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paul Offline OP
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sorry orac

I was in the middle of that part when you posted
your last reply.

you may want to delete it or just leave it.

what a sniffy website this has become , writing this alone
has taken 5-10 minutes , cpu running @ 103%


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No problem.

Small housekeeping note something went wrong with your or Bill G original mathematics as 1 kg at 706,944.44 m/s doesn't equal 50MJ.

The conversion for Kinetic Energy at 100% efficiency is 1/2MV^2

50MJ = 1/2 x 1 Kg x V^2

simplifying

50x10E6 Joules = 0.5kg x V^2

V^2 = 100E6 m/sec

V = sqrt(100E6) m/sec

V = 10,000 m/sec

So 1 Kg at 10,000 m/s (36,000kmph or 22369.36mph) = 50MJ

Last edited by Orac; 12/23/15 12:56 AM.

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paul Offline OP
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I wasn't converting , I used the "for comparison" on the
wiki rail gun page.

Quote:
For comparison, 50MJ is equivalent to the kinetic energy of a
school bus weighing 5 metric tons, travelling at 509 km/h (316 mph).


in other words the 50 MJ is the energy that is used to launch
a projectile from one of the US Navy rail guns.

didn't know the weight of the projectile so I used the info
that the page did supply.

its in my post.



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Edit: corrected this forgot the half.

KE = 1/MV2

1/2 * 5000kg * 141m/s * 141M/s = 50,405,000 joules

5 metric tons at 509 km/h is 50MJ

So that bit is correct .. you botched something in your conversion

Last edited by Orac; 12/23/15 01:11 AM.

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paul Offline OP
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then we can safely say that action and reaction holds
true in this case.

I think your maths a little wrong there orac.

you forgot to multiply by 1/2 the mass.

.5 mv^2 = apx 50MJ
I get 49,702,500 J





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Haha you replied before I fixed the original calc is right at 50MJ.

Last edited by Orac; 12/23/15 01:12 AM.

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Found the error
Originally Posted By: Paul
1 ton @ 2545 km/h = 706.94 m/s
((509,000 m/h * 5 )/ 3600 seconds)

Not correct that has the same momentum but not the same energy

Background: Energy-Momentum relationship

Last edited by Orac; 12/23/15 01:20 AM.

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paul Offline OP
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how are you getting the 50 MJ +
Im getting under 50MJ @ 49+ MJ

you must be entering the numbers wrong or something.


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1/2 * 5000kg * 141m/s * 141m/s = 50,405,000 joules

Straight from 1/2 x M x V x V

Last edited by Orac; 12/23/15 01:25 AM.

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You can see the problem with this statement

1 ton @ 2545 km/h = 706.94 m/s

Run the calc

1/2 * 1000 * 706.94 * 706.94 = 249,882,081.8 joules

So that is closer to 250MJ of energy because of the increased speed it's 5 times the other value

Last edited by Orac; 12/23/15 01:29 AM.

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paul Offline OP
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your calculator must be ready to toss.

or just rusty.

are you using .5 for the 1/2 ?


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paul Offline OP
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orac the @ symbol points to the mass in the list.

5 tons , 1 ton , 1 kg

as in

5 tons traveling at 509 km/h

1 ton traveling at 2545 km/h

1 kg traveling at 295,000 km/h


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LOL no just the operator is getting old and had 142 stored in memory rather than 141 ... got what you were saying smile


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paul Offline OP
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I thought it had to be some quirk or something
because you had the right maths and numbers there.

anyway , Im clocking out for tonight.


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Working your numbers to energy

5 tons traveling at 509 km/h = 0.5 * 5000 * 141.389 * 141.389 = 49.97MJ

1 ton traveling at 2545 km/h = 0.5 * 1000 * 706.9444 * 706.9444 = 249.88MJ

1 kg traveling at 295,000 km/h = 0.5 * 1 * 81944.4444 * 81944.4444 = 3357MJ

Not one of those contain the same energy, you can't simply divid the mass and multiply the speed as there is a square in there. You went from 50MJ to 3357MJ (if my maths is right and calculator working smile)

That is why as they say speed kills in a car crash the energy is a square of the speed.

You are holding the momentum the same but not the energy if you divid one and multiply the other by two. The last case would do significantly more damage if it ran into anything.

Last edited by Orac; 12/23/15 01:57 AM.

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paul Offline OP
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your right.

so the correct calcs would be.

5 tons traveling at 509.116 km/h = 0.5 * 5000 kg* 141.421 * 141.421 ms = 49.999 MJ (50 MJ)

1 ton traveling at 1,138.417 km/h = 0.5 * 1000 kg* 316.227 * 316.227 = 49.999 MJ (50 MJ)

1 kg traveling at 36,000 km/h = 0.5 * 1 kg* 10,000 * 10,000 = 50.00 MJ (50 MJ)

quite a big difference , thanks for pointing that out.

theres plenty of room there to continue with the 10 km/s launch velocity.


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paul Offline OP
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Orac
there still seems to be quite a difference in the
energy found in the momentum between the three calcs.

lets assume we are using up the 50 MJ as the
rail gun accelerates the projectile down a
1 meter long track in 1 second.

1 Newton meter = 1 Joule

one joule is defined "mechanically", being the energy transferred to an object by the mechanical work of moving it a distance of 1 metre against a force of 1 newton.

p=mv
p = 5000 kg* 141.421 ms = 707,105 Nm = 707,105 J
p = 1000 kg* 316.227 ms = 316,227 Nm = 316,227 J
p = 1 kg* 10,000 ms = 10,000 Nm = 10,000 J

where has all the energy gone?

so from my last post we have the same exact energy
50MJ
that produces three different results when calculating
the three different momentums of the three different masses
and their three different velocities.

707,105 Nm = 707kJ
316,227 Nm = 316kJ
10,000 Nm = 10kJ

http://www.convertunits.com/from/newton+meter/to/joule

shouldn't the energies be the same?

why are the energies different?

in physics things are supposed to be proportional
when dealing with forces and energy and distances
and time and mass.

I don't like to use the kinetic energy formula for this
reason.

I prefer to use p=mv (momentum)
and f=mv (derived from the mass and velocity of an object)
and f=ma for the force that causes acceleration of a mass.

f=ma holds true

if I want to accelerate a 5000 kg object to
a velocity of 141.421 ms in 1 second over a
distance of 1 meter.

707,105 N = 5000 kg * 141.421 ms^2

but KE = .5 * m * v^2 does not hold true.

I would not need to supply 50MJ to accelerate
a 5000 kg object to a velocity of 141.421 ms
in 1 second over a distance of 1 meter.

if I did use 50MJ the 5000 kg object would accelerate
to 10000 ms in 1 second over a distance of 1 meter.

here too theres a really big difference.

lets just consider that the rail gun being described
in the article is extremely energy wasteful and that most of
the energy used up is converted into heat.

and the kinetic energy formula is not the way to find the
energy required to give an object its velocity because of
the energy lost during acceleration from friction and resistance.

energy that certainly hasn't gone into the object.

so since the physical world is more perfect than our
usage of math to predict how things move in it , I
suppose we just need to pick the math that seems
to be more valuable from the choices that we have.

or invent our own.




















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