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#3466 09/23/05 04:10 AM
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What is measurement ?
Measurement is desire to know.The time differnce between realization of desire and concpetion of desire is called Measurement Time.Measurement is acehieved by using all the available means in the known Universe.
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Who measures and who doesnt?
REP:Anything which has a desire to know, measures.What is measured defines the Relaity and Consciousness level...
Using the principle of Equivalence of all refernce Frames:
The reality (and related measurment)varies drastically from Humans(Partially Ceratin) , Animals ,Insects ,Fishes to Compounds ,Molecules ,Atom and Electrons(Uncertain).

What happens if we do not measure anything?Does reality Vanish?
As the desire must exist so should the measurement.What you desire now defines your reality.It does not get overwritten but sometime it evolves slowly and sometimes there is a sudden evolution.

Do we measure because we are coaxed by the nature to do so by creating Existential problems(problems which threaten your ability to remain happy) ?
At some level of understanding this is possible that we are just a piece of log in river.
But this is not what is understood by majority therefore it reamins a possibility with few followers.What a contradiction !! but we should not care becuase Science has a desire to measure as it has the doubt.Religion has believes beyond doubt therefore looks for no evidence.It is and all is known.Hence betweeen the two extermes I stand to bring them together.

If so then is there anything called as measurement!!
Depends on which side you are.With Science or with Religion. I am with both with multiplicitisic view of equally true subjective reality.

If there isnt anything called as measurement then why does the Qunatum Physics depends so much on Wave Function collapse?
Defintion of Wave function remains bounded by the defintion of MEasurement and therefore it subjective and local.

Has the Wave function ever collapsed or is still collapsing?
Depends on what are you measuring.

If it hasnt collapsed then who is measuring and what?
If it has collapsed then some understanding was achieved by some individuals and if it has not then the choice of measurement was made by the collective social organism called culture,society or country.

What is the Actual Desire for measurement?
Answered above.

If the source is same then isnt there any chance of finding naturally entagled objects in nature?
Open to debate

Are all the properties entangled or some?
Open to debate

.
#3467 09/24/05 01:37 AM
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Hi Dk:

Reading this post causes me to think you are in some philosophy (sic) mood questioning your self and providing your answers. I will assume you mean like from here to there or back again when you define "measurement". Very deep. I will wait.
jw

#3468 09/24/05 01:49 AM
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Error, by me.
I failed to see you are talking product ratios or output of testing as measurements. At first my erronious approach equated you post with time.
jw

#3469 09/24/05 04:20 AM
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jj ,

I was helping you understand simple Physics..
not everyone can do that.:-))
If you have anything to discuss make sure you are putting the right argument.
I dont care if Physics becomes Philosophy ...
I care for the Truth.

Keep an open mind and discuss it openly without any guilt of violating the sanctity of a primarily Western Thought.Once you understand probably you will relaize how close East and West have come together.. bigger family ...bigger problems .. and extraordinary solutions.


Cheers.

#3470 09/24/05 04:30 AM
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DKV, why is it not (generally) the responsibility of physics to answer philosophical questions? Other than reporting and understanding the interactions of matter. Why not take it further?
Sincerely,


"My God, it's full of stars!" -2010
#3471 09/24/05 04:42 AM
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why is it not the responsibility of physics to answer philosophical questions?
REP:What was that?Responsibility of Physics????
Conceptual Understanding is central to any claim of high level of Intelligence.
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Why not take it further?
REP: Go ahead.And make sure that questions are relevant to the topic.

#3472 09/24/05 05:02 AM
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"What happens if we do not measure anything? Does reality Vanish?", and "I dont care if Physics becomes Philosophy ...
I care for the Truth." posted by -DKV

I am in response to the information that YOU provided, nothing else.

Sincerely,


"My God, it's full of stars!" -2010
#3473 09/24/05 05:18 AM
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oh I am sorry.
I thought no none is really willing to accept that.
Thanks.
Yes please ask any question if you have.

#3474 09/27/05 10:00 AM
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Infact this leads to a conclusion that there is no begining at all.
There is no Absolute point of origin in Time.
Its all relative and still relative.;-))

#3475 10/02/05 11:52 PM
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dkv

What is measurement ?
Measurement is desire to know.The time differnce between realization of desire and concpetion of desire is called Measurement Time.Measurement is acehieved by using all the available means in the known Universe.

Rep: I was in a hurry before because I was leaving to get my lady from the hospital and just not quite on top of it.

I see from your opening lines where I got the impression you were talking about time again as in another post you made. Now, on reflection, I find your comments to be more in the area of philosphy than not. All results are achieved by a measurement of some kind. The means used must be designed for the purpose, such as the measured portions for a diet. You could sum it up by saying that measuremebt is an important tool for all determinations. That is not the same as saying time, or the passage of time, is anything more than a creation of man to tell now from when. It is not intrinsic in nature as I see it. Mere movment is not synominous with time. Any way you made a nice post.

Jim

#3476 10/03/05 04:19 AM
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What is measurement ?
Measurement is desire to know.The time differnce between realization of desire and concpetion of desire is called Measurement Time.Measurement is acehieved by using all the available means in the known Universe.
Rep: I was in a hurry before because I was leaving to get my lady from the hospital and just not quite on top of it.
I see from your opening lines where I got the impression you were talking about time again as in another post you made. Now, on reflection, I find your comments to be more in the area of philosphy than not.
REP: Thats a false allegation.I had made a purely scientific statement capable of expalining Quantum Physics. Why the World depends on the experiment being carried out.
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All results are achieved by a measurement of some kind. The means used must be designed for the purpose, such as the measured portions for a diet. You could sum it up by saying that measuremebt is an important tool for all determinations.
REP: Measurement is not a tool. It is everything.
Got it.
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That is not the same as saying time, or the passage of time, is anything more than a creation of man to tell now from when.
REP: TIme is not absolute. And now the origin of Time is not absolute.Got it. It is simple.
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It is not intrinsic in nature as I see it.
REP: See it again.. It is everywhere. There is a limit to reference frame translation.
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Mere movment is not synominous with time.
REP: I know. I thought there are kids in the forum...
Good to know that you are not.
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Any way you made a nice post.
REP: Thank you. Yours sincerely.

#3477 10/03/05 03:28 PM
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"Measurement is desire to know."
Measurement is not desire to know.

Measurements are undertaken because of desire to know. A measurement is an estimation or quantification along a dimension. Science started with observation. Observaton started from curiosity. Curiosity is one of the more useful characteristics of apes like us.

In the early days of science journals, people would send in drawings of random junk they observed in their telescopes or microscopes. There was no organization - it was a free-for-all.
It took time to figure organize stuff, to figure out patterns and meta-patterns. Some people are really good at observing, others at theorizing (figuring patterns), others still at creating or executing experiments to confirm or disprove these theories. But I think the order goes something like, though not exactly like, this:

Mystery -> curiosity -> qualitative observation -> quantitative observation (measurement) -> organization or classification (pattern matching) -> theorizing -> experimentation.

What can cause a mystery? Well, it's different for different people. For some people, it could be regularity that gets them curious. For others, it could a sudden irregularity in the midst of regularity. And for others, well, they just want to find out.

(Figuring patterns, and not logic, btw, is what human brains are especially well adapted to doing. Not my idea - first pointed out to me by an AI professor, but I agree with it.)

#3478 10/04/05 05:38 AM
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"Measurement is desire to know."
Measurement is not desire to know.
Measurements are undertaken because of desire to know.
REP: Agree. But inevitably the Desire almost immediately leads to a thought creation.The process of finding means to satisfy the desire.Thoughts gets executed based upon measurements of 'logical' nature. Thats why Measurement and Desire can not exist independently.Therefore what I said was also right.
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A measurement is an estimation or quantification along a dimension.
REP: Qunatification or estimation is not necessary... You measure the whole world without any qunatification.Sometimes you introduce Quantity with discreet measurable values.
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Science started with observation.
REP: Science started with Desire .. equally valid.
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Observaton started from curiosity.
REP: Curiosity ?? Hope you are not mistaking Curiosity with Intelligence. They are seperate.
An observation can be made without being curious.
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Curiosity is one of the more useful characteristics of apes like us.
REP: I am not APE... trust me :-))
=======================================
In the early days of science journals, people would send in drawings of random junk they observed in their telescopes or microscopes.
There was no organization - it was a free-for-all.It took time to figure organize stuff, to figure out patterns and meta-patterns. Some people are really good at observing, others at theorizing (figuring patterns), others still at creating or executing experiments to confirm or disprove these theories. But I think the order goes something like, though not exactly like, this:
===
my corrections:
Desire->(Lack of knowledge)Mystery -> (need for knowledge)curiosity ->(not necessary) qualitative observation(it can be a simulation in brain) -> (not necessary)quantitative observation (measurement) ->

REST all is not relevant to the subject:
=====================================

What can cause a mystery? Well, it's different for different people. For some people, it could be regularity that gets them curious. For others, it could a sudden irregularity in the midst of regularity. And for others, well, they just want to find out.
(Figuring patterns, and not logic, btw, is what human brains are especially well adapted to doing. Not my idea - first pointed out to me by an AI professor, but I agree with it.)
REP: AI professor was right.But it has nothing to do with the topic.


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