Proof that God did not create life

Posted by: DA Morgan

Proof that God did not create life - 08/17/05 09:16 AM

Source:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050814170410.htm

If this work holds up it will be one of the most important and fundamental pieces of research in our life times.

It will prove, conclusively, that our DNA was created by purely natural processes and not by any intelligent or sentient being.

Use this to kick the cr.p of our your local religious nut-case. Oh yeah, they aren't rational beings, so perhaps you shouldn't try. They are the same people that used to burn witches and heretics.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/17/05 09:49 AM

Who said God exists?
IT is all due to some probabilistic events happening at regular interval using some complex transactional logic.
Something got created out of it and it was us(some say it was God and goodness...)
There are inherent limitations to the desired accuracy of scientific reasoning.There are many questions which it needs to answer before it can even claim to give HOPE as given by God.
Atleast religion gives me a goal !! :-))
Dont get surprised by the ordinaryness of creation.It was always meant to be understood by all.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/17/05 10:32 AM

It is not at all a useful discussion point.
All the discussion should be limited to Science.
And before discussing any such concept we must arrive at a common understanding of concept called God. God means different things to different people.
Which defintion are you fighting against?
The creator is not needed in some religions.
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/17/05 06:23 PM

That's a lovely theory. Kinda gives you one of those moments where you slap your forehead and ask, "why didn't I think of that?"
One has to admit that it's pretty highly speculative stuff. Like much of evolutionary theory, there is still a lot of room for creationist losers to thrash away at it. Unfortunately, in a historical science, I fear that will always be the case.
Still, this idea explains the redundancy problem better than anything else I've ever seen. Occam is the evolutionary biologist's best friend.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/17/05 06:56 PM

Certainly speculative.

But if the math holds up ... then it deserves a Nobel Prize. It is, in its own field, as brilliant a bit of work as Einstein's in his field of endeavour.
Posted by: Mike Kremer

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 12:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Source:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050814170410.htm

If this work holds up it will be one of the most important and fundamental pieces of research in our life times.

It will prove, conclusively, that our DNA was created by purely natural processes and not by any intelligent or sentient being.

A wonderful find Daniel, a prediction that becomes more likely with every month that passes.
I'm so absolutely positive that DNA was created by a natural process, that I offer these additional proofs.
Preamble:
A hardy microbe "Halobacterium" that only lives in hot water that is 10X more salty than Sea water
It has been found to be able to completely repair itself and live again, after it has been mechanically broken, or bombarded with Radiation.
"We have completely fragmented their DNA. I mean we have COMPLETELY destroyed it by bombarding it with [radiation]. And they can reassemble their entire chromosome and put it back into working order within several hours," says Adrienne Kish, member of the research group studying the Halobacterium at the University of Maryland.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/10sep_radmicrobe.htm?list946288

And again, another Bacterium that lives inside a Volcanoe in near boiling water.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/176589.stm

And yet another early evolved Halobacterium that contains a third of its Genes that are novel, and presumably allows these extremophiles to live as they do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/953356.stm

Religious nut-case's have no business in talking in a Science Forum, anyway,(apart from reading and learning)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 03:58 AM

I'm so absolutely positive that DNA was created by a natural process, that I offer these additional proofs.
REP: Who said it was created by some unnatural process?
=======================================
Preamble:
A hardy microbe "Halobacterium" that only lives in hot water that is 10X more salty than Sea water
It has been found to be able to completely repair itself and live again, after it has been mechanically broken, or bombarded with Radiation.
"We have completely fragmented their DNA. I mean we have COMPLETELY destroyed it by bombarding it with [radiation]. And they can reassemble their entire chromosome and put it back into working order within several hours," says Adrienne Kish, member of the research group studying the Halobacterium at the University of Maryland.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/10sep_radmicrobe.htm?list946288
REP: What does it prove? It proves that it can reassemble. It proves that creation process doesnt try to outsmart the own created laws.
If you dig deep enough you will always find cause and effect.That makes the unkown event ordinary but it will pose new questions...
This is called evolution of awareness.
What is known is almost always followed by another puzzle. A more interesting question will be to ask "When will we be able to understand everything?"
Disintegrated Life(DNA) as per your assumption does not belong to the field defined as Biology.
The whole Biology was created on the defintion of Life.
I would like to know the complete defintion of Life.
==============================
And again, another Bacterium that lives inside a Volcanoe in near boiling water.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/176589.stm
And yet another early evolved Halobacterium that contains a third of its Genes that are novel, and presumably allows these extremophiles to live as they do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/953356.stm
REP: The definition of life allows you to get surprised.
======================================
Religious nut-case's have no business in talking in a Science Forum, anyway,(apart from reading and learning)
REP: I am also religious but dont expect everyone to hold beliefs similar to mine.Ideally no one else should try to disporve the belief without becoming expert in Religions.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 11:14 AM

dvk ... there is a difference between religious and religous nut case. Nut case indicates someone incapable of reconsidering a belief based upon new information. If you can rationalize new information and retain a belief system then you are not a rational being. If you can take in new information, and change your beliefs to comply with reality ... then you are not a nut. Only you and everyone that interacts with you can form an opinion on this.

The point of my post is that there are many possibilities for how life formed. We appear to have just excluded design by a divine sentient entity based on a very simple fact. That fact being that a divine sentient entity ... does not make mistakes and then correct them. Well except in the case of Noah. Damn there I go again ... pointing out how impossible it is for something to be all knowing and stil ake a mistake. At least the Judeo-Christian god is a loving god ... well except for that nasty little incident where he killed everyone on the planet except one family and that incident where he killed every first born son in an entire country, and that one little indicent where he .... You get the idea.

Well back to the topic .. science. The research, if confirmed ... provides proof positive that life has a purely natural explanation and requires nothing more: Nothing special.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 12:00 PM

What do you consider as special?
Think and answer.
All the religious stories do not fall into the domain of reality as perceived by us.
Those who practice it admit that they are talking about something which is not part of our domain of understanding(which is Science).
We all know that neither the Science , nor the religion knows how to express the reality in its completeness.
Both knew some part of it.
They both celebrate what they can explain.
They both forget that inevitabily there will be something more to acheive.
Both must grow within their own domains.
The apparent contradiction is limited to limited understanding of Sceince and Religion.
The day when we will discover the final truth we will realize that we were both saying the same thing but using different languages.
Religious concepts must not be taken literally.
In most cases it can have more than one meaning.
And fianlly there is no need to give excuses to start a fight.
In the next reply I hope to get a good defintion of life.
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dkv:

Religious concepts must not be taken literally.
In most cases it can have more than one meaning.
dkv makes an important point here - religious messages are usually intended to be understood as metaphor.
But dkv, if you lived in the US you would see that there are a great many people who do try to understand Christian scripture literally. They really do believe in the literal "truth" of the Bible. It's a dangerous and growing movement in our country. "President" Bush himself is an ardent believer in Biblical truth. It's very frightening for those of us who live next door to these people.

Quote:
Originally posted by dkv:

In the next reply I hope to get a good defintion of life.
Unfortunately, there isn't a good definition of life. Biologists - those who study life - don't agree about what should be considered "alive". There are some generally recognized characteristics shared by all living things: Homeostasis, Response to environment, Growth and development, Reproduction (and many biologists would include other features as well). However, even in the most strictly defined sense, there are always a lot of examples of things that fall into gray areas. Many biologists believe that life can't be treated as a black-and-white phenomenon.
Posted by: Count Iblis II

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by finchbeak:
That's a lovely theory. Kinda gives you one of those moments where you slap your forehead and ask, "why didn't I think of that?"
One has to admit that it's pretty highly speculative stuff. Like much of evolutionary theory, there is still a lot of room for creationist losers to thrash away at it. Unfortunately, in a historical science, I fear that will always be the case.
Still, this idea explains the redundancy problem better than anything else I've ever seen. Occam is the evolutionary biologist's best friend.
Creationists don't accept Occam. Ultimately they'll say that God created the earth 5000 years ago in the state science believes it was in at that time (i.e. including all the fossils of dinosaurs and all the evidence for evolution etc.).


The best way to attack creationism is not by trying to find more evidence for evolution, but rather by making their ''theory'' ridiculous. You have to defeat them at their own game. Thing is that God didn't need to create the earth 5000 years ago, he could have done that ten minutes ago. Here you assume that the universe was created in the exact state it was in ten minutes ago.


There is no way to scientifically distinguish between the ten minutes old earth theory, the 5000 years old earth theory and evolution.
But there are a lot of theological arguments in favor of the ten minutes old theory.


A ten minutes old Earth implies that our memories of events that we remember happened more than ten minutes ago are false memories. God created us with these memories. This means that 9/11, WWII Hiroshima etc. never really happened. This is plausible (if you accept that creation is possible at all) because God would never have allowed for such horrible events.
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 08:10 PM

Interesting approach, Iblis.
What theological arguments favor the 10-minute theory? I can't imagine any.
On the other hand, I can imagine a biblical literalist's response: "the Bible says 5000 (actually, I think they usually say 6000) years ago, and because the bible is the inerrant word of God, it must be true." Of course this response is not a reasonable argument, but it's the one they use, and it works equally well (which is to say not at all, except in the minds of the literalists) against the 10-minute theory.
In other words, I'm not sure this argument would really be effective against confirmed creationists. I think it may be more effective to dissect their debating strategies and to expose them as poor critical thinkers.
Posted by: Count Iblis II

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 09:48 PM

I have to admit, don't know too much about theology smile

I heard about the ''ten minutes old earth theory'' from a astronomer. It exposes the flaws of creationist reasoning to non scientists very well.

Perhaps scientists should also take aim at the Bible too. Isn't teaching religion to children indoctrination? Children are told that Jesus rose from the death without being told that there isn't a shred of evidence that this really happened. If a teacher teaches similar nonsense about any another subject he would be fired and possibly prosecuted for the harm done by having taught nonsense.
Posted by: Mike Kremer

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/18/05 11:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dkv:
Reply by Mike Kremer "I'm so absolutely positive that DNA was created by a natural process, that I offer these additional proofs".
REP:by dkv: Who said it was created by some unnatural process?
Reply by Mike Kremer "It seems that you do agree that DNA was created by NATURAL processes"

And also you would like to see a 'good definition of life'

Thats not so easy to define. There are many different types of life.
There is 'simple life, its almost on a molecular level. Its life that has the smallest amount of DNA, and still be able to survive. That type of life we call:-A Virus.
Unfortunately it cannot survive without a living protein...supplied by a human or animal.
Neither can simple life think!
And yet it does have the ability to seek out a warm bodied protein host. Simple life has the ability to seek out sunshine, like algae. Or seek darkness, Co2 and Sulphur....like Oxygen hating extremophiles. Or like another type of life that lives within the salty metallic waters of hot deep sea vents. It IS a type of THINKING based upon the molecular affinity of different chemical surfaces that interact with each other.
What I am saying is that the very simplest early types of life came into being without the presence or need of a God.
Hot, salty, metallic liquids and gases, constructed themselves into simple replicating nano bacteria (for want of a better definition)
Different nano bacteria, or viruses, developed differently within different conditions, right here on Earth.

So what does all life have in common?
Answer. ALL LIFE IS SELF REPLICATING, provided it has the chemicals (nutrients) to enable it to survive!

(Its strange that IF life has JUST the ability to replicate, it would ultimately destroy itself, rather like a disease we call cancer)

American Scientists have developed Nano-Robots a self-replicating process in which devices whose diameters are of atomic scale, on the order of nanometers, able to create copies of themselves. (A nanometer is 10-9 meter or a millionth of a millimeter) Its function is to construct at least one copy of itself during its operational life.
One example might be an artificial anti-body?

von Neumann, was the name of the man that first proposed the feasability of making a self replicating machines.
http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/vonNeumann.html

A study that has now been taken up by NASA for
use upon the Moon
http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepNASA.html

Are Man made replicating bodies, the same as life?
It might just depend upon who is doing the looking
The fact that they would be many millions of times bigger than natural Viruses, would arouse an Aliens suspicions. Early man made replicating bodies, might not be able to protect themselves from any adverse conditions, like lack of chemicals (materials) excessive heat or drought. But that could be overcome...eventually.
By just going back, and copying the inter molecular atomic surface forces, that I am sure governed the beginings of early life upon this Earth, and elswhere.

Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/19/05 11:21 AM

dvk: Special = Intentional intervention by an anthropomorphic sentient entity.
Posted by: esin

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/19/05 04:40 PM

Exciting, indeed. Affirmation of that which we have considered to be intuitive is gratifying.

A most important part of the puzzle, a defining piece, yet, herein, quixote in title, at least, one wonders as to the bent,,,, were we bored ~regards dna .
Posted by: esin

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/19/05 04:43 PM

hmmm, the 'dna .' was unintended,,, something extra last nights seamonkey build~
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/19/05 10:50 PM

Man, who spiked esin's punch?
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/20/05 12:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Count Iblis II:
Perhaps scientists should also take aim at the Bible too. Isn't teaching religion to children indoctrination? Children are told that Jesus rose from the death without being told that there isn't a shred of evidence that this really happened. If a teacher teaches similar nonsense about any another subject he would be fired and possibly prosecuted for the harm done by having taught nonsense.
I agree that this kind of teaching is indoctrination. And I agree that it does violence to young minds. In my opinion, Biblical Literalism is a horrendous theology.

I don't think the same thing can be said about all forms of Christianity or for the bible itself. Indeed, if one simply understands that the bible is a collection of literature, metaphorical writings that have been handed down through many generations and translations, which is undoubtedly true, then it's not hard to understand why the stories there are so compelling to so many. I personally am not terribly interested in very much of it (although I will admit that I think Jesus's sermon on the mount is pretty cool stuff). But then I also am not terribly interested in, say, the writings of John Milton. However, I know that there are many people who find Milton to be profound poetry. I conclude that there must be something there that I just don't get and I'm quite content with not getting it. I'm happy to let others feel a sense of wonder when they read Milton, just as I feel awe when I look closely at the veins in a leaf. If people feel captivated by biblical stories and if they find deep meaning in them, then I see no reason to insist that it's empty just because I don't get it. Indeed, maybe the very fact that I don't get it disqualifies me from commenting intelligently on the bible, just as those who misunderstand or misrepresent Darwinian theory are utterly unqualified to make intelligent comments about evolution. So I feel that I'm in no position to attack the bible.

When it comes to pedagogy, though, I am very much in my element and I can state with conviction that it is deeply harmful to simply command children to believe something, especially when no logical reason is given for the belief (and no, "because the bible tells me so" is not a valid logical reason). Thus, I am absolutely opposed to faith, when "faith" is taken to mean "belief despite evidence to the contrary." I believe that faith is logically indefensible and should have no part in a rational person's psyche.

I would (and do) attack faith. But I have no problem with the bible per se.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/20/05 01:01 AM

finchbeak:

Get real. The differences between one form of theology and another is nothing but a nuance. We are talking about a brain washing practice used to control children's behavior and thinking to serve a self-annointed elite class.

Apply even the most basic of Boolean reasoning and the entire Judeo-Christian-Islamic belief system falls apart. Here's the Christian test as most here are likely Christian by background. Equally simple tests can be applied to any other belief system.

Matt.26:53
"My God, My God, why hath thou forsaken me"

The trinity as three aspects of the same being:
Is it even remotely conceivable that a part of a single entity would question itself?

The trinity as three independent entities:
Is it even remotely conceivable that a true believer would question the wisdom of the creator of the entire freaking universe?

You have to be brain-dead to not see the logical inconsistency in a document that is supposedly perfect and divinely inspired.

For anyone of either Jewish or Christian belief ... please ... in your spare time ... justify Genesis 19 5-8. I'd like to hear a rationalization of why it is "good" to give one's virgin daughters to a mob to be raped to spare the life of a stranger.

Why any woman would willingly subscribe to a morality based upon these belief systems is beyond my wildest imagination: And I have a very wild imagination.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/20/05 05:04 AM

I'll match your imagination and raise you three...
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/20/05 02:35 PM

I agree that it's easy to find gross inconsistencies and cruelty and outright stupid philosophy contained in the bible (and other judeo-christian-islamic stories). There is a whole lot of crap (and worse) there. You're quite right to point out Genesis 19 as an example. Point taken.

I think it's important to remember that the bible is nothing more than a collection of stories, written by many authors and translated many times over. I would compare it to the body of literature we call Norse mythology. Those gods were nasty bastards and their heroes (e.g. Beowulf) were very contradictory, being simultaneously violent and gentle, loving and hateful, disgusting and beautiful. In short, they were metaphors for humanity in general and the gods can be seen as representing the entirety of nature. Today, virtually nobody believes these stories literally although many people find them captivating and instructive.

I also agree that it's impossible to logically consider biblical stories as both literally perfect and divinely inspired. Indeed, that was my point: the problem lies more in the interpretation than in the stories themselves. The trinity is actually an interesting example. So long as you don't try to understand it literally (and it is absurd to believe 1=3), there is an interesting metaphor there. For example, my wife and son and I can be seen as being both one and three at the same time. At a more general level, I tend to see the human situation as being one where there is both a conflict and a balance between individuals and the communities they comprise. There is a very interesting dynamic between individual needs and community needs; I see the trinity as a metaphor that illustrates the inherent dissonance and harmony in that situation. In no way do I believe in the trinity as literal truth, but it is an interesting story and an interesting theme permeating much of the biblical collection. Fiction and mythology, even when violent and ugly, have valid roles in human society. That doesn't mean every sentence should apply to all of us all of the time (or to any of us at any time, as you rightly point out).

To go back to the example of Genesis 19, let me ask this. What if we understand "God" to be a metaphor for the natural universe, instead of as a sentient being? Does nature behave violently, capriciously, and unjustly sometimes? Yes. Is it simultaneously breathtakingly beautiful? I think so. Does nature condemn innocents to horrible fates and allow for greed, cowardice, and corruption to gain an upper hand? Sometimes. Do greed and corruption always win? No. The natural universe provides both spectacular injustice and sublime beauty, often at the same time. I absolutely do NOT believe in any literal interpretation of "God" as a living, loving, sentient being; but I do think that it's interesting to tell stories about how we experience nature and the awe most people feel in its presence. Indeed, as a scientist and an educator, that's my job.

Thus, it is literal interpretation that I find most troubling. Not only do literalists fail to see the point in a society's stories, but they often act violently and stupidly because of that failure. The stories themselves, while they may contain horrendous episodes, are not to blame.
Posted by: Rogue Physicist

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/20/05 03:31 PM

Quote:
It will prove, conclusively, that our DNA was created by purely natural processes and not by any intelligent or sentient being.
What nonsense.
You can't have probabilities at all without hidden laws and unknown but predictable causes.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/21/05 06:10 PM

finchbeak ... you wrote:
"I think it's important to remember that the bible is nothing more than a collection of stories,"

But if you accept as true what you wrote ... and I've no reason to believe you a hypocrite. Then they have the same moral authority as any other work of fiction. No more ... and no less.

So why not tell everyone to pay 10% of their earnings to support those that preach the gospel of Harry Potter. Better miracles and far better written.
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/22/05 12:59 AM

I quite agree with you, DA. I don't think the bible does have any special moral authority. (And I confess that Weasly is my king.)
Like I said, the problem is in the interpretation. Your example of tithing is an excellent illustration of foolish and corrupt people using the bible inappropriately. Please understand, in no way do I support taking the bible as anything more than a remarkably old and vivid piece of literature. Like all works of fiction, it must be understood as metaphor; anybody who tries to take it literally is behaving like an idiot.
What I have been trying to say is that I think people should be held accountable for their own idiocy, rather than laying blame on a book. I believe modern evangelical Christianity to be a disturbing and dangerous movement, and very few things anger me more than the people who are trying - and often succeeding - in foisting their twisted belief system on human society as a whole. In fact, I propose that nothing threatens American society (for I have trouble speaking for the rest of the world) more than these fundamentalist charlatans.
DA, don't you agree that the people, not the book, should be castigated?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/22/05 03:34 AM

Agree.The problem is not with the religion but with those who practice it.
The religion came into existence when we were confined to our geographical locations and time periods. The fundamental laws remain the same however there is a need to rewrite some part of it to make it more contemporary.Ofcourse the writer should an expert in religions and should have extraordinary understanding of what happens in daily life today. The rewritten part should not negate what was achieved earlier but should compliment to the original text as a newly discovered understanding by the returned light.
Religion evolves very slowly( Sometimes it
de-evolves as well.) Religious evolution can match the newly accepted reality more readily if and only if the concept of God is accepted by someone who knows Science very well(as most part of what we have today has been gifted to us by science)
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/22/05 04:41 PM

"It will prove, conclusively, that our DNA was created by purely natural processes and not by any intelligent or sentient being."

Close. It might prove that a creator is not required. It won't prove there was no creator.

God is outside the realm of science, as are faeries and witchcraft.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/22/05 05:14 PM

Occam's Razor applies Mr. Fiend. If proven as fact that our DNA was originally based on a doublet that was later expanded to a triplet the only possibility for a creator is that the creator is flawed. And there is not a single religion on this planet willing to step up to the bar and take ownership of a flawed creator.

Even though any person with 1/2 a brain knows that the one they've been flogging for 2000 years is as flawed as those that promote him/her/it.
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/22/05 05:44 PM

Actually, I think many Buddhists and Hindus feel comfortable with the notion of a flawed creator.
Many other Buddhists (Zen in particular) have no use for a deity concept whatsoever. In fact, many religion scholars consider the roots of Buddhism to be an atheist philosophy, rather than a religion per se. Some branches of Buddhism, in particular those that are heavily influenced by Hinduism (like Tibetan Buddhism), have since embraced the idea of a divine creator. Other branches - those that are more influenced by the Chinese Taoism - have never done that.

Here's an excellent book. The World's Religions, by Huston Smith.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062508113/104-1659659-1651110?v=glance
As a non-religious person, I was very surprised to enjoy this book as much as I did. I still refer to it quite often.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/22/05 09:42 PM

"If proven as fact that our DNA was originally based on a doublet that was later expanded to a triplet the only possibility for a creator is that the creator is flawed."

Occam's razor applies in science. Theology or philosophy are outside the realm of science. Now my own view is that there is no God. I don't KNOW that there is no god, but I live my life as if there were no god of any kind and I really believe there is none exists. I acknowledge the possibility, though, that some kind of god exists. The christian-muslim, etc. conception, however, in addition to being repulsive, is utterly ridiculous. Christianity has about as much chance of being true as circles have of being squared.

I think the bible has some wisdom in it, some truth, and some beauty. It also has enough that is false, ugly, and stupid that I have to believe it's not inspired by any true god.

But these are all personal views. Science can't say anything about God. Maybe the "flaws" are only percieved on our part. Maybe the "flaws" are part of "The Plan." Of course I don't believe this. It's stupid to consider, imo. But science only deals with the physical and the how, not the metaphysical or the why. That I personally think that metaphysics is a useless cesspool is immaterial.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/23/05 10:42 PM

While I totally agree that science and theology are polar opposites one can use the scientific method to falsify theological or philosophical statements presented as statements of fact.

So, for example, while I can not falsify that there is an undetectable purple rhinoceros in the middle of the room ... I can falsify a claim that an object was created by a sentient entity that is perfect.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/24/05 03:56 AM

Special = Intentional intervention by an anthropomorphic sentient entity.
REP:Tomorrow when you will create the Universe will they not call you the God!!??
Go ahead and disprove it.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/24/05 02:39 PM

"I can falsify a claim that an object was created by a sentient entity that is perfect"

I'm not sure how one would go about doing that, if the entity supposedly used supernaturalism to do it.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/25/05 09:07 AM

Supernaturalism??
What is supernatual to us today may become natural tomorrow.
The process may not confine itself to one branch of knowledge.
It is possible.
Posted by: Johan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/25/05 09:37 AM

By dkv:
Quote:
In the next reply I hope to get a good defintion of life.
The definition of life is that it can die. Sorted.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/25/05 10:31 AM

dvk wrote:
"Tomorrow when you will create the Universe will they not call you the God!!??"

A rhetorical question asked '... by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing': To quote Shakespeare.

The FalliableFiend:
A entity that is perfect, by definition, can not make a mistake. This isn't rocket science ... just simple Boolean logic. Even thousands of years ago this was well known and was the origin of artists intentionally making a mistake in their work so as not to anger a god by challenging his perfection.

Johan:
You wrote the definition of life is that it can die. No doubt your carefully crafted analysis will now define death as the end of life. Thus giving the impression of intellect where there is, in fact, a vacuum.

The truth is that no one has ever, unambiguously, defined what life is and you are not first. Neither can you unambiguously define death.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/25/05 10:44 AM

But so can the universe.
And what is meant by death.
If we are subjected to classical understanding of reality then it doesnt make any sense to discuss the life and death.There is nothing called as Life and nothing is called Death.
The illusion of life gets created because we are programmed to care of ourselves.
What is so special about Life?
Why cant Life be allowed to be an attribute of a sufficiently complex computing Machine?
The probability has its own limitations.
Otherwise a type wirter would have been enough to reproduce Shakespear.Some people actually performed this experiment and no useful sentence was created (forget about understanding it)..
Posted by:

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/25/05 02:51 PM

Someone posted the question "what is truth"? The New York Times has truth, they tell you so; "All the news that's fit to print". In American schools it is generally taught that the American Revolution was fought in order to stop taxation by the British, and to end British "oppression". In Russia, however, the American Revolution is painted differently. There the young Russians are imparted with knowledge that the "Americans (to be)" fought with the British in order to keep slavery, while the British fought to end it.

Truth in a courtroom is what a judge and jury decide it is. Nothing else.
Truth can have bias, perspective, point-of-view, and vantage.
I am not talking about mathematics.

DKV,
If you use a computer to perform art, which is the artist: the user or the computer? To further complicate, what is "art"? lol
Sincerely
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/25/05 03:04 PM

"A entity that is perfect, by definition, can not make a mistake. This isn't rocket science ... just simple Boolean logic. Even thousands of years ago this was well known and was the origin of artists intentionally making a mistake in their work so as not to anger a god by challenging his perfection."

1) The definition of god doesn't necessarily include the notion of perfection.

2) What we percieve - and what we are capable of perceiving - might not be all there is. Just because we perceive that something is a mistake doesn't mean that God didn't plan it that way all along.

Science doesn't address god. Logic is used in science and in philosophy. Being logical is not the same thing as being scientific.
Posted by: j6p

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/25/05 03:23 PM

One definition of death could be "change". Personally, I look at death as energy changing from one form to another. It makes it easier, for me at least, to tolerate the passing of someone or something I hold dear.
Posted by: Lompta

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/26/05 01:30 AM

Science is a network that bends inward on itself. It does not ground in the real world, for there are infinite assumptions that must be made. There are axioms that we must assume are true to know anything. Science is most certainly not the one true thing. Anything involving the idea of a god is another network entirely, and a similar one, albeit one that grounds in different places, follows different rules. Perhaps the latter is more primitive, but both are structures that don't quite touch the ground. You can't say one will fall at any minute without casting a questioning glance at the other.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/26/05 06:06 AM

DKV,
If you use a computer to perform art, which is the artist: the user or the computer? To further complicate, what is "art"? lol
Sincerely
REP:Speaking of Art and Artists.. i have my own reservations.A singer can not be called a good singer if he does not sound melodious without the Instruments.And when he sings well using his accessories then obviously the credit should go to the Machine as well.Singing has become a coordinated effort of Man and Machine...And the person who coordiantes the performance is the Actual Singer.
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/26/05 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lompta:
Science is a network that bends inward on itself. It does not ground in the real world, for there are infinite assumptions that must be made. There are axioms that we must assume are true to know anything. Science is most certainly not the one true thing. Anything involving the idea of a god is another network entirely, and a similar one, albeit one that grounds in different places, follows different rules. Perhaps the latter is more primitive, but both are structures that don't quite touch the ground. You can't say one will fall at any minute without casting a questioning glance at the other.
I disagree with this. Strongly.
Science, by design, is rooted firmly to the ground. It depends entirely on the observation of actual, independently reproducible events. Any theory not so grounded is invalid. Scientists work hard to eliminate all necessary assumptions; that practice is known as using Occam's razor.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/26/05 09:00 PM

Falliable wrote:
"1) The definition of god doesn't necessarily include the notion of perfection."

It does in a Judeo-Christian-Islamic world. Don't believe me? Go to any priest, rabbi, minister, whatever you wish and ask them whether their god is perfect. Whether their god has ever made a mistake. Google for more responses. But you'll find this prey typical: www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=228

Your argument that what we perceive as a mistake may have been part of the plan is nonsense on its face. Maybe god put up Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed as false prophets to fool us too. Stick around another 2000 years to find out the laugh was on us. As good an argument as the invisible purple rhinoceros.

j6p:
"One definition of death could be "change"

So by your definition you are dead. Not much point in responding to you, eh? When does a bacteria die? How about a plant?

Lompta:
"Science ... It does not ground in the real world"

You could not be further from the truth. Don't paint something you don't understand with your personal ignorance. Next time you go to a doctor with an infection, and he offers you an antibiotic, be sure to refuse it and tell him science is not grounded in the real world. And stop using electricity and your computer. They too are obviously not grounded in the real world.
Posted by: j6p

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/26/05 10:08 PM

DA Morgan, I am very much alive but not all of me. I am changing. Some of my cells are dropping off aaaarrrrgggghhhhh dead dead dead noooooo.
Oh well there goes another one. And I'll betcha that darn dead cell changes too. Some of the molecular components will separate then the atoms will disengage and so on and so on.
Yep every thing changes.
I heard somewhere that as soon as we are born we begin our journey toward death. Hmmm, now where did I hear that. Oh that's right, I said it.
Gotta go my honey just put some dead stuff on the table - pasta. Mmmmm I likes pasta.
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/27/05 02:22 PM

j6p -
Death=change doesn't work well, in my opinion. Certainly, death is a subset of change, but it isn't equivalent with change.
Posted by: j6p

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/27/05 03:55 PM

finchbeak, I understand but we all do what we have to do in order to deal with it. Whether it be fantasy or reality doesn't matter.
As I said I look at death as change.
You have to admit though, we (humans) have invented some stranger ways to deal with death.
Posted by: Marc P

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/27/05 05:09 PM

I haven't read all pages of this post, but as some have stated, proving that development of DNA or the Big Bang for that matter was an "all natural" process in no way proves or disproves the existence of a sentient superior being many call "God".

The old science vs religion thing is fine if you're either in the 1500s or are talking about very right wing groups.

Science and religion can mix together very well, unless you're a fanatic... in either one of the two camps!

Marc P.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/28/05 06:48 PM

Marc P wrote:
"Science and religion can mix together very well"

Actually they can't unless you are brain-washed or brain-dead: They are polar opposites.

Science assumes we are on a search for truth. Religion claims to be the sole source of truth.

In science we seek Boolean proof through the scientific method. The temperature at which ice melts is the same for Jews, Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, animists, etc. The absolute proof that religion is a crock was stated most eloquently by Stephen Roberts:
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

And by our very own Uncle Al:
"Religion and science are orthogonal - they have
nothing in common and do not overlap in any way.
Religion is based upon faith and is destroyed by
empirical proof. Science is based upon empirical proof and is rendered inoperative by faith."

More than 1000 years ago:
"The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence."
-Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057)

And by the most important source of wisdom:
"That's the kind of God you people talk about, a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much
reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of Creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements?"
- Catch 22
Posted by: Marc P

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/29/05 03:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Marc P wrote:
"Science and religion can mix together very well"

Actually they can't unless you are brain-washed or brain-dead: They are polar opposites.

Science assumes we are on a search for truth. Religion claims to be the sole source of truth.
- Catch 22
Wow, I though such narrow mindedness was only on the religious side. Guess I was wrong. People who say religion and science don't mix know neither very well. At their core, both are a search for the truth, empirical truth or theological truth. The only catch 22 is in your head.

Tenants of the concept of oposition between science and religion are either very conservative or right wing religious extremists or, on the other side of the spectrum, atheists who's knowledge of religion doesn't go much past what they learnt at Mrs Smith's Sunday school classes.

Marc P.
Posted by: A Lurker

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/29/05 04:29 AM

Marc P reveals himself as a manipulative and an ignorant person typical of that of a creationist. I?m referring to the cut and paste job:

?Science assumes we are on a search for truth. Religion claims to be the sole source of truth.
- Catch 22?

This was not an accurate quote from Dan M?s posting.

And later in his post: ?on the other side of the spectrum, atheists who's knowledge of religion doesn't go much past what they learnt at Mrs Smith's Sunday school classes?

Marc P clearly shows that he has now clue of what science, or the scientific method is. And again, typical for creationists, slams atheists? as that would have anything to do with the discussion. Marc P has no notion of what being an atheist is all about.

Marc P ? learn about these things. You come across as silly to put it mildly.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/29/05 02:14 PM

1. The idea of "God" does not depend on what judeo-christians think about it.

2. "Your argument that what we perceive as a mistake may have been part of the plan is nonsense on its face."

It's an idiotic argument, but it's not nonsense. It's also something that can't be refuted with logic. Such examination is outside the purview of science.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/29/05 04:12 PM

MarkP wrote:
"At their core, both are a search for the truth"

Find me, in any religious book, the statement that the priests of that religion, those that founded it, and the books upon which they rely, do NOT contain the truth but rather that they are on a search for truth. Find me just a single example from any mainstream religion.

And as Lurker points out ... aren't you capable of accurately copying a quote?

Falliable:

"God" of course does not depend on Judeo-Christian theology. So all Jews and Christians are wrong. Good that solves part of the problem. Does "God" depend on Islamic thinking? Keep on naming 'em.

So you believe in a "God" that makes mistakes. Good. I like that. So which is it? Your "God" isn't perfect? Or your "God" intentionally makes mistakes to fool us into believing he/she/it doesn't really exist?
Posted by: Marc P

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/29/05 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by A Lurker:
Marc P reveals himself as a manipulative and an ignorant person typical of that of a creationist.

Marc P has no notion of what being an atheist is all about.

Marc P ? learn about these things. You come across as silly to put it mildly.
Glad we're sticking to the issues and the science here!

Marc P.
Posted by: Marc P

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/29/05 06:38 PM

O.K. enough personal attacks. Let's stick to the issue at hand.

I find the idea bewildering that this or that discovery in Science proves or disproves the existence of God. I've studied theology for over 6 years (liberal Catholic university) and nowhere in my studies did a single professor draw an opposition between the Bible or the creation stories of Genesis and what science has so far learnt. Those stories were written by writers who wanted to express their faith in how the world came to be. They used the common knowledge available to them at that time. Many creation stories of different religions or civilizations written at the same time as the Genesis stories use much of the same imagery and concepts. If the same creation stories were to be written today, they would simply incorperate the knowledge available to us today about the visible world (emperical truth) and affirm their faith by saying that somehow, all this came to be through the will of a creator or "God". (Of course, I am aware that my theological view is tainted by my catholic/chrisitan faith/studies but from my limited knowledge of other religions, I don't think it's all that incompatible with the basic judeo-christian view.)

To say that religion is crap or unintelligent because the way the Bible relates creation has proven to be false (universe created in a few days, etc.) is to have, in my view anyway, a rather narrow concept of the Bible and christian faith. What is crap (or not true) is actually the "science" if we can call it that or more precisely the common cosmological knowledge, which prevailed at the time the Bible was written (Genesis anyway around 700BC).

As a liberal catholic believer I have no difficulty distinguishing between the empirical data contained in the Bible which is simply not true (because it is based on 3000 year old science), and the theological truth that simply states that somehow, this universe came to be because God wanted it. That is why I stated that I see no opposition between science and religion or, more precisely, faith and spirituality.

For the record, I'm about as far from a "creationist" as you can get. Although my master's degree is in theology, I have studied math and science at the university level and still read up on scientific subjects as much as possible.

Marc P.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/29/05 08:29 PM

Marc P wrote:
"Glad we're sticking to the issues and the science here!"

WE are ... just apologize for misquoting and move on. What you just did was attempt to point the finger away from your own error. And you've been caught.

Marp P wrote:
"I find the idea bewildering that this or that discovery in Science proves or disproves the existence of God. I've studied theology for over 6 years (liberal Catholic university) and nowhere in my studies did a single professor draw an opposition between the Bible or the creation stories of Genesis and what science has so far learnt."

How many Hail Mary's do you have to say, after 6 years in college, using the non-word 'learnt'?

That the priest's don't wish to point out that they are wrong should not surprise you: That is not what they are paid to do. They are not paid to help you find truth. They are not paid to acknowledge failures and failings. Bet they haven't spent a lot of time talking about the Catholic church's support of Nazi Germany either. Or the fact that they officially approved a South American rodent as a fish before they, Oops, decided Catholics no longer needed to eat fish on Friday. Or the fact that nearly 1/3 of all pope's have died by assassination.

I do not mean here is disparage your religion. You are entitled to your belief and I have respect for people that are truly trying to be good people. But you can not take an objective look at the history of your faith and believe its teachings. Even the version of the 10 Commandments you hold dear is different from that the Jews have. And given that (A) the Jews got it first and (B) it was written in their language ... you ought to be asking yourself what motivated your church to reword them. And did they get God's written permission to do so? Inquiring minds want to know.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/30/05 03:42 AM

I know it all is dangerous.
And those who know it dont say that.
Whether it comes from Science or Religion it is bad.
Both are saying the same.
Both must upgrade their thought process.
The struggle is taking place because the religions evolve more slowly than science.
I have already discussed the reasons behind the existence of multiple faiths.
Some religions are able to map their thought process to the obeserved reality in a consistent way and some still believe in you-are-wrong.
Posted by: A Lurker

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/30/05 07:13 AM

Something happened when posting this. If it double posted, ignore one of the postings....

Marc P,
I?m glad to hear that you are not a creationist. Maybe I was a tad harsh too soon calling you manipulative and ignorant. Your post, the one I responded to, had some of the typical creationist attributes. I?m referring to 3 issues in that post:

1.
The incorrect quote from Dan M?s message. I have seen so many out of context, or ?convenient? miss-quoting by creationists that it?s not funny anymore.

2.
And this: ?People who say religion and science don't mix know neither very well?. I?m sorry Marc P, but they just DO NOT MIX.
You said: ?At their core, both are a search for the truth, empirical truth or theological truth.?
The reason that they don?t mix ? ever - is that the METHOD itself of the search of the truth is so fundamentally different. Anyone that don?t grasp that difference, I guess can believe that science and religion mix ? but no, they don?t. There may be scientists who are religious. But if they mix religion with their work, they are not adhering to scientific methods. There is no way around this ? they do not mix.

3.
And also; the comment of how little religious knowledge atheists have. Oh, please.
This is just plain dumb. Why would an atheist not take interest in religious matters? Then again, why would an atheist care about religious matters just as, and I?m guessing here, a Muslim may not give a hoot about Catholic knowledge?

In reply to my post you said:
?Glad we're sticking to the issues and the science here!?

You seem to be the one who want to argue the non-scientific issue whether science and religion mix ? from a scientific perspective they do not ? ever. But you are of course free to think so.
Posted by: Marc P

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/30/05 11:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Marc P wrote:
How many Hail Mary's do you have to say, after 6 years in college, using the non-word 'learnt'?

That the priest's don't wish to point out that they are wrong should not surprise you. They are not paid to help you find truth. They are not paid to acknowledge failures and failings. Bet they haven't spent a lot of time talking about the Catholic church's support of Nazi Germany either....

I do not mean here is disparage your religion. You are entitled to your belief and I have respect for people that are truly trying to be good people. But you can not take an objective look at the history of your faith and believe its teachings. Even the version of the 10 Commandments you hold dear is different from that the Jews have. And given that (A) the Jews got it first and (B) it was written in their language ... you ought to be asking yourself what motivated your church to reword them. And did they get God's written permission to do so? Inquiring minds want to know.
My problem with spelling comes from the fact that English is not my mother tongue, not from Hail Mary's.

And actually, yes, the professors (not that many of them were priests, a lot of lay people, women..., I did say "liberal" catholic university), talked extensively about the failings of the catholic church, all the ones you mentioned and many more you didn't. The church ain't perfect, it doesn't need to be for me to live my faith. I agree with liberal theologians that the church can at times be wrong in some of it's teachings. I believe in the core message of the Gospel and the wisdom of most of the teachings of the church, not all. I did say "liberal" catholic.

One of the great theologians and spirituel minds of the 20th century, M. Zundel even went as far as saying that certain parts of scripture do not reflect the mind / will of God, but rather the human limitations of the ones who wrote it. Contrary to what many believe, you can be think and have faith at the same time.

Some of my professors are the very scholars that have worked on the latest translation of the Bible and they have worked with Jewish scholars and you are wrong to say that the 10 Commandments contained in the Catholic version of the Bible is different from that of the Jewish Bible. They are the same. Certain books in the Catholic version of the Bible are not in the Jewish version but other than that, they are the same.

Marc P.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/30/05 11:42 AM

I believe in no god at all. I think I said that previously. If there were a god, it wouldn't have anything to do with my personal conception of it.
To quote you: "It's not rocket science."

Most people think that 1) logic is simple and 2) they're particularly good at it. Most of them are wrong on both counts.
Posted by: Marc P

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/30/05 11:53 AM

Sorry for misquoting, I wrote that message before going to bed, actually in bed... I won't do that anymore!

A Lurker, you said: "I?m sorry Marc P, but they just DO NOT MIX."

Well many many people think as you do. I've just dug up an article on this very subject in my stack of "The Sciences" magazines from a few years back. Interesting reading where you have both sides of the debate.

You said: " The reason that they don?t mix ? ever - is that the METHOD itself of the search of the truth is so fundamentally different.... There may be scientists who are religious. But if they mix religion with their work, they are not adhering to scientific methods."

I totally agree with you on the fundamental difference about the method. What I'm saying is not that you should incorporate religious beliefs into scientific data or that you should use the core method of religion, which is "revelation" and oppose it to the scientific method, which is systematic skepticism. What I'm saying is that you can be an intelligent human being (even very intelligent), even a scientist and still have faith. The concept that you have to be stupid to have faith (I'm not saying you said this, but the idea was included in someone else's posts as a quote) is usually based on a stereotypical and simplistic concept of blind mindless faith that I referred to as "Mrs Smith's Sunday school classes".


You said: "And also; the comment of how little religious knowledge atheists have. Oh, please. This is just plain dumb. Why would an atheist not take interest in religious matters?"

What I was referring to (maybe not very skillfully) was the impression I get that when certain people (atheists or otherwise) refer to faith or religion, they seem to convey the idea (in my mind anyway) that to have faith and to practice religion, you have to blindly and mindlessly believe, for example, that the world was created in 6 days just as it is written in the Bible. Although some people of faith do believe this and many more did in earlier centuries, a very small proportion of them still do today. The bible creation stories were never intended as an empirically correct account of what went on at the time of creation. They are simply faith affirmations (basically, God is the origin of everything that exists) using what common knowledge was available at the time the texts were written (700 BC). By saying this, I'm not denying my faith, I'm simply using my god-given intelligence to better understand it and there's nothing "un-christian" about that.

You said:
"In reply to my post you said:
?Glad we're sticking to the issues and the science here!?

I'm just surprised at the level of personal insults here. I'm not saying that I didn't fan the flame a bit (my two first posts were written with my mind half awake... won't do that anymore!), but I don't see how personal insults contribute to debating the issue at hand.

Marc P.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/30/05 05:09 PM

Marc P wrote:
"I get that when certain people (atheists or otherwise) refer to faith or religion, they seem to convey the idea (in my mind anyway) that to have faith and to practice religion, you have to blindly and mindlessly believe, for example, that the world was created in 6 days just as it is written in the Bible."

Not at all. But the minute you open it up to interpretation you are acknowledging that there are errors of fact. What scientific theory would stand if it were acknowledged to contain errors of fact?

Simply put ... if humans were "designed" then explain why human males have nipples?

Simly put ... if some sentient entity was helping our ancestors why didn't it bother to inform them about penicillin?

You just can't have it both ways.
Posted by: finchbeak

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/31/05 01:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Simply put ... if humans were "designed" then explain why human males have nipples?
A classic example. Gould wrote an article on this topic - and the related question of why females have clitorises - which he really wanted to title "Tits and Clits". His editors insisted that he change it, so he compromised with "Male Nipples and Clitoral Ripples".

An even better example: all terrestrial tetrapods are prone to choking. We have one hole (the pharynx) through which both food and air must pass before entering their separate tracts. It's vital that food must not enter the respiratory tract, and yet every time we swallow, we shove food right past the opening to it. That's a STUPID design. Yes, there is a flap of cartilage (the epiglottis) that closes the digestive tract off during those brief moments, but it doesn't work perfectly; people (and other terrestrial tetrapods) choke to death all the time. And anyway it wouldn't be necessary if only an intelligent design had been adopted from the outset. Insects have a much more intelligent design: numerous holes along the sides of their bodies (spiracles) for their respiratory system and a separate hole (the mouth) for their digestive system. There is no need for the two systems to intersect.
So why do we have this design flaw? Simply put, because our ancestors had it. We evolved from lancelet-like animals that used a "pharyngeal basket" for both digestion and respiration. We are stuck with a fundamental body plan that has the two systems in close proximity. Darwinian natural selection might get rid of this design if there were an alternative design to compete against it, but few such alternatives have happened to crop up.
Actually, there is one very instructive case where a group of mammals did happen upon an alternative body plan in which the digestive and respiratory systems have distinct, non-intersecting pathways. What's more, they have adopted a lifestyle that actually requires this separation, allowing them to catch food and eat it underwater without the danger of drowning. These are the cetaceans. Whales and dolphins can't breathe through their mouths because their mouth does not lead to their lungs. And, of course, they can't choke on food.
It's interesting to speculate about the relationship between the adaptation (blowholes separated from the digestive tract) and the aquatic lifestyle. Which encouraged which? Which came first? Even better is the fact that the early evolution of whales is exquisitely documented in the fossil record - one of the best, most complete, and most dramatic collections of transitional fossils we have.
A couple of excellent web sites:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gingeric/PDGwhales/Whales.htm
http://www.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Thewissen/whale_origins/index.html

Can you tell that I really get excited about this topic?
I simply love examples of stupid design in nature; they're so instructive. Even better is to find examples of stupid design where different groups of organisms use different adaptations to solve the same stupid problems imposed by their common evolutionary heritage.

Of course, the example I am most intimately familiar with, after recent back troubles: anybody who believes in intelligent design has obviously never endured the utterly pointless agony of lower back pain. Thanks a lot, great designer!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 08/31/05 07:44 AM

Talk about perfection and I have a long list.
But when someone told me that even the most perfect man made creation fails to sustain its beauty over time, I smiled at the Nature for sustaining the non-physical creation of Her's.
Perfectionist of physical reality call for unimaginable event to happen everytime and everywhere.
Sadly they fail to appreaciate the base desire of Mother Nature.Even there own theory is based upon Evolution which hardly cares for the survival stragies used by the then species.
Some call it stupidity if there are signs relating to nearest ancestor in chain but I call it a remider of my dearest and nearest brother.
And please give time to the Nature to improve and forget what needs to be forgotten.Thanks to her we no more lay eggs in the water.
Asking her to give you the PERFECT physical answer right now is like asking Her to populate the entire Universe with my dear friends now.
It doesnt work that way.
It takes time.
May be we will have two more hands tomorrow but only two legs.And then again you will complain.
Before you call someone stupid make sure that you are not.(it was just a joke)
:-))
Posted by: Andy

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 09/01/05 04:07 PM

Someone once said only a terrible engineer would run waste through a recreation area.

+2 cents(tounge:cheek)
Posted by: Lompta

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 09/02/05 12:58 AM

Actually, we are physically and mentally perfect. It's the only reason we exist. There is no real reason why we should exist at all. We have not found any organ that holds the soul. We have found how data is stored, but not why we live in the first place, not why anything doesn't simply cease to exist instantly. Only perfection could survive such an abyss of chaos. Anything that exists, therefore, as far as I can see, is perfect.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 09/02/05 04:53 AM

Not one expect those who enjoy making love will agree with you.
It was joke.
Yes indeed this is this overall grand reality of happiness for every species. There are good times and there are bad times but overall Life remains good.And thats why they are alive.
Some say it is a complete nonsense to search for happiness outside as it is the function of your internal emotions which can be generated using internal belief.Think positive they say but how much they follow who knows.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 09/02/05 05:35 AM

Lompta wrote:
"Actually, we are physically and mentally perfect. It's the only reason we exist."

In about 120 years look me up and describe to me in great detail your personal perfection.

If you truly believe what you wrote I would suggest you seek out a competent psychotherapist. I'd hate to have you wake up some day and having concluded your lack of perfection seek the logical solution.
Posted by: Sparky

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 09/10/05 04:16 AM

"It will prove, conclusively, that our DNA was created by purely natural processes and not by any intelligent or sentient being."

Actually I have it from good authority that God did not intend to make man, it was purely an accident, "And God repented that he had made man". (Genesis, the story of Noah)

I think it might have been some pea soup he spilled one day.

lol...
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 09/10/05 05:56 AM

An accident by a perfect creator? Say it isn't so.

ROFL.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 09/11/05 06:59 AM

"Only perfection could survive such an abyss of chaos."

This is a common logical fallacy known as argument from ignorance.
Posted by: Johan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/06/05 11:46 AM

Quote:
Proof that God did not create life
But who created the meteors etc? I have come to the conclusion that after you die there is nothing. No heaven or hell, and you won't float around here on earth either. Pretty sad thought maybe. So no saying hi to God in the "afterlife". Only thing I still can't fully accept is how it all began. This "something" today must have been "nothing" at an earlier stage. So DA Morgan, I would like to know how it all began. And while you're at it tell me the meaning of life too.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/06/05 02:25 PM

1. If we do not know a perfect answer to the question of how it all began, are we justified in using the argument from ignorance? "We don't know, therefore god."

2. There is no discernable purpose to life.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/06/05 09:35 PM

Johan:

1. How it all began?
Don't know. Neither do you. Neither does anyone. Every current answer whether scientific, relgious, philosophical, or other is not correct. What science can tell us is precisely where it all was an actosecond after that point-in-time.

Now are you going to conclude that because no one knows the answer you must create a mythical creature and bestow upon it supernatural powers?

2. Purpose of life?
For me? For you? For amoeba? For zebra? Or would you like me to offer up an answer that applies to all life-forms in all galaxies in all possible universes?

For me? It is turning oxygen into carbon dioxide. The longer I can continue doing that the better.
Posted by: jjw

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/07/05 12:52 AM

In case DA Morgan?s original post has been forgotten

Source:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050814170410.htm

If this work holds up it will be one of the most important and fundamental pieces of research in our life times.

It will prove, conclusively, that our DNA was created by purely natural processes and not by any intelligent or sentient being.

Use this to kick the cr.p of our your local religious nut-case. Oh yeah, they aren't rational beings, so perhaps you shouldn't try. They are the same people that used to burn witches and heretics.

--------------------
DA Morgan

Reply:
Before I went on to this extensive development of so many ideas for and against religion I made a reply on another topic, RELIGION AND THE BIG BANG, wherein I said that there did not seem to be any attack on religion here because there is no point. So, I was wrong. In spite of what may be a majority (fortunately not on this Forum?) of believers wishing to foster the growth of faith founded ideas there is still little purpose to use a potential scientific discovery to poke them in the eye. Anyway, what does such an argument prove? If I have a magic god wand I can change the DNA all I wish and put us all back with the fossils. There is simply no point no matter how much fun it may be. There is one area in astronomy that I find suggestive in Genius.

When some people attack the Bible, and I may do it some day, they argue that the creation part describes the creation of the UNIVERSE. I have never seen it that way. I see it as a reasonably good description of the start of the Solar System. Try changing the word God whenever used to ?gravity? or ?gravitation? and it is not to far from a depiction of the formation of the Solar System. Now, if you did not know anything about gravity God would provide a possible substitute for the authors back then. Now when Adam and Eve come along they have some thing a little heavier to work out.

I read every reply in this subject area and it was very informative, at times. Cheers.
jw
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/07/05 11:21 AM

I have given my own names to two subjects not covered by anything I have read:

1. infiniverse = this is a product of the belief that there is more than one universe, and more than one multiverse and more than one multi- multiverse and so on. the infiniverse is literally everything.

2. the golden laws = basically every single rule of science (known and unknown) that particles abide by to produce everything

It is true that nothing can exist without a physical form. to exist, something must have mass.
Religion states that a sentient being created everything out of nothingness. This is not possible; to create something, the being would already have had to be there, therefore contradicting the entire belief of creation since something that doesn't exist can't just appear, fully formed and sentient out of nothing. People can then argue, doesn't that apply for the multiverse aswell. The answer is yes, it does, the multiverse also could not have sprang out of nothingness. but, to believe that the infiniverse was there before life is much more logical because life is a product of the golden laws. people then say, who invented these laws. the answer is that these laws could not have been invented because intelligence is a product of the llaws.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/08/05 10:12 AM

Rob,

There seem to me to be a few assumptions here.

If an entity created this universe, then necessarily that entity would sit outside the realm of our direct experience.

It is like ants hatched in a plastic container.
They are sitting in a closed system.
They cannot know anything of what lies outside that system except by conjecture, (which by definition, is not knowing). The only way they can know what lies outside is if we open the container and break into their realm of experience.


This next part of the analogy is loose and is only used to explain the principle that there may be conditions outside our closed system that do not correlate to anything within it, or if they do are still unknowable.

If that container was suspended in thick, sticky goo, then the ants [experience of] physics would not correlate with that outside of the container where things float. How can they actually know that outside the container, objects are suspended in green goo?

When you postulate that -

It is true that nothing can exist without a physical form. to exist, something must have mass.


Well maybe in our experience, (although I did think that there were things that composed no mass and consisted of spin - but this is probably my ignorance, so please stick boot in here...if I am talking cr.p)

But the point remains that you are making an assumption that nothing can exist without mass outside of our closed physical system. I cannot see how you can possibly know this.

As for your second statement -

Religion states that a sentient being created everything out of nothingness.


You are on much steadier ground here, for instance, Christianity states that a sentient being created this universe out of nothing. It uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which is widely accepted to mean 'creation ex nihilo' in this instance.

You go on to state -

This is not possible; to create something, the being would already have had to be there, therefore contradicting the entire belief of creation since something that doesn't exist can't just appear, fully formed and sentient out of nothing.


Well yes, the sentient being would already have to be there, but the middle part of the statement -

?therefore contradicting the entire belief of creation


I hope you are talking about ?our beliefs about creation? and not saying 'contradicting what the whole of creation believes' - I'm just being facetious smile

Maybe you mean 'in contradiction to our current sum of knowledge that leads us to believe that...'

Well either way, you are applying principles that are formed within, and apply to a closed (or self contained) physical system.

You state -

something that doesn't exist can't just appear, fully formed and sentient out of nothing.


The Christian faith claims that God just exists. It says that God simply is. There is no reference to time here or any point where God came into existence. It recognises the difficulty of applying temporal terms to God?s existence and just accepts what it believes God says about himself ? ?I am?.

So no claim is being made that something does not exist and then just appears, fully formed and sentient out of nothing.

And again, if such a claim was being made, I repeat - you are applying principles that are formed within, and apply to a closed system.

You go on ?

People can then argue, doesn't that apply for the multiverse as well.


I cannot comment really on this ? I am ignorant of multiple universe theories.

You say ?

The answer is yes, it does, the multiverse also could not have sprung out of nothingness.


Here, you do seem to acknowledge that those of a religious bent and those of a purely scientific persuasion encounter some of the same issues when we think about what it means when our current experience of time doesn?t apply.

You say ?

?but, to believe that the infiniverse was there before life is much more logical because life is a product of the golden laws.


You seem to assume that life is only ever a product of universal laws. Well in our experience it is, but only in our experience of the closed system we sit within.

You say ?

?people then say, who invented these laws. The answer is that these laws could not have been invented because intelligence is a product of the laws.


I see the circular nature of this argument and why you reject the question, but your response is actually framed within another assumption ?

I believe that intelligence can only be a by-product of the laws of this universe.

Yes, within your frame of reference this is true. But only within the framework of what you know and this cannot include what lies outside of the closed physical system within which you live.


I do understand that it is as much of an assumption to say there is anything other than nothingness outside of this universe/multiverse, but it is enough to counter the claim that the way you state things is the only possible way it can be.

Regards,

Blacknad.
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/08/05 05:54 PM

Blacknad,
The multiverse theory is based on the assumption that the creation of a universe is a naturally occuring thing. Therefore it should be happening all the time in different places. The theory also suggests that the universes cluster together into multiverses the same way stars and planets form galaxies. (Just so you know.)

About your example of ants in a plastic container;
I think you're implying that somewhere there is a set of rules different to our's which particles follow. (or there are different rules in many different places.) Let us look at numbers. there are many different rules numbers can follow. for example, you can keep multiplying a number by 2. the rule here is simple, and it is easy to predict what will happen in the future. Prime numbers also follow a set of rules, they just have not been found yet. My point is, numbers can have an infinite set of rules to follow. But these rules will all be based on simple, basic rules. For example, you can't add 1 to 2 and get anything other than 3. that is what i meant by 'golden laws'. So, to be able to create a set of new, working laws, something would already have to be there to create them. no matter which set of laws this 'something' came from, it too would be a product of the golden laws.

You said that you agreed that something can't be created of of nothing. Yet, you also said you do not know how i could possibly know that everything needs mass to exist. Well, let's use the example of numbers again. To get from 1 to Zero you would have to pass through an infinite amount of numbers.
e.g. 0.0(recurring)9871. With this in mind, it is impossible to ever get to zero. That is why I don't believe that there is anything without mass.
(by the way, the numbers were a representation for particles)
Posted by: Ric

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/09/05 02:44 AM

Things like this annoy me. If there is a "God"-- an omnipotent being who had the power to create the whole universe singlehandedly-- why wouldn't he have the power to create all the complexities we discover in it? Why can it not be that "God" created this process in which life was created? Why is it that this is proof that "God" did not create life? If he did exist, and did have the power he is supposed to have, surley he could create a process such as this? This "Natural process" is, after all, a part of the universe. I am not a religious person in any way. I am simply curious as to why people must have such a clear line devided between religion and science. Why does this prove that "God" did not create life?
Posted by: Dogrock

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/09/05 03:26 AM

If a person asks: Does God exists? And the answer is: God made you ask that question. It's circular logic, feeding on itself, it doesn't answer anything. Unless people can ask "does God exist" outside of God's influence, then the question is meaningless. So you can't say God created the complex world, but only when we found out about it ourselves, it's cheating of sorts. Still I think religious beliefs reflect the motivation for understanding everything. I only object if they say insist the earth is flat or such like against the obvious facts.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/09/05 10:41 PM

Blacknad creating fantasy from fiction yet again wrote:
"If an entity created this universe, then necessarily that entity would sit outside the realm of our direct experience."

So Moses was a liar? Along with every other saint from Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology. Wow you really are on your own wavelength. You just toss it all to the wind and write whatever nonsense you think will sound good at the moment.

Has it dawned on you that other people use their brains to perform something called critical thinking? Do you know what critical thinking is?

How can you expect anyone to read your long dissertations when one can punch a hole the size of an aircraft carrier in your very first sentence? Are you truly as incapable of thinking as it appears? A simple YES or NO answer will suffice.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/09/05 10:45 PM

Ric asks:
" If there is a "God"-- an omnipotent being who had the power to create the whole universe singlehandedly-- why wouldn't he have the power to create all the complexities we discover in it?"

Well of course he would. No question about it. But if he did then he would know about penicillin. He would therefore have the opportunity to make one of the following two conscious choices.

1. Tell people to prevent the unnecessary painful suffering and death of billions.

2. Keep it a secret and let people, thousands of years later, find it for themselves.

The first choice would demonstrate a god that cared about his creations, valued life, and saw as horrible the suffering of innocent young children.

The second choice would demonstrate an unfeeling, uncaring, or malicious monster.

Choice is yours. Knew and didn't tell, didn't know, or doesn't exist. There are only three possible choices. Pick yours with care.
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/10/05 02:57 PM

Whatever proof that there is no God you show to a true believer can be seen by them as a 'test of faith'.
Whatever proof you show to a true atheist that there is a God (Like dying and going to heaven) can be seen by them as an experiment being performed on them in a virtual reality world.

What should we do?!
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/10/05 03:55 PM

There is no "proof" of God. There is no "disproof" of God. At least not in scientific terms. It's all philosophy - which might be amusing, but it isn't science.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/10/05 07:31 PM

DA Morgan

Blacknad creating fantasy from fiction yet again wrote:
"If an entity created this universe, then necessarily that entity would sit outside the realm of our direct experience."

So Moses was a liar? Along with every other saint from Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology. Wow you really are on your own wavelength. You just toss it all to the wind and write whatever nonsense you think will sound good at the moment.


REP: Okay you?re right ? this doesn?t hold up.
But Christian theology states that God is distinct and separate from his creation. Therefore, unless God chooses to enter that creation then we will have no direct experience of him.

So yes, Moses would be a liar unless God chose to interact with his creation.


Regards,

Blacknad.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/10/05 07:38 PM

The FallibleFiend

It's all philosophy - which might be amusing, but it isn't science.

You are right and this site is not the place for it. I will stay away from posting on the subject as long as people stop posting things like this in the public domain -

[DA Morgan.
Use this to kick the cr.p of our your local religious nut-case. Oh yeah, they aren't rational beings, so perhaps you shouldn't try. They are the same people that used to burn witches and heretics.]

I have given an undertaking that I will not start any religiously based threads (such as God and the big bang), and I will not - this is only annoying people.

I honestly came here for the science and not to pick a fight.

Regards,

Blacknad.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/10/05 08:45 PM

blacknad, I'm not attempting to tell you what you can and can't post on the site. I'm not the topic police. Not for you and not for anyone else with whom I disagree.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/10/05 11:49 PM

smile TY - but I'm gonna get a kickin' from the moderators sooner or later.

Blacknad.
Posted by: jjw

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/11/05 12:20 AM

I know this will be a wasted effort before I start, but anyway?..

The religious buffs are going back to creation again! How about science and human kind? I think there are some that disagree with evolution as projected with out any religious motives. How about man created by a ?superior? being.

He might do the following:

Make the blood bright red so he will know he is bleeding.
Make him with pain sensors so he will learn what hurts and avoid it.
Make his waste brown and smell bad so he will know not to eat it.
Make him to sleep and recover his energy lest he burn himself out.
Make him to fear the unknown so he will not do dangerous things.
Make his taste able to discern what is good to eat and not good to eat.
Make him dependant on women so he will protect his family.
Make him with a cushion of hair on his head to soften blows.
Make his brain encased in bone so it will be protected.
Make him with an opposing thumb so he can grasp food and objects.
Make him stand upright so he can run swiftly and escape danger.
Make him with two eyes so he has depth perception.

Make him to think with his brain and not his loins.. Woops forgot it.

I do not argue for creation of anything but evolution does not explain the color of our blood or of our feces and that is just for starters.
Jim Wood
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/11/05 01:32 PM

TheFallibleFriend,
'There is no "proof" of God. There is no "disproof" of God. At least not in scientific terms. It's all philosophy - which might be amusing, but it isn't science.'
I agree. But I wanted to ask you something; have you ever heard a scientist say, "We will never know till we die." or "the answer lies with God."
Basically, have you ever experienced a scientist implying that ANYTHING was out of the realm of science and that there is a God who will provide the answer to any unanswered questions after death? If so, this is a very important issue because scientists who think like that aren't doing their job properly.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/11/05 01:54 PM

Rob said:
----
I agree. But I wanted to ask you something; have you ever heard a scientist say, "We will never know till we die." or "the answer lies with God."
Basically, have you ever experienced a scientist implying that ANYTHING was out of the realm of science and that there is a God who will provide the answer to any unanswered questions after death? If so, this is a very important issue because scientists who think like that aren't doing their job properly.
---

I'm not sure that's true. A scientist can have two sets of opinions - one that is derived from science and the other that is derived from his religion. Take Dr. Ken Miller who is among the strongest debaters for evolution and against creationism and intelligent design.

He is a theist evolutionist. He believes in God. He believes in evolution. ( http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/ )

That evolution is true is his scientific opinion. That God did it is his religious opinion.

Not every action of a scientist has to reflect science any more than every action of a teacher has to reflect teaching or every action of a lawyer has to reflect the law.
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/11/05 04:13 PM

my point was; theists are less motivated to deceipher the mysteries of the universe because they believe that they will ultimately gain this knowledge when they die. I know this from personal experience because i was once a theist.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/11/05 05:19 PM

Rob wrote:
"my point was; theists are less motivated to deceipher the mysteries of the universe because they believe that they will ultimately gain this knowledge when they die. I know this from personal experience because i was once a theist."


That may be true for many theists. I'm not sure it's true for all theists. I also was once a theist (raised a Baptist). I was a strong believer till I was about 15 or so. But I was interested in finding out long before that. I knew I wanted to be a scientist as early as 5 and have never waivered in that aspiration.

There was a part I read in the bible. I don't recall the passage. I can't say it gave impetus to my interests, but it did inspire them. It was something about how we should go out and try to understand the world the Lord created. I'm sure that many practicing scientists have been similarly inspired.

On average, though, it could be that religion closes more minds than it opens. I'm not sure.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/11/05 06:20 PM

I am a theist and spend a lot of my time thinking and reading about scientific issues. I am desperate to know the answers.

And as for religion closing more minds than it opens - well, closed minded people are found all over, and religion has more than its fair share - can't deny it. But UK organisation 'Christians in Science' boasts more that 1500 members, and these are people working in real science - not creationists or ignorant evolution bashers.

And you must remember that the discipline of science grew up in monotheistic cultures only, where there was a belief that because of God, the universe must be ordered and therefore examinable.

-------------------------------------------------

'In the beginning were created only germs or causes of the forms of life which were afterwards to be developed in gradual course' - St. Augustine 400 AD.

-------------------------------------------------

Regards,

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/12/05 02:41 AM

Blacknad wrote:
"I am a theist and spend a lot of my time thinking and reading about scientific issues. I am desperate to know the answers."

Then try getting a serious education. What you've demonstrated so far is an abiding desire to bury your head in the sand.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/12/05 07:57 PM

DA Morgan,

'Then try getting a serious education.'

REP: As you can probably figure out from my past, I was never in a position where a serious education was a possibility. But I have spent time educating myself. And you are misled when you talk about my inability to apply Boolean logic to my thinking. I have studied analytical philosophy at college and have read widely on the subject.

It is of no use to descend to insult and sarcasm because you disagree with my conclusions.

You have demonstrated an inability to think more widely, and follow through some of my arguments to their conclusion.

I feel you are also bound within a method of thinking that prevents you from stepping outside of the narrow confines of this present paradigm.

An example - if five hundred years ago you had talked about some of the seemingly contradictory properties of matter that we know of today, you would have been dismissed, because tat that time, thinking was bound within an 'is - or' paradigm. But in fact quantum theory sometimes requires an 'is - and' approach to processing the facts.

So their thinking was at fault. It is clear to me that in some of your arguments, that you are demonstrating an equally black and white thought process.

You are a slave to your logic, and cannot open up your mind to recognise that there may be more variables in the discussion than you recognise, with your simple 'yes or no' or 'there are only three choices - pick one'.

Unfortunately for you, you are surrounded by others who think in the same terms, and therefore you are constantly reinforcing each other's method of thinking - which is a fine way to think about science, but is completely unable to - A. think that there may be anything outside of the physical processes we witness, and B. have any meaningful thought about it.

A God that allows suffering may well be subject to your Boolean logic, but your mistake is in thinking that you are in possession of all of the possible sets.

'Then try getting a serious education.'

This comment demonstrates an intellectual snobbery that is astonishing, but sadly far too prevalent.

You have also shown that you are riddled with misconceptions, misinterpretations and myth regarding what serious Christianity says about itself, and you do nothing to admit when you are mistaken, either to me or probably yourself. You just move on to the next supposed point of contention in an ever increasing circle. The minutia will allow you to debate it indefinitely.

Example - In 'Adam, Eve and Me' you accused me of believing in a God who forced two bears to rip children apart. I demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that this was not the case. You didn't even acknowledge the fact but moved straight on.

And you seem incapable of grasping the implication: You're thinking is clouded by half-truths and myth, and is emotionally driven by your hatred of all things religious.

Fair enough, it's your prerogative.

Regards,

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/12/05 08:23 PM

Blacknad wrote:
"It is of no use to descend to insult and sarcasm because you disagree with my conclusions."

Because I disagree with your conclusion? Of course not. I disagree with many people I respect. They demonstrate the ability to think logically and deeply.

Perhaps due to your background you think that you think ... but I think otherwise. Most of your postings remind me of a famous quotation:

"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."

If you demonstrated the ability to comprehend an issue at, excuse me for this statement, an adult level, I would respect your conclusion. I see only evidence of someone recoiling from a horror and stopping too soon just because where they are is better than where they were.
Posted by: Mike Kremer

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/12/05 11:54 PM

'In the beginning were created only germs or causes of the forms of life which were afterwards to be developed in gradual course' - St. Augustine 400 AD.


Its interesting that Blacknad reminded me of St Augustines, scientific phraseology.
Augustine almost got it right. Of course he did'nt know about Eukaryotes, back in those days.
Matter of fact had he be born a couple of hundred years later, the rising Catholic church would have clamped down upon such blasphemy.
Eukaryotes of course are single cells that have been around for hundreds of millions of years.
Being single cells they are not capable of doing anything else other than living and dying.
They had no control over their enviroment, no movement of any kind. (A single cell means no flagella to move with) They were a product of their enviroment, though they could not sense it.
They were so small and minute that they were pushed and pulled by minute atomic forces, exactly like Brownian motion. Except that they went one better, they were attracted or repelled by their surface molecules.
The particular surface molecular key that fitted another chemical molecule, enabled both to stay together. Being 3d, molecular clumping took things up to a new level. Prehaps one Eukaryote and its 'key' could now attract a food key.
The attractive power are surface molecules...exactly like the hairs on present day Geckos feet. Geckos final hairs are so small that they cannot be seen, unless you use an Electron microscope.
Go to your local pet shop and marvel at them running upside down on glass or other materials.
No vacuum, no sticky, just Van de Waals atomic forces. I should know, I keep 4 of them. They often sleep upside down on the ceiling above a light bulb if they need a little extra warmth.

But back to Eukaryotes, their molecular chemical clumping gave them freedom. Freedom to evolve, .....Evolution. Colonys that became the first multicellular creatures, that first evolved over 600 million years ago. We now call them Choanoflagellates, they packaged up their DNA, lived multiplied and died. Evolving ever upwards getting ever more complicated. Ain't nature wonderful, no God intervened, just molecular nature, in the beginning that is.
Have you ever wondered as to why when you go up the family tree of evolution there are less and less NEW species? By the way, single celled Eukaryotes vastly outnumber all other forms of multicellular life in terms of numbers and species on the Earth today.
Isnt nature amazing, it took trial and error and many millions of years to put a mouth bang in the middle of a group of cells, more millions to place a light sensitive cell within a group, and many more millions of years to develop a lens for that cell. Trial and error, trial and error, loads of time to develop and keep those good evolutionary innovations. Of course I know that others would say God would have done it, and got it right straight away, in 7 days I have heard, or was it 4000 years according to Bishop Usher?
I just dont believe in fairy tales now I have grown up. And I hope you dont either.
Thats all for now.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/13/05 08:50 PM

Of course I know that others would say God would have done it, and got it right straight away, in 7 days I have heard, or was it 4000 years according to Bishop Usher?


I disagree with them just as much as you do.

Regards,

Blacknad
Posted by: Garry Denke

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/13/05 09:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Kremer:
Of course I know that others would say God would have done it, and got it right straight away, in 7 days I have heard, or was it 4000 years according to Bishop Usher?
Quote:
Originally posted by Blacknad:
I disagree with them just as much as you do.
Actually it was 6 days, rested on the 7th day; and James Ussher dated creation 4004 BC, not 4000 years.
Hell, I'm just glad it's almost Sundown, this Yom Kippur diet isn't any fun.
Perhaps the 'Hot Soup' diet is better?

Peace \/

Garry 'Jesus Freak' Denke
http://www.garrydenke.com
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/14/05 12:21 AM

Garry:

Eat enough horseradish and you won't care.
Posted by: Garry Denke

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/14/05 07:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Eat enough horseradish and you won't care.
Horseradish has a million possibilities, lots of flavor and no fat. In one tablespoon of prepared horseradish, there is only 6 calories, 1.4 grams of carbohydrates, 14 milligrams of sodium, 44 milligrams of potassium, 9 milligrams of calcium, 5 milligrams of phosphorous and zero fat. So an open minded cook can put the full power of horseradish to work without adding unnecessary fat and calories.

If you?re trying to lose weight, make sure horseradish, mustard and salsa are on your shopping list, advises recent guidelines on obesity from the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (NHLBI). These condiments received high marks throughout the guidelines for their low-fat, high-flavor qualities. The first-ever federal guidelines developed by NHLBI in cooperation with the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK) are designed to help doctors care for overweight and obese patients ? a public health problem that affects 97 million American adults ? or 55% of the population.

The Agricultural Research Service and Oklahoma State University proved both horseradish and mustard oil pack a punch against Listeria, E. coli, Staphylococcus aureus and other food pathogens you definitely don?t want in your sandwich. That?s because these condiments contain a pungent chemical called allyl isothiocyanate (AITC). Mustard oil has 93 percent AITC, while horseradish has 60 percent AITC.

Peace \/

Garry 'Jesus Freak' Denke
http://www.denocoinc.com
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/15/05 12:02 AM

Garry: One tablespoon of horseradish will also put you in the hospital.

Step 1: Put the teaspoon into your mouth.
Step 2: Eat it.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/15/05 06:09 AM

I take the responsibilty.
Start a thread and I will answer all your relevant queries.
Posted by: Garry Denke

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/15/05 10:32 AM

Scientists crack 40-year-old DNA puzzle and point to 'Hot Soup' at the origin of life

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28509

Horseradish, great in Soup, makes it Hot

Page 8...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 10/26/05 04:34 AM

Now I explain how DNA came into existence.
DNA is the Manifestation of the Non-Linear Probabilty which limits the number of Possible Universe.
A Non-Linearity which started feeding itself once the Sequence was achieved... it keept building it self till it was destroyed spontaneously into something new.
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 12/19/05 06:25 PM

This is more like it.
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/08/06 12:13 PM

"lol what a load of Crap DNA is linear in most all parts of the universe . God get you're False facts right.
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/08/06 12:17 PM

DKV you Believe in that Sanātana Dharma Crap? xD
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/09/06 04:11 AM

DVK exercising a lack of contact with reality asks:
"Now I explain how DNA came into existence."

Can't.

Neither can anyone else.

Yet.

So what.

The operative phrase is "Yet."

This is 2006 ... we do not know all of the answers ... yet ... but every day we learn more of them.

It must be comforting to know all of the answers or know someone that every Sunday tells you he does. Here are some quotes for DVK and his kind to consider:

"We should be agnostic about those things for which there is no evidence. We should not hold beliefs merely because they gratify our desires for afterlife, immortality, heaven, hell, etc.
-Julian Huxley, Religion without Revelation

Faith is an absolutely marvelous tool. With faith there is no question too big for even the smallest mind.
~ Rev. Donald Morgan

Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof.
~ Ashley Montague

Scriptures: the sacred books of our holy religion,
as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.
~ Ambrose Bierce

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.
~ Charles Darwin

To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.
~ Isaac Asimov
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/09/06 10:26 AM

DKV you Believe in that Sanātana Dharma Crap? xD
REP: Thanks for the question.
But What is Sanatana Dharma ?
It is a simple concept some people say.Some say it is all inclusive description of Nature.
And there are people who wont believe in it ...
But again do we know what are we not believing in?
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/16/06 01:20 PM

You're wasting your time DA, I honestly believe that dkv is the creation of a computer programmer who is trying, but failing to create an AI system that can pass the Turing test.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/16/06 09:53 PM

dvk wrote:
"Dont be afraid of any Philosophy till you believe in your God."

Take your medication.

"Any Universal religion must provide you all inclusive answers."

Take your medication.

"It should make you feel glad about your past , present and future."

All three of the above statments are wholly devoid of content. Are you incapable of sentient thought?
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/19/06 01:49 PM

dkv, what is 1 + 1?

Moderators - this is not a joke in any way. I am not trying to be rude. Aren't you curious about his answer too?
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/19/06 07:14 PM

Actually I think the moderators are being irresponsible letting someone obviously in need of clinical intervention continue to post here.

This is not a responsible use of the internet. It damages the site. It provides zero content value to those wishing to visit.

And those interested in actual science are spending all of their time just fending off the possibility that some children might read this rubbish.

Who is moderating the moderators?
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/19/06 07:31 PM

The Illuminati?
Posted by: Justine

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/20/06 06:50 PM

[QB] dvk wrote:
"Dont be afraid of any Philosophy till you believe in your God."

Don't be afraid to explore all different philosophies/religions until you find the one that suits you best

"Any Universal religion must provide you all inclusive answers."

For a religion to be considered Universal it must have an answer for all the questions a person who follows that religion may have.

"It should make you feel glad about your past , present and future."

Ideally, the point in having religion is for the person to experience a happier life.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/20/06 07:43 PM

Justine if you truly believe that "the point in having religion is for the person to experience a happier life" you are at odds with the major monotheistic religions.

The point of these religions is to toady up as a sycophant and worship an entity claimed to hold your fate in its metaphorical hands. Screw up and you get the screws put to you for all eternity. Do what some self-serving self-righteous hypocrite tells you and all is forgiven not matter how evil you are.

Oh and be sure to take a percentage of your hard-earned money and contribute to those who spend their time dreaming up ways to scare young children into compliance so the cycle continues.

Take away the money and the religions would blow away like sand in the desert. Take away the threat of eternal damnation and no one would give a damn.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/20/06 10:44 PM

The point of these religions is to toady up as a sycophant and worship an entity claimed to hold your fate in its metaphorical hands. Screw up and you get the screws put to you for all eternity. Do what some self-serving self-righteous hypocrite tells you and all is forgiven not matter how evil you are.


- I probably have as much misunderstanding about Quantum Theory as you have about religion.

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/20/06 11:50 PM

The difference then Blacknad is that I have studied both and you have studied neither (I use the word study here in its more serious form).

You have a different understanding of religion? I'm all ears.

1. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that that is not a tax exempt organization collecting money from its adherants

2. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that does not indoctrinate children.

3. Name the major western religion (older than 100 years) that acknowledges the Epic of Gilgamesh.

4. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that doesn't threaten those that ignore its teachings with eternal damnation/rebirth.

Yes I've no doubt you know the teachings of one or two religions at a superficial level. But I've equally no doubt that you can not reconcile basic inconsistencies with provable reality.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 12:32 AM

1. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that that is not a tax exempt organization collecting money from its adherents

- I belong to a church that is not tax exempt, even though the vast majority of its money goes to projects that would be considered charitable.
Talking in terms of 'major religions' allows for massive generalisations.

2. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that does not indoctrinate children.

- Again talking of 'major religions'. I have a two year old daughter and if she is interested I will expose her to as many philosophies and religions as possible and very much encourage her to make her own mind up - that's if she want anything to do with it all - she may choose to follow nothing, and that is her absolute right.

It would be disgraceful to have her thinking something that she has not rationally and freely accepted.

3. Name the major western religion (older than 100 years) that acknowledges the Epic of Gilgamesh.

- The issue here is the dual accounts of floods amongst other things.

'The timings of the flood accounts are vastly different. The Gilgamesh flood took only 3 weeks, whereas the Genesis flood lasted nearly a year. The Gilgamesh flood included several 7 day long events. This "perfect" number is found throughout the Bible, so would be expected to be retained if copied from the epic of Gilgamesh. However, the Bible uses numbers like 40 and 150 - much longer timeframes.'

'The boats in the two accounts are quite different. The Gilgamesh boat was an unseaworthy cube with a slate roof. Obviously, such a design would immediately flip over or roll around in the water. In contrast, the ark had dimensions that were ideal for a seaworthy ship. This might be surprising, since both cultures were not noted for their nautical skills. It is obvious that the gods of the Sumerians had no expertise in shipbuilding.'

It is possible that the flood was a real event in the history of mankind that was passed down through the generations of different cultures. If so, the Gilgamesh account seems to have undergone some rather radical transformations.

4. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that doesn't threaten those that ignore its teachings with eternal damnation/rebirth.

- I don't want to start a debate with Philege here, but the nature of Hell is a subject under debate by serious theologians. The middle ages and Dante's fire and eternal torture do not serve us well and are sucked up by Christians who prefer to accept what they are told rather than actually studying what the Bible says in its original language. Hell may in fact simply be a place where God has withdrawn from and humanity is left to its own devices without any restraints. I obviously won't go into the scriptural detail here but the church as a whole has believed different things at different times on this matter, and it may be that we have the 'Church' at the heights of its societal power to thank for using the threat of fire and brimstone to hold to power.


Blacknad.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 12:33 AM

1. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that that is not a tax exempt organization collecting money from its adherents

- I belong to a church that is not tax exempt, even though the vast majority of its money goes to projects that would be considered charitable.
Talking in terms of 'major religions' allows for massive generalisations.

2. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that does not indoctrinate children.

- Again talking of 'major religions'. I have a two year old daughter and if she is interested I will expose her to as many philosophies and religions as possible and very much encourage her to make her own mind up - that's if she want anything to do with it all - she may choose to follow nothing, and that is her absolute right.

It would be disgraceful to have her thinking something that she has not rationally and freely accepted.

3. Name the major western religion (older than 100 years) that acknowledges the Epic of Gilgamesh.

- The issue here is the dual accounts of floods amongst other things.

'The timings of the flood accounts are vastly different. The Gilgamesh flood took only 3 weeks, whereas the Genesis flood lasted nearly a year. The Gilgamesh flood included several 7 day long events. This "perfect" number is found throughout the Bible, so would be expected to be retained if copied from the epic of Gilgamesh. However, the Bible uses numbers like 40 and 150 - much longer timeframes.'

'The boats in the two accounts are quite different. The Gilgamesh boat was an unseaworthy cube with a slate roof. Obviously, such a design would immediately flip over or roll around in the water. In contrast, the ark had dimensions that were ideal for a seaworthy ship. This might be surprising, since both cultures were not noted for their nautical skills. It is obvious that the gods of the Sumerians had no expertise in shipbuilding.'

It is possible that the flood was a real event in the history of mankind that was passed down through the generations of different cultures. If so, the Gilgamesh account seems to have undergone some rather radical transformations.

4. Name the major religion (older than 100 years) that doesn't threaten those that ignore its teachings with eternal damnation/rebirth.

- I don't want to start a debate with Philege here, but the nature of Hell is a subject under debate by serious theologians. The middle ages and Dante's fire and eternal torture do not serve us well and are sucked up by Christians who prefer to accept what they are told rather than actually studying what the Bible says in its original language. Hell may in fact simply be a place where God has withdrawn from and humanity is left to its own devices without any restraints. I obviously won't go into the scriptural detail here but the church as a whole has believed different things at different times on this matter, and it may be that we have the 'Church' at the heights of its societal power to thank for using the threat of fire and brimstone to hold to power.


Blacknad.
Posted by: Eduardo

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 12:58 AM

Ladies Please...
I've read them all...
Gilgamesh - Very repetative but has its moments of action.
Bible - often contradictory, tries to sort itself out later on.
Both lovely myths for their time, but that has gone now... give me 24 hours...
PS I would welcome contributions to a modern creation myth, no suggestion too rediculous!!
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 05:22 AM

Blacknad ... you didn't even meet the test of question 1. I said name it ... not make a vague allusion to it.

Strikes 1, 2, and 3. You are out!

And your arguments around the Epic of Gilgamesh disingenuous. Lets get to some facts.

1. Both contain word-for-word identical sentences.
2. Both end with the release of a bird to find land.

I wonder whose English language translations of both you've read to not see the similarities as overwhelming.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 10:19 AM

Dan,

I don't feel the need to defend the whole of religion. I don't even feel the need to defend the whole of the church.

In response to the out and out God bashing that appears on this site I choose sometimes to respond, but am seeing the point of doing so less and less. These are never ending arguments and your objections can easily outlast your lifetime.

I am simply trying to show that I believe that some religion can in fact be rational and thought out, and more to the point can stand against the blanket claims of the levels of dishonesty and hypocrisy that you level at it.

I do not have all knowledge, and agree with St. Paul, 'We currently see through a glass darkly'.
But I have enough to be satisfied, because essentially Christ's interaction with me is relational and experiential.

So the fact is that I am forced to take on some humility and admit the fact that I am not even capable of gathering all knowledge, never mind making sense of it and drawing a complete and reliable conclusion.

This is why Christ said - 'I stand at the door and knock'. We are not forced to engage with God and have every right to let our angry objections act as the lock keeping the door closed. But he also said - 'If you open it, I will come in and eat with you and you will eat with me'. This is the experience that was promised, and down through history many have found it to be true beyond your ability to comprehend. So whilst I do not understand the universe and like you I echo Abraham's doubt when he asked, 'Will not the judge of all the earth do right?' I am willing to accept God's response to Job - 'Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth - declare if you have understanding?'

With the Epic of Gilgamesh I will examine it further - my initial response is that in the same way that St. Paul quoted philosophers of his time when he recognised the truth of their claims, Moses or whoever did write the Torah, may well have drawn upon something familiar to his audience like the Epic of Gilgamesh where it contained the truth he was trying to convey. Shakespeare drew upon other writers all the time and it is only this modern age that has such a deal with intellectual property rights. We cannot visit our present understanding of writing upon those writing thousands of years ago. They did not see things as we do.

If any of the early Biblical stories contain truth and are not just there to convey a general truth, then those large spectacles would be open for all to see and it wouldn't surprise me to find other accounts of them in the literature of the time.

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 05:26 PM

You are correct ... some religion might be well thought out. But that religion would likely be a modern fabrication.

That is why I put in the 100 year caveat.

Lets get down to basics ... either there is a god that is older than the universe and created it or there is a fantasy used by alpha males to control the behaviour of others. Is there a third choice?

If the former than it MUST be consistent for ALL of human history since this entity didn't just reveal itself in the last 100 years.

Can some good come from religion and religious teachings? Absolutely. But far less than would come from equal effort put into facing the truth with integrity. We are a natural result of the physics and chemistry that is fundamental to this universe. We are not here by choice and we are not here by design. We can choose to do good things or we can choose to do bad things or we can choose to do absolutely nothing of note. If you want your life to have meaning you need to get off your bottom and do something meaningful.

Not warm and fuzzy but a lot more honest than ... telling people they have a choice between eternal pain and suffering and living in heaven with the angels ... if only they will give you their money and do what you tell them to do.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 05:57 PM

"I do not have all knowledge...But I have enough to be satisfied..."

I don't want this to be misinterpreted, I am thirsty for knowledge and really wish I had the kind of lifestyle that allowed me to indulge this desire to a greater degree, but I have a daughter, wife, need to earn the spondoolies, and do all the other stuff I should be doing. A life in Academia was never going to be my blessing.

Anyway, I don't really want to spend anymore time defending religion - but like Jim Wood says - ' You know your addicted to SAGG when you can't help but get involved.' I know what he means - I try to let your comments pass, because to be fair this is not the place for it, but at times I can't resist.

For instance, I would much rather have a living debate (as opposed to a google moment) about what science is telling us of the nature of the mind's interaction with the physical universe - especially at a quantum level. I would call this 'Science informed philosophy'. And this is something you would obviously have knowledge of and a contribution to make, and I would love to hear your thoughts. But you spend time knocking religion and remonstrating with the moderators for not cleaning up SAGG.
It will never be clean except by making it an exclusive club for a select few, and that might be good for you, but for those of us who appreciate the opportunity to engage with some finely tuned minds, it would be a loss.

I know I don't have anywhere near the level of intelligence and knowledge that you, Uncle Al and some others here possess, but won't you engage with us plebs never-the-less?

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 10:28 PM

You are hardly a plebe and not nearly as mindless as your last paragraph might indicate.

Not everyone can be, should be, or need be an academic and have huge amounts of spare time to do research. The point here is to challenge you to think harder. To consider more deeply. And to encourage your daughter to do the same.

Life is too precious to waste chasing fairy tales. If you are going to do something good ... do it and do it for the right reason. Because you've thought it out and made a conscious decision to do so.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/21/06 11:42 PM

Dammit, now you've made me feel guilty about my last post in 'Death and Dying' about the 'Not quite scum' board.

How could you go and say something nice about me?

But then again 'not nearly as mindless' doesn't quite equal 'not mindless' smile

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/22/06 06:04 AM

Far from hopeless? Is that better?
Posted by: Justine

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/23/06 06:58 PM

I just wanted to clarify.....way back on the other page.....I was just making an attempt to interpret DKV's statements. Next time, I'll put a clear heading on top.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/23/06 09:54 PM

Far from hopeless? Is that better?

- DA, coming from you I take this as high praise indeed. In fact I may just stop posting on SAGG now so I don't blow it and you never have a chance to revise me downwards.

Go out on a 'quite high'.

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/24/06 01:08 AM

Please don't. Stay and learn. Unlike some around here you show an ability, when challenged, to use your mind. (Damn more praise now I've surely driven him away).

There is nothing in facing reality that requires you to stop being a good person just as there is nothing in believing in a fantasy that forces you to not run red-lights. We are all human with the same strengths and weakensses to one degree or another. What separates people is more often hypocrisy than matters of fact.

The difference between dealing with reality and fantasy is that with reality, with acceptance of personal responsibility for your acts you take out the excuses. It is easy to be bad when you can point to original sin, an appple, a snake, or some other mythical troll or demon. I'm not responsible ... I was possessed by the devil.

Look at the universe from where I sit. If I screw up ... I screwed up. Period. No one to take the blame except the guy in the mirror. And I know, with all certainty, that when my time comes there will be no explanation, no judgement, no appeal for mercy, no second chance, no weighing of the scale. The final chapter will be written and it will be precisely what it is ... good, bad, and ugly.
Posted by: RM

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/24/06 11:00 AM

Try blaming society smile
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 01/24/06 08:05 PM

Maybe I could hire an attorney in my will and have him go to court and sue someone. That would make it all better. ;-)
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/05/06 08:25 AM

Very Intelligient! Stephen Wiseman
indicates that intelligience and character are positively correlated.
(Intelligence, and Ability. W. Stephen)

The Strong Minded are (Long Term Thinkers - relationship oriented)

The Weak Minded are (Short Term Thinkers- out for quick gains)
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/05/06 09:00 AM

Think big, don't think about details. Some times I think that scientists spend too much time looking down a microscope and fail to see the big picture.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/06/06 02:46 AM

I think you are incorrect. A scientist must look at reality at all levels ... from the entire universe down to a single quark.
Posted by: Bee

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/06/06 04:33 AM

So what if God and evolution are both true? Though I do not personally believe in the Bible as anything more as a collection of ancient mythology, Genesis seems to follow evolution pretty closely. It's likely that before anything the earth was formed and so night and day began somewhere along the line, it's likely geology was active a while before life began, and it seems to be a pretty established fact that then there was pretty much an explosion of life..
Leaving personal belief about whether there is a God or not out of it, where is the big conflict in these theories so far? I think the idea of teaching the Bible in school as an alternative to evolution (as in there is no evolution) is rediculous, but that does not prove or disprove God or even the Bible account of events in Genesis really.. food for thought?

.. oh well at least you lot don't wake me up at 9 am on the week ends with serene smiles, superior morals and magazines to sell while I resist the urge to shoot somebody wink
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/06/06 04:37 AM

Bee ... dump the bumblebee tag line. It isn't true.

God and evolution can both be true. But whereas there is evidence for the existence of one ... there is no evidence for the other. So why muddy the waters?
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/06/06 08:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ZORK:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZORK:
[qb] Think big, don't think about details. Some times I think that scientists spend too much time looking down a microscope and fail to see the big picture.
Dr. Senge in The Fifth Discipline. wrote "So it should come as no surprise that the unhealthiness of our world today is in direct proportion to our inability to see it as a whole." (Self-centred thinking) (Systems Thinking) Fragmentary thinking becomes systemic when we recover 'the memory of the whole'.... Competition becomes cooperation when we discover the 'community nature of the self'.... "In the new systems worldview, we move from the primacy of pieces to the primacy of the whole, from absolute truths to coherent interpretations, from self to community....

Actions have consequences, when we make decisions it is important to consider the interests of everyone. So many problems have occured because of people concentrating on their own self-interests. They may solve one problem, but in turn create many more problems in the process.

Ps. 119:18 "Open my eyes, so that I may see the wonderful truths in your law."
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/06/06 09:48 PM

If there is a point in what you just posted it eludes me completely.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/06/06 10:33 PM

D.A. Morgan, I've checked out that site which talks about the puzzle of DNA structures and it certainly does not corroborate your belief that God does not exist. In fact it only goes to show the wonder of God's creations which cannot be fathomed by man. What we think is intelligence is amoeboid to God. Why do you have this obsession with trying to prove God does not exist. Do you really think you can make a fart and your gas will evolve into some animal. Surely in your intelligence you KNOW that God exists. Wake up Mr. Morgan to reality.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/07/06 05:51 AM

A web site about DNA corraborating the creator of the universe? Wow you have a vivid imagination. I usually get my vital information about such matters from coloring books and ouija boards.

"The wonder of God's creation?" What have you been smoking? Your perfect deity created mistakes? Did he do it intentionally or is he just a bumbling fool?

If what I think of as intelligence is amoeboid to your god then that might well help to explain why he might in his ultimate wisdom have chosen to create smallpox. I guess I'm just to damned stupid to understand the wonder that is a child crippled by polio. All hail the creator of hell on earth.

I don't have any obsession to prove god does not exist. I have an obsession to argue against willfull and wanton ignorance. I have an obsession to argue against the primary causes of genocide and torture on this planet. If, by happenstance, that includes your faceless genocidal maniac then he can join the toothfairy, dragons, ghosts, and a host of other inventions of drug-induced psychoses.

I doubt my rectal excretions will generate life but then I don't recall any scientist claiming they might. Neither will the gas between your ears apparently generate a sentient conclusion.

I swear an oath upon all I hold sacred that your idea of God is pure unadulterated nonsense: The product of evolution of animist gods created by people blown out of their conscious minds by peyote, Aminita muscaria, psilocybin, and a few other mind-benders.

You ask me to wake up to reality? Good grief man have you been paying any attention to anything since the day of your birth?

The boiling point of water exists. Everyone no matter their nationality or religion can come to the same conclusion.

The sun gives off light and heat. Everyone no matter their nationality or religion can come to the same conclusion.

Your god doesn't even come close to measuring up to the same level of existence as what I just put down my garbage disposal.

But fear not ... if he did ... I would gladly stand up in front of him and demand he do unto himself as he has done unto others. He would be the creator of all that is evil and foul. He wouold be the creator of the snake, the apple, and I don't bow down to or worship evil incarnate.

You are a fool or worse.

But if, by chance you disagree with me, by all means please entertain us by explaining how it came to pass that your god created smallpox and malaria and polio.
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/07/06 07:24 AM

You must be thinking of a different God. Who said that God had to intervene in everything.
What would be the point of that?
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/07/06 08:55 AM

There is an interesting website on the shroud of Turin (Believed to be the buriel cloth of christ) for whoever is interested.

http://www.shroudstory.com/
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/07/06 05:56 PM

Zork wrote:
"Who said that God had to intervene in everything."

Zork ... find a single statement I made that indicates I would want god, were such an entity to exist ... to intervene.

That theoretical god created smallpox, malaria, TB, leukemia, polio, diptheria, AIDS, .... I don't want intervention. I'd like an explanation: A justification ... for an act of pure evil.

The Shroud of Turin was determined to be a fraud by the Roman Catholic Church. That's good enough for me. Funny thing about the site you linked to ... not a single mention of the scientific examination of the cloth. But if you're interested I have a waffle in my freezer that has the image of the Virgin Mary on it.
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/08/06 08:09 AM

If you even cared to look, you would see that there have been numerous scientific tests that have been carried out on the shroud. (Forensically tested, Carbon 14 dating, Chemical Analysis, UV photograph analysis, Photomicrograph Analysis - all shown on website), the shroud has been heavily scrutinized.
A bungle that scientists made was testing only a small fragment of the shroud-- seemed like rushed job to me (How conclusive can you get?). What methodology did they use? Did you know that they reasessed the shroud. But rather than just looking at a single piece they tested several other pieces of the shroud, and found that the shroud is much older- in fact just around AD.

(This is a lesson for science-
It is just one of many examples of how scientists can make mistakes - By using flawed techniques, looking at one part, but failing to see the whole)---Your narrow mind is mind boggling son! (OPEN YOUR EYES AND MIND- You only see half-the truth)

I ask you this question, and this alone. Can you explain to me WHY disease started? Not HOW? but WHY? What was the root cause? Please give me a valid explanation? If I get one I will no longer post any further comments on this online forum.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/08/06 06:04 PM

Zork wrote:
"all shown on website"

Let me remind you that the web site you referenced is shroudstory.com.

What lack of critical thinking skills would make you think that a website run be religious zealots and dedicated to promoting the shroud would be a reliable source of information?

Do you get your news about politics from Karl Rove? Do you get your nutrition new from the fine people that make Twinkies?
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/09/06 11:22 PM

[Inappropriate content deleted]

Philege, if you can't keep a calm, rational outlook and actually discuss Science, I will have to bar you from the Forum. Your histrionics and cursing are not appropriate and I have edited three of your messages tonight. Please do heed my warning.

"Amaranth"
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/09/06 11:29 PM

If he existed ... if he could ... he would.

But you might wish to apply some critical thinking skills before you condemning me to burn at the stake.

If your god exists then:

1. Your god created satan
2. Your god created me in his image
3. Your god gave me the critical thinking skills by which I point out that he is evil incarnate
4. Your god created the mistakes and bungling I point to such as errors in DNA coding
5. Your god created polio, anthrax, smallpox, malaria, and childhood leukemia
6. Your god killed every person on this planet except the members of one family including newborn innocent children
7. Your god killed every first-born male in an entire country including newborn innocent children
8. Your god's church has been responsible for genocide

Which all makes you, by your own description, a sycophant toadying up to the greatest evil in the entire universe and proclaiming that you think all of the above are the kinds of behaviour one would expect from a loving father. No doubt more deadly diseases to render painful death to children would be a sign of even more love in your book.

Let me demonstrate to you the incredible level of gross hypocrisy your god possesses and I will do so with his own words:

"Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life (Genesis 3:14)"

Let me get this straight ... what the serpent did?
Who made the serpent?
Who put the serpent in the garden?
Who made the tree?
Who made two flawed humans?
Who, while claiming to be perfect, didn't know the outcome in advance or knew and didn't intervene?
And finally ...
Who demonstrated a total lack of compassion and forgiveness toward all?

And the correct answer is:
Your god.

But there is, of course, a simple solution. He could do unto himself what he has done so many times to others. And if he did I would gladly turn the other cheek.

PS: Philege: You have a bit of a problem here. Either:

1. Your lord is incapable of rebuking satan or me or anyone or anything else
or
2. Your lord is pleased as punch that we are pointing out that he is a genocidal maniac with an open affection for pain and blood.

Given that all of your prayers with respect to me go unanswered it seems the one being rebuked ... is you. Now there's something to think on while falling asleep tonight.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/09/06 11:42 PM

Philege wrote:
"D. A. Morgan, you created these diseases with your filthy hatred of God."

Amazing how powerful I am. Powerful enough to create life. Powerful enough to pee up god's pantsleg. He may be able to flood the planet but he can't lay a finger on me. Damn I'm good.

If your god has compassion ... why didn't he let the snake keep his legs and give Adam and Eve a second chance? Got yah!
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/09/06 11:47 PM

Philege wrote:
"Blacknad and you other crusaders, how can you allow this man to mock your Lord and you say nothing, it is worse than giving the other cheek. Let us rebuke the works of the evil one."

Gosh this is fun. You and Osama bin Laden could really be great friends.

Both of you feel compelled to do for god what he is incapable of doing for himself. Once capable of drowning an entire planet for 40 days. Now incapable of giving me a sore finger.

Why don't you get on your knees tonight by the side of your bed, close your eyes, lift your head to heaven, and ask him why he is letting a one year old infant at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center die? I'll check over the weekend and see how compassionate he is.

Kid lives ... I'll apologize. Kid dies ... you apologize. Fair is fair.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/10/06 09:53 PM

posted 09 February, 2006 18:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Inappropriate content deleted]

Philege, if you can't keep a calm, rational outlook and actually discuss Science, I will have to bar you from the Forum. Your histrionics and cursing are not appropriate and I have edited three of your messages tonight. Please do heed my warning.

"Amaranth"
Hi Amaranth,

It seems that you still show unfairness. You may think that what I write is insulting but what about what Dan has written about our God. He is sacred to us. He can also give a rational decent argument without being so offensive and then ofcourse I would be happy to give my opinions, scientific or otherwise. But I think you also have to rein in D. A. Morgan when he crosses the line of decency in his filthy remarks.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/10/06 10:28 PM

Calm yourself, Philege. For your own good.

"Amaranth"
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/10/06 10:40 PM

Why don't you get on your knees tonight by the side of your bed, close your eyes, lift your head to heaven, and ask him why he is letting a one year old infant at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center die? I'll check over the weekend and see how compassionate he is.

Give me the name of this child and the precise location, and I challenge you too! He will recover.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 12:42 AM

Philege wrote:
"You may think that what I write is insulting but what about what Dan has written about our God."

I didn't insult your god ... I repeated is very own statements about himself directly from his autobiography. Did he or did he not claim to have created the universe and everything in it? Did he or did he not claim to be the cause of the flood of Noah? Did he or did he not claim to have killed every first born male in Egypt at the time of the Exodus? If the truth is insulting would you prefer your god be honored by lies?

Oh and check out the reaction of Moslems to Danish cartoons. Like I said ... you and bin Laden would likely make great friends.

Philege wrote:
"Yes, God created satan. But He created him perfect"

So your definition of perfection in creation is satan. Congratulations are in complete agreement. That which is perfect can not become otherwise ... because were it to do so, based on its original perfection ... it must have been the creator's plan. You just make this so much fun.

Philege wrote:
"God gave you like satan your master a free will to choose."

Thus my doing this is by god's design. Who are you to question how we use the gift? Who are you to question god's design? What impudence? What egotism? What sacriledge.

Philege wrote:
nothing in response to the statement by me:
"Your god created polio, anthrax, smallpox, malaria, and childhood leukemia"

Why? What is it about this simple statement of fact that sends you running to hide under the covers? It is the truth and you know it. You can not claim to have created the universe and deny creating smallpox can you.

My use of the lower-case 'g' rather than 'G' is by design and has nothing to do with your fantasy invisible purple rhinoceros. Face the questions with integrity if you can.

And if you wish to hide under the hypcrosy that the case of a 'g' or 'G' makes a difference and claim satan as a god, not God, then you are in violation of the tenants of your own faith. I thought lying was a sin.

Philege wrote:
"Why did God drown the entire world. Read the scriptures. Man had become so wicked that if you had been alive at that time you would have been raped and rendered eternally pigeon toed."

Oh I've read the scripture. In fact I've read the Latin Volgate in its original which I doubt you could even consider. But you are playing games and I'm going to call you on it.

Newborn children were drowned. Were they wicked? One year olds were drowned too. Were they wicked? Dogs, cats, birds, horses, all drowned. Were they wicked too? Was drowning them the ONLY solution or just the one that involved pain and suffering and thus was most appealing to your GOD?

Go ahead ... pray to your GOD ... pray him give me a papercut ... pray he turn me into a glowing cinder ... I challenge your GOD to do anything.

Drowned us because we were wicked ... sorry I'm not ready to let that go. Drowned everyone because they were wicked and sat on his furry butt during the holocaust, during the Turkish genocide, during the Cambodian genocide. What a bloody minded hypocrite you worship.

Philege wrote:
"Give me the name of this child and the precise location, and I challenge you too! He will recover."

If your GOD is truly GOD he can bloody well figure it out for himself. Let him figure out which specific child I am referring to or even better let him actually do something decent and cure them all. What a concept. Actually do something helpful rather than hurtful. Bring comfort to a dying child rather than pain. Like I said ... you pray your heart out. I'll be in The Hutch Sunday and will report back on your success or failure.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 01:15 AM

"Blacknad and you other crusaders, how can you allow this man to mock your Lord and you say nothing, it is worse than giving the other cheek. Let us rebuke the works of the evil one."


Philege,

I have had a good constructive discussion with Dan and have learnt to respect him. I agree with many of his points, but not all. I have realised that it all depends upon your starting point - and everything flows from there. We have different paradigms and we therefore interpret information in different ways.

My faith in God is intact and very strong, I have experienced too much of the supernatural - before I came to Christ my life was screwed and I was heavily into witchcraft - I have seen things that leave me in no doubt that 'what we can see is not all there is'.

But I have also decided that SAGG was becoming a bit of an obsession and I need to spend more time engaging in life. So I will not spend so much time defending my beliefs and I am content to know that God is capable of looking after himself. So I just read and learn from SAGG now, there are some excellent current threads on the science board.

Christianity is attacked all over the net, do you want to have a full time occupation of posting in the myriad forums?

And I'm sorry to say that I find your method of defending God to be offensive. You descend to insult, threats and the ridiculous, (come on - how many times does Amaranth have to censor the contents of your posts?). Your challenge to pray for a cancer ridden child and your statement that he/she will be saved because God always answers your prayers sounds pretty much out of line with 'You shall not test the Lord your God'. To me you sound mentally unstable and need a little help connecting with reality. I am sorry to say that to you - but I think it's true.

I seem to remember that you have a failsafe method of winning the lottery - how did that go?

Your answer to Dan's eight statements simply show that you just don't understand what's at the core of his arguments. You need to think more deeply about what he says.

Your answer to number one is theologically incorrect and infers some things that we just cannot know.

And your threat to rot Dan's finger makes me think that you might sympathise with the Muslims's who threaten death to cartoonists.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 04:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Philege:
I challenge you now! Dare me to pray to my God for your finger to rot on your hand and I will do so.
I know my prayers never go unanswered. So take up the gauntlet and I will definitely go down on my knees and pray for God to teach you a lesson once and for always. But be warned you may regret the final result.
As Moderator:
This thread is degenerating into threats by Philege against other members. If it does not cease I will take action. There is one thread to discuss god and this is not it.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 04:21 AM

Blacknad:

I must confess to developing respect for you too.

But I do wish to juxtapose two statements you just made:

1. I have realised that it all depends upon your starting point - and everything flows from there.

2. " before I came to Christ my life was screwed and I was heavily into witchcraft"

This is remarkably true ... another point of agreement. I look at these two statements and what jumps out to me is that you went from one false god to another. From yin to yang. From starboard to port. Never once stopping the balance point in the center. Does this make sense?

And blacknad wrote:
"I am content to know that God is capable of looking after himself."

Another great point of agreement. What strikes me as the grossest of all hypocrisies is humans, be they philege or bin Laden running around defending the creator of the universe from the insignificant statements of a single person. If my free thinking is a threat capable of unravelling the work of a god then that god is a fraud.

What I see in philege's comments is what I see in so many at the cancer treatment centers. People who loudly advertise their faith as a way of covering up the fact that deep in their hearts they are a bundle of fear. It is far harder to hide it all, and ignore facing that reality, when you are not looking down the barrel a gun or an iv bag full of chem agents.

I am hoping that philege comes, as you have done, to be able to get past the rhetoric and engage the sentient conscious thought processes. Stop just reacting with canned sound-bites. Perhaps. We shall see.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 04:26 AM

A reminder to all and sundry:

"Postings containing spam, those that are threatening or devoid of science will be deleted at the moderator's discretion."

If any more threats of ANY sort are made I will go to zero-tolerance mode and remove all such posts. persistence in threatening will result in loss of the privilege of posting here. You have the right to your own opinion, you do not have the right to make threats, mundane or supernatural. Period.

"Amaranth"
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 12:25 AM

Member Rated:
posted February 10, 2006 08:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Blacknad and you other crusaders, how can you allow this man to mock your Lord and you say nothing, it is worse than giving the other cheek. Let us rebuke the works of the evil one."


Philege,

I have had a good constructive discussion with Dan and have learnt to respect him. I agree with many of his points, but not all. I have realised that it all depends upon your starting point - and everything flows from there. We have different paradigms and we therefore interpret information in different ways.

My faith in God is intact and very strong, I have experienced too much of the supernatural - before I came to Christ my life was screwed and I was heavily into witchcraft - I have seen things that leave me in no doubt that 'what we can see is not all there is'.

But I have also decided that SAGG was becoming a bit of an obsession and I need to spend more time engaging in life. So I will not spend so much time defending my beliefs and I am content to know that God is capable of looking after himself. So I just read and learn from SAGG now, there are some excellent current threads on the science board.

Christianity is attacked all over the net, do you want to have a full time occupation of posting in the myriad forums?

And I'm sorry to say that I find your method of defending God to be offensive. You descend to insult, threats and the ridiculous, (come on - how many times does Amaranth have to censor the contents of your posts?). Your challenge to pray for a cancer ridden child and your statement that he/she will be saved because God always answers your prayers sounds pretty much out of line with 'You shall not test the Lord your God'. To me you sound mentally unstable and need a little help connecting with reality. I am sorry to say that to you - but I think it's true.

I seem to remember that you have a failsafe method of winning the lottery - how did that go?

Your answer to Dan's eight statements simply show that you just don't understand what's at the core of his arguments. You need to think more deeply about what he says.

Your answer to number one is theologically incorrect and infers some things that we just cannot know.

And your threat to rot Dan's finger makes me think that you might sympathise with the Muslims's who threaten death to cartoonists.

Blacknad.

[ February 10, 2006, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Blacknad ]

That's okay Blacknad, dance with the devil if you want. Thanks for saying I am mentally unstable, God bless you. I think a Christian who embrances homosexuality is mentally sick and unstable so don't take the speck out of my eye when you have more than a fat log in your eye As for Amaranth, you say I threatened Dan, however if you look closely at what he wrote, he dared me to ask God to make his finger bad, so I did not threaten him, I was prepared to prove him wrong.

As for D. A. Morgan
It seems your IQ has really begun to reverse, read what I said about the real cause of all the disease by the ruler of this earth before you claim I did not answer your questions. Frankly I don't care if Aramanth continues to unfairly give all that Dan writes freedom, but hen pecks
all that I write, the fact of the matter is anyone who defies my God will see my wrath in script. There is NO compromise and if you want to martyr me from your site then go ahead but I will not stand by like stupid Blacknad creeping up Dans poophole and allowing him to insult the Lord so openly. I dispise him for that. Get stuffed Blacknad.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 12:30 AM

I seem to remember that you have a failsafe method of winning the lottery - how did that go?

Oh by the way, I have won six numbers in the daily lottery for seven days in a row. If you want me to post my number daily for you I will certainly do so, just to prove a point. I do not lie!
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 05:10 AM

Philege wrote:
"I think a Christian who embrances homosexuality is mentally sick and unstable"

Well Philege if you wish to adhere strictly to the bible then lets get to it. When do you plan to start stoning adulterers. Because if you don't you are just advertising religious hypocrisy ... only wanting to enforce that which you agree with. Another strong point of similarity between you, the Taliban, and bin Laden. You guys would be the best of buddies. And, of course, you could all hate me with equal gusto.

Philege wrote:
"... the fact of the matter is anyone who defies my God will see my wrath in script."

Your god? Do you have the receipt from the purchase. Because it seems the batteries need to be replaced.

Philege wrote:
"...if you want to martyr me...."

Yep just like bin Laden. You too are so similar it is amazing. To fear-mongers hiding behind their religion to promote hatred and hypocrisy.

We are not insulting your lord. We are saying your personal interpretation is painfully in violation of all reasonable interpretations of that religion in the same way that Moslem extremists redefine their religion into a farse. And if your god does exist he certainly can not be smiliing about someone violating his most sacred principles on his behalf. If he wants to be defended let him get off his furry butt and do it himself.

Winning at gambling ... certainly doing the lords work. Going to the Fred Hutch tomorrow morning. Pray harder hypocrite.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 11:22 AM

Philege,

If anyone decides to insult God, it is their freedom to do so. I am not a self appointed guardian of the internet. I get angry at political correctness in its many forms and the thought policing that goes on today by the far left in Britain - (even though I'm left of centre, politically). I am not going to engage in trying to suppress people expressing themselves, by threats and taunts.

And as for sucking up to Dan - see it as you will, but his arguments carry some weight and he has caused me to examine what I believe more that anything else has - and his unbelief is not reactionary, it is deeply held and well thought out, but you have never engaged with him long enough to find out.

I have also never said I think that homosexuality is right. I do not, but you seem to have missed the point that Christ said he had come to fulfil the law. The law was based upon enmity and wrath. When the unfaithful woman was brought before Christ for stoning, what did he say? 'Only those without any wrong in them can stand in judgement of this woman's behaviour.' And then (with the implication that He had the right to stand in judgement), he forgave her, but told her to mend her ways.

The law showed us what things are like if we choose separation from God - Christ showed us what it is like to live under grace.

So I engage with gays as if there is no issue, but I'm prepared to be true to scripture and say I do not agree with their behaviour if I'm asked, just as I know that some aspects of my own behaviour aren?t right. I find it hateful that some Christians will go out of their way to offend, insult and damn someone based upon their sexual orientation or behaviour.

WHAT ABOUT LOVE?

Philege - "I despise him for that."

- Has your particular flavour of Christianity made you full of anger and judgement?

Philege ? ?Get stuffed Blacknad.?

- Again, is this where your Christianity brings you.

I challenge you to think about what Christ meant when he told us to love even our enemies. Christ DID judge and insult people, but surprisingly this behaviour was reserved exclusively for Religious leaders who oppressed their people. As a believer you have no grounds for dealing with anyone without tolerance and acceptance, whilst speaking what you perceive to be the truth (but humbly, knowing that it is your own fallible interpretation of matters that are deep and complex).

Regards,

Blacknad.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 12:23 PM

Blacknad - I humbly apologise for my rude remarks, which were said out of foolish anger, the new day and your posting has made me realise that I am not serving the interests of christianity by my actions. Thanks to some influence from you, I sometime ago re examined myself spiritually and found some elements lacking. So I began once again to attend church regularly and confession as well as regularly reading the scriptures. Funny enough I was once like D. A. Morgan, I could not see anything right about the bible. It took God to make me see the way. Yes his postings may seem rational in some respects but admittedly some of them are down right blasphemous. What I really should do is pray for God to work His way into Morgan's life. You are quite right and again I apologise for my moments of foolishness.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 12:39 PM

Winning at gambling ... certainly doing the lords work. Going to the Fred Hutch tomorrow morning. Pray harder hypocrite.

Playing the lottery which goes to a lot of good causes, and you don't know what I do with my winnings, maybe I donate them all to charity. If this would go one iota towards changing your attitude I would gladly stop gambling. The fact of the matter is we all sin in some form or another and no one person can stop doing wrong entirely. As for Fred Hutch, you refused to give a name for me, well I leave this in God's wonderful hands.

Your god? Do you have the receipt from the purchase. Because it seems the batteries need to be replaced.

My God because you compare my God to Bin Laden's
I do not own God, so what receipt are you writing about. Do not suppose that my God is Bin Laden's just because he claims so. My God introduced a law of love through His Son Jesus and I have never killed anyone. How can you compare me and my beliefs to someone like that. I now realise through Blacknad that it is a waste of time trying to convince someone like you to think differently. God in HIs own way, and on His own day will reveal himself to you, and like Paul you will do His work with vigour and power the opposite of your hateful thinking. I realise that reading your postings concerning God will start to influence me like they are influencing to Blacknad, therefore I will avoid reading them in future for they are inspired by the wicked one. Of this I have no doubt whatsoever. Goodbye servant of darkness!
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 02:19 PM

Philege wrote:
"My God because you compare my God to Bin Laden's"

Your GOD is bin Laden's. One and the same. The GOD of Abraham to you ... Ibrahim to bin Laden. Creator of the same Garden of Eden. Creator of the very same Adam to both of you. Creator of Satan to you, Iblis to him. Creator of the very same Jesus to you ... Isa to the Quranic writers. You are two peas from the same pod. You are believers in the exact same religion. The differences are as insignificant. Two dogs from the same litter.

Philege wrote:
"My God introduced a law of love through His Son Jesus"

Please correct me if I missed something here but isn't he the same GOD that inspired the following two passages?

"And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire."
Ezekiel 23:47

I can definitely feel the love. The love that brought us smallpox, polio, malaria, leukemia. I think we could all use a little less of that type of loving but thank you for trying to humanize the monster.

How about another test of your integrity? Read the following passage and tell me its source:
"Who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself?"

It is cited in the Hamas Charter (Article 27).

The religion of Abraham ... that's your religion.

Philege wrote:
"your postings concerning God will start to influence me like they are influencing to Blacknad, therefore I will avoid reading them in future for they are inspired by the wicked one."

Did you come here to SAGG to preach or to learn? To hide your head in the sands of ignorance rather than open your mind to new ideas? Seems to me you came to the wrong place.

So please do go confess your sins ... as you have many ... most obviously pride. I, on the other hand, wish to thank Kate and Rose and Rusty for cleaning the cage and making this possible.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 03:09 PM

Member Rated:
posted 12 February, 2006 09:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philege wrote:
"My God because you compare my God to Bin Laden's"

Your GOD is bin Laden's. One and the same. The GOD of Abraham to you ... Ibrahim to bin Laden. Creator of the same Garden of Eden. Creator of the very same Adam to both of you. Creator of Satan to you, Iblis to him. Creator of the very same Jesus to you ... Isa to the Quranic writers. You are two peas from the same pod. You are believers in the exact same religion. The differences are as insignificant. Two dogs from the same litter.

If one reads the Koran one can see that there is something very different between it and the Bible. If you read the story of Joseph in the Koran, it tells you that the other women asked Pharoah's wife 'To swear by Allah' now we all know that the Egyptians at that time believed in Ra the Sun God and Isis etc, so one can see an obvious fabrication within the Koran. One can find many such inconsistencies with our scriptures that make me seriously doubt whether the God the claim to worship is one and the same as ours.

Also Mohammed cannot even be compared with Jesus, because he was a sinner and an ordinary man who married and for many years was a heathen. Funny enough the Moslems claim that Mohammed confirmed the Gospel was true and yet they despise we who uphold it. I would describe Islam as the Revelation description of "Looked like a lamb but spoke as a dragon." So Mr. Morgan Islam is not one dot or one iota the same as Christianity in my estimation at least. Sorry I can't confirm where your note comes from I don't have a photgraphic memory.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 07:12 PM

Philege wrote:
"If one reads the Koran one can see that there is something very different between it and the Bible."

Yep ... one was written in one language the other in another language. Both are celebrations of one and the same GOD and a religion originating with one and the same man. You want to claim your version is more correct than theirs have at it. GOD made far more of them than he did you and your kind. And certainly GOD has shown them favor as he instructed all to be fruitful and multiply and they've done one heck of a good job of following the rule.

Philege also wrote:
"Also Mohammed cannot even be compared with Jesus, because he was a sinner and an ordinary man who married and for many years was a heathen."

And your source for this information is? Provide me with verifiable information. Sources that can be verified. Not authorless books written in a language you can not read and intentionally mistranslated repeatedly. Give me facts or admit you are just making it all up.

Then Philege wrote:
"Oh so you thought I was leaving, I meant that I would not read any more of your tripe"

But you didn't. You lied. Lying is a sin. You are a sinner. Go confess you sins.

Then Philege wrote:
"Don't forget that God introduced a New Covenant through His Son Jesus. Above relates to the Old covenant."

New Covenant? You mean what he did before was wrong? He made a mistake? He was at one time an evil bloodthirsty monster but he got into a 12 step program and reformed?

How can a perfect deity change its mind except to admit its lack of perfection?

You'd think a real GOD would have other than fools for minions.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 11:19 PM

Philege also wrote:
"Also Mohammed cannot even be compared with Jesus, because he was a sinner and an ordinary man who married and for many years was a heathen."

Ask any Moslem, or purchase the Koran, the whole story is in there. Use your blinking internet, type Mohamed in G-O-O-G-L-E or read Rushdies 'Satanic Verses'
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 11:21 PM

Then Philege wrote:
"Oh so you thought I was leaving, I meant that I would not read any more of your tripe"

But you didn't. You lied. Lying is a sin. You are a sinner. Go confess you sins.

I have the free will to change my mind as I see fit. You are not my fairy God father to tell me what I can or cannot do. Besides I was responding to what you wrote, you did ask some questions didn't you? Yes I am a sinner, a repentant one.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 11:23 PM

New Covenant? You mean what he did before was wrong? He made a mistake? He was at one time an evil bloodthirsty monster but he got into a 12 step program and reformed?

No [content deleted], the first covenant was only for the Jews, the second covenant is for every one, unfortunately even for you.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/13/06 01:21 AM

Philege:
I have read Rushdie but I have my own opinion. Do you have one or am I talking to a parrot?

Philege wrote:
"You are not my fairy God father to tell me what I can or cannot do."

Come now ... just a few days ago you told me I was powerful enough to have personally created smallpox. Then you were begging others to join your hate-filled tirade to condemn me in the name of GOD. You can't have it both ways. While I am not your fairy GOD father I am the invisible purple rhinoceros.

Philege wrote:
"the first covenant was only for the Jews, the second covenant is for every one, unfortunately even for you."

Can someone get Philege a synapse or two. You mean GOD had one set of rules for thousands of years for Jews and woke up one morning and decided to create another set of conflicting rules for Indians, Azeris, Turks, and Afrikaaners? Wow!

Did he or did he not slaughter everyone on the planet including newborn infants?

Did he or did he not create smallpox?

Your hypocrisy is seemingly boundless?
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/13/06 09:10 PM

Can someone get Philege a synapse or two. You mean GOD had one set of rules for thousands of years for Jews and woke up one morning and decided to create another set of conflicting rules for Indians, Azeris, Turks, and Afrikaaners? Wow!

Okay Mr.purple rhinoceros, I'll explain a thing or two. The Jews were chosen by God to be rulers of this earth. There was a condition set to this. If the Jews followed God's laws given through Moses they would inherit the kingdom, however if they did not they would lose everything which would then be given to others. Also don't forget there are many other false religions now don't pretend you know that your master 'Uncle Lucy'is the one who set these up to confuse mankind not God. God is wonderful for me, I don't know about you who abides in darkness. Everytime you say something bad about my God my faith multiplies hundredfold. In fact I am glad to have been part of this forum, because it has helped my spirituality to grom immensely. Thanks for tempering my faith Mr. Morgan, please keep it up, its fantastic. Alleluiah!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/13/06 09:24 PM

Did he or did he not slaughter everyone on the planet including newborn infants?

Did he or did he not create smallpox?

Your hypocrisy is seemingly boundless?

Who are we to question God's judgement. He sent His angels to see who was worthy to survive in a wicked and evil society. (Remember the pigeon toes)and He was prepared to spare mankind if a certain number could be found. The occupiers of the earth at that time were no ordinary men. The were mixtures of the fallen angels and mankind. Therefore their wickedness was incalculable. That is why they were destroyed. You have no right to question God's actions since you are His creation, He can do whatever He wants with you, for you totally belong to him.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/13/06 11:09 PM

You really are trying to become the poster child for willfull ignorance aren't you.

You actually wrote:
"Ask any Moslem, or purchase the Koran, the whole story is in there. Use your blinking internet, type Mohamed in G-O-O-G-L-E or read Rushdies 'Satanic Verses'"

When, in fact, you have been so lazy as to never do any of them. I have read Rushdie. I have read the Qran, though not in Arabic, and I have rarely met a person lazier or more willfully ignorant than you that wasn't addicted to heroin or crack cocaine.

You've read some commentary on the book. Wonderful. And the people you work with likely know as much about their religion as you do about yours. Got your opinions of your authorless book from what someone else told you it meant too.

But the prize comment is:
"but then we are discouraged from reading material which would question our faith"

No doubt about it. You definitely do not want to open your mind to the possibility that there are other interpretations of anything. Your GOD is so weak and shallow that reading a book might turn you into a godless heathen. Considering that your source of information might be flawed is a one-way ticket straight to H, E, Double-Toothpicks. Keep the blinders on. Only listen to what we tell you. We are right and they are wrong. We are good and they are bad. We are white and they are black. Don't let anything get close enough to the brainwashing ... it might not hold. We are superior and know everything and everyone that disagrees with us is on satan's payroll with healthcare and full retirement benefits.

Do you belong to a church or a cult? Don't bother responding. The question was purely rhetorical.

BTW: Things are not going well at the Fred Hutch. Pray harder. Your GOD is ignoring you and a small child is dying a very painful death. If your faith can't save the life of an infant with cancer ... what can it do? Sorry to intrude with reality. Repeat after me la la la la la I'm not listening la la la la la.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 01:54 AM

Philege wrote:
"Well I told you that I need the name of the child in order for my prayers to work and you would not supply them. So blame yourself."

Your arrogance and hypocrisy rise to a new level. Your GOD is so impotent he needs a name? Would a photograph help? How about a copy of the birth certificate and the father's cell phone number. But the classic: "Blame yourself."

Excuse me but I didn't create cancer: Your GOD did.
Excuse me but I didn't give the child the cancer: Your GOD did.
Excuse me but I'm not the one claiming to be the most powerful force in the universe: Your GOD did.
Excuse me but I'm not the one causing the painful death of an innocent young child: Your GOD is!

Then Philege wrote:
"I guess you were scared that the truth might be revealed to you!"

The only thing that scares me is people that are brainwashed. You sir are truly frightening. It is your kind that starts and participates in holy wars. It is your kind that burns people at the stake. It is your kind that is filled with intolerance and hatred. And when it comes to fear ... read what you've written about yourself ... you are afraid to read Rushdie.

Then Philege demonstrated the power of Jesus Christ running through his veins when he wrote:
"Catch a crap Morgan!" No commentary is required here methinks. Back to the confessional.

Philege wrote:
"Faith baby, that's all I need!"

Remember that the next time you get an infection. Remember that the next time you are thinking about an appointment at the dentist. Remember that the next time you flip a light switch or look at a computer or drink uncontaminated water. The only thing reaching the level of heaven in your presence is the height of the hypocrisy.

You a Catholic? Not a chance. The Catholic church does not discourage its followers from reading books. The Catholic church does not teach that one should be wilfully ignorant. The Catholic church does not sanction the kind of hatred and vitriol that fills your heart.

Of course along with the Inquisition I guess there is one other little insult to human intelligence the Catholic church has wrought. The declaration by a pope that Capybara is a fish.

For those that don't know about this sick little joke: http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/behavior/Spring2002/Willoughby/other.html
it does go to show the fact that Philege apparently is honoring a long history of hypcrisy.

I think I'd like you more if you were an alcoholic. For alcoholics there are 12 step programs. People like you hiding behind the cassocks of the church remind me of the child abusers too who claimed to be good Catholics.

Perhaps though I should print what you've posted here at SAGG and show it to the priest at our local church. I'm sure he'd be most amused at what you have done in the church's name.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 03:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Philege:
...I do not hate you Mr. Morgan, but I hate the vile filth which oozes from the depths of your soul. Your blasphemous rants cannot go unchecked. While other's may be cowards in defending the faith, I will strive to defend the faith against, spiritual verminous taunts like the ones emitted from you. You really don't know who you are dealing with....
As Moderator,
May I remind you that this is a Science forum. This ranting has nothing to do with Science. If all you can do is rant and rave and post thinly veiled threats like this I will have to take action.

This is a place for civil discussion of Science, not religion. Please observe the rules of the Forum and stick to Science and Science-related subjects.

Amaranth
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 05:12 AM

Well done. Thank you.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 07:48 PM

Philege - "In fact I am glad to have been part of this forum, because it has helped my spirituality to grom immensely."

- Unfortunately the same cannot be said for your humility, gentleness of spirit, and sense of proportion.

I sometimes feel slighted by Dan's comments, but at least they are consistent with what he believes. The same cannot be said of your profanities, insults and arrogant gloating and posturing. These are certainly not consistent with the scriptural teachings I know.

Maybe you read it differently and I have missed something. If you can point me to the verse that tells you to 'verbally beat people until they agree with you' I would be grateful. Because until then I will continue to feel that you do Christianity a bigger disservice than Dan ever can.

People on this website have just about had a bellyful of ignorant Christians throwing their weight around.

Oh, and E = mc^2 - thought I'd better get some science in somewhere.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 09:45 PM

I think I'd like you more if you were an alcoholic. For alcoholics there are 12 step programs. People like you hiding behind the cassocks of the church remind me of the child abusers too who claimed to be good Catholics.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 09:53 PM

Oh, and E = mc^2 - thought I'd better get some science in somewhere. What a load!


I sometimes feel slighted by Dan's comments, but at least they are consistent with what he believes. The same cannot be said of your profanities, insults and arrogant gloating and posturing. These are certainly not consistent with the scriptural teachings I know.

Yes Blacknad,

It's funny that you give no response when I say something good, like when I apologised to you, you would not accpet my apology, so don't go pointing your crooked finger at me acting like you are a perfect christian. Your view on homosexuality and the like show me what sort of christian you are. I told you about removing the fat log from your eye before you start taking out the smote from my eye.

As for Aramanth, how come you never comment on D. A. Morgan's persistent insults which are also not science related. How am I threatening Dan by telling him that the God he is insulting is one he does not know whom he is dealing with.

Anyway for something science related, even intelligent Einstein at least beleived in God.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:17 PM

You a Catholic? Not a chance. The Catholic church does not discourage its followers from reading books. The Catholic church does not teach that one should be wilfully ignorant. The Catholic church does not sanction the kind of hatred and vitriol that fills your heart.

Ask you local priest if it's alright to read Jehovah's Witness Material, you'll see what I mean.

I think I'd like you more if you were an alcoholic. For alcoholics there are 12 step programs. People like you hiding behind the cassocks of the church remind me of the child abusers too who claimed to be good Catholics.

Did I say I was a good Catholic, ofcourse according to you I am a bad Catholic, well you are a very bad and wicked atheist, the most vile I have encountered, not an ounce of decency and respect for that which you don't understand. And surprisingly you get support from a warped christian. I repeat that I do not hate you as a person, but I hate what you write especially about God. And I will never fail to defend Him on a forum such as this. My only regret is that I let my anger forsake my aims and I fail by writing what I should not. For that I am trully sorry.

Anyway here is a little story for you.

There was once an athieistic professor at Harvard university, who was arguing with a christian student about the existence of God. He then took a new piece of chalk and said to his students. "To prove there no God, I am going to drop this piece of chalk on the floor, and if it does not break I will believe that God exists." The christian student then asked the professor if he could first pray before he dropped the chalk. "Be my guest! Pray all day if you want." The student went on his knees and prayed, " Heavenly Father, Please show this man that you do trully exist, not for my sake but for his sake." After the student finished praying The professor let the piece of chalk go, at that precise moment a small wind blew against the professor's gown. It cause the gown to flip outwards and catch the chalk, cushioning it's fall and making it roll harmlessly on to the floor, not a speck or flake of chalk was released. The professor was shocked and awed and immediately went on his knees to acknowledge and worship God. Howzat! Mr. Morgan Sir!
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:20 PM

The Catholic church does not sanction the kind of hatred and vitriol that fills your heart.

Let the Catholic Church read what you are writing about God and I am sure they would wish the Inquisition was still around to deal with you.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:29 PM

Philege,

I find it incredible that you define a Christian by his or her view on gays. Classing gays as mentally sick and demonic is not a part of any Christian creed that I have encountered.

I have not challenged your Christian status, just your behaviour. But I will leave you to it, as you're correct - on reflection, I am being holier-than-thou.

And your right, Einstein did believe in God, and had special regard for Christ...

This is clearly reflected in an interview which Einstein later in life gave to an American magazine, The Saturday Evening Post, in 1929:

"To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?"

"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."

"Have you read Emil Ludwig's book on Jesus?"

"Emil Ludwig's Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot."

"You accept the historical Jesus?"

"Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." 7

In view of this interview it is understandable that Einstein is reported to have said that Christ Jesus was the greatest of all Jews.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:30 PM

I think I'd like you more if you were an alcoholic. For alcoholics there are 12 step programs. People like you hiding behind the cassocks of the church remind me of the child abusers too who claimed to be good Catholics.

Are you saying that there are no atheist child abusers. I am certain that these far outnumber Catholic ones. There is no area of society where one does not find child abusers. This by the way comes again from the wicked one.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:35 PM

I find it incredible that you define a Christian by his or her view on gays. Classing gays as mentally sick and demonic is not a part of any Christian creed that I have encountered

Of this I am wrong to judge, humble apologies!
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:50 PM

Apology accepted wink

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 11:09 PM

Philege wrote:
"As for Aramanth, how come you never comment on D. A. Morgan's persistent insults which are also not science related."

Actually my comments are science related. Science, at its essence, is about the scientific method. About things that are verifiable and repeatable. I offer commentary that is verifiable and repeatable and do so to clearly demonstrate the distinction between science and people that throw around four letter words and vague promises from authorless books. Hope that helps.

Philege wrote:
"How am I threatening Dan by telling him that the God he is insulting is one he does not know whom he is dealing with."

Amazing. Just a few column inches later you wrote:
"Let the Catholic Church read what you are writing about God and I am sure they would wish the Inquisition was still around to deal with you."

And you don't see that as a threat? Have you gone off your medication? The Roman Catholic church has apologized for it and has been deeply saddened and embarrased by it ... and you haven't got a clue.

Philege wrote:
"I repeat that I do not hate you as a person, but I hate what you write especially about God."

Hate is hate is hate. You seemingly are consumed by it. Draw a line with a pencil if you wish ... but I expect to be reading about you in the newspaper given your inability to control yourself.

Philege wrote:
"Are you saying that there are no atheist child abusers. I am certain that these far outnumber Catholic ones."

Actually this is not true. Studies conducted by the Catholic church and released as part of court cases indicated that the level of abuse by priests was significantly higher than that in the general public. But then you probably wouldn't know about it as the study wasn't sanctioned reading.

Bladnad ... do you know Philege personally or are you just responding to what is posted here? I have taken a copy of Philege's postings to the priest at St. Monica's here where I live and he was, quite frankly, shocked that any catholic would have, or could have, written this vitriol. Not just the parts for which he apologizes above but his wholesale misrepresentations of church doctrine. If you know him ... you might want to have a talk with him about asking for help.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/15/06 10:53 PM

Bladnad ... do you know Philege personally or are you just responding to what is posted here? I have taken a copy of Philege's postings to the priest at St. Monica's here where I live and he was, quite frankly, shocked that any catholic would have, or could have, written this vitriol. Not just the parts for which he apologizes above but his wholesale misrepresentations of church doctrine. If you know him ... you might want to have a talk with him about asking for help.

What lies, and did you tell the priest what you wrote, and did he smile about it. If he did then he is a funny priest, especially after you accused his kind of being the worst child abusers. Also what help do I need? I thought you don't believe in God? Did you tell the priest why I was enraged by your foul, filthy verminous,vile and blasphemous remarks about God. I am sure that if you did he would recommend that you need help, not me. Sincerely Morgan, you don't have to try to get me excommunicated by reporting me. Please give me the address of this priest so I can send a full report about the bad, wicked, satanical remarks you made about his God. That is fair isn't it after all you squealled about me don't you think that a little squeal about you is all in order. Typical of satan's agent trying to influence poor Blacknad who actually influenced me to turn to God more to agree with his horrid opinions. Blacknad is an intelligent and good writer. Its's a pleasure to read his well balanced arguments. It's a pity he lends you his ears, or is it eyes however I realise that this is because he is a good christian from whom I can learn a lot. Actually Morgan you are a hypocrite, because you actually went to the priest, someone you believe is wasting his time serving God after all you wrote. You are a worse hypocrite than I'll ever be, shame on you.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/15/06 11:07 PM

Actually this is not true. Studies conducted by the Catholic church and released as part of court cases indicated that the level of abuse by priests was significantly higher than that in the general public. But then you probably wouldn't know about it as the study wasn't sanctioned reading.

Another bunch of fibs, recently the Jehovahs Witnesses had a terrible scandal involving child abuse which made the Catholics look like saints, what about the Mormon Church, one cannot count the number of child abuses which took place within that church from it's inception. Come now Morgan don't think only you know everything. Read the newspapers, almost everyday atheistic abusers are caught. Much much more than the Catholics, your story about a Catholic report is rubbish, yes there have been a few bad priests, but then there were also many good ones. I grew up in a Catholic orphange and can tell you that none of the children were abused as far as I can remember.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/15/06 11:12 PM

Hate is hate is hate. You seemingly are consumed by it. Draw a line with a pencil if you wish ... but I expect to be reading about you in the newspaper given your inability to control yourself.
Now what is this suppose to mean, would you go that far Mr. Morgan.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 03:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Philege:

Another bunch of fibs, recently the Jehovahs Witnesses had a terrible scandal involving child abuse which made the Catholics look like saints, what about the Mormon Church, one cannot count the number of child abuses which took place within that church from it's inception. ...
Do you have any references to back up these contentions, or are you just blowing out? Please post any references you have to these statements as I know from prior experience you tend to overstate your position rather egregiously.
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:37 PM

Just to back up philege, check out these sites


pressbox.co.uk/detailed/Society/Jehovah_Witnesses_Child_Abuse_Scandal... - 11k
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/07/06 07:24 AM

You must be thinking of a different God. Who said that God had to intervene in everything.
What would be the point of that?
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/07/06 08:55 AM

There is an interesting website on the shroud of Turin (Believed to be the buriel cloth of christ) for whoever is interested.

http://www.shroudstory.com/
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/07/06 05:56 PM

Zork wrote:
"Who said that God had to intervene in everything."

Zork ... find a single statement I made that indicates I would want god, were such an entity to exist ... to intervene.

That theoretical god created smallpox, malaria, TB, leukemia, polio, diptheria, AIDS, .... I don't want intervention. I'd like an explanation: A justification ... for an act of pure evil.

The Shroud of Turin was determined to be a fraud by the Roman Catholic Church. That's good enough for me. Funny thing about the site you linked to ... not a single mention of the scientific examination of the cloth. But if you're interested I have a waffle in my freezer that has the image of the Virgin Mary on it.
Posted by: ZORK

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/08/06 08:09 AM

If you even cared to look, you would see that there have been numerous scientific tests that have been carried out on the shroud. (Forensically tested, Carbon 14 dating, Chemical Analysis, UV photograph analysis, Photomicrograph Analysis - all shown on website), the shroud has been heavily scrutinized.
A bungle that scientists made was testing only a small fragment of the shroud-- seemed like rushed job to me (How conclusive can you get?). What methodology did they use? Did you know that they reasessed the shroud. But rather than just looking at a single piece they tested several other pieces of the shroud, and found that the shroud is much older- in fact just around AD.

(This is a lesson for science-
It is just one of many examples of how scientists can make mistakes - By using flawed techniques, looking at one part, but failing to see the whole)---Your narrow mind is mind boggling son! (OPEN YOUR EYES AND MIND- You only see half-the truth)

I ask you this question, and this alone. Can you explain to me WHY disease started? Not HOW? but WHY? What was the root cause? Please give me a valid explanation? If I get one I will no longer post any further comments on this online forum.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/08/06 06:04 PM

Zork wrote:
"all shown on website"

Let me remind you that the web site you referenced is shroudstory.com.

What lack of critical thinking skills would make you think that a website run be religious zealots and dedicated to promoting the shroud would be a reliable source of information?

Do you get your news about politics from Karl Rove? Do you get your nutrition new from the fine people that make Twinkies?
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/09/06 11:22 PM

[Inappropriate content deleted]

Philege, if you can't keep a calm, rational outlook and actually discuss Science, I will have to bar you from the Forum. Your histrionics and cursing are not appropriate and I have edited three of your messages tonight. Please do heed my warning.

"Amaranth"
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/09/06 11:29 PM

If he existed ... if he could ... he would.

But you might wish to apply some critical thinking skills before you condemning me to burn at the stake.

If your god exists then:

1. Your god created satan
2. Your god created me in his image
3. Your god gave me the critical thinking skills by which I point out that he is evil incarnate
4. Your god created the mistakes and bungling I point to such as errors in DNA coding
5. Your god created polio, anthrax, smallpox, malaria, and childhood leukemia
6. Your god killed every person on this planet except the members of one family including newborn innocent children
7. Your god killed every first-born male in an entire country including newborn innocent children
8. Your god's church has been responsible for genocide

Which all makes you, by your own description, a sycophant toadying up to the greatest evil in the entire universe and proclaiming that you think all of the above are the kinds of behaviour one would expect from a loving father. No doubt more deadly diseases to render painful death to children would be a sign of even more love in your book.

Let me demonstrate to you the incredible level of gross hypocrisy your god possesses and I will do so with his own words:

"Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life (Genesis 3:14)"

Let me get this straight ... what the serpent did?
Who made the serpent?
Who put the serpent in the garden?
Who made the tree?
Who made two flawed humans?
Who, while claiming to be perfect, didn't know the outcome in advance or knew and didn't intervene?
And finally ...
Who demonstrated a total lack of compassion and forgiveness toward all?

And the correct answer is:
Your god.

But there is, of course, a simple solution. He could do unto himself what he has done so many times to others. And if he did I would gladly turn the other cheek.

PS: Philege: You have a bit of a problem here. Either:

1. Your lord is incapable of rebuking satan or me or anyone or anything else
or
2. Your lord is pleased as punch that we are pointing out that he is a genocidal maniac with an open affection for pain and blood.

Given that all of your prayers with respect to me go unanswered it seems the one being rebuked ... is you. Now there's something to think on while falling asleep tonight.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/09/06 11:42 PM

Philege wrote:
"D. A. Morgan, you created these diseases with your filthy hatred of God."

Amazing how powerful I am. Powerful enough to create life. Powerful enough to pee up god's pantsleg. He may be able to flood the planet but he can't lay a finger on me. Damn I'm good.

If your god has compassion ... why didn't he let the snake keep his legs and give Adam and Eve a second chance? Got yah!
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/09/06 11:47 PM

Philege wrote:
"Blacknad and you other crusaders, how can you allow this man to mock your Lord and you say nothing, it is worse than giving the other cheek. Let us rebuke the works of the evil one."

Gosh this is fun. You and Osama bin Laden could really be great friends.

Both of you feel compelled to do for god what he is incapable of doing for himself. Once capable of drowning an entire planet for 40 days. Now incapable of giving me a sore finger.

Why don't you get on your knees tonight by the side of your bed, close your eyes, lift your head to heaven, and ask him why he is letting a one year old infant at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center die? I'll check over the weekend and see how compassionate he is.

Kid lives ... I'll apologize. Kid dies ... you apologize. Fair is fair.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/10/06 09:53 PM

posted 09 February, 2006 18:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Inappropriate content deleted]

Philege, if you can't keep a calm, rational outlook and actually discuss Science, I will have to bar you from the Forum. Your histrionics and cursing are not appropriate and I have edited three of your messages tonight. Please do heed my warning.

"Amaranth"
Hi Amaranth,

It seems that you still show unfairness. You may think that what I write is insulting but what about what Dan has written about our God. He is sacred to us. He can also give a rational decent argument without being so offensive and then ofcourse I would be happy to give my opinions, scientific or otherwise. But I think you also have to rein in D. A. Morgan when he crosses the line of decency in his filthy remarks.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/10/06 10:28 PM

Calm yourself, Philege. For your own good.

"Amaranth"
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/10/06 10:40 PM

Why don't you get on your knees tonight by the side of your bed, close your eyes, lift your head to heaven, and ask him why he is letting a one year old infant at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center die? I'll check over the weekend and see how compassionate he is.

Give me the name of this child and the precise location, and I challenge you too! He will recover.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 12:42 AM

Philege wrote:
"You may think that what I write is insulting but what about what Dan has written about our God."

I didn't insult your god ... I repeated is very own statements about himself directly from his autobiography. Did he or did he not claim to have created the universe and everything in it? Did he or did he not claim to be the cause of the flood of Noah? Did he or did he not claim to have killed every first born male in Egypt at the time of the Exodus? If the truth is insulting would you prefer your god be honored by lies?

Oh and check out the reaction of Moslems to Danish cartoons. Like I said ... you and bin Laden would likely make great friends.

Philege wrote:
"Yes, God created satan. But He created him perfect"

So your definition of perfection in creation is satan. Congratulations are in complete agreement. That which is perfect can not become otherwise ... because were it to do so, based on its original perfection ... it must have been the creator's plan. You just make this so much fun.

Philege wrote:
"God gave you like satan your master a free will to choose."

Thus my doing this is by god's design. Who are you to question how we use the gift? Who are you to question god's design? What impudence? What egotism? What sacriledge.

Philege wrote:
nothing in response to the statement by me:
"Your god created polio, anthrax, smallpox, malaria, and childhood leukemia"

Why? What is it about this simple statement of fact that sends you running to hide under the covers? It is the truth and you know it. You can not claim to have created the universe and deny creating smallpox can you.

My use of the lower-case 'g' rather than 'G' is by design and has nothing to do with your fantasy invisible purple rhinoceros. Face the questions with integrity if you can.

And if you wish to hide under the hypcrosy that the case of a 'g' or 'G' makes a difference and claim satan as a god, not God, then you are in violation of the tenants of your own faith. I thought lying was a sin.

Philege wrote:
"Why did God drown the entire world. Read the scriptures. Man had become so wicked that if you had been alive at that time you would have been raped and rendered eternally pigeon toed."

Oh I've read the scripture. In fact I've read the Latin Volgate in its original which I doubt you could even consider. But you are playing games and I'm going to call you on it.

Newborn children were drowned. Were they wicked? One year olds were drowned too. Were they wicked? Dogs, cats, birds, horses, all drowned. Were they wicked too? Was drowning them the ONLY solution or just the one that involved pain and suffering and thus was most appealing to your GOD?

Go ahead ... pray to your GOD ... pray him give me a papercut ... pray he turn me into a glowing cinder ... I challenge your GOD to do anything.

Drowned us because we were wicked ... sorry I'm not ready to let that go. Drowned everyone because they were wicked and sat on his furry butt during the holocaust, during the Turkish genocide, during the Cambodian genocide. What a bloody minded hypocrite you worship.

Philege wrote:
"Give me the name of this child and the precise location, and I challenge you too! He will recover."

If your GOD is truly GOD he can bloody well figure it out for himself. Let him figure out which specific child I am referring to or even better let him actually do something decent and cure them all. What a concept. Actually do something helpful rather than hurtful. Bring comfort to a dying child rather than pain. Like I said ... you pray your heart out. I'll be in The Hutch Sunday and will report back on your success or failure.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 01:15 AM

"Blacknad and you other crusaders, how can you allow this man to mock your Lord and you say nothing, it is worse than giving the other cheek. Let us rebuke the works of the evil one."


Philege,

I have had a good constructive discussion with Dan and have learnt to respect him. I agree with many of his points, but not all. I have realised that it all depends upon your starting point - and everything flows from there. We have different paradigms and we therefore interpret information in different ways.

My faith in God is intact and very strong, I have experienced too much of the supernatural - before I came to Christ my life was screwed and I was heavily into witchcraft - I have seen things that leave me in no doubt that 'what we can see is not all there is'.

But I have also decided that SAGG was becoming a bit of an obsession and I need to spend more time engaging in life. So I will not spend so much time defending my beliefs and I am content to know that God is capable of looking after himself. So I just read and learn from SAGG now, there are some excellent current threads on the science board.

Christianity is attacked all over the net, do you want to have a full time occupation of posting in the myriad forums?

And I'm sorry to say that I find your method of defending God to be offensive. You descend to insult, threats and the ridiculous, (come on - how many times does Amaranth have to censor the contents of your posts?). Your challenge to pray for a cancer ridden child and your statement that he/she will be saved because God always answers your prayers sounds pretty much out of line with 'You shall not test the Lord your God'. To me you sound mentally unstable and need a little help connecting with reality. I am sorry to say that to you - but I think it's true.

I seem to remember that you have a failsafe method of winning the lottery - how did that go?

Your answer to Dan's eight statements simply show that you just don't understand what's at the core of his arguments. You need to think more deeply about what he says.

Your answer to number one is theologically incorrect and infers some things that we just cannot know.

And your threat to rot Dan's finger makes me think that you might sympathise with the Muslims's who threaten death to cartoonists.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 04:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Philege:
I challenge you now! Dare me to pray to my God for your finger to rot on your hand and I will do so.
I know my prayers never go unanswered. So take up the gauntlet and I will definitely go down on my knees and pray for God to teach you a lesson once and for always. But be warned you may regret the final result.
As Moderator:
This thread is degenerating into threats by Philege against other members. If it does not cease I will take action. There is one thread to discuss god and this is not it.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 04:21 AM

Blacknad:

I must confess to developing respect for you too.

But I do wish to juxtapose two statements you just made:

1. I have realised that it all depends upon your starting point - and everything flows from there.

2. " before I came to Christ my life was screwed and I was heavily into witchcraft"

This is remarkably true ... another point of agreement. I look at these two statements and what jumps out to me is that you went from one false god to another. From yin to yang. From starboard to port. Never once stopping the balance point in the center. Does this make sense?

And blacknad wrote:
"I am content to know that God is capable of looking after himself."

Another great point of agreement. What strikes me as the grossest of all hypocrisies is humans, be they philege or bin Laden running around defending the creator of the universe from the insignificant statements of a single person. If my free thinking is a threat capable of unravelling the work of a god then that god is a fraud.

What I see in philege's comments is what I see in so many at the cancer treatment centers. People who loudly advertise their faith as a way of covering up the fact that deep in their hearts they are a bundle of fear. It is far harder to hide it all, and ignore facing that reality, when you are not looking down the barrel a gun or an iv bag full of chem agents.

I am hoping that philege comes, as you have done, to be able to get past the rhetoric and engage the sentient conscious thought processes. Stop just reacting with canned sound-bites. Perhaps. We shall see.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/11/06 04:26 AM

A reminder to all and sundry:

"Postings containing spam, those that are threatening or devoid of science will be deleted at the moderator's discretion."

If any more threats of ANY sort are made I will go to zero-tolerance mode and remove all such posts. persistence in threatening will result in loss of the privilege of posting here. You have the right to your own opinion, you do not have the right to make threats, mundane or supernatural. Period.

"Amaranth"
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 12:25 AM

Member Rated:
posted February 10, 2006 08:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Blacknad and you other crusaders, how can you allow this man to mock your Lord and you say nothing, it is worse than giving the other cheek. Let us rebuke the works of the evil one."


Philege,

I have had a good constructive discussion with Dan and have learnt to respect him. I agree with many of his points, but not all. I have realised that it all depends upon your starting point - and everything flows from there. We have different paradigms and we therefore interpret information in different ways.

My faith in God is intact and very strong, I have experienced too much of the supernatural - before I came to Christ my life was screwed and I was heavily into witchcraft - I have seen things that leave me in no doubt that 'what we can see is not all there is'.

But I have also decided that SAGG was becoming a bit of an obsession and I need to spend more time engaging in life. So I will not spend so much time defending my beliefs and I am content to know that God is capable of looking after himself. So I just read and learn from SAGG now, there are some excellent current threads on the science board.

Christianity is attacked all over the net, do you want to have a full time occupation of posting in the myriad forums?

And I'm sorry to say that I find your method of defending God to be offensive. You descend to insult, threats and the ridiculous, (come on - how many times does Amaranth have to censor the contents of your posts?). Your challenge to pray for a cancer ridden child and your statement that he/she will be saved because God always answers your prayers sounds pretty much out of line with 'You shall not test the Lord your God'. To me you sound mentally unstable and need a little help connecting with reality. I am sorry to say that to you - but I think it's true.

I seem to remember that you have a failsafe method of winning the lottery - how did that go?

Your answer to Dan's eight statements simply show that you just don't understand what's at the core of his arguments. You need to think more deeply about what he says.

Your answer to number one is theologically incorrect and infers some things that we just cannot know.

And your threat to rot Dan's finger makes me think that you might sympathise with the Muslims's who threaten death to cartoonists.

Blacknad.

[ February 10, 2006, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Blacknad ]

That's okay Blacknad, dance with the devil if you want. Thanks for saying I am mentally unstable, God bless you. I think a Christian who embrances homosexuality is mentally sick and unstable so don't take the speck out of my eye when you have more than a fat log in your eye As for Amaranth, you say I threatened Dan, however if you look closely at what he wrote, he dared me to ask God to make his finger bad, so I did not threaten him, I was prepared to prove him wrong.

As for D. A. Morgan
It seems your IQ has really begun to reverse, read what I said about the real cause of all the disease by the ruler of this earth before you claim I did not answer your questions. Frankly I don't care if Aramanth continues to unfairly give all that Dan writes freedom, but hen pecks
all that I write, the fact of the matter is anyone who defies my God will see my wrath in script. There is NO compromise and if you want to martyr me from your site then go ahead but I will not stand by like stupid Blacknad creeping up Dans poophole and allowing him to insult the Lord so openly. I dispise him for that. Get stuffed Blacknad.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 12:30 AM

I seem to remember that you have a failsafe method of winning the lottery - how did that go?

Oh by the way, I have won six numbers in the daily lottery for seven days in a row. If you want me to post my number daily for you I will certainly do so, just to prove a point. I do not lie!
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 05:10 AM

Philege wrote:
"I think a Christian who embrances homosexuality is mentally sick and unstable"

Well Philege if you wish to adhere strictly to the bible then lets get to it. When do you plan to start stoning adulterers. Because if you don't you are just advertising religious hypocrisy ... only wanting to enforce that which you agree with. Another strong point of similarity between you, the Taliban, and bin Laden. You guys would be the best of buddies. And, of course, you could all hate me with equal gusto.

Philege wrote:
"... the fact of the matter is anyone who defies my God will see my wrath in script."

Your god? Do you have the receipt from the purchase. Because it seems the batteries need to be replaced.

Philege wrote:
"...if you want to martyr me...."

Yep just like bin Laden. You too are so similar it is amazing. To fear-mongers hiding behind their religion to promote hatred and hypocrisy.

We are not insulting your lord. We are saying your personal interpretation is painfully in violation of all reasonable interpretations of that religion in the same way that Moslem extremists redefine their religion into a farse. And if your god does exist he certainly can not be smiliing about someone violating his most sacred principles on his behalf. If he wants to be defended let him get off his furry butt and do it himself.

Winning at gambling ... certainly doing the lords work. Going to the Fred Hutch tomorrow morning. Pray harder hypocrite.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 11:22 AM

Philege,

If anyone decides to insult God, it is their freedom to do so. I am not a self appointed guardian of the internet. I get angry at political correctness in its many forms and the thought policing that goes on today by the far left in Britain - (even though I'm left of centre, politically). I am not going to engage in trying to suppress people expressing themselves, by threats and taunts.

And as for sucking up to Dan - see it as you will, but his arguments carry some weight and he has caused me to examine what I believe more that anything else has - and his unbelief is not reactionary, it is deeply held and well thought out, but you have never engaged with him long enough to find out.

I have also never said I think that homosexuality is right. I do not, but you seem to have missed the point that Christ said he had come to fulfil the law. The law was based upon enmity and wrath. When the unfaithful woman was brought before Christ for stoning, what did he say? 'Only those without any wrong in them can stand in judgement of this woman's behaviour.' And then (with the implication that He had the right to stand in judgement), he forgave her, but told her to mend her ways.

The law showed us what things are like if we choose separation from God - Christ showed us what it is like to live under grace.

So I engage with gays as if there is no issue, but I'm prepared to be true to scripture and say I do not agree with their behaviour if I'm asked, just as I know that some aspects of my own behaviour aren?t right. I find it hateful that some Christians will go out of their way to offend, insult and damn someone based upon their sexual orientation or behaviour.

WHAT ABOUT LOVE?

Philege - "I despise him for that."

- Has your particular flavour of Christianity made you full of anger and judgement?

Philege ? ?Get stuffed Blacknad.?

- Again, is this where your Christianity brings you.

I challenge you to think about what Christ meant when he told us to love even our enemies. Christ DID judge and insult people, but surprisingly this behaviour was reserved exclusively for Religious leaders who oppressed their people. As a believer you have no grounds for dealing with anyone without tolerance and acceptance, whilst speaking what you perceive to be the truth (but humbly, knowing that it is your own fallible interpretation of matters that are deep and complex).

Regards,

Blacknad.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 12:23 PM

Blacknad - I humbly apologise for my rude remarks, which were said out of foolish anger, the new day and your posting has made me realise that I am not serving the interests of christianity by my actions. Thanks to some influence from you, I sometime ago re examined myself spiritually and found some elements lacking. So I began once again to attend church regularly and confession as well as regularly reading the scriptures. Funny enough I was once like D. A. Morgan, I could not see anything right about the bible. It took God to make me see the way. Yes his postings may seem rational in some respects but admittedly some of them are down right blasphemous. What I really should do is pray for God to work His way into Morgan's life. You are quite right and again I apologise for my moments of foolishness.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 12:39 PM

Winning at gambling ... certainly doing the lords work. Going to the Fred Hutch tomorrow morning. Pray harder hypocrite.

Playing the lottery which goes to a lot of good causes, and you don't know what I do with my winnings, maybe I donate them all to charity. If this would go one iota towards changing your attitude I would gladly stop gambling. The fact of the matter is we all sin in some form or another and no one person can stop doing wrong entirely. As for Fred Hutch, you refused to give a name for me, well I leave this in God's wonderful hands.

Your god? Do you have the receipt from the purchase. Because it seems the batteries need to be replaced.

My God because you compare my God to Bin Laden's
I do not own God, so what receipt are you writing about. Do not suppose that my God is Bin Laden's just because he claims so. My God introduced a law of love through His Son Jesus and I have never killed anyone. How can you compare me and my beliefs to someone like that. I now realise through Blacknad that it is a waste of time trying to convince someone like you to think differently. God in HIs own way, and on His own day will reveal himself to you, and like Paul you will do His work with vigour and power the opposite of your hateful thinking. I realise that reading your postings concerning God will start to influence me like they are influencing to Blacknad, therefore I will avoid reading them in future for they are inspired by the wicked one. Of this I have no doubt whatsoever. Goodbye servant of darkness!
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 02:19 PM

Philege wrote:
"My God because you compare my God to Bin Laden's"

Your GOD is bin Laden's. One and the same. The GOD of Abraham to you ... Ibrahim to bin Laden. Creator of the same Garden of Eden. Creator of the very same Adam to both of you. Creator of Satan to you, Iblis to him. Creator of the very same Jesus to you ... Isa to the Quranic writers. You are two peas from the same pod. You are believers in the exact same religion. The differences are as insignificant. Two dogs from the same litter.

Philege wrote:
"My God introduced a law of love through His Son Jesus"

Please correct me if I missed something here but isn't he the same GOD that inspired the following two passages?

"And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire."
Ezekiel 23:47

I can definitely feel the love. The love that brought us smallpox, polio, malaria, leukemia. I think we could all use a little less of that type of loving but thank you for trying to humanize the monster.

How about another test of your integrity? Read the following passage and tell me its source:
"Who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself?"

It is cited in the Hamas Charter (Article 27).

The religion of Abraham ... that's your religion.

Philege wrote:
"your postings concerning God will start to influence me like they are influencing to Blacknad, therefore I will avoid reading them in future for they are inspired by the wicked one."

Did you come here to SAGG to preach or to learn? To hide your head in the sands of ignorance rather than open your mind to new ideas? Seems to me you came to the wrong place.

So please do go confess your sins ... as you have many ... most obviously pride. I, on the other hand, wish to thank Kate and Rose and Rusty for cleaning the cage and making this possible.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 03:09 PM

Member Rated:
posted 12 February, 2006 09:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philege wrote:
"My God because you compare my God to Bin Laden's"

Your GOD is bin Laden's. One and the same. The GOD of Abraham to you ... Ibrahim to bin Laden. Creator of the same Garden of Eden. Creator of the very same Adam to both of you. Creator of Satan to you, Iblis to him. Creator of the very same Jesus to you ... Isa to the Quranic writers. You are two peas from the same pod. You are believers in the exact same religion. The differences are as insignificant. Two dogs from the same litter.

If one reads the Koran one can see that there is something very different between it and the Bible. If you read the story of Joseph in the Koran, it tells you that the other women asked Pharoah's wife 'To swear by Allah' now we all know that the Egyptians at that time believed in Ra the Sun God and Isis etc, so one can see an obvious fabrication within the Koran. One can find many such inconsistencies with our scriptures that make me seriously doubt whether the God the claim to worship is one and the same as ours.

Also Mohammed cannot even be compared with Jesus, because he was a sinner and an ordinary man who married and for many years was a heathen. Funny enough the Moslems claim that Mohammed confirmed the Gospel was true and yet they despise we who uphold it. I would describe Islam as the Revelation description of "Looked like a lamb but spoke as a dragon." So Mr. Morgan Islam is not one dot or one iota the same as Christianity in my estimation at least. Sorry I can't confirm where your note comes from I don't have a photgraphic memory.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 07:12 PM

Philege wrote:
"If one reads the Koran one can see that there is something very different between it and the Bible."

Yep ... one was written in one language the other in another language. Both are celebrations of one and the same GOD and a religion originating with one and the same man. You want to claim your version is more correct than theirs have at it. GOD made far more of them than he did you and your kind. And certainly GOD has shown them favor as he instructed all to be fruitful and multiply and they've done one heck of a good job of following the rule.

Philege also wrote:
"Also Mohammed cannot even be compared with Jesus, because he was a sinner and an ordinary man who married and for many years was a heathen."

And your source for this information is? Provide me with verifiable information. Sources that can be verified. Not authorless books written in a language you can not read and intentionally mistranslated repeatedly. Give me facts or admit you are just making it all up.

Then Philege wrote:
"Oh so you thought I was leaving, I meant that I would not read any more of your tripe"

But you didn't. You lied. Lying is a sin. You are a sinner. Go confess you sins.

Then Philege wrote:
"Don't forget that God introduced a New Covenant through His Son Jesus. Above relates to the Old covenant."

New Covenant? You mean what he did before was wrong? He made a mistake? He was at one time an evil bloodthirsty monster but he got into a 12 step program and reformed?

How can a perfect deity change its mind except to admit its lack of perfection?

You'd think a real GOD would have other than fools for minions.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 11:19 PM

Philege also wrote:
"Also Mohammed cannot even be compared with Jesus, because he was a sinner and an ordinary man who married and for many years was a heathen."

Ask any Moslem, or purchase the Koran, the whole story is in there. Use your blinking internet, type Mohamed in G-O-O-G-L-E or read Rushdies 'Satanic Verses'
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 11:21 PM

Then Philege wrote:
"Oh so you thought I was leaving, I meant that I would not read any more of your tripe"

But you didn't. You lied. Lying is a sin. You are a sinner. Go confess you sins.

I have the free will to change my mind as I see fit. You are not my fairy God father to tell me what I can or cannot do. Besides I was responding to what you wrote, you did ask some questions didn't you? Yes I am a sinner, a repentant one.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/12/06 11:23 PM

New Covenant? You mean what he did before was wrong? He made a mistake? He was at one time an evil bloodthirsty monster but he got into a 12 step program and reformed?

No [content deleted], the first covenant was only for the Jews, the second covenant is for every one, unfortunately even for you.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/13/06 01:21 AM

Philege:
I have read Rushdie but I have my own opinion. Do you have one or am I talking to a parrot?

Philege wrote:
"You are not my fairy God father to tell me what I can or cannot do."

Come now ... just a few days ago you told me I was powerful enough to have personally created smallpox. Then you were begging others to join your hate-filled tirade to condemn me in the name of GOD. You can't have it both ways. While I am not your fairy GOD father I am the invisible purple rhinoceros.

Philege wrote:
"the first covenant was only for the Jews, the second covenant is for every one, unfortunately even for you."

Can someone get Philege a synapse or two. You mean GOD had one set of rules for thousands of years for Jews and woke up one morning and decided to create another set of conflicting rules for Indians, Azeris, Turks, and Afrikaaners? Wow!

Did he or did he not slaughter everyone on the planet including newborn infants?

Did he or did he not create smallpox?

Your hypocrisy is seemingly boundless?
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/13/06 09:10 PM

Can someone get Philege a synapse or two. You mean GOD had one set of rules for thousands of years for Jews and woke up one morning and decided to create another set of conflicting rules for Indians, Azeris, Turks, and Afrikaaners? Wow!

Okay Mr.purple rhinoceros, I'll explain a thing or two. The Jews were chosen by God to be rulers of this earth. There was a condition set to this. If the Jews followed God's laws given through Moses they would inherit the kingdom, however if they did not they would lose everything which would then be given to others. Also don't forget there are many other false religions now don't pretend you know that your master 'Uncle Lucy'is the one who set these up to confuse mankind not God. God is wonderful for me, I don't know about you who abides in darkness. Everytime you say something bad about my God my faith multiplies hundredfold. In fact I am glad to have been part of this forum, because it has helped my spirituality to grom immensely. Thanks for tempering my faith Mr. Morgan, please keep it up, its fantastic. Alleluiah!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/13/06 09:24 PM

Did he or did he not slaughter everyone on the planet including newborn infants?

Did he or did he not create smallpox?

Your hypocrisy is seemingly boundless?

Who are we to question God's judgement. He sent His angels to see who was worthy to survive in a wicked and evil society. (Remember the pigeon toes)and He was prepared to spare mankind if a certain number could be found. The occupiers of the earth at that time were no ordinary men. The were mixtures of the fallen angels and mankind. Therefore their wickedness was incalculable. That is why they were destroyed. You have no right to question God's actions since you are His creation, He can do whatever He wants with you, for you totally belong to him.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/13/06 11:09 PM

You really are trying to become the poster child for willfull ignorance aren't you.

You actually wrote:
"Ask any Moslem, or purchase the Koran, the whole story is in there. Use your blinking internet, type Mohamed in G-O-O-G-L-E or read Rushdies 'Satanic Verses'"

When, in fact, you have been so lazy as to never do any of them. I have read Rushdie. I have read the Qran, though not in Arabic, and I have rarely met a person lazier or more willfully ignorant than you that wasn't addicted to heroin or crack cocaine.

You've read some commentary on the book. Wonderful. And the people you work with likely know as much about their religion as you do about yours. Got your opinions of your authorless book from what someone else told you it meant too.

But the prize comment is:
"but then we are discouraged from reading material which would question our faith"

No doubt about it. You definitely do not want to open your mind to the possibility that there are other interpretations of anything. Your GOD is so weak and shallow that reading a book might turn you into a godless heathen. Considering that your source of information might be flawed is a one-way ticket straight to H, E, Double-Toothpicks. Keep the blinders on. Only listen to what we tell you. We are right and they are wrong. We are good and they are bad. We are white and they are black. Don't let anything get close enough to the brainwashing ... it might not hold. We are superior and know everything and everyone that disagrees with us is on satan's payroll with healthcare and full retirement benefits.

Do you belong to a church or a cult? Don't bother responding. The question was purely rhetorical.

BTW: Things are not going well at the Fred Hutch. Pray harder. Your GOD is ignoring you and a small child is dying a very painful death. If your faith can't save the life of an infant with cancer ... what can it do? Sorry to intrude with reality. Repeat after me la la la la la I'm not listening la la la la la.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 01:54 AM

Philege wrote:
"Well I told you that I need the name of the child in order for my prayers to work and you would not supply them. So blame yourself."

Your arrogance and hypocrisy rise to a new level. Your GOD is so impotent he needs a name? Would a photograph help? How about a copy of the birth certificate and the father's cell phone number. But the classic: "Blame yourself."

Excuse me but I didn't create cancer: Your GOD did.
Excuse me but I didn't give the child the cancer: Your GOD did.
Excuse me but I'm not the one claiming to be the most powerful force in the universe: Your GOD did.
Excuse me but I'm not the one causing the painful death of an innocent young child: Your GOD is!

Then Philege wrote:
"I guess you were scared that the truth might be revealed to you!"

The only thing that scares me is people that are brainwashed. You sir are truly frightening. It is your kind that starts and participates in holy wars. It is your kind that burns people at the stake. It is your kind that is filled with intolerance and hatred. And when it comes to fear ... read what you've written about yourself ... you are afraid to read Rushdie.

Then Philege demonstrated the power of Jesus Christ running through his veins when he wrote:
"Catch a crap Morgan!" No commentary is required here methinks. Back to the confessional.

Philege wrote:
"Faith baby, that's all I need!"

Remember that the next time you get an infection. Remember that the next time you are thinking about an appointment at the dentist. Remember that the next time you flip a light switch or look at a computer or drink uncontaminated water. The only thing reaching the level of heaven in your presence is the height of the hypocrisy.

You a Catholic? Not a chance. The Catholic church does not discourage its followers from reading books. The Catholic church does not teach that one should be wilfully ignorant. The Catholic church does not sanction the kind of hatred and vitriol that fills your heart.

Of course along with the Inquisition I guess there is one other little insult to human intelligence the Catholic church has wrought. The declaration by a pope that Capybara is a fish.

For those that don't know about this sick little joke: http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/behavior/Spring2002/Willoughby/other.html
it does go to show the fact that Philege apparently is honoring a long history of hypcrisy.

I think I'd like you more if you were an alcoholic. For alcoholics there are 12 step programs. People like you hiding behind the cassocks of the church remind me of the child abusers too who claimed to be good Catholics.

Perhaps though I should print what you've posted here at SAGG and show it to the priest at our local church. I'm sure he'd be most amused at what you have done in the church's name.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 03:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Philege:
...I do not hate you Mr. Morgan, but I hate the vile filth which oozes from the depths of your soul. Your blasphemous rants cannot go unchecked. While other's may be cowards in defending the faith, I will strive to defend the faith against, spiritual verminous taunts like the ones emitted from you. You really don't know who you are dealing with....
As Moderator,
May I remind you that this is a Science forum. This ranting has nothing to do with Science. If all you can do is rant and rave and post thinly veiled threats like this I will have to take action.

This is a place for civil discussion of Science, not religion. Please observe the rules of the Forum and stick to Science and Science-related subjects.

Amaranth
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 05:12 AM

Well done. Thank you.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 07:48 PM

Philege - "In fact I am glad to have been part of this forum, because it has helped my spirituality to grom immensely."

- Unfortunately the same cannot be said for your humility, gentleness of spirit, and sense of proportion.

I sometimes feel slighted by Dan's comments, but at least they are consistent with what he believes. The same cannot be said of your profanities, insults and arrogant gloating and posturing. These are certainly not consistent with the scriptural teachings I know.

Maybe you read it differently and I have missed something. If you can point me to the verse that tells you to 'verbally beat people until they agree with you' I would be grateful. Because until then I will continue to feel that you do Christianity a bigger disservice than Dan ever can.

People on this website have just about had a bellyful of ignorant Christians throwing their weight around.

Oh, and E = mc^2 - thought I'd better get some science in somewhere.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 09:45 PM

I think I'd like you more if you were an alcoholic. For alcoholics there are 12 step programs. People like you hiding behind the cassocks of the church remind me of the child abusers too who claimed to be good Catholics.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 09:53 PM

Oh, and E = mc^2 - thought I'd better get some science in somewhere. What a load!


I sometimes feel slighted by Dan's comments, but at least they are consistent with what he believes. The same cannot be said of your profanities, insults and arrogant gloating and posturing. These are certainly not consistent with the scriptural teachings I know.

Yes Blacknad,

It's funny that you give no response when I say something good, like when I apologised to you, you would not accpet my apology, so don't go pointing your crooked finger at me acting like you are a perfect christian. Your view on homosexuality and the like show me what sort of christian you are. I told you about removing the fat log from your eye before you start taking out the smote from my eye.

As for Aramanth, how come you never comment on D. A. Morgan's persistent insults which are also not science related. How am I threatening Dan by telling him that the God he is insulting is one he does not know whom he is dealing with.

Anyway for something science related, even intelligent Einstein at least beleived in God.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:17 PM

You a Catholic? Not a chance. The Catholic church does not discourage its followers from reading books. The Catholic church does not teach that one should be wilfully ignorant. The Catholic church does not sanction the kind of hatred and vitriol that fills your heart.

Ask you local priest if it's alright to read Jehovah's Witness Material, you'll see what I mean.

I think I'd like you more if you were an alcoholic. For alcoholics there are 12 step programs. People like you hiding behind the cassocks of the church remind me of the child abusers too who claimed to be good Catholics.

Did I say I was a good Catholic, ofcourse according to you I am a bad Catholic, well you are a very bad and wicked atheist, the most vile I have encountered, not an ounce of decency and respect for that which you don't understand. And surprisingly you get support from a warped christian. I repeat that I do not hate you as a person, but I hate what you write especially about God. And I will never fail to defend Him on a forum such as this. My only regret is that I let my anger forsake my aims and I fail by writing what I should not. For that I am trully sorry.

Anyway here is a little story for you.

There was once an athieistic professor at Harvard university, who was arguing with a christian student about the existence of God. He then took a new piece of chalk and said to his students. "To prove there no God, I am going to drop this piece of chalk on the floor, and if it does not break I will believe that God exists." The christian student then asked the professor if he could first pray before he dropped the chalk. "Be my guest! Pray all day if you want." The student went on his knees and prayed, " Heavenly Father, Please show this man that you do trully exist, not for my sake but for his sake." After the student finished praying The professor let the piece of chalk go, at that precise moment a small wind blew against the professor's gown. It cause the gown to flip outwards and catch the chalk, cushioning it's fall and making it roll harmlessly on to the floor, not a speck or flake of chalk was released. The professor was shocked and awed and immediately went on his knees to acknowledge and worship God. Howzat! Mr. Morgan Sir!
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:20 PM

The Catholic church does not sanction the kind of hatred and vitriol that fills your heart.

Let the Catholic Church read what you are writing about God and I am sure they would wish the Inquisition was still around to deal with you.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:29 PM

Philege,

I find it incredible that you define a Christian by his or her view on gays. Classing gays as mentally sick and demonic is not a part of any Christian creed that I have encountered.

I have not challenged your Christian status, just your behaviour. But I will leave you to it, as you're correct - on reflection, I am being holier-than-thou.

And your right, Einstein did believe in God, and had special regard for Christ...

This is clearly reflected in an interview which Einstein later in life gave to an American magazine, The Saturday Evening Post, in 1929:

"To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?"

"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."

"Have you read Emil Ludwig's book on Jesus?"

"Emil Ludwig's Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot."

"You accept the historical Jesus?"

"Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." 7

In view of this interview it is understandable that Einstein is reported to have said that Christ Jesus was the greatest of all Jews.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:30 PM

I think I'd like you more if you were an alcoholic. For alcoholics there are 12 step programs. People like you hiding behind the cassocks of the church remind me of the child abusers too who claimed to be good Catholics.

Are you saying that there are no atheist child abusers. I am certain that these far outnumber Catholic ones. There is no area of society where one does not find child abusers. This by the way comes again from the wicked one.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:35 PM

I find it incredible that you define a Christian by his or her view on gays. Classing gays as mentally sick and demonic is not a part of any Christian creed that I have encountered

Of this I am wrong to judge, humble apologies!
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 10:50 PM

Apology accepted wink

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/14/06 11:09 PM

Philege wrote:
"As for Aramanth, how come you never comment on D. A. Morgan's persistent insults which are also not science related."

Actually my comments are science related. Science, at its essence, is about the scientific method. About things that are verifiable and repeatable. I offer commentary that is verifiable and repeatable and do so to clearly demonstrate the distinction between science and people that throw around four letter words and vague promises from authorless books. Hope that helps.

Philege wrote:
"How am I threatening Dan by telling him that the God he is insulting is one he does not know whom he is dealing with."

Amazing. Just a few column inches later you wrote:
"Let the Catholic Church read what you are writing about God and I am sure they would wish the Inquisition was still around to deal with you."

And you don't see that as a threat? Have you gone off your medication? The Roman Catholic church has apologized for it and has been deeply saddened and embarrased by it ... and you haven't got a clue.

Philege wrote:
"I repeat that I do not hate you as a person, but I hate what you write especially about God."

Hate is hate is hate. You seemingly are consumed by it. Draw a line with a pencil if you wish ... but I expect to be reading about you in the newspaper given your inability to control yourself.

Philege wrote:
"Are you saying that there are no atheist child abusers. I am certain that these far outnumber Catholic ones."

Actually this is not true. Studies conducted by the Catholic church and released as part of court cases indicated that the level of abuse by priests was significantly higher than that in the general public. But then you probably wouldn't know about it as the study wasn't sanctioned reading.

Bladnad ... do you know Philege personally or are you just responding to what is posted here? I have taken a copy of Philege's postings to the priest at St. Monica's here where I live and he was, quite frankly, shocked that any catholic would have, or could have, written this vitriol. Not just the parts for which he apologizes above but his wholesale misrepresentations of church doctrine. If you know him ... you might want to have a talk with him about asking for help.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/15/06 10:53 PM

Bladnad ... do you know Philege personally or are you just responding to what is posted here? I have taken a copy of Philege's postings to the priest at St. Monica's here where I live and he was, quite frankly, shocked that any catholic would have, or could have, written this vitriol. Not just the parts for which he apologizes above but his wholesale misrepresentations of church doctrine. If you know him ... you might want to have a talk with him about asking for help.

What lies, and did you tell the priest what you wrote, and did he smile about it. If he did then he is a funny priest, especially after you accused his kind of being the worst child abusers. Also what help do I need? I thought you don't believe in God? Did you tell the priest why I was enraged by your foul, filthy verminous,vile and blasphemous remarks about God. I am sure that if you did he would recommend that you need help, not me. Sincerely Morgan, you don't have to try to get me excommunicated by reporting me. Please give me the address of this priest so I can send a full report about the bad, wicked, satanical remarks you made about his God. That is fair isn't it after all you squealled about me don't you think that a little squeal about you is all in order. Typical of satan's agent trying to influence poor Blacknad who actually influenced me to turn to God more to agree with his horrid opinions. Blacknad is an intelligent and good writer. Its's a pleasure to read his well balanced arguments. It's a pity he lends you his ears, or is it eyes however I realise that this is because he is a good christian from whom I can learn a lot. Actually Morgan you are a hypocrite, because you actually went to the priest, someone you believe is wasting his time serving God after all you wrote. You are a worse hypocrite than I'll ever be, shame on you.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/15/06 11:07 PM

Actually this is not true. Studies conducted by the Catholic church and released as part of court cases indicated that the level of abuse by priests was significantly higher than that in the general public. But then you probably wouldn't know about it as the study wasn't sanctioned reading.

Another bunch of fibs, recently the Jehovahs Witnesses had a terrible scandal involving child abuse which made the Catholics look like saints, what about the Mormon Church, one cannot count the number of child abuses which took place within that church from it's inception. Come now Morgan don't think only you know everything. Read the newspapers, almost everyday atheistic abusers are caught. Much much more than the Catholics, your story about a Catholic report is rubbish, yes there have been a few bad priests, but then there were also many good ones. I grew up in a Catholic orphange and can tell you that none of the children were abused as far as I can remember.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/15/06 11:12 PM

Hate is hate is hate. You seemingly are consumed by it. Draw a line with a pencil if you wish ... but I expect to be reading about you in the newspaper given your inability to control yourself.
Now what is this suppose to mean, would you go that far Mr. Morgan.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 03:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Philege:

Another bunch of fibs, recently the Jehovahs Witnesses had a terrible scandal involving child abuse which made the Catholics look like saints, what about the Mormon Church, one cannot count the number of child abuses which took place within that church from it's inception. ...
Do you have any references to back up these contentions, or are you just blowing out? Please post any references you have to these statements as I know from prior experience you tend to overstate your position rather egregiously.
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:37 PM

Just to back up philege, check out these sites


pressbox.co.uk/detailed/Society/Jehovah_Witnesses_Child_Abuse_Scandal... - 11k
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:40 PM

www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/childabuse.htm

And this one!
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:42 PM

www.jehovahs-witness.com/8/44236/1.ashx

And this one!
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:44 PM

www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon219.html

And this one!
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:46 PM

www.geocities.com/wsimister/ldscourt.htm

And this one!
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:47 PM

If those are not enough, let me know, I'll did up hundreds more articles, that will make you puke!
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:49 PM

I guess you owe poor philege an apology Aramanth Rose! The guy is not so dumb as you guys make him out to be. A lot of what he says carries weight that's for sure!
Posted by: Chris Maxwell

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/16/06 10:54 PM

I guess once you've been through this pile of evidence in support of Philege, you will realise just what he means when he says that these make the Catholics look like saints. Whatyathink Mr. D.A. Morgan!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/17/06 02:47 AM

Thank you for providing substance to back up Philege's claims. It would seem the Mormon and Jehovah's Witnesses have similar problems to the Catholic Church. Does that mean that Protestant denominations or Islam are any safer? I doubt it. Any religious structure that suppports male dominance and ingrained "respect for elders" is likely to find itself with the same problems, I fear.

Teach your kids to think for themselves, and teach them respect for their own bodies, if you want to fight child abuse. Child abuse stops one child at a time. Teach your kids about inappropriate behavior before they encounter it. Even leaving them with a babysitter can be dangerous.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/17/06 05:08 AM

Rose you were a biologist at one time?

The Watchtower is substance?
A web site hosted by a near-cult relgious group is substance?
But I think I get your point.

Any church that teaches male supremacy by word or deed is fatally flawed. Any church that does not encourage open-ended learning is fatally flawed. Any church that teaches what is unprovable dogma is fatally flawed.

But a decent review of the teachings of the present day Catholic Church only support the fact that Philege isn't one of them.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/17/06 08:50 AM

Fatally flawed and inciting to riot, in my opinion. The kind of behavior I've seen on this forum regarding religion makes me afraid to leave my house. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts and minds of men who believe so strongly in the superiority of their faith and the incorrectness of all other beliefs. I'll stay here in my nice safe cage, thank you very much, where I can observe without danger of confronting people like that.

Amaranth
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/17/06 07:00 PM

Fatally flawed and inciting to riot, in my opinion. The kind of behavior I've seen on this forum regarding religion makes me afraid to leave my house. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts and minds of men who believe so strongly in the superiority of their faith and the incorrectness of all other beliefs. I'll stay here in my nice safe cage, thank you very much, where I can observe without danger of confronting people like that.

Amaranth

Rose, I can assure you I am as harmless as a blue ass fly. Unfortunately you are right in one respect, I think that the Catholic Church is the only true Church steming from the only true religion. The only reason we tolerate other religions is because Christ taught us to love others and show compassion and understanding. However when we are faced with someone who shows absolutely NO respect for the one and only true God, who debases Him day and night on a forum such as this, I feel one has to stand up and say No. That is why Hitler succeeded in Germany, because everyone was afraid to say no to him. It is not that I am intolerent, but D. A. Morgan does'nt believe in anything, when I know 100% that there is something. So I cannot agree with him in any way, neither can I accept his insults against my God.
Posted by: Philege

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/17/06 07:06 PM

But a decent review of the teachings of the present day Catholic Church only support the fact that Philege isn't one of them.

Well it is good to see that you are looking into the Catholic Church, perhaps you will find something. I AM a Catholic, a baptised one and you cannot take that away from me. Also it is not only that I don't agree with you but that you don't agree with me. Why don't we leave it at that, I am a Catholic, one that learns every day. Just like I am learning that there are some people who completely disregard God's existence, which I find absolutely surprising. The fact that you blow hot air out of both ends is wonder enough and prood that you were not made by chance.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/17/06 09:22 PM

Philege wrote:
"I think that the Catholic Church is the only true Church steming from the only true religion."

Why do you think this? And no this is not a rhetorical question or a trick. On what basis, looking around at the history of your church which is, to say the least sordid and bloody, and looking at all of the billions of people on this planet that are not Roman Catholic. On what basis in fact have you reached this conclusion? I sincerely would like to have you state the points, one after the other. Say the first 5 or 6. And obviously you can not point to the New Testament as it does not take sides between Catholics and Lutherans.

Philege wrote:
"Well it is good to see that you are looking into the Catholic Church"

No looking in the way you assume. Looking at the teachings of the church and juxtaposing them against what you've posted as someone who claims to adhere to the faith. What I've seen is enough to turn my stomach. You seem to be as likely a Catholic as a Osama bin Laden.

All I see in you is a fanatic. And unthinking fanatic lacking in analytical tools and sentient thinking.

Were it otherwise I would expect you would see the Pacific Ocean sized chasm separating your statements from those of the church. And the intergalactic chasm separating your behaviour from anything even remotely sanctioned by any church.
Posted by: wrongway

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/18/06 05:06 AM

does anyone know how to calculate the odds of randomly rolling 10 coins numbered from 1 through 10 in ascending order so they would appear like this: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10?
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/18/06 05:40 AM

10 factorial.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/20/06 08:51 AM

WE ARE A LIVING MIRACLE

- Billions of people around the World believe that there is a God.
- The earth is perfectly made for life to exist. (A self-Sustaining Planet, where all parts coexist to work together)
- The World has order.
- The World was not created by chance. (Just because humans can not comprehend the maths behind it)
The distinguished astronomer Sir Frederick Hoyle showed how amino acids randomly coming together in a human cell is mathematically absurd. Sir Hoyle illustrated the weakness of "chance" with the following analogy. "What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for take-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!" (Evolution from Space, Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe,J. M. Dent & Sons, 1981, p. 130))
-Right and Wrong has been embedded in the system.
We all have a sense of hurt, and we know what not to do and what we should do! We are not Robots we are emotional learning beings.
- Everything in the world requires balance for it to run efficiently. A Balanced Lifestyle- Not too much, Not too little or this can lead to complications. In this sense we have all been created equal.
- Man makes his own future, and has the power to change the world. - Human beings have often failed to consider the big picture. Problems have arisen because of the short term decision making and exploitation, failing to consider the needs of everyone within the system. (These actions, have indirectly and directly affected people and the things around us)
- Without Suffering love would not exist, without love life would not exist. Without life God would not exist. We are on this Earth for God.

We are emotional creatures driven by feelings
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 02/20/06 04:33 PM

Plato wrote:
"WE ARE A LIVING MIRACLE"

Oh imbecilic egotistical poppycock. You are no more miraculous than a walnut.

Plato wrote:
"Billions of people around the World believe that there is a God."

More of them believe in Islam than Christianity. I say we put it to a vote. Of course far more of them don't believe in either.

Plato wrote:
"The World has order."

And order, of course, can not possibly arise through the known laws of physics. Order must therefore equal a Judeo-Christian deity. Amazing. Did you get your synapses out of a box of breakfast cereal?

Plato wrote:
"The World was not created by chance."

And you know this how?

What an amazing ability you have to throw away, at a whim, millions of years of human cerebral evolution. Or perhaps I've misjudged you. Perhaps you are the first chipmunk that has an internet connection.
Posted by: I dunno maytey

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/04/06 05:42 PM

I've gorra say I learned this throuh astral travel, theres the physical realm , the hear and now thats really solid that we can't manipulate, our bodys are part of the physical, and then theres the astral your soul, which is made up of billiols of electrons which leave our body when we die, our soul, which we can explore the world ourselves. yeah there is the universe, but there are more universes than there are stars in it, its infinate, but also infinately small if we manage to move beyond it. all the souls in every universe hook up and conjoine togother and are controlled bye one mind, one conciousness, when a soul expands his conciousness to all "that is light" he attains godhood. God is the creator of the universe, but he him self has a creator, the infiniverse, which is just like a huge white disk with a face on it the all origonal master soul we are part of. it is finate, but the mere thaught of it is well beyond the conciousness of what the average man is cabable of thinking within him are the gods and the angels, and the gods are made up of stars as if they were mere electrons in his soul. there are two infinity verses good and evil,posotive and negative, black and white which are in total darkness. no one knows what the infinity verse is a microcosm of and we will never know, but I have a feeling, the whole of what is in existance is infinatley small and infinatley big. we could find that the infiniverses make up to form a cell in somones body and we find ourself going around in circles again, and its a never ending cycle with a begining and end and then a begining again for eternity, god is so close to being nothing, he is in every cell in our body, but we are so close to being everything, within every cell is a microsoul which is made up of infiniverses which is made up of universes and planets, thats what life is, and it will go on for all eternity, you can not define life how big or how small because if you did it would be finate and it wouldnt exist!!!!!!!!!! the only answer is that its eternal and there is no answer, and disapointingly getting our concious mind around the universe is a cycle of infinate expansion only to find out the whole thing aye nothing but a cell in someones liver. to expand so and nothing else out side other than its own existance. If we were to run through one side of the universe we would just come out the other side, If we wanted to find out what the universe is we would find it appears like infinaty but its the smallest microcosm of life on another level.

paul,
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/04/06 06:17 PM

I dunno maytey,

I think you misread the title of this board. It's Origins, not Fantasy. Astral Travel is as illusory as the rest of your explanation of existence.

Blacknad
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/04/06 09:34 PM

As illusory as a deity nominally named god to which are ascribed thoughts, decisions, actions, and words for which there is no verification?

I find both Maytey's invention and the ones of extant religions equally compelling. On what basis do you believe in your but reject his?

And let me remind you of the following before you respond:

Scriptures: the sacred books of our holy religion,
as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.
~ Ambrose Bierce

and

When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
~ Stephen Roberts

From my vantage point you two are equals.
Posted by: I dunno maytey

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/05/06 01:37 PM

you might think it to be mumbo jumbo, thats because you don't listen in. you use your skeptisism and manly rational minds. when god talked about our our planet his angel say ohhhh, god says which world is that bloke from, his angel say the one hitler took control of and einstein ruined, the dying planet. you wont find the answers simply by preying, you have to blank your mind all togethor for half an hour and go into a trance before you start hearing the voices of the spirits around, you. you can ask them all the questions you want. you have to blank your mind and feel the vibrational movements of your soul inside you. it takes practice. its like tuning into the radio station, and it is real, what your hearing is real life people but on another frequency. the reason we dont see good walking down the street is because, to see him we have to be on the same level. God runs the radio show but you wont hear nothin till ya turn on your radio and tune in, that can can only be acheived in a state of blank mind for half an hour and focusing on all the vibrations, it is not imagination what you see is real, after a while ask for a messenger of god to tell you the real story and how the universe is. don't relly on einstein, he only mucked things up, so what he write a few words and thaught of a way to to electric current though the smallest partical on earth and split it, so what, does that make him god??? all he ever acheived was to teach other men how to make bigger explosions than before, with few benefits where the destruction outweighs.
einstein started a chain of thaught that will eventually lead to more destruction. what makes einstein any diffrent to joseph mangel, they both acheived the same thing, genecide. do you seriously think that everything that we see around us was created by pure chance, that some microscopic worm living on some igneus rock over time evolved into a fully fledged man???. It may of done but who do you think shaped and guided it? it was an influence on another frequency, that we cant see on the astral level. the astral level is like just the light, everything is loose and easy to shape and mould and over time what ever is on the physical plane will follow. how do you think the cells know where to go, and how to change into the colours of the feathers of the bird? the truth is that each cell has a soul which is also guided by god, god tell the souls inside the cells how they must form and shape, the cells are living things with souls. I can't beleive the absolute narrow minded arragance in this room, who dont even consider that a spiritual world of light and souls exists on another frequency, and has direct influenceon the physical earth, we can't see life, but we can see it at work, inside the physical, if you see a bird flying, you are not seeing life, but life working through the body of the bird. you are confusing the physical plane and all things in it with life. the physical plane and all we see is not life, but controlled by life, but the physical repulse the soul if the body a soul enters breaks down, the soul will naturally leave it, because the brain the place for the soul to controll the body doesnt work no more. the human brain is not life, the brain alone is not a mind, it is the soul the energy with in that is the mind. the brain does not think when there is no soul in it, it is only a mass of nerves conected to diffrent places of the body, that alone is not good enough for life, you need a soul.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/05/06 06:21 PM

maytey wrote:
"you might think it to be mumbo jumbo, thats because you don't listen in you use your skeptisism and manly rational minds."

Actually I think it mumbo jumbo because I do listen in. I listen to the fact that this jargon-laden nonsense has been foisted, year-after-year, generation-after-generation on different group's of gulliable people all of whom follow it until the next no-sense fad comes along.

I'm not sure how manly my mind is but I do sure as heck hope it is rational: The exact opposite, it seems, of yours.

You are just here selling your religion like everybody else. Another priest in parishioners clothing. What proof do you have that you are right? What evidence do you have that the universe would be different if you are wrong? Why should anyone care about any of your nonsense? What will it get them?

Will it cure war and cruelty and torture? History indicates pretty clearly the answer is no.

Will it cure Alzheimers or AIDS or leukemia or eradicate polio?

Will it make me happier in any manner other than the way that heroin makes people happy?

Go sell your poppycock somewhere else. Christianity at least has one thing going for it. It has survived more than a millenium. No one knew about your nonsense 100 years ago and no one will remember it 50 years from now.
Posted by: Chaoslillith

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/05/06 08:16 PM

Not entirely true DA; aboriginal, pagan and most of the Eastern philosophies all have their idea of astral travel, souls and such which predate Christianity by a few centuries at least.

My humble thoughts on religion and science are simple. There are many religions that use herbs and naturally ocurring substances to heal and perform what seems like miraculous cures. Many of the aborignal people profess belief in some spirits within the substance that heals. Centuries ago those ideas were deemed evil works of the heathens who would corrupt the good European souls. It turns out all those herbs and natural substances are now being vindicated by science as having truly amazing properties.

There is quite a movement among biologists to study the medicine of the remaining native people to learn what we can before that knowledge and the animals and plants are gone. This has happened over and over where one religion or belief system denounces another and then over time science provides the clear truth. I think science can prove or disprove the technical details of certain organized religions. Science is continously discovering new evidence of things that were condsidered supersitious poppycock, look up Cranial Sacral therapy, the effects meditation and such has on healing and you will see that not all things that were considered poppycock 20 years ago still are today.

I do not believe in A god so to speak, nor that there is a creator, but I do believe that in the end science will provide justification for many beliefs that were denounced centuries ago.
Posted by: I dunno maytey

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/05/06 08:22 PM

before you go aragantly denying what I say , try going into a trance till you start seeing and sensing things and listen your self and ask all you need to know!
paul
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/05/06 08:36 PM

Chaoslillith:
"Not entirely true DA; aboriginal, pagan and most of the Eastern philosophies all have their idea of astral travel, souls and such which predate Christianity by a few centuries at least."

Plagiarizing a concept does not make the plagiarism valid. You can't even define the word "astral" ... it is a word that means the same thing as googoogaga or superfagilisticxpialidocious.

Chaos wrote:
"There are many religions that use herbs and naturally ocurring substances to heal and perform what seems like miraculous cures"

Preposterous nonsense. Before the advent of modern medicine those wonderful people with their miracuous cures had life expectancies in their 30s-40s. The fact that modern medicine has used herbal anecdotes to identify plants with pharmacologically active substances does not mean squat. There are no miraculous cures for anything. There are just ignorant people wearing their ignorance as a badge-of=courage.

Chaos wrote:
"There is quite a movement among biologists to study the medicine of the remaining native people"

On this we agree. Back in the 1970s I was one of them for several years. Both of my publications in the pharmaceutical industry were derived specifically from phytochemistry and involved using integrated Gas Chromotography/Mass Spectrometry for that very purpose.

But let me give you an analogy a bit closer to home. Botulinum toxin is as toxic a protein as has ever been discovered. It too is used by modern medicine. The toxic nature of the protein demonstrated a pharmacological activity that has since been exploited (for I'll grant an extremely stupid and shallow purpose) but people with food poisoning is hardly miraculous.

Similarly the fact that Southwest American indians blew their minds with mescaline is of zero pharmacetical value while the similar behavior of others led to the miracle that is morphine.

All of the poltices using mouldy bread in Europe did not produce penicillin. Penicillin was produced by chemists.

In the end science will do nothing other than demonstrate the simple fact that we, physically and mentally, do not violate the laws of physics.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/05/06 08:39 PM

Meytay wrote:
"before you go aragantly denying what I say , try going into a trance till you start seeing and sensing things and listen your self and ask all you need to know!"

I've a better idea. Why don't you hold your breath until you turn blue?

The result will be the same but I have a special love of the colour blue.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/05/06 09:24 PM

DA said ? ?On what basis do you believe in your but reject his??

REP: At the centre of my faith lies an historical figure that I find to be unlike anyone else found in myth or legend. I accept that the proof of his existence and actions is not beyond question ? but there is enough there for those who wish, to explore further and see if Christ really does impact their life. Cascioli?s bid to take the evidence to court has been thrown out, but we are likely to see the case in the European Court as he is heading there. The decision either way will not make one bit of difference to most Christians who experience the undeniable presence of Christ in their life. And of course they will be called irrational, dishonest and unhinged ? and they won?t care either. Christ said the world would hate us and Paul said we will be thought foolish, so we expect nothing less. I accept that you think I am a sad moron for believing in something that cannot be verified.

From your perspective, I believe in a made up God and from my perspective you worship science and have a blind faith in humanity?s ability to right all things.

I am not anti-science except when it is elevated to the status of religion. We are destroying this planet and have already destroyed many of the species that inhabit it. Most of this has been fostered by our own inventions. We invented tools and then promptly used them to kill each other and lay waste to our environment. Science is great until it gets into the hands of people ? until it gets into the hands of the corporations hell-bent on making a buck at any cost ? until it gets out of the lab and is perverted by the masses. Science can no more separate itself from the Second World War and Hiroshima than can Christianity from the Crusades. Science has given us the ability to destroy this planet and is utterly devoid of any ability to deal with the one thing that is driving Global Warming and everything else that threatens us on a global scale ? Human Selfishness.

In the face of cataclysmic climate change we cannot give up our self indulgent lifestyles. In the UK the government has just refused permission for a wind-farm that would generate electricity for 100,000 homes ? because it bowed to the ?not in my back-yard? brigade. These people would rather see it scuppered than ?do their bit? for the environment. The USA continues to do what it wants and damn Kyoto. China is developing at an incredible pace and India won?t be far behind ? joining in the destruction of the environment like the rest of us. And in England, (where we all know as much as anyone else that if we don?t change we are doomed) we are moving to driving SUVs by the thousands. How will science really save us? How will what is done in a lab somewhere deal with the human consumer?

I find your faith in science and rational thought as our saviour, to be as bankrupt as you feel my faith is.

Almost everything Jesus said challenged our selfish natures. The message was to subjugate our own wants and desires to the greater good and put physical possessions in their place, instead of being driven to acquire them. This has always been seen as a needless suppression of everything we want to do that is enjoyable, but in fact goes right to the heart of the human condition and is now the one thing that society needs more than anything else ? the ability to grow up and realise that there is a price to be paid if we continue to have everything we desire. I know many Christians who live a frugal existence and who try to resist the all powerful consumerism that is devouring us.

I did not drive a car until I was thirty, but went everywhere on a bicycle. I bought a car when I became married. This was because I wanted to do my part in reducing carbon emissions. I know the non-religious do this also, but I personally wouldn?t have done it if my Christianity had not given me the framework of going without for the greater good.

How is science going to change people?s behaviour? Bush denies the need for Kyoto and puts his faith in science to give us technological solutions but it will be too little too late. And even with all of the needed technology in our hands we will still be selfish ? we will still think we can have our cake and eat it. What can be fashioned in a laboratory that will change that? How will knowing Pi to 10,000,000 decimal places change that?

What does science say of compassion, mercy, selflessness or justice?

I am not saying we do not need scientists ? far from it, and science is an incredible endeavour that will play an enormous part in righting human affairs ? but it will not get us the whole way, and people who believe it will do so are as guilty as anyone of an arrogant and blind faith.

As for ?I dunno maytey?s? new age science, it is a pick and mix feel-good rubbish that allows you to believe and feel warm and glowing without any of the cost of Christianity that demands that the true believer dies to their own needs and lives to others needs instead. You can be new age and do anything you please and believe anything you please. I do not see this as Christianity?s equal on any level.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Chaoslillith

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/05/06 09:37 PM

DA,

I wasn't stating that astral travel is or is not valid, I was just stating that the ideas and practices of altering realities through meditation or drugs have been around for centuries longer then what you stated.

Your stating the fact that life expectancies were shorter overlooks several things. For instance, we now have better means of birth control which lengths the lifespan of women almost automatically, many European countries lacked and actively avoided proper sanitiation methods believing that bathing was bad for you whereas most aboriginal people knew better. Living in an untamed wilderness will also knock off quite a few years as will lack of modern convienences. I never stated that herbs and herb knowledge was a cure all.

What I was trying to point out by using the term miraculous, which is used by ethno-botantists when they describe some of the cures they are finding, is that science is proving to us ignorant and arrogant Westerners that there is a lot to be learned from the past

Catholicism in it's desire to be the only religion has repressed and is still repressing ancient healing knoweldge because it is still considered the property of "evil devil worshippers"

I have posted two of many links I could find that discuss this topic. As you read more about holitic medical treatments that are becoming more popular because in many cases they are just as effective with less side effects you find that the treatments are tied into Eastern philsophies or the aboriginals belief system and so I say again that science is validating ancient religious knowledge and beliefs.

herbs

diabetes
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/06/06 04:52 AM

Blacknad wrote:
"At the centre of my faith lies an historical figure that I find to be unlike anyone else found in myth or legend."

How can you say that. Jesus Christ, as depicted in your bible is EXACTLY like that found in myth and legend. He is taken, almost verbatim, from The Epic of Gilgamesh.

And given this fact you are left with nothing.

Blacknad wrote:
"I believe in a made up God and from my perspective you worship science and have a blind faith in humanity?s ability to right all things."

Au contraire mon ami. I am not that big a fool. I have no misconception about humans being able to right anything and never have I said anything that could possibly lead you to such a statement. I think us well on the path to self-destruction and a return of the unlucky few to living in caves.

Blacknad wrote:
"In the face of cataclysmic climate change we cannot give up our self indulgent lifestyles."

Which one might point out is clearly present in our so-called socially responsible religious organizations.

Blacknad asks:
"How is science going to change people?s behaviour?"

Prozac!

Sorry to be flip but how has religion changed people's behavior? No more prostitution? No more gambling? No more drunks or drug addicted souls? No more crimes against persons and/or property? Name one thing religion has actually accomplished.
And I mean accomplished as finished, done, achieved. Doctors (SCIENCE) wiped out smallpox. All of the priests, rabbis, imams, and holy fathers never once actually cured a disease. When polio is gone you will not find the Nobel Prize in Medicine going to the Vactican will you? And we all know it. Something even you must acknowledge.
Penicillin has save more lives than Jesus. Penicillin was not the result of prayer or divine revelation. And that too you must acknowledge.

When religion, any religion, can point to something, anything, and say "Mission Accomplished" it will be the dawn of a new era. And again, don't point to the insignificant few that are helped while ignoring the equal or greater number hurt. I want to see religion do as much good as the average ER surgeon. That's right ... scrape a bleeding body up off the pavement and heal it.

We will never ever see it.
And you know it.
And that fact alone should cause you to rethink the precarious nature of your belief system.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/06/06 05:11 AM

Chaos wrote:
"I was just stating that the ideas and practices of altering realities through meditation or drugs have been around for centuries longer then what you stated."

I'll not argue the fact that ignorant people have been doing stupid things for a very long time They have been committing rape since the dawn of time. That does not validate the practice.

Chaos wrote:
"For instance, we now have better means of birth control which lengths the lifespan of women almost automatically,...."

Please tell me your IQ is higher than this. I hate trying to debate someone whose IQ barely approaches room temperature. You can't find a medical journal to support such nonsense as one need only look at much of the third-world today, where life expectancies are low, to see the major cause of low life expectancy is infection and malnutrition.

But don't let facts stop you from marketing your belief system to the gulliable out here.

Chaos wrote:
"What I was trying to point out by using the term miraculous, which is used by ethno-botantists when they describe some of the cures they are finding,"

I was wrong above. Your IQ is not approaching room temperature. I was one of those Ethno-botanists and you would know that if you read what I wrote. All of the discoveres of modern medicine based on ethnobotany have been performed by those of us that are Western trained scientifically inclined, and capable of understanding the difference between a double-blind study and an anecdote. You are a fool.

Chaos wrote:
"Catholicism in it's desire to be the only religion has repressed and is still repressing ancient healing knoweldge"

It is not. This is pure nonsense. For all of its faults this is one area where the Catholic Church can not be faulted.

But go ahead ... prove arrogant science wrong. Cure malaria. Maybe with Cinchona Bark or bear fat or by chanting things you don't understand.

Chaos wrote:
"As you read more about holitic medical treatments that are becoming more popular because in many cases they are just as effective with less side effects"

What you posted is anecdotal idiocies. Not a double-blind study, not a statistical analysis, not a peer reviewed journal paper, and a lot of poor stupid people suffering for their ignorance.

You should be ashamed of yourself for being a hypocrite.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/06/06 01:23 PM

Prozac!

Sorry to be flip but how has religion changed people's behavior? No more prostitution? No more gambling? No more drunks or drug addicted souls? No more crimes against persons and/or property? Name one thing religion has actually accomplished.


REP: Soma - that's the best thing on offer. Welcome to 'Brave New World'. But we already have that with TV and Xboxs. Huxley was no fool.

And you should study the Welsh revival of 1904. A majority of the UK Welsh population became Christians within a 10 month period.

Judges were left with nothing to do. The Police started to form Quartets to sing at weddings because there was so little to occupy them. You could literally go to your local policestation and book them to sing. The whole society was transformed beyond any recognition.

Almost a textbook experiment to see if Christianity actually has any substance when lived authentically.

Nothing else in the history of humanity has had such a transformative effect upon a population, and that includes Prozac.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Chaoslillith

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/06/06 01:50 PM

Ok DA,

If religion was not repressing knowledge how is it that during much of European history they preferred to use leeches, cut holes in people's heads to "release demons" instead of learning from the Orient who they traded with for centuries? Europeans have always felt that anyone who was not white or Catholic was inferior and their knowledge was useless.

I will provide you with more links at a later date re: ethnobotanists and what they are learning and I am sure that they will meet your standards.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/06/06 11:20 PM

In response to: "Prozac!" Blacknad wrote:
"Soma - that's the best thing on offer."

Have you ever taken Soma? Probably not. Perhaps some reading is in order. The nauseau is as intense as with chemotherapy. If that's a religious experience you can count me out.

Blacknad wrote:
"A majority of the UK Welsh population became Christians within a 10 month period."

I know my history. There are entire countries that changed religion in a single day. Most people value their necks.

Blacknad continued:
"Judges were left with nothing to do. ... The whole society was transformed beyond any recognition."

To what we see today. The most impoverished part of the UK where everyone is Christian and suffers all of the same vices as the rest of the Brits.

Has it dawned upon you that there is a reason why things are as they are? Are you going to blame it on the fact that people hated everything being near perfect, Satan, or the fact that maybe your facts are slightly amiss.

Blacknad wrote:
"Nothing else in the history of humanity has had such a transformative effect upon a population, and that includes Prozac."

Two thoughts:
1. Prozac lasts longer.
2. Obviously you've never been to Wales.

I'll send you a postcard ... plan to be there in May for at least a week for a nice young lady's 90th birthday party. She's a real treat. Especially when she's out on a fox hunt.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/15/06 04:20 AM

Dan wrote - "Have you ever taken Soma? Probably not. Perhaps some reading is in order. The nauseau is as intense as with chemotherapy. If that's a religious experience you can count me out."

REP: I was likening Prozac to Soma, as in 'Brave New World'. Just commenting on the eery likeness of your offer of Prozac as a solution, to the use of Soma as the opiate of the masses in BNW.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/15/06 04:29 AM

And you can't dispense with Wales at the turn of the century.

Real Christianity broke out and crime became almost non existent. Again, Judges barely had anything to do.

You may think Christianity can achieve nothing, but it achieved something for the lives of those people living in Wales during that period.

"When it comes to morality, atheists tend to be very quiet about what role atheism plays in shaping their personal morality. You won't find atheists saying that their atheism was influential in getting them off of drugs, stopping their alcoholism and ending their addictions to pornography, gambling, or any other personal moral fault. The fact is that atheism has no power at all to change personal morality (in a positive way)."

"From a societal viewpoint, atheists are generally not involved in helping the economically and socially disadvantaged. Of course, there are some exceptions, but in general atheists tend to be involved in legal/legislative issues, if any at all, to the exclusion of the needs of the poor and uneducated. The truth of this statement was never made more clear to me than last Christmas. A local church, the Dream Center, in downtown Los Angeles sponsored an outreach to the 500 neediest blocks in South Central Los Angeles. Ten thousand Christians volunteered to deliver food for families and toys for their children on December 23, 2000. I cannot be sure that there were no atheists at the event, but all of the 60+ people in our bus were Christians. Where were the atheists? Why should they be involved in helping the poor? There is no atheistic moral dictate that would require or even suggest that atheists should help anyone."

- from www.godandscience.org

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/15/06 01:07 PM

Blacknad wrote:
"Just commenting on the eery likeness of your offer of Prozac as a solution, to the use of Soma as the opiate of the masses"

The phrase "opiate of the masses" as I presume you know refers to religion.

Blacknad wrote:
"You may think Christianity can achieve nothing, but it achieved something for the lives of those people living in Wales during that period."

A period that lasted how long?
That ended because?
That exists nowhere else today. Why?

Blacknad wrote:
"The fact is that atheism has no power at all to change personal morality (in a positive way)."

And why should it? Christianity doesn't either. For every success story you can point out I'll show you a Slobodan Milosevic.

Blacknad wrote:
"From a societal viewpoint, atheists are generally not involved in helping the economically and socially disadvantaged."

Nonsense. Utter and complete nonsense.
Ignoring what I have personally done. A friend of mine just got back from Guatemala donating her time, and that of her two 20-year-old children, to work at a medical facility. They were involved in helping more than 1400 people receive surgery and dental care. Would you like a longer list? I'll put my list up against yours any day of the week.

People do not behave well or poorly because of their religion. Religion has had essentially no effect on behavior. We all do good and bad things every day. And then we justify them, or absolve ourselves of responsibility as we see fit. Your method is Christianity. Someone else's method is vodka. In the end nothing is different except that one involves claiming the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus were involved and keeps lying to children.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/15/06 08:49 PM

I knew that would go down like a lead balloon.

I know a good many Christians, but a great deal more atheists. Virtually every Christian I know is involved in charitable works for the disadvantaged. I hardly know any of my secular friends who are. Most of them are too busy trying to earn as much dosh as they can to afford the latest plasma TV etc.

Maybe the people I know are unrepresentative - but I don't think so.

Your anecdotal evidence versus mine. The point is that it's a Christian duty to give to and serve the needy.

You can only damn religion because you don't get to see the innumerable good acts carried out quietly by Christians across the globe.

Blacknad.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/15/06 08:52 PM

"Religion has had essentially no effect on behavior."

- Is this just your opinion or do you have some basis for saying this? Maybe a peer reviewed journal somewhere ;-)

Regards,

Blacknad.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/15/06 08:54 PM

And with the ten commandments - you are right.

There is obviously an issue with them.

Need more time to look into it.

Luckily I'm signed off work with a severe chest infection, so I have some time on my hands.

Blacknad.
Posted by: rlb60123

Re: Proof that God did not create life - 03/15/06 09:20 PM

Dear all,
To make an argument either way to whether God exists or not you must take all things into account. Science doesn't take God into account because science doesn't ask the question "is there a God?" Science asks "how does existence work?" Religion on the other hand asks "is there a God and who is IT?" Is there existence, Yes. How does existence come about, UNKNOWN.
The Big Bang wasn't observed, did it happen?
To say that religion is irrelivant because of something science said is untrue. There are many theories in science that postulate the existance of a God.

I am under the inclination that to know whether there is a God or not you have to SEEK God. If you want to know science you have to SEEK science.

Seeking means having an open mind, just like scientists should have an open mind.

Does anyone comprehend the size of the universe.
Look in any quadrant of the sky with a telescope powerful enough and you will look 13 billionish years into the past. How long did it take for the universe to get to that size from a Big Bang? Knowing that what you see 13 Billion years ago is Galaxies that look no different than Andromeda only farther away. How long did it take for Andromeda to Form? 5-15 billion years.(big guess there) So Galactic systems 13 billion light years away showing structures that are similar to Andromeda put the age of the Universe somewhere beyond 13 billion years by 5-15 billion years. What does that have to do with whether God exists or not? NOT one thing.

Seek God to know if there is a God, because science can't answer questions that science doesn't ask.