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#11492 - 07/21/06 01:50 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"it would also be the same if we were falling into the center."

No it would not. Read a book.

jjw wrote:
"you should find the distant galaxies expanding along with the universe."

You should not any more than you should see expansion happening within a galaxy. The force creating the expansion is less significant over short distances than is the force of gravity.

That may change in the future if the reported acceleration proves to be as real as it seems.
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#11493 - 07/21/06 04:48 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Posts: 1089
again what does this have to do with the fact that the farthest galaxies are moving away faster then the closer ones. according to what you wrote they cant. yet its shown that they are. explain how they can without changing your tune again.

oh, yea that's right, your the emperor here and you have decided that this thread is not about what was asked in the first thread. for that reason you can discuss and cuss anything you want. well discuss the subject or dont post. ill ignore anything that is not in about this subject any more. since you cant discuss the subject, that means ill not have to bother with your rubish any more.
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#11494 - 07/21/06 05:16 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
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dehammer wrote:
"again what does this have to do with the fact that the farthest galaxies are moving away faster then the closer ones. according to what you wrote they cant."

I haven't the slightest idea where this your comment came from. What were you reading? Certainly not what I wrote.
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#11495 - 07/21/06 05:35 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
you said that there is no inside and no outside. therefore during the expansion everything would have to expand at the same time, all of it in the same place. either there is an inside that is not moving as fast as the outer edge or everything came from the same part, ie, the leading edge. or are you trying to say were still in the big bang?

according to all the theories that i have read, at a certain point, it all began to seperate, some of it not moving as fast as others. this means it could not have been in the same part of the expansion. if it had been in the same part of the expansion, it would have gone out homogeniously, and everything would have been in a leading edge, causing us to have a spherical expansion. its not spherical, were not all on the leading edge. that means the material was not all in the same part of the expansion. some was on the leading edge (outside part) and some was on the inside.

the only other solution is that everything was in a single point, so small that it makes and ameba look like a galaxy, and suddenly, in the blink of an eye exploded to several light years. all the theories that i have read said that it took quite some time to reach that size.
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#11496 - 07/21/06 05:48 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"you said that there is no inside and no outside. therefore during the expansion everything would have to expand at the same time, all of it in the same place."

Why oh why oh why do you refuse to just go to the library, pick up a book, and read it?

You wrote "therefore during the expansion" I didn't: It is not what I wrote. Your "therefore" is drawing, yet again, an invalid conclusion. Perhaps you can find someone else to explain it to you for as far as I am concerned YOYO.
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#11497 - 07/21/06 07:21 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
You wrote "therefore during the expansion" I didn't: It is not what I wrote. Your "therefore" is drawing, yet again, an invalid conclusion. Perhaps you can find someone else to explain it to you for as far as I am concerned YOYO.
the term "therefore" frequently means that the following is a corollary of what was said before. you did not say it, but it was a corollary of what you did say.

the fact that you refuse to go beyond that point shows that you did not think your statement though. so, lets get back to the first question.

why does the farthest galaxies move away faster than the closer ones?

what is your answer?

or are you only able to tear down any explanation that other people come up with.
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#11498 - 07/22/06 02:54 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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what i expected.
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#11499 - 07/22/06 06:36 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"or are you only able you only able to tear down any explanation that other people come up with."

Anyone that reads my posts knows that I am quick to praise real science and those that apply synapses to a discussion. And equally quick to point out total nonsense.

I have zero tolerance for someone incapable of acknowledging when they make a mistake. I have zero tolerance for someone asked to support a statement refusing to post, even once, a reference link. I have zero tolerance for pseudo-scientific babble. I have zero tolerance for pontification of willful ignorance.

Perhaps the reason I have good discussions with soilguy and others, and not with you, relates to what you post and/or your inability to communicate in the English language.

When I provide an explanation for something and you take it, twist it, and then post back something that is totally different it does not lead me to think of replying with anything other than a verbal brick.
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#11500 - 07/22/06 09:01 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
so where was your explination here. it did not exist. it seldom exist. only the insults exist here.
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#11501 - 07/23/06 12:26 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
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Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
To quote Samuel Johnson:

"Sir, I have found you an explanation, but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

YOYO!
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#11502 - 07/23/06 12:43 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
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Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
DA:
Your response.

"jjw wrote:
"you should find the distant galaxies expanding along with the universe."

You should not any more than you should see expansion happening within a galaxy. The force creating the expansion is less significant over short distances than is the force of gravity."

This is a good surface directed response but I am not sure it gives a fair consideration to the issue. "Space expands" but some how objects in that space do not. Gravity is more potent than space is the alleged answer!.

The controling known relationship between the effects of gravity in space is the inverse square rule. Can you envision space expanding by some means wherein a vacuum is enlarged and is made to envelope a larger voluum while the vacuum betwen particles remains the same? Does the density of space within the non-expanding Galaxy increase in some way creating a special island of matter in a more diffuse surrounding area?

I know what you mean and I would argue the same way if it was my duty to defend the concept. As a real life thing it seems a little unreal.
jjw

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#11503 - 07/23/06 12:55 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
To quote Samuel Johnson:

"Sir, I have found you an explanation, but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

YOYO!
no, what you gave was a new age mumbo jumbo about none existance as an attack on my explination. you gave no explination about anything, save your own ignorance. that was plenty understandable.

you have no explination, only bs about how no one can understand your nonexplinations.

i gave an explination to which you gave something that translated to "it does not exist, it did not exist and will never exist. there is no universe". that is not an explination. its an avoidance of an issue.

before you start trying to claim you did not say this, let me remind you that you said

"there was no inside

there was no outside"

if there is no inside and no outside there is nothing there. even a dot has an inside and an outside. therefore a dot exist. there was a sphere of something the phsysisit cant describe, but they have a certain size to it. if it was a sphere, it had an inside. if it had an inside, then there was an outer edge to it.


UNLESS you want to claim that it occupied all of space. if it did how did it expand. if it did occupy all of space there is no space for it to expand into now, so we have to be shrinking and falling into the center.

since this is as unlikely a scenerio as can be created, the odds are most likely that there is someplace for the expansion to go into, which means there is an outside and there always has.

therefore every "explination" that you gave in the time since has been totally without merit as all you were doing is making noise.

now, yoyo, give us a real explination of why the universe is expanding faster in the far reaches, or admit that you have nothing. you have given no explination of any kind, save that bit of mumbo jumbo about nonexistance.


jjw, why would a galaxy expand. what creates a galaxy is gravity pulling material together. the farther away from other parts of the galaxy things get, the weaker the gravity. same with solar systems. same with planets, same with starts.

to try to explain it in simple terms after the material from the big bang began to turn into matter and energy, (they cant explain what it was in the first few seconds of time after the bb) it started pulling stuff together to create stars and such. these stars started pulling on each other, but they had to much energy to be pulled together in the first period. they seperated (by processes i dont began to understand) into groups that began to spin around each other. as these groups seperated they began to pull on other groups less. then those groups got beyound the point where they would pull each other very much. instead they were only able to pull on the material they had already captured. now those groups of material are galaxies of stars. they still pull on other galaxies but only weakly. the farther away the galaxies get the weaker that pull.

on the other hand the stars are with in the gravity range of other stars and thus can keep pulling on them. thus they dont expand, and according to some theories will eventually be pulled into the black holes near the center of the galaxies.

the reason the solar system does not expand is the same reason. gravity pulls the material closer while it is within the pull of the other material in that solar system. according to one theory ive read, the sun will one day swallow up all the material of the solar system. albet another theory is that the sun will go nova first.
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#11504 - 07/23/06 04:55 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
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Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi Dehammer:

Please note That I am well aware of the effects of gravitation and have been such since childhood. Please do not assume the issue behind a question has overlooked the obvious.

I, for this purpose, accept that there may be an expansion of the universe (while otherwise doubting) and by accepting same in the manner offered expect that ALL of the space within that universe is expanding. What you hit on is that the very space occupied by a Galaxy can expand while having no visable effect on the conents of that expanded space. That, to me, is not such an ignorant question to be skimmed over.

If you carry it to the extreme each Star and each planet and each dust clould would now occupy an area in space where the "density" of gravitation has been reduced, a bi product of expansion. The potential individual expansion of the parts creates a new measure of gravitation where the objects are larger, the distances are larger and put together simply provide another form of physics.

To conclude that gravity permits objects in an expanding space to be unaffected what happens to Einstein's Hypo of gravity warping space? Does it warp expanded space the same as our "ordinary" space? I do not need a response if you want to argue gravity some more.

jjw

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#11505 - 07/23/06 06:45 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
jjw wrote:
"Can you envision space expanding by some means wherein a vacuum is enlarged and is made to envelope a larger voluum while the vacuum betwen particles remains the same?"

I too find the explanation somewhat weak but it is the current state of physics.

However to answer your question I am going to do a bit of an intentional waffle by suggesting that the answer may well lie in something else for which our explanations are less than adequate: dark energy and dark matter.

It seems very likely that the distribution of dark matter corresponds to that of "normal" matter and that dark matter does not exist in the inter-galactic expanses. Perhaps the answer lies there.

Also keep in mind that we are not talking about space but rather space-time. Perhaps time is warped in ways we don't fully understand. And then, of course, there is the fact that if I alter the speed of light I can simulate any degree of expansion I wish. And the force of gravity, perhaps, can remain constant.
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#11506 - 07/23/06 10:34 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
OK DA: It is beyond ready conclusion, we agree!!
jjw

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#11507 - 07/24/06 08:07 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by jjw:
Hi Dehammer:

Please note That I am well aware of the effects of gravitation and have been such since childhood. Please do not assume the issue behind a question has overlooked the obvious.

I, for this purpose, accept that there may be an expansion of the universe (while otherwise doubting) and by accepting same in the manner offered expect that ALL of the space within that universe is expanding. What you hit on is that the very space occupied by a Galaxy can expand while having no visable effect on the conents of that expanded space. That, to me, is not such an ignorant question to be skimmed over.

If you carry it to the extreme each Star and each planet and each dust clould would now occupy an area in space where the "density" of gravitation has been reduced, a bi product of expansion. The potential individual expansion of the parts creates a new measure of gravitation where the objects are larger, the distances are larger and put together simply provide another form of physics.

To conclude that gravity permits objects in an expanding space to be unaffected what happens to Einstein's Hypo of gravity warping space? Does it warp expanded space the same as our "ordinary" space? I do not need a response if you want to argue gravity some more.

jjw
sorry if that sounded like i was talking down to you.

the point is that its not the vacuum that causes expansion, its the initial pressure from the big bang.

vacuum does not exert more pressure on a star or a solar system just because there is more of it. beyond the point where the vacuum exist there is no more pressure to cause stars or solar systems or galaxies to expand.

at the same time, once one galaxy is beyond the pull of another, there is nothing to slow it down. Or more presisely, there is very little to slow it down, since its is believed that gravity waves of the farthest galaxy is still being felt on earth. its just that over the extreme distance, it is hardly felt, and has little effect on the speed the galaxy had when the big bang shot everything out.

stars in galaxy are within the gravity range of all the other stars in that galaxy, but only rarely will a galaxy be within the range of another. Ive seen pictures and artist rendering of what is happening to two that happen to be in each others range. they are exchanging stars frequently (in the time-line of the universe). by claiming that the material of the universe should be spread out, you saying in effect that gravity has no effect or that there is some force that is at least greater, but there is no evidence of.
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#11508 - 07/24/06 10:04 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"the point is that its not the vacuum that causes expansion, its the initial pressure from the big bang."

No! No! No! and No!

There was no pressure. No physicist I know has ever used the word pressure to discuss it other than with refence to a children's-level explanation about blowing up a balloon. For pressure to be involved one would need to have space with high pressure surrounded by space with a lower pressure. There was no other space.

We can not teach you physics one post at a time. Please try reading a book.
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#11509 - 07/25/06 01:29 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
i did not know they changed this to the metaphyical forum.

the term pressure worked as well as any thing else at this level of discussion (unless i happen to accidently get into a forum populated strickly by people with doctorates of physics: if so please tell me where did you get your doctorate, and why are you teaching oracle instead of physics). Im sure there is a high lvl physics term for what they had at that point.... oh, yea, they dont have any understanding of what was going on at this point do they. its beyound the understanding of our level of physics to explain what was going on in those first few seconds. therefore there cant be any scientific terms for it. Unless you happen to be god, which begs the question, why dont you tell us what was going on in those first few seconds. please explain what cause the expansion if it was not related to pressure.

since you are god, why not explain how the material from that big bang was able to expand at all if there was nothing except it. If there was no space for it to expand into, there could be no expansion. the entire universe would be that single point where the big bang originated.

if you have evidence that there was no space outside of the big bang show the reference. if you dont, admit that this is just hoky poky, mumbo jumbo intended only to make it look like no one else has any intelegence.

if you have some reference that explains what cause the material of the universe to go outwords, give that reference or admit you just made it up.
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#11510 - 07/25/06 05:40 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"i did not know they changed this to the metaphyical forum."

With apologies Rose but there is a synapse loose somewhere that needs a FedEx to Texas.

This is physics ... not metaphysics dehammer. Read a book. I am no longer going to play this game with you.

-----------
the more this man realizes the level of willful and wanton ignorance among some the more he realizes that our education system has failed.
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#11511 - 07/25/06 11:13 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
Anonymous
Unregistered


IF our education system has failed then let this forum be a place where people can come to amend their education, without being put down or insulted for their ignorance. Ignorance is curable, stupidity is terminal. By coming here and admitting ignorance a person has taken the first steps toward enlightenment. Do not belittle them for that.

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