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paul Offline OP
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I found this on the Internet today and thought I would share it
and comment on it.

http://www.charpan.com/expanding-universe-violates-conservation-laws


Quote:

 It is one thing to compress all matter to a single infinitesimal point, since it is still considered to exist as matter at that point; and quite another thing to compress all of matter’s momentum into that same point.
Angular momentum tends to zero for even the largest conglomeration of mass that is spinning or orbiting, as either its rotational radius or its orbital radius approach zero; requiring that there would be no momentum for any matter residing at a singularity of zero radius;----


I don't think it would be correct to say that the momentum of everything is compressed as
everything comes to a single point.

Most of the momentum will go to zero through interaction with other objects.

There would however be some momentum that is not zeroed out after everything reaches that point , depending on the distribution of everything in the universe , but that point would still have motion.

Quote:

---; so whatever force is causing a singularity must transfer the motion being lost, as matter enters or resides at a singularity, to some other matter or into electro-magnetic energy.


the motion/momentum is not transferred it goes to zero through interaction with opposing motion/momentum.

Quote:

So, for mass to expand from a singularity in a big bang scenario we are forced to consider that momentum would be created out of nothing; leaving us to ask, how or by whom is this momentum being created?


the expansion from a singularity is caused by the force of the big bangs outward explosion.
So we are not forced to consider anything except the initial force of the bang.

As for the acceleration of everything in the universe
the additional momentum is not created out of nothing , the additional momentum is the result of
a loss of mass.

I think we have a problem with our logic , were trying to force nature to adhere to theories.

I cant see where any laws are being broken simply because the universe is expanding and accelerating.




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The article you reference is factually wrong on several levels all of which are probably to technical for you to follow Paul, but lets just say he is wrong at science on a massive number of levels.

Lubos Motl did a rather good technical reply aimed at Phil Gibbs blog.

Here is Phil Gibbs article
http://blog.vixra.org/2010/08/06/energy-is-conserved/

Here is Lubos response
http://motls.blogspot.com.au/2010/08/why-and-how-energy-is-not-conserved-in.html


The answer science mainstream takes is most definitely the one Lubos gives and that is probably going to go over your head.


The problem with all your whacky stupid physics is you don't really think things thru before typing blatantly stupid answers


Consider this blatant stupidity that a child can see the problem with

Originally Posted By: Paul

Most of the momentum will go to zero through interaction with other objects.


There is no friction in space for example little voyager 1 and 2 are sailing off to leave our universe and assuming they doesn't hit anything which is highly unlikely given the space in the universe they will travel on forever

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_2


The odds of voyagers running into anything like a sun and getting captured is 1 in billions and they have plotted its path out for thousands of years. Voyager 2 is known to have an encounter in 40000 years from now

Originally Posted By: JPL

Voyager Two, 40,000 years from now, will pass within 1.7 light-years of the red dwarf star Ross 248. But what that really means is that Ross 248, sweeping by Voyager Two like a distant ocean liner viewed from a lifeboat.


There is no sign of them slowing down or losing any momentum along with all the calculations and maths on comets and other celestial bodies showing the same feature.

So only you would be stupid enough to propose that we ignore all the data and evidence to the contrary and believe Paul because he has a feeling momentum is lost somehow in space by interactions.

Science doesn't make arguments on garbage that ignores all data we leave that to religious nutcases and science whack jobs.

Last edited by Orac; 07/06/13 09:00 AM.

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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
Science doesn't make arguments


well real science takes the time to understand what a subject is about before it blast its inability to comprehend all over the universe , orac.

when I wrote the following that you commented on it was about
when all there is that is in the universe comes together in a
single point.

Quote:
Most of the momentum will go to zero through interaction with other objects.


its obvious you didnt comprehend the article I posted or
you didnt comprehend the overall reply that I made to the article.

the first line in the quote that I posted should have given
you a clue , should have and to someone who can comprehend
as they read it would have.

Quote:
It is one thing to compress all matter to a single infinitesimal point


and this quote from my post should have written it in stone.

Quote:
I don't think it would be correct to say that the momentum of everything is compressed as
everything comes to a single point.

Most of the momentum will go to zero through interaction with other objects.


so as you say , it just flew over your head , not that that
would be unusual.

the fact that you didn't even understand what you were replying
to when you replied has forced me to not reply to the majority
of your garbage.

read the article again and this time read it sober.

for someone as ignorant as yourself to claim that others are
stupid really means nothing to me , I just consider the source.

you brandish intelligence as if you possess it.

LOL


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In other words its just another pile of absolute garbage from a religious nutter without a clue ... right?

So we just throw out all observations and data and believe you because your religion is so reliable and trustworthy .... ROFL ... did I really use religion and trustworthy in the same sentence.


Think we covered it all more garbage that doesn't deserve any attention.


Last edited by Orac; 07/06/13 04:55 PM.

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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
Think we covered it all more garbage that doesn't deserve any attention.


I can honestly say that what you have added to this discussion
has been garbage , but that's expected.

So you must think that you , being the garbage man deserve attention.

I think that you and people like yourself are afraid of people like myself, you know that your fantasy science and your QM is a pile of rubbish, and the people like myself who focus on reality terrify you because of your faith in fantasy science and QM.
And that's why you resort to your trolling about religion.
Your scared of ideas that are reality based , because you know
that your reality is fantasy.

I noticed that you were becoming more and more upset with bill because his reality based science was obstructing your attempts at converting his reality based science into your fantasy based science.



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No Paul what I love is your ideas that you love to share that have exactly these 3 qualities

1.) Completely wrong in the face of all data and experiments

2.) Based on some crazy idea that has absolutely no actual basis

3.) That have a flaw so large that a child can see



Therefore they define stupidity in a post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupidity

Quote:

According to the online Merriam-Webster dictionary, the words "stupid" and "stupidity" entered the English language in 1541. Since then, stupidity has taken place along with "fool," "idiot," "dumb," "moron," and related concepts as a pejorative appellation for human misdeeds, whether purposeful or accidental, due to absence of mental capacity.



The only conjecture left is whether

A.) you are intentionally trying to mislead .... that is lie and deceive ... and act that would send a religious nutcase like yourself to hell

OR

B.) the absence of mental capacity


Choose Paul which is it A or B.

This has nothing to do with QM or any sort of science it's a straight logic argument about the garbage you write being obviously wrong what I think of your pathetic little GOD and religion has nothing to do with it.

My views on the stupidity of your religion aside at a logical level I am also certain that if there is an all seeing all intelligent GOD he is going to look at your lies and deception and send you to hell because a GOD doesn't tolerate such things either .... so you may say I am doing GOD's work for him in my posts.

Last edited by Orac; 07/07/13 12:27 PM.

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paul Offline OP
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what gets me about you and your type orac, is that you
always shout out that your right and that we are wrong.

but you never can produce any type of logical explanation
of why you think your right.

when I say that the reason that the expansion of the universe
is accelerating is due to loss of mass.

here are two really simple, really real, real science facts.

the conservation of momentum remains intact.
the conservation of energy remains intact.

and that scares you , you know that any argument that your
fantasy science presents goes in the face of these two unbreakable laws.

you must have been a really stupid kid orac , as you want to
talk about how kids can see so many things the way you see them.

when do you plan on growing up and leaving the fantasy world behind where it belongs.



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Originally Posted By: paul

but you never can produce any type of logical explanation
of why you think your right.


does the fact that it works count as a logical explanation?

Originally Posted By: paul

the conservation of momentum remains intact.
the conservation of energy remains intact.



But at various times on SAGG you have said that those 2 things are wrong. How do you resolve this conflict between your statements?

Bill Gill


C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.
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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
does the fact that it works count as a logical explanation?


I suppose you are talking about QM or the related fantasy science.

if so then give me an example so that we can examine it and
determine if it really does work.

Quote:
But at various times on SAGG you have said that those 2 things are wrong. How do you resolve this conflict between your statements?


I believe I have said that it is the misconstrued interpretations of laws that are wrong.

not that the original laws are wrong.

if you know of a feasible reason why a star would
accelerate then lets hear it , but lets keep it feasible
we all know
(those of us that do not follow fantasy science)
that space is not expanding and causing the acceleration of stars , that is a stupid reason for stupid people.

can you name the force that the proposed expanding space
hypothesis places on / against a star that would cause any such acceleration on a star?

or is that force a imagined / fantasy force?

remember there must be a real force involved to accelerate
a real star or the proposed hypothesis would be breaking original laws.

what would the moment of inertia be for our tiny star?

and everything that it drags along with it?

something else to ponder.

is the mass of all stars proportionate to size?

so that the area that any proposed or imagined force would
apply to a star in order to accelerate the star , would accelerate two stars of equal size that have unequal mass
at the same rate of acceleration?

if the two stars are the same size then the same force is
applied to the surface of the two stars so the acceleration cannot be the same if the two stars have different mass.

unless the expanding space hypothesis has developed a method
of applying different force amounts to objects that have the same size and different mass.




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And the funny thing about your whole argument above is science totally agrees with you EXCEPT the part where you think that is science theory.

What you have described above is your religious crazy attempt to understand what science position is and its totally wrong ... totally wrong.

Science doesn't believe any of that garbage either so you at least past a small mental ability test so I guess your answer above was (A) you lie.

See the problem Paul you don't exactly know what science theory says because you won't bother following the logic because you feel science puts your whole religion and god in peril you just make up what you want as what science thinks.


Have another go see if you can actually put down what science says about expansion of space ... dare you to actually try and learn.



Until you can correctly put what science says as theory you can not argue it is wrong

Last edited by Orac; 07/08/13 02:41 AM.

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Quote:
And the funny thing about your whole argument above is science totally agrees with you EXCEPT the part where you think that is science theory.


are you saying that the expanding space hypothesis has been found to be correct , or has it been determined to be correct by those who somehow believe its possible?

from what I understand a fantasy, make believe, new science science term called dark energy or dark matter or dark something is fantasized to be the force that is pulling on space and due to sciences newly found ability to enforce the incredible, stupid people believe the crap.

it even claims that its some kind of anti gravity.

dark gravity perhaps? WHY NOT !!! might as well.

all because science no longer has the ability to think logically about anything , so they must use fantasy to explain everything.

if it isn't sensational , dramatic , exciting , then it
wont be interesting and science needs to maintain its ratings
in the movies.



Quote:
According to the Big Bang model, the Universe expanded from an extremely dense and hot state and continues to expand today. A common analogy explains that space itself is expanding, carrying galaxies with it, like spots on an inflating balloon. The graphic scheme above is an artist's concept illustrating the expansion of a portion of a flat universe.



an expanding balloon requires a force.

only a actual idiot would believe in a flat explosion.


Quote:
Until you can correctly put what science says as theory you can not argue it is wrong


even if I have never read the theory and someone tells me that something physical is happening in the universe and explains to
me the reason that they think the happening is happening.

and their reasoning is that the galaxies are not moving , and the reason the galaxies appear to be moving is because space is expanding.

that's like a grenade explodes and you see arms and legs flying
off of people , and some idiot says the arms and legs are not
moving , the reason the arms and legs appear to be moving is
because the explosion is expanding.

I can rightfully question the force that drives the
motion of space.





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Congratulations Paul. When it comes to anti-reason/anti-science and sheer unadulterated stupidity, you take the prize. The fact that you are allowed to continue your incessant anti-science idiocy is a mark tolerance rarely seen outside of secular society. That comes at a price, though. There were once many science oriented contributors. Thanks to the likes of you, all but a very few have departed. Well done. Aren't you simply delighted?

Mods are welcome to delete this, but it has to be said.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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paul Offline OP
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I dont know red!

maybe its because this forum actually wants to allow the truth to be heard , unlike other forums.

and your right I have been banned from other forums where biased was dominant and any thing that flew in the face of so called science was not allowed.

that same thing most likely exist in the universities and colleges today , where logically thinking students question the
motive of illogical teachings.

but believe what you will, red , its your choice and has nothing to do with real science.

Quote:
There were once many science oriented contributors. Thanks to the likes of you, all but a very few have departed. Well done. Aren't you simply delighted?



science oriented contributors?

you mean those who have closed minds , those who do not
require any type of real scientific method in determination.

those who when faced with the possibilities that what
they have been taught might not be exactly the truth
and they leave because they want to continue thinking
the way they currently think , be it right or be it wrong.

Quote:
but it has to be said.


I agree , we should not hold back our thoughts on science
as we are forming what science will become in the future.



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You still have not yet expressed what science actually says Paul and yet you say it is wrong?

If you can't correctly understand something how can you say it is wrong, any child even molested by his priest or not knows that.

What your goat GOD told you the answer was wrong did it or perhaps it put it in a book for you .... oh wait let me guess you lost another book laugh

Last edited by Orac; 07/09/13 01:05 PM.

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Quote:
You still have not yet expressed what science actually says Paul and yet you say it is wrong?


science actually says that the reason that galaxies appear to
be traveling at and above the speed of light is because the
galaxies are being propelled by the expansion of space.

and that's all I need to know, to know its a big pile of crap.

what it seems like to me is that real science is taking a break
and its like real science went to the bathroom , and what you conceive science to be is what is being deposited in the toilet by real science.

all you can see is what you surround yourself with , which
places you right in the middle of the crap , and the crap prevents you from seeing any real science because the crap
is really thick and murky.

real science is relieving itself of all the crap it has gathered into itself because of people like yourself.

in fact you and people like yourself are the crap
of real science.

people who are more socially inclined than scientifically inclined are in charge now , those who believe that science
is what they make it , not that science is what nature makes science.

so if you consider yourself a true follower of todays science
vs real science then just go with the flow.

but will you be remembered as someone clinging to the crap
even as it was being squirted from the anus of real science , if you havent
passed the anus of real science yet it might be a good time to grab onto anything solid you can find before you find yourself
squirting down into the pile of crap that will need to be sent
to the waste treatment plant.




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WOW science is guilty of all that hey .. so if we are going to judge a discipline lets look at religion.


Lets see your rules say that a religions followers shouldn't do all sorts of things via it's commandments or rules but they do.

We have priests which are office holders in the religion molesting children.


So using your own logic how did you put it

Originally Posted By: Paul

and that's all I need to know, to know its a big pile of crap.



So everyone should immediately leave religion because it is rotten to the core and I am going to campaign on that.


I don't want to understand religion or understand how this came about, the above is all I need to know that religion breaks it's own rules and is crap.


Exact same argument done the exact same way ... it even has a name .... superficial argument.

Last edited by Orac; 07/10/13 01:28 AM.

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paul Offline OP
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But this discussion is not about religion.

your just too ignorant to know that.

and your an idiot.

Last edited by paul; 07/10/13 05:41 AM. Reason: clarification

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I used religion as an example to show a superficial argument .. but yeah the example was sort of fun laugh


Do you want me to get crayons and water color paint next time to explain it at your level next time I use an example?

Last edited by Orac; 07/10/13 08:22 AM.

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you forgot the playdough you have in your science books , I guess
that's where the problem began.

or was it the students before you who put the playdough there.

either way it does not matter what tools you have available to express an opinion , crayons , water colors , playdough , the important thing is the message that you are relaying to your audience.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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