Re: the universe is ~6kyo

Posted by Southern Man on Jun 13, 2002 at 09:04
(209.102.128.114)

Re: the universe is ~6kyo (anyman)

“..but still doesn't deal with the failure of the balloon and raisinbread analogues”

The balloon and raisin bread analogies are just that – analogies. They fail when getting into the detail that is bothering you.

“further if we are moving toward andromeda (or vice versa) and we are then together moving toward virgo, albeit at different speeds, then where does that stop...are we and andromeda and virgo all moving toward something else... “

Yes. The automobiles moving toward Cleveland are also rotating around the earth’s surface while rotating around the sun while rotating around the galaxy while moving toward Andromeda while rushing toward Virgo. This is the concept of a frame of reference. I seem to be sitting still in front of a computer screen but I am actually moving at very high velocities when viewed from other perspectives. If we choose a frame of reference of the center of mass of ourselves, Andromeda and Virgo then that reference is moving toward something else.

“in other words, we can't be the only ones...this must be happening many times over elsewhere with other objects...the net effect being that a big crunch scenario is still the ultimate end”

Whether we end in a crunch or an ever expanding bang (or we don’t end or we never began) must be examined from a universal perspective. We see colliding galaxies in space. Just because two galaxies collide doesn’t mean that all will any more than seeing two cars colliding means that all cars will eventually collide.

“the other remote possibility is that there are many *cleavlands* (or a washington, new york, chicago, denver, dallas, new orleans, atlanta, miami, etc toward which all of these different trajectories are moving together”

Yes, my analogy was only applicable on a small scale. The stars are all moving toward different ultimate destinations viewed from a universal perspective. And their directions are always changing due to gravitational attraction. As the Earth rotates around the sun we first go one direction and 6 months later we are going in the opposite direction. But we are still rotating around the galaxy and going toward both Andromeda and Virgo at the same time.

“big crunch, …”

Yes, the water is very deep at the far end of the pool. But the end result must be that whatever theory is ultimately proposed and/or accepted it must agree with the observed universe. We see stars rushing away from us. Therefore any theory must posit a scenario where stars would appear to rush away from each other. Quantum mechanic seems very counter-intuitive until you back off and look at what it is really saying and then see if that agrees with what you observe. When you see that it doesn’t really conflict with what you see and it makes even more sense in things you saw that didn’t make sense before, then you accept it. And this applies to all “theories”.