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#30982 - 06/20/09 11:27 PM Mass Circumcision Project
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Mass circumcision project plans to cut HIV risk
From New scientist issue 2713 June '09

OVER half a million men are to be offered circumcision in Swaziland and Zambia to curb the spread of HIV. It is the first time circumcision has been proposed on this scale in AIDS hotspots.
Circumcision can cut a man's risk of HIV infection by 60 per cent, and in the past African men have queued up to be circumcised. The new programme is funded to the tune of $50 million by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, enough for 650,000 procedures. Under the programme, these will only be carried out by fully trained medical professionals, which could help prevent men from being harmed.
"It's great news, and this is exactly what's needed," says Catherine Hankins, chief scientific adviser at UNAIDS. She stresses however that circumcision alone won't rule out infection with HIV, and that circumcised men should take additional precautions such as wearing condoms and limiting their numbers of sexual partners.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20...t-hiv-risk.html
****
Interestingly, we discussed male circumcision over two years ago, here in Scienceagogo.
When I posted the possible reasons as to why circumcision might give better protection against sexual infections.

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=22264&page=2

***
Then just five weeks later after the above discussion
"The World International Conference on Circumcision and AIDS-HIV", held in Australia. Came to the unanimous conclussion, that Male Circumcision did indeed provided greatly increased protection against sexual diseases, including HIV-AIDS.
In fact, two trials in America were stopped early because they showed such a high degree of efficancy that it would not have been ethical to continue to withhold circumcision from the control group!! Wow!

The above para is VERY interesting. Since one might wonder what chemical or prehaps colouring agent, they might have given the other partner?
Well it must have been something similar.....the trials would never have used REAL virus/germs.!! Would they?

The Australian Government has estimated that by 2025, HIV-AIDS will have killed 1.5 million people in Indonesia and more than 300,000 in Papua New Guinea.

The International AIDS Society Conference in Sydney has heard that male circumcision reduces the spread of the virus by 60 percent.

American Professor Robert Daly says the challenge is to change cultural and government attitudes so the procedure can be universally adopted.

Australia will provide an extra $US350 million to combat HIV/AIDS in the Asia-Pacific region.

With the federal government having already pledged $US530 milllion through its Global HIV/AIDS Initiative for the decade to 2010, Monday's announcement lifts funding to fight the pandemic to $US880 million, or one billion Australian dollars.
More than eight million people in the Asia-Pacific region are HIV-positive, with UN projections estimating the number of people living with the disease will reach 20 million by 2010 if the response is not accelerated.

***I have already posted the 'mechanical reasons' as to why I believe circumcision works, earlier in Scienceagogo.
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=22264&page=2

So I will not elaborate further. But you may carry on reading below before you return to the above 'thread reason'
as to why circumcision protects against venerial disease.

_________________________
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.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#30987 - 06/21/09 11:24 PM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Mike Kremer]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
As Indonesia is a muslim country I would assume that most males would be circumcised already, certainly some Indonesian women are circumcised. So the predicted numbers of infections seem to suggest that perhaps a more effective means of limiting the spread of AIDS should include the serious promotion of condom use, and also (here's a truly provocative idea) the practice of abstinence, or at least restraint, as in limiting partners, as a less drastic method of prevention than cutting bits off the body (it's got to hurt!).

The implications of your disturbing comment about the trials verge on the horrific.

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#30991 - 06/22/09 02:30 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Ellis]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Ellis
As Indonesia is a muslim country I would assume that most males would be circumcised already, certainly some Indonesian women are circumcised. So the predicted numbers of infections seem to suggest that perhaps a more effective means of limiting the spread of AIDS should include the serious promotion of condom use, and also (here's a truly provocative idea) the practice of abstinence, or at least restraint, as in limiting partners, as a less drastic method of prevention than cutting bits off the body (it's got to hurt!).

The implications of your disturbing comment about the trials verge on the horrific.

[quote=Mike Kremer]

Well I didnt mention Indonesia. It was Swaziland and Zambia that has the Aids problem.
Also the so called circumcision of women you mention, is absolute mutilation , and has nothing to do
with the control of sexual infections. But a whole lot more with the control of women by misguided men.
But you are absolutely right ...its not only got to hurt, ....it does hurt.
The comment of over half a million men getting circumcised is very disturbing, due to the painful process
that circumcision is in any fully grown male.
Circumcision is a very painful ceremony as any Moslem will attest to.
Moslems are circumcised around 16 years old, to mark their coming of age, as a man.
It is very very painfull usually taking 4 male members of his family to keep him still while the knife is used.

Totally unlike the Jewish method where circumcision is done when the boy is eight days old, and done for health purposes using a small circular knife, and takes a few seconds. Many American hospitals, use a similar method and will circumcise your son before he leaves the hospital, if required.
I would think that very few of the 1/2 million men will allow themselves to be circumcised
when they realise the pain involved and the healing time required. Aids or no aids.


Edited by Mike Kremer (06/22/09 02:33 AM)
Edit Reason: corrections
_________________________
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#30994 - 06/22/09 07:45 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Mike Kremer]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia

"The Australian Government has estimated that by 2025, HIV-AIDS will have killed 1.5 million people in Indonesia and more than 300,000 in Papua New Guinea."

Mike- This was in your post, so I commented on it. Even allowing half to be women that's still a lot of circumcised men catching the virus isn't it? If it helps then it should be considered but there seems to be a little bit of false hope here. Unfortunately the best way not to contract AIDS is also the best way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Any woman knows that, as for many women such a pregnancy means disaster, even death. Like AIDS- both are sexually transmitted.

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#30996 - 06/22/09 10:14 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Chart data from http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm

Showing that in 2007, 2/3 of the world's HIV infected were in Sub-Saharan Africa



****************************
I have found some similar statistics Rede. Instead of the deleted Photobucket ones.
I hope you dont mind me including them below.

http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm



Edited by Mike Kremer (06/27/12 01:49 PM)
Edit Reason: Moderator added stats:

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#31003 - 06/23/09 06:33 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rede- Why is this so? It can't just be lack of circumcision can it as a proportion of these people are women and children? 67% is way more than just chance though so what is happening?

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#31004 - 06/23/09 07:54 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
I haven't studied it, Ellis, so I don't have the info to hand; and I'd rather not speculate. I'll do some searching.

Worth investigating:

Irresponsible government
Uninformed public
Dangerous health service practices
Susceptible social structure (polygamy, multiple sex partners)

As a matter of interest:

"Though President Mugabe now regularly refers to HIV/AIDS - for many years he refused even to mention the disease and his government would not allow HIV/AIDS educational films to be made"

http://www.zimbabwejournalists.com/story.php?art_id=1409&cat=7
_________________________
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#31103 - 07/11/09 03:12 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: redewenur]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Re the above:

"Police figures record about 54 000 rapes in South Africa in 2006 -- nearly 150 per day, or one for every 925 people in the country."

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-07-09-in-south-africa-rape-is-linked-to-manhood

The article is worth reading through.
_________________________
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#31113 - 07/13/09 12:26 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
I think that President Obama has summed up the situation very well indeed. What Africa needs is not strong men but strong institutions.

Rape is only one aspect of male 'strength', but anyone who sincerely believes that rape is not about power is nuts.

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#35612 - 07/27/10 01:31 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Ellis]
ml66uk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 4
Circumcision is a dangerous distraction in the fight against AIDS. There are six African countries where men are *more* likely to be HIV+ if they've been circumcised: Cameroon, Ghana, Lesotho, Malawi, Rwanda, and Swaziland. Eg in Malawi, the HIV rate is 13.2% among circumcised men, but only 9.5% among intact men. In Rwanda, the HIV rate is 3.5% among circumcised men, but only 2.1% among intact men. If circumcision really worked against AIDS, this just wouldn't happen. We now have people calling circumcision a "vaccine" or "invisible condom", and viewing circumcision as an alternative to condoms. The South African National Communication Survey on HIV/AIDS, 2009 found that 15% of adults across age groups "believe that circumcised men do not need to use condoms".

The one randomized controlled trial into male-to-female transmission showed a 54% higher rate in the group where the men had been circumcised btw.

ABC (Abstinence, Being faithful, Condoms) is the way forward. Promoting genital surgery will cost African lives, not save them.

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#37025 - 01/09/11 10:59 PM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: ml66uk]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: ml66uk
Circumcision is a dangerous distraction in the fight against AIDS. ...............................> If circumcision really worked against AIDS, this just wouldn't happen. We now have people calling circumcision a "vaccine" or "invisible condom", and viewing circumcision as an alternative to condoms. The South African National Communication Survey on HIV/AIDS, 2009 found that 15% of adults across age groups "believe that circumcised men do not need to use condoms".

The one randomized controlled trial into male-to-female transmission showed a 54% higher rate in the group where the men had been circumcised btw.

ABC (Abstinence, Being faithful, Condoms) is the way forward. Promoting genital surgery will cost African lives, not save them.



Originally Posted By: ml66uk
Circumcision is a dangerous distraction in the fight against AIDS.


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

I have never mentioned that Circumcision prevented HIV-AIDS. Indeed if you look back to my original article,
here:--

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=22264&page=2

.....because the mode of transition of AIDs. eg. via body fluids and internal orifices etc. Therefore circumcision is hardly likely to prevent AIDS.(Please note that)

Also note that Catherine Hankins, Chief Scientific Adviser at UNAIDS. stresses however that circumcision ALONE won't rule out infection with HIV, and that circumcised men should take additional precautions such as wearing condoms and limiting their numbers of sexual partners.
I am afraid that 'ml66uk' has been brainwashed by a couple of African countrys....too poor to import the expensive medicines to treat AIDS, who's leaders stated that circumcision would prevent AIDS, in a bid to placate those infected, and misguidedly stem the rise in AIDS amongst Africans.
There are no figures as to the numbers of Africans who already had AIDS, and then went on to stupidly get them selves circumcised as well!!. Believing their Goverments bad advice, that circumcision was the-cure-all answer.
Dont copy the 'African way of thinking' on this one 'ml66uk'...You did state that AIDS has risen in many African countrys, because of- in your words 'genital surgery'.

Prehaps I should mention that AIDS infects 1000 new people every day.
Also that Africa was/is regarded as the cradle of AIDS over 30 years ago.
Those days AIDS was not realised that it was a mimmiker of various diseases before it killed you.
So you should be careful when you talk about medical issues within these pages.
It is only the poor African illiterate and their Goverment leaders who not being able to pay for the importation of the expensive drugs to cure AIDS.... that have stated that circumcision would cure AIDS.
Again ml66uk do not be taken in by the fact that later on there was no decrease in the rise of AIDS.
It was only certain African countrys who said Circumcision would cure.
I wonder if you are aware that 40% of African midwives are infected with AIDS?
Think about that ml66uk. No wonder AIDS is rampant in Africa.
And you are trying to decry circumcision, shame on you.
Remember, very many Africans are infected with AIDS as they pass thru the Birth Canal.

Furthemore circumcision is is proven to help prevent other Venereal diseases.
Lets face it...you can't trap Germs under a non-existent warm foreskin, or collect spores and other items from a roll in damp earth, or from a toilet seat etc.
Remember ml66uk that AIDS is in the blood, direct body fluid contact gives you AIDS.
Venerial disease's live in the Uterus, as well as under the warm foreskin.
Treated early venerial disease can be cured, but with no foreskin you have won half the battle.

_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#37032 - 01/10/11 02:56 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Mike Kremer]
preearth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/10
Posts: 370

Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Maybe it should be made illegal,...

just like female genital mutilation.
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#37036 - 01/10/11 06:55 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: preearth]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: preearth

Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Maybe it should be made illegal,...

just like female genital mutilation.



[quote=Mike Kremer]

Try to accept a number of Scientific truths, and facts, preearth.
I have noticed that many of your posts within these pages are full of misconceptions and false premises. Your first reply regarding this subject, shows me that, as usual, you have not studied this subject properly. Repeating what others have stated before using a sentence and a half does not warm me to having a discussion upon this subject with you.
With regard to todays modern consensual sexual practices, I dont expect you have given much thought to sexual health problems.
Almost all hospitals in America, Canada, and the UK, offer the parents circumcision to a new born baby, within a few days..
Furthermore instead of repeating what others have stated previously......first learn the difference between the words ...mutilation and excisement,....and use them correctly, particulally in relation to the female body, and its effects.
So, I am not prepared to enter a discussion with you upon this subject.

*****************
_________________________
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.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#37042 - 01/10/11 06:40 PM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Mike Kremer]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Circumcision can cut a man's risk of HIV infection by 60 per cent

While true (within a few %), the 60% figure is per-exposure, meaning in the aggregate (i.e. numerous exposures over ones lifetime) the protection provided by circumcision is minimal. Keep in mind that your chance of being infected (as a male having sex with a female whom is HIV positive) is ~30/10,000 (AKA 0.3%) per sexual encounter. Reducing that 60% reduces your risk of infection to ~12:10,000 (AKA 0.12%). On the scale of epidemiology that difference is nearly meaningless. You need reductions several orders in magnitude to have a large effect.

This is being promoted by the WHO and other organisations simply because it is cheap an requires no "user" action (like condoms). But you plug 0.3% infection/exposure and 0.12%/exposure into any epidemiological model and you'll find that the difference in terms of epidemic control is all but meaningless. Today there is ~2.6 million HIV infections per year. At 0.12%/exposure that would drop to ~1.8 million (using a single-compartmental model*). Not even close to slowing the epidemic.

*this model overestimates the effect, by assuming all infections are female-to-male transmission.

Its also worth pointing out that circumcision does nothing to prevent male-to-female transmission, homosexual transmission, or drug-use/contaminated medial equipment transmission - all major factors associated with HIV world-wide.

Bryan

PS: I find myself agreeing with pre; did hell freeze over? To alter (modify, mutilate; pick your preferred verb) the genitalia of a non-consenting (and unable to consent) child in the name of a modest and dubious medical effect (or religion), is utterly and totally wrong.
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#37051 - 01/11/11 04:04 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: ImagingGeek]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: ImagingGeek
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Circumcision can cut a man's risk of HIV infection by 60 per cent

While true (within a few %), the...................
..................................>
This is being promoted by the WHO and other organisations simply because it is cheap an requires no "user" action (like condoms).............................> Today there is ~2.6 million HIV infections per year. At 0.12%/exposure that would drop to ~1.8 million (using a single-compartmental model*). Not even close to slowing the epidemic.

*this model overestimates the effect, by assuming all infections are female-to-male transmission.

Its also worth pointing out that circumcision does nothing to prevent male-to-female transmission, homosexual transmission, or drug-use/contaminated medial equipment transmission - all major factors associated with HIV world-wide.

Bryan

PS: I find myself agreeing with pre; did hell freeze over? To alter (modify, mutilate; pick your preferred verb) the genitalia of a non-consenting (and unable to consent) child in the name of a modest and dubious medical effect (or religion), is utterly and totally wrong.



[quote=Mike Kremer]


Unfortunately you are makeing an even worse mistake than preearth, since I presume you have read all the text.
So if you did, ImagingGeek, why write a lie, and state that I wrote:-

"Circumcision can cut a man's risk of HIV infection by 60 per cent"

I have written no such thing,
in fact from my very first discussion regarding the benefits that were found back in the 1950's regarding circumcision, I deliberately did not mention "AID's," stating it can be aquired by a number of different routes"

Those were my exact words, go look it up.

You also mentioned HIV infection, yet you did not mention AIDS, I did not mention HIV, ever.....which adds yet another twist to the discussion.
Since there is a subtle difference between HIV infection, and an HIV-AIDS infection, (to give it the correct name).

I also told ml66uk that I had not mentioned AIDS, when he wrote to me stating that:- "Circumcision is a dangerous distraction in the fight against AID's."

I must say I do agree with that. For when the African countries first read the UN reports that circumcision helped prevent the spread of Syphilis and Gonorrhea,
a number of (poorer) African countries, went for the circumcision option, sadly actually telling their people that it would cure, or prevent AID's.

It was not a difficult belief for African people to accept.....since they knew that many African Moslems were circumcised (very painfully at 16 years old).
Unfortunately this particular lie, has tended to perpetuate, and even found it to the pen of preearth, and others, within these pages.

I should like to clear up a couple of important points,....HIV-AID's is in the blood.
The proof is that...(it's antibodys can easily be detected).
If someone has HIV-AID's, it can be caught by having anal sex, with that person, having oral sex, saliva and even tear fluid can harbour the disease, as well as the seminal lubricant, and seminal fluid, that comes down the uretha, before ejection.
Now these last two fluid items are very important.
Remember that if man is circumcised, his penis is far less sensitive, and his foreplay will last a good deal longer with the woman of his choice.
Providing he is NOT infected with AID's....he cannot give AID's to his partner, via the ejeculation route.
Conversly......if his partner is infected with either gonorrhea, syphilis, or even a fungal yeast infection.......the natural antiseptic properties in his lubricant will get rid of a number of unpleasant fungal infections.
Furthermore germs cannot so easily travel up the uretha to infect the man, while his fluids are on the way down.
Sometime later after the sexual act is finished, and
his uretha is empty of fluid, he has no foreskin to trap
and allow any germs to enter his uretha and travel up to infect his body at a later time.

That is the whole basis of the original UN report.

Ok, now here comes the crunch, to all you unbelievers out there. Just why did'nt I mention AID's V Circumcision, in my previous posts?
Quite simply because AID's uses various routes to infect, the most obvious ones. being normal kissing and tongueing.
Hopefully it should now be quite obvious to all, for my deliberate omission. You dont have to have sex to aquire AID's.

I have two other points to make, I believe it was Bryan who suggested that circumcision does nothing to prevent male-to-female infection transmission.
On the contrary, a man with no foreskin cannot deliver a load of smegma laden germs, when his foreskin retracts, to his 'casual woman. (I use casual deliberately)

Your mention of homosexual transmission, medical needles and drugs, as you correctly say are major factors in HIV and AIDS .

Hopefully, neither of us want hell to freeze over, so I ought to pass a comment regarding both yourself and preearth talking about mutilation.
Question...has any man that has been circumcised as a baby......ever vocally complained of being mutilated later in life?
I think no,...not ever

You make a good point when you state that a non-consenting..unable to consent child,is totally wrong.
Well I take it that you have no trust in your parents?
Presumably they had made all the decisions for you when you were a child, From deciding what school to send you, to what religion you should adopt.etc.etc.
As I stated previously, western hospitals are offering circumcision to their 8 day old baby boy. A cut which takes a few seconds . no crying and no blood. They suggest it for future health reasons. Exactly the reason that the Jews have done this for the last 5000years.
I must admit I do not know why the Moslems circumcise when they become a 'man' at 16years old it is a very painful operation to undergo,on a very sensitive spot.
If any one can give me the reasoning, and especially why they do not follow the 8 days mentioned in the Bible, I will be very grateful.

My last and final final point on this subject is....The so called circumcision of women, ....many young African girls, as soon as they menstruate and depending upon what tribe they belong to are cruelly mutilated a midwive or other woman, using a knife or a razor blade- cut their clitoris right off.
It is the most cruellest thing that could ever happen to a young girl.

It is equivalent to having a mans penis cut off. The poor girl has lost half her sexual feelings forever.
Those that practice such a barbaric ritual, believe that the only sexual feelings that she can have in the future, are inside her.
This is supposed to make her a good wife for her husband.
This practice has been banned but it still goes on, and will be difficult to eradicate
Now that is Mutilation, with a capital M.

Again that is why I make a distinction between male and female circumcision
Females are NOT Circumcised they are MUTILATED.
There are women who are genuinly circumcised..... they look in the mirror one day at their naked bodys and notice that their outer Labia are un-symetrical, and looks wrong. Rather than get embarressed in front of their future husband they can get it snipped off, in a local surgery. Its exactly the same equivalent piece of skin that gets snipped of an 8 day old baby.
You dont hear about this but it is often practised.

Hopefully I have covered enough on this subject for everyones satisfaction
If not, I am sure you will let me know one way or another.





Edited by Mike Kremer (08/26/13 04:44 PM)
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#37056 - 01/11/11 10:47 PM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Mike Kremer]
preearth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/10
Posts: 370

Circumcision has been, and is still, practiced among many primitive tribes for religious reasons.

The earliest practitioners of circumcision were the black African tribes, where the practice was (and still is) very widespread, the Australian Aborigines, and the Egyptians. These black African tribes, and the Egyptians, are known to have practiced circumcision more than 6,000 years ago.

Many other cultures, e.g., the Aztecs, the Mayans, most American Indian tribes, the Caribs, the Malays and Polynesians, also practiced circumcision.

Most of these cultures circumcise, when the boy becomes a man, as required by their religion.

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#37065 - 01/12/11 06:19 PM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Mike Kremer]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Unfortunately you are makeing an even worse mistake than preearth, since I presume you have read all the text.
So if you did, ImagingGeek, why write a lie, and state that I wrote:-

"Circumcision can cut a man's risk of HIV infection by 60 per cent"

I have written no such thing,

Second sentence of your first post:
Circumcision can cut a man's risk of HIV infection by 60 per cent, and in the past African men have queued up to be circumcised. (post #30982).

I do realise you were quoting an article, but it was that specific sentence - WHICH YOU PUT IN YOUR POST - that I replied to. I'd also point out that you've claimed to not have mentioned HIV or AIDS in your post, ad yet those very terms appear several times in your first post in this thread.

I'd also point out that I am (or at least was, as of 2008) a HIV researcher. This is an area of my expertise...

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Since there is a subtle difference between HIV infection, and an HIV-AIDS infection, (to give it the correct name).

There is no "subtle difference". HIV infection simply denotes that a patient is infected with the HIV virus. HIV-AIDS denotes that the HIV infection has progressed to the point where the patient is now immunocomprimised. The onset of AIDS can be defined in two ways - functionally (presence of opportunistic infections) or clinically (depletion of CD4+ immune cells to <200/ul).

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
I should like to clear up a couple of important points,....HIV-AID's is in the blood.

Actually, the majority of the HIV virus is present in the lymphoid tissue underlying the lumen of the gut (malt/galt). Only a few percent of the total virus is blood-born.

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
The proof is that...(it's antibodys can easily be detected).

Antibodies to any pathogen will be found in the blood, regardless of where the infection itself is. For example, bacterial infections which grow in cavities and never breach the body wall (i.e. EPEC in the gut, some forms of bacterial pneumonia) still result in the presence of blood-born antibodies. The reason is simple - antibodies are produced in lymphoid tissues which are generally situated a long ways away from common sites of infection. The antibodies are secreted into lymph, which rejoins the blood in the subclavian vein. From the blood the antibodies have free access to all tissues (via lymphatic flow), as well as access to the gut, pulmonary space, mucosa, etc, via specialised transporters that export the antibody.

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Quite simply because AID's uses various routes to infect, the most obvious ones. being normal kissing and tongueing.

Absolute nonsense. "AIDS" is not transmitted, the HIV virus is. This does not occur readily via the oral cavity. There is no documented cases of normall kissing transmitting the virus. There is a few (less than a hundred) cases were open-mouthed kissing has resulted in transmission - and in each and every case both the infected individual and the infectee had open sores in their mouth (i.e. direct blood-to-blood contact was made). The oral cavity is a very hostile place for the HIV virus.

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

I believe it was Bryan who suggested that circumcision does nothing to prevent male-to-female infection transmission.
On the contrary, a man with no foreskin cannot deliver a load of smegma laden germs

Reality is against this. Studies have been conducted, looking at the effect of circumcision on male-to-female transmission. And the answer is that there is no effect:

Baeten J, Donnell D, Kapiga S, et al. Male circumcision and risk of male-to-female HIV-1 transmission: a multinational prospective study in African HIV-1-serodiscordant couples. AIDS. 2010 Mar 13;24(5):737-44.

The reason is simple - HIV is a weak virus; a few minutes exposure to even mildly dehydrating conditions kill it. Ergo, it does not survive long under the foreskin. However, semen of an HIV+ male is full of active virions, and the vaginal vault is a ideal place for it to survive (moist, no light).

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

Question...has any man that has been circumcised as a baby......ever vocally complained of being mutilated later in life?
I think no,...not ever

You think wrong. There are thousands of procedures preformed every year to rebuild or repair the foreskin of males - obviously they're not happy about it. Go to any atheist (former christian, etc) webboards and you find dozens angry with their parents forcing of circumcision onto them. There are even groups seeking to make male circumcision illegal in many countries - often fronted by men who are angry about being circumsized. And there are all sorts of general anti-circumcision groups; mothers against circumcision being the first one that google pulls up. They all use the term "mutilation" quite extensively...

...yep, 5 seconds on google could have helped you avoid a little embarrassment.


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

You make a good point when you state that a non-consenting..unable to consent child,is totally wrong.
Well I take it that you have no trust in your parents?

I fail to see the connection between trust and consent, one can consent without an iota of trust, and trusting someone doesn't impart consent. The issue is simple - circumcision is unnecessary and irreversible. It also carries a range of medical risks, which in the western world at least, outweigh potential benefits (statistically speaking). Ergo, it is not a choice parents should be making for their kids; its a choice that should be left upto the child, once they reach an age where consent can be given and the child is capable of understanding the risks.

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

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#37078 - 01/14/11 01:56 PM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: preearth]
preearth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/10
Posts: 370
Originally Posted By: preearth

Circumcision has been, and is still, practiced among many primitive tribes for religious reasons.

The earliest practitioners of circumcision were the black African tribes, where the practice was (and still is) very widespread, the Australian Aborigines, and the Egyptians. These black African tribes, and the Egyptians, are known to have practiced circumcision more than 6,000 years ago.

Many other cultures, e.g., the Aztecs, the Mayans, most American Indian tribes, the Caribs, the Malays and Polynesians, also practiced circumcision.

Most of these cultures circumcise, when the boy becomes a man, as required by their religion.


Mike. This was meant to be a reply to your question;

"I must admit I do not know why the Moslems circumcise when they become a 'man' at 16years old it is a very painful operation to undergo,on a very sensitive spot.

If any one can give me the reasoning, and especially why they do not follow the 8 days mentioned in the Bible, I will be very grateful."
_________________________
Earth formed from a collision
www.preearth.net

Plate-tectonics is wrong
www.preearth.net/plate.html

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#37097 - 01/16/11 08:17 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: preearth]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: preearth
Originally Posted By: preearth

Circumcision has been, and is still, practiced among many primitive tribes for religious reasons.

The earliest practitioners of circumcision were the black African tribes, where the practice was (and still is) very widespread, the Australian Aborigines, and the Egyptians. These black African tribes, and the Egyptians, are known to have practiced circumcision more than 6,000 years ago.

Many other cultures, e.g., the Aztecs, the Mayans, most American Indian tribes, the Caribs, the Malays and-Polynesians, also practiced circumcision.

Most of these cultures circumcise, when the boy becomes a man, as required by their religion.


Mike. This was meant to be a reply to your question;

"I must admit I do not know why the Moslems circumcise when they become a 'man' at 16years old it is a very painful operation to undergo,on a very sensitive spot.

If any one can give me the reasoning, and especially why they do not follow the 8 days mentioned in the Bible, I will be very grateful."



Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Yes, thank you for that information regarding those Peoples and their numbers who practise Circumcision.
I must admit I am getting pretty fed up with writing about this subject.
Partly because I have have recieved 2 interesting Emails
the last couple of days. Both from women, one who provided an interesting slant on the subject.

She said that she worked as a 'rest room cleaner' for a Hotel many years ago.
She used to get fed up with the uncircumcised spraying their wee wee, all over the toilet seats and floors, that she had to clean up.
Hmmm... ..I never thought about that one.
A second Email from a nurse yesterday, disagreed with ImagingGeek's statement that hundreds of men want to get their foreskin put back. Working in a London Hospital for 18 years she said she never ever heard of anyone who wanted their foreskin put back. But that occasionaly they
get a patient need to have their foreskin removed for medical reasons.

I found this item on US Reuters, a few minutes ago.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B65X420101207

Click on above URL ..Then page down to-

>Circumcision may not curb gay HIV transmission<

And then read. (As I cannot get this url to work)

However I have made my last comment upon this subject, as there are plenty of other more interesting items to post.

_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#37149 - 01/20/11 01:30 AM Re: Mass Circumcision Project [Re: Mike Kremer]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Originally Posted By: preearth
[quote=preearth]
Circumcision has been, and is still, practiced among many primitive tribes for religious reasons.

The earliest practitioners of circumcision were the black African tribes, where the practice was (and still is) very widespread, the Australian Aborigines, and the Egyptians. These black African tribes, and the Egyptians, are known to have practiced circumcision more than 6,000 years ago.

Many other cultures, e.g., the Aztecs, the Mayans, most American Indian tribes, the Caribs, the Malays and-Polynesians, also practiced circumcision.

Most of these cultures circumcise, when the boy becomes a man, as required by their religion.


Mike. This was meant to be a reply to your question;

"I must admit I do not know why the Moslems circumcise when they become a 'man' at 16years old it is a very painful operation to undergo,on a very sensitive spot.

If any one can give me the reasoning, and especially why they do not follow the 8 days mentioned in the Bible, I will be very grateful."



Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Yes, thank you for that information regarding those Peoples and their numbers who practise Circumcision.
I must admit I am getting pretty fed up with writing about this subject.
Partly because I have have recieved 2 interesting Emails
the last couple of days. Both from women, one who provided an interesting slant on the subject.

She said that she worked as a 'rest room cleaner' for a Hotel many years ago.
She used to get fed up with the uncircumcised spraying their wee wee, all over the toilet seats and floors, that she had to clean up.
Hmmm... ..I never thought about that one.
A second Email from a nurse yesterday, disagreed with ImagingGeek's statement that hundreds of men want to get their foreskin put back. Working in a London Hospital for 18 years she said she never ever heard of anyone who wanted their foreskin put back. But that occasionaly they
get a patient need to have their foreskin removed for medical reasons.

I found this item on US Reuters, a few minutes ago.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B65X420101207

Click on above URL ..Then page down to-

>Circumcision may not curb gay HIV transmission<

And then read. (As I cannot get this url to work)

However I have made my last comment upon this subject, as there are plenty of other more interesting items to post.



Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Hehehe, So much for those non-existent dreamers who dream of putting their Foreskin back.

This is for the anti-snip-brigade....there is hope for them yet in the form of an anti-HIV Aids Pill.
And goodness knows how many different ones of those there are (around)

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/23/health/la-he-hiv-prevention-20101123

_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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