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#26582 - 06/11/08 10:24 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
"...and physics is the direct study of energy."

Interesting, RedE. No wonder that the root word for GOD, in Hebrew is El. In Arabic is Al. Both words mean: "the source of all power, or energy". Theos, the Greek translation, means: "the source of all knowledge/ideas/wisdom. Our English term, God, means: "the source of all good. For me GOD is the one, powerful and good idea.

BTW, The national Israeli Airline is called EL AL--to the highest heights.


Edited by Revlgking (06/11/08 11:46 PM)
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G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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Of Interest?
#26583 - 06/12/08 03:04 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1827
Yes, it's certainly interesting, Rev. Hand-in-hand with those laws of physics are the mathematical constants. One thing that always fascinated me as a kid, and still does now, is Pi. I was awe-stricken when I was taught that Pi = 4/1 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + 4/9 - 4/11...and so on with an infinity of denominators.

Does a deeply mystical beauty seen in these laws and constants - all of the discovered order underlying the universe - represent the "God" of some allegedly atheistic scientists? I suspect that it does, albeit that there usually seems to be a cautious avoidance of applying any "God" word; after all, the failure to apply a label does nothing to detract from the reality, but rather releases the understanding from preconceived notions.

(Rev, it might be fair that the angel bringing us to momentary consciousness at least drop a clue about those little details. It could make a big difference to some foetuses! smile )

While the above is surely a beautiful perspective, it relies specifically upon a certain knowledge of the physical universe. More broadly, 'mind' has emerged from this order with the capacity to identify the spiritually poetic not in those laws and constants alone, but in all aspects of existence and experience.
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26587 - 06/12/08 10:11 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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So am I expected to assume that, if given a choice, all who have posted here would choose life, not oblivion?

What about guests? There must be quite a few as there has been over 340 clicks in three days. It doesn't take a lot of time to give a yes, or no, and let us know you are there.


Edited by Revlgking (06/12/08 10:16 AM)
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G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#26592 - 06/12/08 01:35 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1827
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
So am I expected to assume that, if given a choice, all who have posted here would choose life, not oblivion?

I don't think you can assume that, Rev. Those who responded directly to the question you posed considered it invalid, since the foetus knows nothing of life.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26597 - 06/12/08 08:51 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1487
Loc: Australia
rede wrote;

'I don't think you can assume that, Rev. Those who responded directly to the question you posed considered it invalid, since the foetus knows nothing of life.'

... and therefore, I agree, cannot make an informed choice.

An example of an informed choice for oblivion would be that of a person with an incurable painful disease choosing to die.

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#26598 - 06/12/08 10:54 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Ellis]
Mike Kremer Offline

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Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK

I think redewenur correctly answered your invalid question, in stating that the foetus knows nothing of life.

Given that, I cannot see how God in his infinite wisdom could ever allow oblivion in his Universe.
For Oblivion has no meaning even to God, until he first gives life to the living.
_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26601 - 06/13/08 06:05 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Mike Kremer]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
I don't think you can assume that, Rev. Those who responded directly to the question you posed considered it invalid, since the foetus knows nothing of life.
Okay, RedE, and anyone: What is a valid question, here?

Keep in mind: I admit I am using my imagination. This is fiction, a concocted story. Because there is no direct scientific evidence, yet, that you, me, or anyone has lived before, I am pretending that I was here before; that I did choose to come back again, and in circumstances I worked out with the guidance of a wiser spiritual being--one who no longer needs to reincarnation.
_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#26602 - 06/13/08 06:12 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Mike Kremer]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

" ... the foetus knows nothing of life.
Not even unconsciously?

Quote:
Given that, I cannot see how God in his infinite wisdom could ever allow oblivion in his Universe.
For Oblivion has no meaning even to God, until he first gives life to the living.
Interesting comment.

The following are serious questions. No sarcasm intended: Does hell have meaning to God? Did you get your information from God? How?
_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#26603 - 06/13/08 07:00 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1827
Rev, returning to your question, it seems very much like:

"Knowing what you know about life, do you think it is ethical to bring babies into the world, and why?"
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26604 - 06/13/08 09:58 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
"Knowing what you know about life, do you think it is ethical to bring babies into the world, and why?"
Good way to put the question.

I said that this thread was an experiment.

Perhaps I should start over and make the scenario like this:
You are at the end of your life and you have become convinced that there is some kind of life after death, but not one with a heaven and/or hell.

You will have the opportunity to choose, or NOT to choose, to live a new life similar to--but not exactly like--the one you have had. The new life will have the same dangers and opportunities. You will have the opportunity to build on what you have learned in this life and to improve things.
What would you choose?

As to your question: I believe that every child has the right to be born into a good home--not necessarily materially rich--where he/she is wanted, loved and educated to be a humane being. I am not saying: There ought to be laws like they have in China, but I am not happy when ill-prepared--even inhumane--parents are allowed to have any number of children who are then condemned by circumstances to live in poverty.

_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#26611 - 06/13/08 11:03 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1487
Loc: Australia
I believe that every child has the right to be born into a good home--not necessarily materially rich--where he/she is wanted, loved and educated to be a humane being. I am not saying: There ought to be laws like they have in China, but I am not happy when ill-prepared--even inhumane--parents are allowed to have any number of children who are then condemned by circumstances to live in poverty.

Well said Rev

What would you choose you ask? Probably it would depend on the experience of life. For some oblivion would be preferable, for others the same again would be lovely --and for some, a similar life but with a firm resolution to do some things differently. But it could never be exactly the same could it? Maybe the people you are interacting with are also changing the situation as they go! It would then end, as life often does, in unplanned chaos. Seems to be a reason to live every day as best we can because we won't get another go.

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#26612 - 06/14/08 12:07 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1827
Ellis: "Probably it would depend on the experience of life."

More than probably, I would say. Most of us, having been born into the materially developed regions, have experienced the luxury of "resting in green fields, beside still waters", to paraphrase the psalm. In some ways, we know only too well the meaning of the word 'suffering'; and in our midst, we see appalling suffering. But we, here, have not experienced the unremitting harsh circumstances familiar to most people on this small blue dot. We've had the opportunity to savour the more attractive aspects of existence. We have time to reflect, to philosophise, and to post on the SAGG forum. Given that, together with the instinctive drive for survival, it should be of little surprise to learn that most of us would opt for another round of the same.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26619 - 06/14/08 11:44 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
"Seems to be a reason to live every day as best we can because we won't get another go."

I respect your point, Ellis, but think of this question: What is living "every day as best we can" anyway?

For those of us who are selfish and greedy--and also myopic about there being any life beyond this one--it is having as many material and luxury items we can, now. If I don't get it now, I never will. And I don't care who gets hurt in the process of my getting what I want.

DO MANY PEOPLE REALLY BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE NO PERSONAL AND FUTURE CONSEQUENCES, EVER, FOR THE THOSE WHO DO GREAT EVIL, OR GOOD IN THIS LIFE?

Surely this kind of lack of belief in any future-life consequences, one way or the other, must be the basic cause of a lot social injustice, of crime, including wars of aggression.

I am not an advocate of using nothing but sticks like fear, guilt and shame to motivate people to be better do good things, but who of us would obey all the annoying laws out there, pay all the taxes we should, or be Good Samaritans just out of the goodness of heart? You recall that it was fear of that "dream of death" and "What dreams may come?" is what kept Hamlet from taking his life.


Edited by Revlgking (06/14/08 11:56 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#26621 - 06/14/08 01:38 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
"... most of us would opt for another round of the same." RedE comments. He also mentions the: "...instinctive drive for survival."

THE FOLLOWING IS STRICTLY MY PERSONAL BELIEF AND OPINION:

As I said before, I was born into poverty, raised in third-world conditions (lots of bad nutrition, TB, etc., and lack of good health care). At an early age--1932 to 1944--witnessed many deaths in my family and community, including the deaths of over 60 young merchant seamen. In 1942--I was 12--I witnessed the sinking (there were two battles) of four iron-ore carriers, by enemy subs, right near the island where I was born and raised. For the story check out: http://www.bellisland.net

Looking back, this could have turned me into being a fearful and bitter cynic about the teaching that there is an all-loving and all-powerful God who is in control and is protecting us. For a short time--I was 15, in high school with a developing interest in the practical sciences--I did toy with the idea that, for most people, life is the pits. Only a few of the 10,000 people on Bell Island had power and wealth. Most of us were wage slaves. But the good news is: The war was good for us in that it did provide full employment and me with the opportunity to get an education.

I got out of high school at 16. One of the jobs I got was picking rocks out of iron ore--10 hours a day, six days a week. Very boring! But it was a job. I earned all of 58 cents per hour. WOW! BTW, The same company, Dominion Iron & Steel, paid laborers in Nova Scotia, Canada, 90 cents per hour. Newfoundland did not federate with Canada until 1949--when I was a junior at http://www.mta.ca

To make a long story short: Inspired by my minister, who came to our island in 1942, when I was twelve, I decided not to be a cynic or a bitter skeptic. Skeptical, yes--even agnostic. But a curious and skeptical agnostic, not a bitter one.

MY SPIRITUAL GUIDES
The new minister was a good thinker and an interesting speaker. He was also very interested in youth and even looked after the Scout Troop--and the school--of which I was a proud member.

Keep in mind: At that time, we had church-operated schools. Each denomination had its own schools. The minister, or priest, was chair of the church school board and, thankfully, our minister chose inspiring teachers.

I call all of them my spiritual guides. Together, they gave those of us--that is, those who chose to listen--the following message: With God and a good education, many things are possible. I chose to believe, and to act on, this. But, thankfully, I was not expected to believe and follow, blindly.

Looking back, I am glad that I did choose to believe.

May I ask: To what extent should I feel guilty that I was so fortunate, when others were not?





Edited by Revlgking (06/14/08 01:46 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#26628 - 06/14/08 11:50 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1827
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
May I ask: To what extent should I feel guilty that I was so fortunate, when others were not?

Rev, was your 'good fortune' something, as you seem to imply, over which you had control or influence? If so, in what way did your good fortune contribute to the lack of good fortune for others?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26638 - 06/15/08 01:54 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: redewenur
... Rev, was your 'good fortune' something, as you seem to imply, over which you had control or influence? If so, in what way did your good fortune contribute to the lack of good fortune for others?
Re: question 1 :I made choices, including meditation, which got me the results I needed.
Re: 2: I guess it is more a feeling of sadness for others than one of guilt.
_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#26687 - 06/18/08 12:06 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1827
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Re: 2: I guess it is more a feeling of sadness for others than one of guilt.

Yes. This sadness at the misfortunes of others is actually grief - which often transforms itself into guilt, even though events are not in our hands.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26742 - 06/19/08 11:24 PM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1191
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Quote:
Let Us Assume that all who read this post belong to a group of un-born foetuses--children within an hour, or so, of being born.

An angel--bringing us to a momentary consciousness--tells us: "You Are Given A Choice. You Can Choose be Born Into Life With all The Kinds Of Dangers and/or Opportunities Life Can Have In Store, Or You Can Choose Not To Be Born at all. What Do You Choose? Life? Or The Kind of Oblivion from Which You Now Came?

"At Birth you will have no memory that there was ever such a thing as life before, or evidence of life beyond birth. You willd just have to believe in one, or the other, and then make your choice.

"You will get no information about the kind of parents you will have, or about the kind of life there will be in store for you. You will just have to take your chances.

"Given the above, what will you choose? Conscious life. Or life in an unconscious oblivion?"



Hmmm, this is a tough one..
I think I wanna be a dog so I can lick myself where I can't now.
_________________________
Man's value isn't measured by God, or man's interpretation of man/God. Belief is temporary.





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#26746 - 06/20/08 12:27 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 896
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
TT,
This is a science forum. Your remarks are needlessly crude. Please refrain from such remarks in future, or I will edit your remarks.

Amaranth,
Moderator
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#26748 - 06/20/08 12:40 AM Re: What Would We Choose To Do If... [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think Turtle asked a good question here:
Originally Posted By: TT
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
Do you normally think this way or are just sarcastic because your bored?

Maybe Turtle is just bored.

I (obviously) am a bit also.
wink

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