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#2748 08/16/05 09:29 AM
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Cat is not a Qunatum object.
But what happens if the resultant event space is not well known.
Something like this could also happen.
Schr?dinger's cat was expected to be dead or alive.The argument assumes the existence of the concepts called Dead and Alive but it also assumes that a State of Coma or a State of Unconsciousness is not a Quantum State.
Have we found a methodology to conclusively define the resultant event space.
Are all the possibilities known?
Can there be anything beyond +1 , -1 and 0 ever?

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Quantum mechanics, by definition, involves a state known as indeterminate. Indetermine is either +1, 0, nor -1.

The point of Schrodinger's Cat is a thought experiment. I've never met anyone in physics that took it as seriously relating to cats. For one thing that cat being conscious knows whether it is alive. And the last time I checked the universe gave no special value to human consciousness over that of cats or any other sentient being.


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Quantum mechanics, by definition, involves a state known as indeterminate. Indetermine is either +1, 0, nor -1.
REP: Recently I read message saying that there can be a state below the ground state of Hydrogen.I knew it was not sensible. But are we sure of it? and if yes why?
The observed consistency of current theroy can be attributed to high probability of some other fundamental rule. When protons can live together then why cant the electrons live a little closer to the nucleus? Was there ever a change in the fundamental constants which would have shifted the orbit?(in a recent article , it was mentioned that some fundamental constants might have changed over a period of time.)And if so what does it take to change the constants?
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The point of Schr?dinger's Cat is a thought experiment. I've never met anyone in physics that took it as seriously relating to cats.
REP: The thought experiment was very serious in its own period and even today people refer to it in order to explain the Collapse of indeterminate qunatum state into a known measured event.
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For one thing that cat being conscious knows whether it is alive. And the last time I checked the universe gave no special value to human consciousness over that of cats or any other sentient being.
REP:I am talking about Qunatum States and I do not intend to bring the human machines into the discussion.However it is a good analogy.The measurement forces the nature to take its decision whether the it exists or not.This decision is probabilistic in nature.And the indeterminancy is related to unknowable nature of the measurement event but not regarding the possible outcomes of a measurement.Once measured the result set belongs to a known set of values.
Probability is based upon the known definition of ouput events.All the possible output events must be known(either in the form of equation or in its discreet nature)
If the known event defintion is itself an approximation then the probability of an event can vary over a period of time and something outside Qunatum derived result set can also occur.
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My question was
Are all the possibilities known?
How much of flexibility should be allowed in the Physics?
If everything is possible then possibly we are left with discovery of methods to make that everything possible.
(That includes Universe Creation.. and some are already doing it!!)

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Using the cat as a thought experiment is valid. Taking it literally is preposterous. Quantum mechanics has never been shown to operate at the level of macroscopic objects ... and certainly not self-aware sentient ones.

If someone chooses to believe that a whole cat is a quantum object ... they are a fool.

You can not talk about the cat on one hand and then claim you are not in the very next paragraph ... which is it?

But to your final question: "Are all of the possibilities known? A question either rhetorical or pushing the boundary of being a stupid question. Of course not. But that doesn't mean that many possibilities can be excluded from the list of possibilities.

Flexibility in physics should extend as far as possible given that known limits are not violated. So claiming the speed of light in a vacuum is Orange is pure garbage by any definition that does not revolve around the use of hallucinogenic drugs. Trying, as I think you may be, to put an equals sign between "any uneducated idiotic fantasy" and "possible" doesn't belong in this universe.


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Please use proper reasoning to discuss.
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Using the cat as a thought experiment is valid. Taking it literally is preposterous. Quantum mechanics has never been shown to operate at the level of macroscopic objects ... and certainly not self-aware sentient ones.
REP:I was also using it as an analogy.
But there is something which is very important to understand.An object made up of Quantum objects can only be qunatum in nature.. It can deduced based upon the induction reasoning.The Quantum behaviour looses its existence to chaos.Questions like when a Quantum object becomes a classical object is relevant only from the point of view of practical convinience.The observed classical behaviour is essentially statistical in nature.Uncertainity becomes very small but it doesnt disappear.
When we try to achieve super conductivity or laser action we use the quantum nature of its constituents(electrons/atoms) which when properly aligned expresses its new state with new behaviour.This state is essentianlly Qunatum mechanical in nature. The quantum nature can manifest itself if we know the method.
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If someone chooses to believe that a whole cat is a quantum object ... they are a fool.
REP: Now what do you say?:-)
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You can not talk about the cat on one hand and then claim you are not in the very next paragraph ... which is it?
REP: It was an Analogy. Please try to understand.
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But to your final question: "Are all of the possibilities known? A question either rhetorical or pushing the boundary of being a stupid question. Of course not. But that doesn't mean that many possibilities can be excluded from the list of possibilities.
REP:This question is very important to Science because one can say that the theory is incomplete as it has failed to declare what all can happen with 100% certainity. and this will essentially mean that the achieved theory is not the final one. or the theory should itself admit its incompleteness with respect to possible outcomes which can expalin in principle.
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Flexibility in physics should extend as far as possible given that known limits are not violated.
REP: Almost all the limits are getting violated. ===================================
So claiming the speed of light in a vacuum is Orange is pure garbage by any definition that does not revolve around the use of hallucinogenic drugs.
REP: Only You know what you are speaking.Drugs cant help you become an Einstein.
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Trying, as I think you may be, to put an equals sign between "any uneducated idiotic fantasy" and "possible" doesn't belong in this universe.
REP: That doesnt deserve a reply.

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The cat, itself, always knows whether the capsule containing the poison broke.

Unless you wish to posit some special position in the universe for human intelligence being differentn quantum mechanics than the cats intelligence, you are meowing in the wrong litter box.


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Cats being asleep 23-1/2 hours a day, thus unconscious during that time, are bound to be mostly unconscious and not knowing anything one way or the other. Schroedinger's cat being presumably a normal cat neither knows nor cares either way. It is only the observer who has any interest in the cat's existence; naturally, cats, being self-centered beasts, only care if you have food in your hand and thus could care less about the experimenter. Puss knows when to wake up and feed; the rest of the time it is obliviously unaware. Why don't we have a Schroedinger's cow? Too big a box?

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Try sneaking up on one of those "unconscious" cats some time without being carefully monitored by every sense except the eyes.

Nothing moves in a cat's domain of which the feline is unaware. ;-)


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My cats are singularly unperturbable. They don't get out of the way; they expect to be walked around. When they sleep they expect the same courtesy also. I confess I oblige them most of the time. When I do accidentally step on one, the most I usually get is a polite "meow" and they try to move then. Tails sticking out straight behind while eating or drinking often run afoul of feet, and usually the polite meow is sufficient, though I do get scratched on the ankle from time to time when one is in a temper mood. They sleep oblivious to all the natural dangers of the world, and act as if they own the place. Come to think of it, there's a cat-paw print on the deed....

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There are things of which Cat is aware of and there are things of which it is unaware of ...

The unaware part also measures and exceutes so many functions in daily life that I rarely care for the wave function collapse. I(unaware+aware) refuse to measure. I never try to conciously measure my heart beat frequency or the body temperature to function properly. Someone inside me does it.
Infact the whole process can keep functioning which out my conscious intervention till the day I find myself in a situation where I surrender to Yoga or to the doctor whom I trust to save me from the state defined as Death.Even then the measurer is not me but the external device.
The conscious measurement(as defined by boolean maths) is not needed in many cases. The question of boolean , relative measurement becomes relevant only when there is a need.

And who knows what the Cat measured when she died? We thought she died and when she died she thought I am not a Cat(or may be she thought there is nothing called as Death as she moved into a different continous world.. conciousness shift).
Again the event result set can poosibly change.
An electron doesnt measure the field of another electron. It simply interactes and responds in known ways. What was measured during the interaction who knows(or may be they understood the reality as we understand)

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now you know that what happens to the Cat..
If we agree that Cat is sick then it is sick ...
thats it.
All alone my observations may not mathematically meaningful or consequential and therefore any closed Information Black Hole(from which information can not be extracted) is beyond Mathematical Logic.
Such an object can not exist in Maths.
This is the reason I say Black Holes must communicate.I guess Tegmark also says the same.

Reality is agreed upon truth based on previous truths.

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dvk:

Your agreement or anyone else's is irrelevant to a star the collapses into a black hole in a galaxy 10 billion lights years away.

The measurement is made by the entire universe as gravitational waves spread out, and interact with, and affect all matter and energy.


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The measurement is made by the entire universe as gravitational waves spread out, and interact with, and affect all matter and energy.
REP:The measurement was made only about the existence or non-existence of a Black Hole by the Universe containing it.
No other information is available.In principle the black hole can be Anything!!
Anything can also include events which are beyond Physical Laws....
So in principle Mathematical Physics leaves a space for its own violation....this defeats the Spatial integrity of Mathematical Structures.
Which in my opinion should not be allowed ...
AND therefore my dear friend the Black Holes must communicate.


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