hmm
Posted by anyman on Apr 18, 2002 at 13:25
(202.110.178.110)Re: Gee, anyman.....CALBOS (Contains a little bit of science) (Sparrow)
first, i am glad that you “finally understand the problem inherent in the Theistic Evolution postulation”
that statement alone makes my time on this board over the years worthwhile...not that it wasn't already worthwhile for all that i have learned and enjoyed here...but more worthwhile all the same
second, i’m not sure that i entirely understand the questions you are asking or the points that you are making...that said, i will do my best to address at least some of what i think you are getting at
this very common problem of election/predestination stems from the tenets best expressed by john calvin
the concepts (as expressed by calvin and those that adhere to his teachings) are grossly false...and extremely dangerous...but they are essentially as follow:
t otal depravity
u nconditional election
l imited atonement
i rresistable grace
p erseverance of the saints
(commonly referred to as “tulip”)
for a quick summary of these points of doctrine one can go...
here for a favorable view of calvinistic doctrine
or...
(these sites are for reference only...i do not necessarily endorse any or all things at either site)
i will not treat this at great length here...we can consider it further in email...the refutations are numerous for each point
in short...the problem is that most folks look at the individual as being elect or predestined...to do so misses the point
the church (of god, not the church of man) which is his body of which christ and no other on earth is the head (ephesians 1.22-23) is that which is predestined for salvation...the church/body is that which is elect
all of those outside of the body/church are predestined for eternal condemnation
like noah’s ark, which was intended as a shadow (type)...those in the ark were saved...those outside were condemned
today, those in christ (in the body/church) are predestined for salvation...they and only they are the elect...those choosing to remain outside of the body/church are predestined for eternal condemnation...and those who choose to abstain from choosing or never make the choice to be in the body, choose not to be in the body...it’s a black and white thing...no gray, no halfway
when one chooses to respond to god’s love and accept the gift of eternal life (romans 6.23), the gift of the holy spirit (acts 2.38), all of the spiritual blessings in the heavenly realm in christ (ephesians 1.3), then that person is added to the church/body...take special note...one does not join the church of god...one may join the church of man...but when one follows god’s plan/pattern for entering the church/body, it is god that adds that person to the church...there is no voting by men...there is only one “vote” and it is cast by god alone
once added, that person is in the church/body and is thus one of the elect, predestined for salvation as part of that vessel that was predestined to carry the elect safely through to eternal salvation
it is only as a part of the church/body that the individual is predestined or can be said to be one of the elect (**see analogy below)
so added...there one shall remain...no one...not even satan himself can remove them...however...
the individual may, as a creature of choice, choose to remove himself from that predestined church/body of the elect...should that individual make that choice...god, being consistent with himself and his law will in the final judgment spew that person out of his body (in the way, not dissimilar, that the human body rejects or ejects things that either don’t belong or no longer belong in it via vomiting...cf revelation 3.17ff)
in other words...”once saved, always saved” is another false teaching...but we can save that can of worms for another day
** an analogy (which like most is probably not entirely adequate, but should work for the purpose of this discussion)
assume that there is a law, assume that at the time the law is instituted, there are none that have yet broken it, assume that the judge is perfect, assume that the law is consistently and rightly applied (obviously the latter two assumptions are impossible in the human court, but...)
the law says that any human that murders another must in turn as a direct consequence be put to death within one week’s time...
the law has in effect designated a category (muderer(s)), which at this point is potential because there are not yet any murderers...once there is a murderer or more than one, then the category will be actual
one who then enters or is added to that category (ie murders another) is then predestined to die as a direct consequence of breaking the law within one week’s time...as part of the body of murderers he is then among the elect that are predestined to die according to the law
the example is the negative that illustrates the positive and negative...those that enter the category “in christ” (ie are among the elect in the church/body which is predestined) are predestined to have eternal life etc with god because the church/body is predestined to be saved for such a life...those that are not among the elect are predestined for another destiny because they are not part of the church/body...in a real sense, they are among the elect that are predestined not to enjoy all the spiritual gifts in the heavenly realm in Christ...but will instead suffer eternal separation from god etc
when you say “the moment” you make a reference to the confines of time...his foreknowledge is outside the of time and was before time existed...however, if you are looking for a moment in time when people are elected/predestined, that moment would be when they respond obediently to the gospel and he adds them to the church/body...thereby placing them among the elect in the predestined church/body
it is in this sense and this sense only that an individual is elected/predestined
when we choose to respond...he responds accordingly by adding us to the elect, the predestined body which is his church
foreknowledge does not remove the power of choice...he does however know who will make which choices
hope that helps
Follow Ups:
- I love tulips Bubba 27/4 19:20 (0)
- Re: hmm DA Morgan 18/4 15:57 (2)