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I read in 'The Universe in a Nutshell' that the current worlds most powerful computer is out-stripped in processing power by an earthworm. Why aren't scientists trying to find a method to use animal brains as processing machines?

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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob:
I read in 'The Universe in a Nutshell' that the current worlds most powerful computer is out-stripped in processing power by an earthworm. Why aren't scientists trying to find a method to use animal brains as processing machines?
This sounds like rubbish. Something like a bee, IIRC, has 500 neurons. Compare that with the number of transistors in an average PC (greater than 10^7).

With regards to earthworms, which are even simpler, when their brains are removed there is apparently no noticeable difference in their behaviour. This doesn't indicate huge processing power to me.

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That's interesting. Some years ago, I was reading in an AI book (can't recall which one) in which the author noted that we had finally achiveed computer programs that had the intelligence of an earwig.

By now, I suspect we've got some programs that are a good deal smarter, but probably still vastly far from what most people think of when they talk about "true AI."

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Another thing ... some scientists ARE using animal brains. I recall reading an article only a couple years ago in which a mouse had a camera attached to it and a teleoperated device hooked up to the pleasure center of its brain. When the mouse went in the "right" direction, it was given pleasure. The mouse was able to navigate through complicated mazes and the thought was that this might be useful for directing disaster recovery ... and much easier, cheaper, and more reliable than using robots. And this technology has been around for decades.

Not sure if the idea went anywhere.

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DietAnthrax,
neurons opererate on a more sophisticated set of rules than transistors do.

TFF, thanks for the info.

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Neurons are MUCH more complex than a simple relay/transistor

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20050523233706data_trunc_sys.shtml

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Sure, Kate. Neurons are more complex than a simple transistor. Balance this, with the speed of information propagation through the brain. The top speed of inter-neuron information exchange is 3 million times slower than electrical signals in a copper wire.

There are a hundred thousand transistors in an average PC for ever neuron in an Earthworm's brain. The propagation of information between these transistors is vastly faster than that for the Earthworm's brain. An Earthworm's behavior isn't significantly modified by having it's brain removed.

Do you still think Rob's "point" that an Earthworm has more processing power than a PC, is true?

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It's not my point, it's Stephen Hawking's

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Quote:
This sounds like rubbish. Something like a bee, IIRC, has 500 neurons. Compare that with the number of transistors in an average PC (greater than 10^7).
I think it is the number of connections, DietAnthrax, not the number of neurons that makes a brain/nervous system complex. A single neuron can make a huge number of connections (aka synapses). For example, the dendritic tree of a "Purkinje" cell in the human cerebellum makes 150 000 contacts with other neurons! So there are way more connections in the brain than their are neural cells (aka neurons).

Yeah, I also think the speed of conduction is an important point to consider.

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We cannot possible imagine the power of the human brain. The complexity of this biological wonder is far too great for us to understand at this present time. The difference between the brain, and an Itanium 2 is that the brain has the functionality to adapt and evolve with time, be self aware and learn. We cannot imagine the true computing power of something like the brain until we truly understand how a network of neurons store information and process it with the relative speed and reliability that it has.

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Quote:
Why aren't scientists trying to find a method to use animal brains as processing machines?
Analog devices are plagued by noise. Digital signals are internally coded to correct a low incidence of single byte errors and detect uncorrectable multiple byte errors.

A very large volume of animal processing occurs locally, independent of the brain. Insect walking is mostly not a concious act Your retina does substantial signal processing locally. Your reflexes are not brain-connected but instead loop the spinal cord.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Amara:
We cannot possible imagine the power of the human brain. The complexity of this biological wonder is far too great for us to understand at this present time. The difference between the brain, and an Itanium 2 is that the brain has the functionality to adapt and evolve with time, be self aware and learn. We cannot imagine the true computing power of something like the brain until we truly understand how a network of neurons store information and process it with the relative speed and reliability that it has.
It is almost certain that the human brain 'remembers' using minute chemical signals that are permanently locked into its synapses and neurons.
Its the combination of chemical signals which produce the visual(graphic)signals that we recall as memory.
Exactly as to how the brain can recall its visual graphic signals so fast, is a miracle of evolution.

I must admit that I firmly believe that the human brain will be overtaken by blocks of future "Itanium Processors" in the not to distant future.
Why? Consider the following simple scenario:-
You are asked to construct a shed, (the common garden variety)
The only reason you are able to describe, draw, or make such an object......is because you have actually seen a shed, read or seen a description of a shed in some Encyclopedia as a child.
Sheds encompass walls (type of material?) roof (configuration/slope?) window or windows, type of door, (method of opening?)fixings,(nails?). etc etc.
Another-words, the more information your brain has taken in since a child, about building/materials/
types of sheds. The better are you able to design and produce such an object.
If you never read the definition or never seen a shed during your whole lifetime.....You would be totally stumped.
I'm guesstimating most of us, will have prehaps 10,000 images of sheds within our brains, that we can call up. Including the site and layout as to where a shed might be placed, and what they might stand on?
No images...no sheds!. No images of a Bazonkla? Thats because there is no such thing.
If you are not taught, or hear about something, it won't exist in your brain.
Now the crunch part:-
If you feed into this super future block of Itanium Computers, EVERYTHING and I mean everything, that you have ever seen, read or heard about...You will have a computer at least equal to the cognitive powers of the human brain.
Yes the (computer) would have to tag a descriptive label onto every picture graphic it saw. Which would get easier after its first 1000 million items? How many items are stored in the human brain? 2 billion+? No you cant rem them all, but remembering just one item, can send you down the path of human rememberance, aka intelligence? I,m positive future computers will be able to do the same but better. Prehaps by using blocks of words, together with a chess type of algorithm, their retrieval rate would be 100%

Prehaps they may work slower, but their knowledge
when it came to invention and design, and prediction, would surpass the human brain.
Remember, IF they have absorbed all the knowledge that YOU have, and more, they WILL be classed intellectually human.


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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


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I was not focussing on the processing power of the conscious mind, as that can vary and ultimately relative to the processing time of CPUs (actually the Itanium is being phased out) is very slow. I was pointing out the amount of work our brain does sub-consciously. Not so much the mind, but huge amount of tasks and events which the brain carries out and regulates.

I believe that this is not a question of do we have the hardware? But more of when will there be software of a program, that becomes self aware. I'm talking about true artificial intelligence, the ability to not only work off data that it already has (which current computers do) but to adapt to new data, learn and ultimately become conscious. If we can do that, and couple it with the speed of computers in the future, then we will have a computer which has the cognitive abilities of a human, albeit much faster.

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an old link http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s138960.htm I believe they have gone further now. I studied electronics at reading and some facinating work there.
Check out this link
http://www.reading.ac.uk/KevinWarwick/html/project_cyborg_2_0.html

and this one http://www.cirg.reading.ac.uk/


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