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#3953 10/13/05 04:06 AM
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I have a question about free will, and it has to do with eggplants (aubergines). I happen to like the darn things, sliced, floured and fried, with just a blessing of cheese added after they come out of the skillet. Now, I know eggplant is not good for me, it contains solanins that exacerbate my polyarthritis, but I like the flavor and have good memories of consuming them in the family home. Yet, irrationally, I occasionally treat myself to an eggplant, knowing it will cause me joint pains all over.

My question is this: If I choose to eat eggplants, knowing they will cause me to suffer, am I engaging in an act of free will, or is there another explanation for my irrational behavior? And if it is not free will, what is it that drives people to do things they know are not good for them? Are simple pleasures really simple? wink

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#3954 10/13/05 02:57 PM
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A person can have a strong drive for something and yet abstain. Catholic preists, not the pedophiles, but the other vast majority of them, abstain from sex.

Recovering alcoholics (those who do not relapse) usually have a strong yearning for alcohol, but they abstain.

OTOH, it could be that not everyone experiences their drives in the same way or with the same intensity.

Nor is it entirely obvious that your behavior is irrational. You *enjoy* the things. I *love* spicy food - jalapenos, thai peppers, scotch bonnets - my favorites are habaneros. I like making salsa and sometimes I'll continue to pour the stuff way past the point of agony.

#3955 10/13/05 03:26 PM
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Quote:
If I choose to eat eggplants, knowing they will cause me to suffer, am I engaging in an act of free will, or is there another explanation for my irrational behavior?
You cannot be forgiven if you do not sin. Dominus et magister noster Iesus Christus dicendo [b]"Poenitentiam agite adpropinquavit enim regnum caelorum"]/b] omnem vitam fidelium penitentiam esse voluit." Luckily, you are born doomed and can only add to the burden.

Skinerian reward-punishment afferent-effernet conditioning will elevate you to von Sacher-Masoch's coveted Venus in Furs. Do what pleases you, then pay the piper and enjoy that, too. You'd like living in the Pilippines where they publicly extend this to its natural conclusion every Easter,

http://cellar.org/2003/cruc1.jpg
http://cellar.org/2003/cruc2.jpg
http://www.pilotguides.com/destination_guide/asia/philippines/san_fernando.php

Quote:
Are simple pleasures really simple?
Have you ever seen such happy people?


Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf
#3956 10/13/05 03:49 PM
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Ah, one of the great philosophical questions that science as yet does not begin to answer. Is there really such a thing as free will?

I will now answer this great unanswered question. Yes, there is such a thing as free will. But it is severely limited in scope.

What you do have is the ability to choose from among available options, which you recognize to be options. That is a certain amount of freedom, yes, but the trick lies in what you're allowed to recognize as options from which to choose.

Many actions are instinctive or deeply ingrained, and by definition do not involve free will or decisionmaking of any kind.

Noninstinctive actions require you to make a choice. But you can only choose from among options of which you are aware.

Your mind does not present options to you (unless you deliberately try to think of them) which are contrary to your own self interest. Or rather, what you PERCEIVE, at some level, to be in your self interest.

[All non-instinctive actions are something you consider to be in your best interest? Pshaw, I hear you say. What about true acts of altruism? What about a soldier throwing himself on a hand grenade to save his buddies? What about a fireman saving a baby knowing he will die doing so?

Yes, even apparently selfless altruism is considered, at some subconscious level of your mind, to be in your own personal best interest.]

So when you decide to eat that aubergine, you are choosing an option that is, on some level, in your own interest. It tastes good and it brings back good memories. Another option, not eating it, is also in your own interest because it avoids certain pain.

When you make your choice, you clearly place a greater value on the taste and good memories than you do on avoiding the pain. That may seem like a foolish choice in retrospect while you're experiencing that pain, but it was yours to make.


Bwa ha ha haaaa!!
#3957 10/13/05 06:00 PM
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UA: That is really gross! That borders on mental illness, in my opinion. But I guess there is no pain like that which is self-inflicted, hence my dilemma.

YAC: So is it free will, or just an assortment of choices some of which I am weak minded enough to find virtually irresistible? Free will or simply willfulness?

#3958 10/13/05 06:19 PM
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Free will is not free at all as I see it.
You eat the egg plant and you pay the price.
I eat egg plant with indifference.
I eat red meat and possibly get a gout attack.
I do it any way, just as you do with egg plant.

"There is no free lunch"
jw

#3959 10/13/05 06:56 PM
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Without "freewill" there is no personal responsibility because if everything is predetermined.. then how can one be accountable for their actions (or lack thereof)? OTOH if actions are random... then how can one be accountable for an action that "popped" into their head.
Many claim that, in order for a choice to be free in any sense that matters, it must be true that one could have done otherwise.
The philosopher John Locke also took the view that determinism was irrelevant. He believed, however, the defining feature of free will to be that we are free so long as we have the ability to postpone a decision long enough to reflect upon the consequences of a choice.
Since ultimately we die (except for those who believe in an afterlife) then I suppose we should do what is best for ourselves, our family and society..within the time that we have.

RE:God one approach.. compatible with non-Calvinist theology states that God is, in fact, not aware of future events, but rather, being eternal, He is outside time, and sees the past, present, and future as one whole creation. Consequently, it is not as though God would know that Jeffrey Dahmer (for example) would become guilty of homicide years prior to the event, but that He was aware of it from all eternity, viewing all time as a single present.
In conclusion I think that on a conscious level we do have more free will, but at a genetic level we have less.

Sincerely,


"My God, it's full of stars!" -2010
#3960 10/13/05 07:18 PM
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#3961 10/13/05 08:31 PM
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If there is no free-will, then determinism has strangely brought us to the point where we debate determinism.

Yet another crank:
What you do have is the ability to choose from among available options

REP: You cannot say this conclusively - where is the evidence that you have any ability to choose and are not just living under the illusion of choosing something, that was in fact just an unavoidable reaction to the last unavoidable reaction you were subject too?


Mung:
In conclusion I think that on a conscious level we do have more free will, but at a genetic level we have less.


REP: What would be the factor that makes the difference between limited free-will at a micro level and more free will at a macro level?

What do you mean by 'at a genetic level we have less'? Less or none? And if less, why not all, or none at all?


Regards,

Blacknad

#3962 10/13/05 11:21 PM
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Blacknad,

I do not think that the idea of free-will is cut and dry, black and white. That is why I did not use absolutes; and instead used relatives. An example of a lack of free will at the genetic level would be that the heart beats. This occurs without conscious thought.
But our genetic makeup predisposes some behavior, for example personality. Take someone with obsessive-compulsive disorder. This is a scientifically reasoned factual-genetic condition. The victim (lack of a better term) feels strong urging to perform behaviors that consciously they know to be irrational; even dangerous. Yet they can not stop. So what is occuring in this case? Their genetics dictate that they probably will have this condition, regardless of whether or not they consciously want it, or are able to control it.
Be that as it may.. We can define free-will as being able to have options, regarding a situation. And/or we can say that free-will neccesitates the notion that our actions have consequences, further that we can ruminate about those potential outcomes. Another facet of a free-will notion is Judgement.

I agree with much of what Yet Another Crank posted: "What you do have is the ability to choose from among available options, which you recognize to be options. That is a certain amount of freedom, yes, but the trick lies in what you're allowed to recognize as options from which to choose.
Many actions are instinctive or deeply ingrained, and by definition do not involve free will or decisionmaking of any kind.
Noninstinctive actions require you to make a choice."
Let's say it is a civilian bystander (and not a firefighter) saving a baby while endangering thier own life.. What goes through someone's mind in an emergency? Many times you hear "I did not have time to think; I just acted and did what needed to be done". Is this decision expressed from a genetic desire to preserve life (and society). Or is this a conscious decision that was subciously computed before the bystander became aware of the danger about them? Maybe both.
Adrenaline ~Adrenaline works as a neurotransmitter and has an effect on the sympathetic nervous system (heart, lungs, blood vessels, bladder, gut and genitalia). This neurotransmitter will be realeased by nervous stimulation in response to physical or mental stress and binds to a special group of transmembrane proteins - the adrenergic receptors. There are two kinds of adrenergic receptors: the - and -receptors.
Its effects are: increase in the rate and strength of the heartbeat, dilation of bronchi and pupils, vasoconstriction, sweating and reduced clotting time of the blood. Blood is shunted from the skin and viscera to the skeletal muscles, coronary arteries, liver and brain.
So you sense danger, your body reacts with adrenaline (without conscious thought) and then you "fight or flee". This demonstates how interconnected the conscious (concept of free will) is with unconscious human biology. Again, I do not see absolutes regarding free-will.


"My God, it's full of stars!" -2010
#3963 10/14/05 09:01 AM
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Mung.

I see what you are saying.

My next question is this (and I don?t want anyone to dig beneath my thoughts ? this is not about God in any way ? I am looking at it as a stand alone problem because it is interesting).

If we create an exact copy of this universe ? would both universes continue in the same way, remaining as exact replicas of each other? Or would they diverge?

Regards,

Blacknad.

#3964 10/14/05 11:14 AM
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If everything is just particles of matter following the laws of science (I think the term is 'universal laws' but I don't like this term because I believe in multiple universes) then the particles of matter that make our brains are no different. So, every choice we make and our awareness of these choices and basically everything we do, is still a product of these laws.

#3965 10/16/05 02:02 AM
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I think identical universes would be like identical twins. At the first moment, they share everything alike, all DNA is the same. Then as development proceeds, cell differentiation takes place, maybe one twin was blessed with a bigger share of blood from the placenta, various genes on various chromosomes switched on and off, change begins to creep in. Then at birth one is first the other second, differences in the time taken to birth make changes in stresses, oxygen supply, etc. Even though seemingly identical at birth, they diverge behaviorally. I think identical "multiverses" would soon diverge into distinctive and unique existences.

#3966 10/16/05 04:33 AM
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Originally posted by Amaranth Rose:
.............I think identical "multiverses" would soon diverge into distinctive and unique existences.
I am sure you are right Amaranth, and the same goes for individuals too. Returning to the world of your eggplant dilemma. You suggested that you aquired your eggplant taste when very young. Taste buds and smell, both develop very early on,
meaning that you are probably psychologicaly addicted by both. It seems that you require that 'mental rush' from occasionaly eating same, inspite of learning later in life that its solanin content is unhelpful to you.
May i suggest that you cut out other foods that contain solarins, ie. potatoes, tomatoes and peppers. Which may allow you to eat your favorite taste food, more frequently?
Also cut down on aspirin and other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, normally prescribed for arthritic symptoms. They do relieve arthritic symptoms very well, but not so well known is the fact that they inhibit cartilage repair.
Older individuals, prescribed low dosage aspirin to thin the blood, often get knee or hip cartilage problems after about 5 years on aspirin or other NSAID's


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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


#3967 10/16/05 05:33 AM
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I have cut way down on my consumption of tomatoes, potatoes and peppers, except for chile peppers. The regular bell pepper gives me migraine headaches, I discovered last xmas. But there is that occasional irresistible pizza or sauce-covered Enchilada that grabs my interest. A certain amount of food is unavoidable, in my experience. Whether it is good for us is another realm entirely. I figure if I'm going to live I might as well enjoy what I am doing and eating. No day yet has been re-submitted to live over again, so I assume they only run one way and I try to make the best of each one. :-)


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