Re: Final testing
Posted by yoohoo on Jun 12, 2002 at 04:07
(61.183.175.112)Re: Final testing (yohoo)
learn to read...
you said...
You ask: "doesn't that mean that we are at the center of the Universe?"
no, he did NOT ask that...he was quoting the article that you referenced in the upper paragraph... his comments are in the following paragraph
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don’t run off yet...read carefully below and try to offer a thoughtful, reasonable response...okay okay, just a response
here is what bothers me about these analogies (eg whether you use the balloon with dots on it and blow it up or whether you use the rising loaf of raisin bread)
in these illustrations every dot or raisin always moves away from any/every other
however, southern man (say, which way is the beach :-) says that we are "moving at a very high speed with respect to the CMB toward the Virgo Supercluster" and maybe it was andy that, most recently, pointed out elsewhere that we are on a collision course with andromeda(?)...you in particular, dano, agreed that this was so (at least in andy's(?) case)
you summarily dismissed the problem (and no one else seemed to protest) with something like *we will move into and through one another and continue expanding...* or something very close to that
but i don't care how one desires to twist it, or spin it, or in what esoteric astrophysical terms one would like to couch it...these two concepts cannot both be true...it is impossible
either we are all moving away from each other via expansion (or inflation if you prefer) as is illustrated in the balloon and raisinbread analogies...or at least some of us are moving toward one another (as is apparently observed rather than purely theoretical as in the case of inflation)...in which case something is dreadfully wrong with the models :-)
i have raised this same problem (at least it's a problem for me) on this board at least twice previously over the years...i have also raised it elsewhere...and no one has yet proposed anything resembling even a mildly adequate reply
anyone care to give it another try
at least southern man posits a center of sorts...but it still doesn't answer the question above
if we are travelling toward another object or objects or they are travelling toward us, then the only logical conclusion ultimately is crunch time (some kind of big crunch scenario)
dano says, "...but anthropomorphic concepts based on our experiences on earth are useless "
then what are we supposed to use...i'm all for thinking outside the box...but 10/11dimensions can NEVER be anything more than a purely mathematical and theoretical model...we can almost surely NEVER test it...we can NEVER NEVER experience it...and i fear that much like statistics, math is far too manipulable...what comes out the back end is highly dependent upon what goes in the front end...and our evolutionary cosmological and astrophysical friends have already plugged in huge numbers of assumptions and axioms (unproven and unprovable assumptions)...so talk to us folks...show us the error of our ways in something like comprehensible language
btw -- our local group is allegedly part of the virgo supercluster ...perhaps southern man meant that we are being gravitationally drawn by the virgo cluster rather than supercluster as is suggested here (see virgo cluster in the text below the graphics)
in any event the problem remains...either we are moving toward one another or we are moving away from each other or we are not moving at all and/or we are clueless in regard to what is actually happening :-)
and the same is supposed to be true for individual stars as well...not just galaxies or galactic groups or galactic clusters or superclusters
abtw...if the universe is expanding (or again inflating if you prefer) in every direction whether equally or unequally, regularly or irregularly then the point at which it first began to expand or inflate or the point of the initial big bang or whatever size the so-called singularity or universe might have been anytime after say 10 -43 to say 10 -6 (roughly three minutes after the bang), then it should logically have a center, assuming at least 3D/4D
or whenever the first string popped into existence out of nowhere (when NOTHING got busy and became SOMETHING :-)
if you wanna go to *m-branes* or *p-branes*, why aren't we living in flatland...how would one get more than two real (practical) dimensions out of them
at least in the loaf of raisinbread there is a definite center...i would suggest that there is in the balloon as well, but most would suggest that space is a fabric like the surface of the balloon and disregard the center area entirely, but that brings us back to essentially 2D existence in flatland again...and the only expansion possible would be along a single plane (as in a brane :-)
wheeeeeeoooouw...my head hurts...with all of this twisting and entangling :-)
please...just try to answer the first half first...you can ignore the second half entirely if you like