Originally Posted By: Bill G
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Originally Posted By: Orac
For revlgking where does GOD fit in ... wherever a person wants it to fit in.

Science is about study of physical observation and facts and if a divine body exists they can make and break whatever science they want. Hence religion lies outside science as even our personal view is somewhat outside science which is causing us so much angst.
Another well stated summation of the problem. Bill Gill
Bill G, I suspect that when Orac says--and correct me if I am wrong, Orac--that religion, which is a very person-based phenomenon, and our personal opinions are somewhat outside science, he does not mean that they must be enemies of one another. All he is doing is stating it as a fact. I think that the way we personally perceive what is going on, physically, is a challenging and interesting problem--one looking for a solution. Working on and finding a solution could help us have to less angst.

Orac--again I say, correct me if I am wrong--as an example of what it means to have a personal point of view, here is how I heard what you said to me. Here is my personal perception, in my words + your words, of your recent post:
Quote:
It is entirely possible that our universe is a construct, and there does appear to be things--beyond our current ability to detect--outside it, which I would believe is the current mainstream view.

I hear you say: I am telling you explicitly: Neither the Big bang, nor any other phenomenon of physics, can neither deny, nor affirm, the existence of god.

Why do I say this? because our world is not as hard-wired and set as our human mind perceives. Personally speaking, that is what I was talking about.

PROFESSIONAL OPINIONS--are valuable, but can differ
EXPERT OPINIONS--again, valuable, but can differ
LAY OPINIONS--same as the above
COMMONSENSE OPINIONS--not always held in common
LAWS--are opinions codified
ABOVE ALL--misunderstanding and miscommunication--can happen in all categories, and can lead to serious conflict.

Interestingly, our word 'laity' comes from the Greek word, laos. It means the people, the mob, the crowd, the community in general).

For example, professional astro-physicists accept the Big-bang phenomenon of the creation of the universe, as we know it, as a confirmed theory. Lay people--often armed with ignorance--who know little about science and theology, will often jump to the conclusion that all scientists reject the value of religion and vice versa. Not true. As in all fields, wise people usually, and with an agape-based attitude, leave their options open.

Few educated religionists believe that there is a one true 'god'--like the one we read about in the first two chapters of Genesis--one who created the universe, as we know it, in six literal days, and rested on the seventh. Again, some do, and some don't. There is no such thing as one true theology. As the following quote makes clear, there is great flexibility, especially among those well-educated in the Bible as literature, in science and in theology.
Quote:
The Big Bang hypothesis is widely known in popular thought as the best explanation for how the universe came to be.

However, very few people know that a Catholic Christian priest formulated this theory in the late 1920s. Reverend Monsignor Georges Lemaītre, a Belgian scientist, challenged the conventional thinking of his colleagues, including Albert Einstein, and rejected the static universe hypothesis for a dynamic model. In the course of carrying out his research, he confronted illogical thinking that pitted faith against reason, and science against the Church. His legacy extends beyond cosmology, to the nature of truth itself.
You see, the BIG Bang theory was actually proposed by a Christian priest--Father Georges Lemaitre http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8847 Read more of his story in Wikipedia.

THE HISTORY OF SCIENCE--Of course there were and are atheist and agnostic thinkers, but the history of religion is also replete with the stories of great religionist thinkers from all faiths--Jewish, the great Eastern Religions, Christians, Muslims and others, who contributed--and are still doing so--so much to the growing body of knowledge (our philosophies, sciences and the arts) on which we base the laws of by which we live day to day.
Orac, you conclude your post with comments about the Big Bang and future of our Sun and its children, the
Planets: In reality, it was just an another event in space. just like
Quote:
our sun will blow up one day.

Hmmmm ... never thought about it that way before. I guess that for layman that would be the end of the universe, because the world as they know it would end. But from point of view of professional physicists the universe, as a whole, would go ticking along quite happily without our puny little solar system.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org