Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 181 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 96 of 120 1 2 94 95 96 97 98 119 120
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
Quote:
If indeed something is broken or in need of therapeutic intervention. It might be useful to know (in human terms) THAT.... which you intend to apply human remedies.


Of course it would be useful to know, but for millennia people were aware that their bodies could be “broken” and that some remedies or treatments could ease the problems. They may have known little or nothing of the internal workings of the body, or why the remedies worked; they may also have been very hit-and-miss, but the fact that some worked establishes that underlying knowledge and definitions, although useful, are not essential.


There never was nothing.
.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
So in establishing a reference to pneuma and any therapy, is the reference point on the physical body or the underlying cause and affect to its health?

Obviously any reference to the previous statement of the Rev.'s claims to his cats longevity is suspect. Was the cats pneuma in trouble prior to therapeutic intervention, or was the body broken?
It may be the cat(s) was destined or predisposed to live a healthy life.

Obviously, anyone who is going to subject themselves to a belief system is going to find themselves solidifying their beliefs in the face of unsubstantiated facts within the personal idea of reality.

If we are going to be speaking interms of the soul or spirit, and any relationship to that, does one base the relationship on experience or on belief?

We've all had experiences with changing and conflicting beliefs, and it becomes all too convenient to judge the beliefs of others when it conflicts with our own. Take the recent discussion regarding snake oil and TM. Tho it works for others there was no hesitation to present the opposing thought and add personal judgment upon the opposing thought and belief.

Tho it works for some to just believe in circumstantial evidence to promote ones own ideas, it doesn't necessarily work for others.

Religion is founded on faith that God exists. The profits who inspired the faith in religion like Buddha and Jesus, spoke of their direct experience with that which they spoke of.
The religionists speak of their belief in what was said.

The great masters spoke of the approach to direct experience, but religionists believe such experiences are beyond mortal comprehension and experience. The results of the prescribed belief systems and the leaders of such prescriptions have in the past lead followers down a destructive path where one must accept what cannot be experienced or suffer the damnation of hell and brimstone.
Those who don't outwardly threaten, still live by their own judgments of the opposing beliefs and condemn silently.

Is it Possible to know and experience pneuma, or is it just somethinge to believe in?


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,490
E
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
E
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,490
Nothing is 'just something to believe in'. I think it has often been suggested that that our beliefs are the most important things about us as we make our way through life.

Even beliefs we specifically reject for ourselves may the bedrock of another's life, maybe even foundation of their sanity.

The problem of belief happens when a doctrine is imposed on others, often for their own good. It is indeed true that 'the way to hell is paved with good intentions". However for that aphorism to succeed you would probably have to believe in the existence of hell!

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Nothing is 'just something to believe in'. I think it has often been suggested that that our beliefs are the most important things about us as we make our way through life.
Sorry but I don't believe that. whistle
Personally I think belief is only a reflection of what we hold onto as a concept of reality. They don't define who we are, and life does not always accommodate fantasy or belief that is contrary to the greater reality.
I don't think those who subscribed to the flat earth belief, measured themselves by their superstition, tho others with contrary beliefs might offer a value judgment.
Originally Posted By: Ellis

Even beliefs we specifically reject for ourselves may the bedrock of another's life, maybe even foundation of their sanity.
Just goes to show you that if a person is only held together by their thoughts and they're interrupted, they would cease to be. cry
Originally Posted By: Ellis

The problem of belief happens when a doctrine is imposed on others, often for their own good. It is indeed true that 'the way to hell is paved with good intentions". However for that aphorism to succeed you would probably have to believe in the existence of hell!
Reminds me of the story about the person who mistakes a rope for a snake, has a heart attack and dies. Trying to impose the belief onto another is going to be subject to the nature of reality and ones ability to experience it for what it is...
Which brings me back to the question:
Is pneuma something that can be experienced, or just something to believe in. Do we impose human frailties upon it the same way religion imbues all of our human emotional weaknesses and judgments upon the Gods we believe in?


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Ellis, good points: I think you are talking about the philosophy of ideas and beliefs, which I agree are there to guide and help us, not to be imposed on us. This why I like the following:
PHYSICIST CUM PHILOSOPHER--Thomas Kuhn. He popularized the term "paradigm shift". I am not sure who first used the term or where I first heard it. But I vaguely remember using this "notable idea" in the mid 1960's. This was, when, with the help of other pioneers of the Family Life Foundation, flfcanada.com, I first started giving a series of lectures (1964.... & Now being podcast), which I soon began to call, PNEUMATOLOGY).
The lectures were based on my university studies about the philosophy and psychology of religion(s) and how they relate, holistically, to what makes us ill, or helps keep us well in body, mind and spirit.
=========================
Quote:
Professor Thomas Kuhn
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thomas Samuel Kuhn
Born July 18, 1922
Cincinnati, Ohio
Died June 17, 1996 (aged 73)
Cambridge, Massachusetts
Era 20th-century philosophy
Region Western Philosophy
School Analytic
Main interests Philosophy of science
Notable ideas Paradigm shift
Incommensurability
"Normal" science
Influenced by[show]
Influenced[show]

Thomas Samuel Kuhn (play /ˈkuːn/; July 18, 1922 – June 17, 1996) was an American historian and philosopher of science whose controversial 1962 book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions was deeply influential in both academic and popular circles, introducing the term "paradigm shift," which has since become an English-language staple.

Kuhn has made several notable claims concerning the progress of scientific knowledge: that scientific fields undergo periodic "paradigm shifts" rather than solely progressing in a linear and continuous way; that these paradigm shifts open up new approaches to understanding that scientists would never have considered valid before; and that the notion of scientific truth, at any given moment, cannot be established solely by objective criteria but is defined by a consensus of a scientific community.

Competing paradigms are frequently incommensurable; that is, they are competing accounts of reality which cannot be coherently reconciled. Thus, our comprehension of science can never rely on full "objectivity"; we must account for subjective perspectives as well.
====================

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn#Polanyi.E2.80.93Kuhn_debate
About Kuhn's very influential book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

Last edited by Revlgking; 05/16/12 06:17 PM. Reason: Always good to do

G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
Quote:
Sorry but I don't believe that.
Personally I think belief is only a reflection of what we hold onto as a concept of reality. They don't define who we are, and life does not always accommodate fantasy or belief that is contrary to the greater reality.
I don't think those who subscribed to the flat earth belief, measured themselves by their superstition



Obviously Ellis can correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t have the impression that she said that all our beliefs define who we are, which is what your comment seems to suggest. Your comment could be true, and still some beliefs might have a definitive role in our lives.

How do you define “the greater reality” in terms that do not involve belief?


There never was nothing.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Bill, I assume you are not talking to me, eh?

BTW, In your opinion, was Thomas Kuhn on the right path to truth?


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,490
E
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
E
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,490
Thank you Bill S. No, of course I did not mean we are only what we believe, but our beliefs do colour our actions. I think, TT, that you are equating belief primarily with religious belief, or belief that requires dogma and support from outside. I think that our personal beliefs (which can include religion) are what drive us. Poeple who have not got a strong sense of their own ideas and direction are often confused, upset and frantic, searching for beliefs and unhappy with life.

I am not passing judgement on the belief of others. Personally I think that some of the things people dedicate their lives to supporting and believing are barking mad, and definitely not for me. That's OK. Of course sometimes beliefs are dangerous, and paradoxically that is when we often realise the power of belief most.

We are, I believe, "the stuff that dreams are made on".* Indeed has not it been said that without our dreams we may lose our sanity. And what are our dreams if not based our beliefs?



* The Tempest Shakespeare

Last edited by Ellis; 05/17/12 12:26 AM. Reason: acknowledge Mr Shakespeare
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Thank you Bill S. No, of course I did not mean we are only what we believe, but our beliefs do colour our actions. I think, TT, that you are equating belief primarily with religious belief, or belief that requires dogma and support from outside. I think that our personal beliefs (which can include religion) are what drive us. Poeple who have not got a strong sense of their own ideas and direction are often confused, upset and frantic, searching for beliefs and unhappy with life.

Belief is belief, whether religious or....
Beliefs help to create reality on top of the underlying conscious impulses that are often hidden in the dream states. Impulses which create not only the body but the extension of that, in the world we see and experience. Our perceptions of who we are (as you say the stuff that dreams are made of) are often colored or distorted by our beliefs, AND.. our beliefs are constantly changing, both subtly and dramatically with our changing experiences in our relationship with the world around us.
What drives us keeps us breathing and evolving from our first breath. Beliefs about that drive, and who or what we think we are in relationship to what dreams are made of, is taken on as the construct of the ego is created and allowed to define reality thru the outward directed senses.
Originally Posted By: Ellis

I am not passing judgement on the belief of others. Personally I think that some of the things people dedicate their lives to supporting and believing are barking mad, and definitely not for me. That's OK. Of course sometimes beliefs are dangerous, and paradoxically that is when we often realise the power of belief most.

We are, I believe, "the stuff that dreams are made on".* Indeed has not it been said that without our dreams we may lose our sanity. And what are our dreams if not based on our beliefs?
* The Tempest Shakespeare

Reflections of Desire, which can be restricted by belief. Often desires that are unconscious. Desires created at deeper levels of conscious awareness than those that are known in sleeping, dreaming, and waking states of consciousness. Desires born of a consciousness described by enlightened individuals who experience a relationship with the essence of all that is.

Back to the question:
What is spirit or soul?
Can it break or be broken?
Is pneuma an idea based on a belief or on something tangible and experienced?
If as the Rev. Suggests, it is a relationship, is the relationship conceived in the imagination?
If so is the human intervention of therapy derived from a need for reinforcement of belief in principle and idea, or is it directed towards a repair of that which we relate to, or the object of our relationship?
Why does a cat need intervention? Does a cat need a human to define its relationship to spirit and the physical world as a human prescribes itself to reality by his/her beliefs?

The question does seem to be expanding itself doesn't it... wink


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
Quote:
The question does seem to be expanding itself doesn't it


As long as we can avoid establishing any clarity with respect to the terms we use (e.g. “the greater reality”) we will be able to expand in every possible direction ad infinitum.

Quote:
BTW, In your opinion, was Thomas Kuhn on the right path to truth?


What was it the man said? "What is truth?". smile


There never was nothing.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
The question does seem to be expanding itself doesn't it


As long as we can avoid establishing any clarity with respect to the terms we use (e.g. “the greater reality”) we will be able to expand in every possible direction ad infinitum.

What was it the man said? "What is truth?". smile

If everything is strictly relative to personal idealism, then science will always be relative.

Would a greater reality exist above and beyond relative belief systems?

Or is that just a belief?

Do you think a cat has beliefs that are relative to the human in its association to the world around itself? Thoughts like I'm a cat and the biped that feeds me and collects my poop is a human?

Maybe cats are atheists... cool


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
Quote:
Maybe cats are atheists


Or God!

Ours thinks he is; I think. laugh


There never was nothing.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
Maybe cats are atheists


Or God!

Ours thinks he is; I think. laugh
Something to consider while scooping poo from the litter box..


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
POST-PARTUM DEPRESSION--and, in my opinion all depressions of all kinds--as the following CBC (Canadian) radio program illustrates, is not a simplistic problem. That is, it is not one with a simplistic physical, or mental, or spiritual cause and/or a simplistic solution. It is, IMO, a holistically complex one--one having to do with how our essential human components--what St. Paul called (I Thess. 5) our soma, psyche, and pneuma (body, mind and spirit)--relate and interact in society and community.

Interestingly, the psychiatrist admits the complex nature of depression. However, instead of speaking of it as being a body (soma), mind (psyche) and spirit (pneuma) kind of complexity, she speaks of it as being a bio-psycho-social one. Of course I agree that our social and community relationships are very closely connected to who we are, spiritually. With this in mind, check out:

POST-PARTUM DEPRESSION--A HOLISTIC PROBLEM WITH A HOLISTIC SOLUTION

Tuesday, May 15, Matt Galloway, the host of METRO-MORNING--CBC radio, Toronto, spoke about postpartum depression with Dr. Ariel Dalfen. She is a psychiatrist and the author of the book "When Baby Brings the Blues", and head of the peri-natal mental health program at Mount Sinai Hospital External Site.


Here is the audio (runs 6:06)

http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=2235027530

Last edited by Revlgking; 05/17/12 08:51 PM. Reason: Always good to do

G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,490
E
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
E
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,490
TT You like to pick up hair-thin nuances. Mr Shakespeare and I wrote 'the stuff that dreams are made on' not 'the stuff that dreams are made of'. A very subtle but actually entirely different meaning.

The existence of a greater reality is a belief, (and I think that it is not 'just a belief' as for many it is the belief to which they dedicate their life).

I believe in neither a greater reality, having found this one enough to be to be going on with, nor the existence of a soul. And I do not think that animals have beliefs. Only we humans torture ourselves with existentialism.

Cat owners are in agreement then. Mine knows that the universe revolves around him, and thus it also includes the beings whose mission is to ensure the food bowl is full of yummy, crunchy munchies at all times. It would all be perfect if those beings would stop introducing ridiculous, fawning, servile canines that destroy the order that the superior felines spent years creating.

Last edited by Ellis; 05/17/12 11:53 PM.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT You like to pick up hair-thin nuances. Mr Shakespeare and I wrote 'the stuff that dreams are made on' not 'the stuff that dreams are made of'. A very subtle but actually entirely different meaning.

Semantics I suppose..
(Of/on) Dreams have beginnings and endings in the beliefs of the minds of humans and some believe they themselves begin and end with the birth and death of the body. Those who believe differently will argue, while somewhere in the creation of space and time exists an answer that supersedes the conflicting beliefs of humans identification with their present collection of experiences.
Ancient writings of immortality and the holy grail in the philosophers stone, NDE's, religion, science... all add to the conflicting ideas. While science explores the universe and continues to establish theories and testimony to greater realities of knowledge and awareness of the physical world, and spiritualists and philosophers search for answers to why we are here and ways to elevate compassion and love to eradicate suffering disease and war, others will accept that this is as good as it gets or give all responsibility to change the world around themselves to others or their belief that nature is in charge, taking all free will to be subject to the evolution of humanity and the changing universe, (or the sh*t happens rule).

Originally Posted By: Ellis

The existence of a greater reality is a belief, (and I think that it is not 'just a belief' as for many it is the belief to which they dedicate their life).

I believe in neither a greater reality, having found this one enough to be to be going on with, nor the existence of a soul. And I do not think that animals have beliefs. Only we humans torture ourselves with existentialism.
We all create the perspective reality that we live in.. The created reality around us we leave to the responsibility of others or we put upon ourselves the responsibility of co-creation with the forces of nature (whatever may be responsible for the creation of time/space and all that is perceived within it).
Either we are all right in the subjective determinism we live within, all wrong, or there is an objective reality greater than all the conflicting subjective idealisms created thru egoic filtering of limited perception.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Ellis, of TT's posts you say
Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT, you like to pick up hair-thin nuances....
Your comment reminds me of a comment in a speech, which was broadcast Oct., 1, 1939, by Winston Churchill. In his speech he mentioned Russia. Of it he said, "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma ..." I feel the same way about TT, and much of what he writes. smile


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Ellis, of TT's posts you say
Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT, you like to pick up hair-thin nuances....
Your comment reminds me of a comment in a speech, which was broadcast Oct., 1, 1939, by Winston Churchill. In his speech he mentioned Russia. Of it he said, "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma ..." I feel the same way about TT, and much of what he writes. smile
Shocker! shocked
Not every one will step outside of the box, into something unfamiliar.

Religionists are like that.. wink


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Ellis, YOU accused of being a religionist? I assume this is a joke?


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Ellis, YOU accused of being a religionist? I assume this is a joke?

Thoughtful of you to apply that to her... That is funny, but not so difficult that the idea can't be applied to just about anyone who defines themselves and the world around them by the personal system of belief.

She did assume when I mentioned beliefs that I was speaking in religious terms. So perhaps most think that any belief is religious in nature.

Let's see where she takes this now that you've applied what I wrote to her. wink


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Page 96 of 120 1 2 94 95 96 97 98 119 120

Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokÂþ»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5