Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Climate Change Forum WATER FUELED CAR UNVIELED IN JAPAN

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Genepax web site (Japanese)
Mech , Development , Future innovation included

make sure you look at this
Future.html


WATER FUELED CAR



I wish I would have found this yesterday.
can anybody see why?



MORE

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/13/genepax-shows-off-water-powered-fuel-cell-vehicle/

Well , it looks like the U.S. is once again in the rears due to
its OIL BASED ECONOMY that did not allow technological advancements such as this one , isnt that smart.

I want one of these cars and a generator for my house and my boat that I dont have yet , but will be able to afford when I get the new car and generator , and all the other things that I will be able to afford then , even a few steaks every week , maybe take in a few movies every month , visit amusement parks ,
there will be a definite economy boost when people can afford to boost the economy.


.

I saw on the television on one of the Science type channels a person who developed a car which ran on water by pumping the water to the engine which then comes into contact with a metal which would strip the hydrogen from the water and power the vehicle. The super thing about this process was that its exhaust was oxygen with water and it could get reclaimed by the fuel tank. The bad part of this was that it was powered by water and in much of the Earth water has a tendency to freeze during the winter months.

Rallem: "The bad part of this was that it was powered by water and in much of the Earth water has a tendency to freeze during the winter months."

Good point. I wonder if it works with anti-freeze added.

I think a well insulated tank along with a low voltage heating supply would be the trick.

the car istelf could monitor/maintain the "WATER/FUEL" temperature and crank itself up when the battery requires a charge.

get this , the air conditioning system could even supply much of the needed water , the tank could be refueled while it is raining , water could be extracted right out of humid air ,
etc..etc..etc..

you know how greedy people are , if this becomes the norm for our energy needs and Im sure it will !! then it will be things like the above that will keep the COST of water down !!!

I wonder if the fuel cell can return much of the water it uses after it converts the H and O2 into electricity?

it should do this to keep people^ from claiming it would cause too much water vapor , a greenhouse gas.

.

Reply by Mike Kremer

I suspect this idea may only come into its own in the lab, or used for publicity purposes.
The crux of the problem being the fuel cell.
The fuel cell would either be powered by a battery which would have to be recharged every night?
Or it would work by pressuring water through membranes, similar to salt desalination, except that as far as I am aware there is no membrane in existence that can separate hydrogen from the oxygen. Both systems would require a large amount of battery power, for electrolysis, or a very high pressure, when considering the small size of the Hydrogen atom.
In any case the water would need to be Ultra pure, to prevent cleaning the Fuel Cell of clogging impurities, at least on a weekly basis.
Desalination plants use large amounts of electricity, pro rata their size.
The most efficient oxygen from water conversion is still done by plant life.
Found a Fuel cell pics, any one read Jap?

http://www.genepax.co.jp/pdf/wes_20080613_ver1.pdf

They call it a WES Cell

http://www.genepax.co.jp/pdf/wes_20080613_ver1.pdf
pdf pages 8,9, and 10 (Adobe Reader)

You have the idea here. A membrane is used to remove certain molecules that are disolved in another liquid like NaCl molecules from H2O. They are not used to break bonds unless extra energy is supplied.

Seeing as how the electrolysis process will not be 100% efficient (thanks a lot entropy!), would it not be more advantageous to use the 'energy generator' directly?

PAUL

Living in a northern climate, I have to agree that an insulated tank would be needed, but so too would the tube for putting water into the tank. When it hits -40, the water would freeze quickly to the tube. Storing you car in a heated garage may help, but then you get the corrosion problem to the rest of the car.

Mike

There was a membrane being researched in california around the time (2002)I was submitting apps to the P.I.E.R. program at S.D.S.U. for the CFPFM that was refused funding !!

I have a PDF and permission to discuss it from the researcher.

however I will only say that the membrane was using pressure to separate / crack water.

I have read about a membrane that will seperate / crack water just by pouring water onto the membrane , and this sounds like this is the same tech.

not sure but it sounds like it.

.

John



I suppose that maybe in those conditions you would use hot water to pour into the tank , or better yet crushed ice.

theres a way around it Im sure.

still I think that if the system were designed to reuse the water , then there would never be a need to add water.

.

Is this story true, and for real? Or is it one of those urban myths?

With water already scarce in many parts of the world (and likely to get worse with climate change according to some reports) has this car the potential to cause the same sort of dilemma for water resources that the bio-fuel debacle has for food crops?

That little car is very appealing though!

Presuming that there are honest scientists and technologists among us: Speak up. Is this an expensive hoax, or not?

Revl,
Hoy, I wasn't reading closely enough. This is the opposite of a hydrogen fuel cell (that I thought it was).

They must have some catalytic membrane, eh? How long could that last; must need to use very pure water. ...No? ...Tea?
I'm gonna have to look closer at this to see how this isn't perpetual motion. Maybe they don't go beyond the hydroxyl stage, when "splitting" the water.

p.s. Re: Mike's comments:
I also was wondering if it used a battery to power the cell, but wouldn't it be easier just to use the battery directly?
That's why I assumed they must have some high-tech catalyst, maye even nano- or bio-engineered.

Samwik

The membrane I mentioned earlier wasnt actually a membrane it was a material that cracked the water the water wasnt pressurized through it.

it just cracked water through its surface configuration.

I dont know if this is the same tech that the Genepax uses though.

One of my posting-friends from Brainmeta.com sent me this. Check out:
http://green.yahoo.com/news/ap/20080616/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_honda.html

MORE ON FUEL CELLS

Having looked at the various Fuel Cell configurations and types, the info naturally is hard to find.
I am very certain now, that the type of fuel cell used is the
type that uses the 'free energy' of molecules to provide an
immeadiate Electric current. ie Charged particles (ions and
electrons) that are produced by an Electrochemical reaction.
For instance a Lead Acid battery will produce a heavy amount of
power compared to say a Water/salt mixture and Zinc.
Both will give out no more than 2 volts DC, but the lead/acid will produce far greater power.
Both the lead and zinc are sacrificed in both cases. Of course the lead/acid can be recharged, the lead plumbum is reconverted back to spongy lead. I dont think the Salt/zinc battery can be reconverted....but these simple batterys are often used as low powered beacons by Sailors who fall into the sea, then the Salt/zinc battery auto-lights up when it comes in contact with Seawater.

The Fuel Cells that everyone has been working on for the last
thirty years needs to first and foremost to have its plates
micro-porous to provide the largest area as possible.
Area will equate with Amps, (power) but not voltage. A plate might very well be made up with a 'Platinum Black' mixture.
This is extremely expensive but will not corrode.....and in fact
might not take part in the Electrochemical reaction, but act as
a Catalyst,....dependent upon the type of liquid used to produce the ionic current. Platinum is a very useful Catalyst.
A thin wire of Platinum when exposed to house gas, will glow
white/red, and ignite the gas. the basis of a unique pocket lighter, produced over 20 years ago.
Virtually any liquid that can carry even a small current can be used as the Ionic carrier.
Furthermore, any current carrying liquid can be used between virtually any two different metals to make a battery.

What the companys have been working on for 30 years is to find
the best Micro-porous material with the greatest surface area,
to act as either as an Anode or Cathode (dependent upon their
surface coatings) that will resist clogging up, and last as long
as possible. Porous Ceramics or metallalised plastic Polymers
might be being used today...but not Glass Fibre plates.

Its not an easy problem. Although I have never worked directly
on this problem. I was working on the periphery of Fuel Cell
research, in industry over twenty years ago. I suggested using a
metallised Glass fibre coated plate as an Anode.
Now back to the Fuel Cell for driving a Car.
I will guarantee that, yes, the fuel cells liquid will be Water,
But it will have to be mixed with another product!
Possibly an Alcohol or likely Methanol, or prehaps another type
of ion carrying Hydrocarbon?
The high surface area plates will be sealed and kept secret,
they will have a small amount of Methanol, or other material to
help with the reaction. But YOU will only be allowed to add the
water!
The Manufacturer who provides the largest surface area of plates
will win. Two volts at 500Watt...will run a car. It will probably use a special electric motor, integral and inside one of the car wheels, where the brake normally is.
Having said all this ....The reverse is possible. you could
obtain quite a large amount of Hydrogen and Oxygen quickly, to
evolve off the Anode/Cathode plates, by putting a current
into the fuel Cell due to the very large plate area.

I understand that the Govenor of California, Swartezenegger, is
very keen on putting in Hydrogen filling stations, so that
people will be tempted to buy a Hydrogen fuelled car.
Here again the production of Hydrogen is power intensive, and
relies upon the Coal burning (or atomic?) power stations.
The carbon footprint for a Hydrogen running car would be greater
than the simplified fuel Cells I have described above, and
probably higher than a gasoline driven V4 or V6?
A Hydrogen cars advantage is:- no emissions, plus it would run
as fast and far as todays conventional Auto. It would come into
its own as the price of gas rises at the pumps.
Greedys will buy one....when the rest of us should be cutting
down on power usage, by buying smaller and slower.

Rev



yes its true , heres something else that is true.

You owe over 30,800 dollars to the FED

Not the U.S. Federal Government the FED , the people that our government sends the taxes they get from us , to pay interest on what they have to borrow every day.

there seems to be apx 300 million people in the U.S.
the current National Debt is at 9 trillion give or take a few hundred billion.

every day you get further in debt by $4.88

thats it , only $4.88 a day?

per U.S. citizen?

you still owe your share of the 9 trillion though.

It seems that industry has / is leaving the U.S. because of ever tightening environmental restrictions and labor laws and labor cost.

now if the Genepax were to be funded by the U.S. Government and automobile plants were built in the U.S. then thousands of american workers would be making enought money to pay taxes on their wages , this would result in hundreds of other buisnesses employing more workers to support the new automobile industries in america , lets dont even think of leaving out the current auto manufacturers , as they could re-tool and do contract work to build the Genepax autos , generators , etc.

Our industrial strenght would increase in America , there would be no more need for environmental restrictions due to fosil fuels , our young men and women would not need to join the armed forces just to find work...

if this Genepax does what it says then , I doubt that they will be able to find funding , or a manufacturer to mass produce it , other than the U.S. or China.

fact is in my own personal opinion both the U.S. and China should have a serious look into it.

if something doesnt happen soon then we might end up looking at each other in other ways.

We need the energy that is remaining.
They need the energy that is remaining.

instead of going to war to get whats left , we could go to war together to end the pollution , wouldnt that be much better?


...

Mike

I didnt think to check where Rev lives , I was thinking that he lives in the U.S. my mistake.

it was (you owe the FED) , not (the FED owes you).