremer:
Of course I know that others would say God would have done it, and got it right straight away, in 7 days I have heard, or was it 4000 years according to Bishop Usher?
Quote:
Originally posted by Blacknad:
I disagree with them just as much as you do.
Actually it was 6 days, rested on the 7th day; and James Ussher dated creation 4004 BC, not 4000 years.
Hell, I'm just glad it's almost Sundown, this Yom Kippur diet isn't any fun.
Perhaps the 'Hot Soup' diet is better?

Peace \/

Garry 'Jesus Freak' Denke
http://www.garrydenke.com
_________________________
I like rocks.

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