Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 388 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
G
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
G
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn7751

An object possibly twice the size of Pluto has been found - hiding in plain sight. The discovery could be the biggest world in the Kuiper belt of rocky objects that orbit the outer reaches of the solar system.

The find suggests more such objects are waiting to be discovered and is likely to reignite the fierce debate about what constitutes a planet.

On Thursday, an email with the subject, "Big TNO discovery, urgent" was sent to a popular astronomy mailing list. The message described the discovery of a "very bright" object that was creeping along slowly beyond the orbit of Neptune - making it a Trans-Neptunian Object, or TNO.

Its exact size cannot be determined because the reflectivity of its surface is not known. But if the reflectivity is as dim as most other distant, rocky objects that have been studied, it could be twice as wide as Pluto, which is about 2300 kilometres across.

Sleepless night

Jose-Luis Ortiz, an astronomer at the Sierra Nevada Observatory in Spain, and colleagues discovered the object when they re-analysed observations they had made in 2003. Then, they scoured older archives and found the object in images dating back to 1955.

Based on these so-called "precoveries", they calculated the object's orbit and sent urgent emails asking people around the globe to observe the new find.

Amateur observers Salvador Sanchez, Reiner Stoss, and Jaime Nomen found it on Thursday using a 30-centimetre telescope in Mallorca, Spain. "I am not going to sleep tonight," said Stoss, a mechanical engineering student in Darmstadt, Germany. "To find an object bigger than Pluto - it's like the X Prize," he said, referring to the $10 million prize for private spaceflight won in 2004.

The observations were then verified by the International Astronomical Union's Minor Planet Center (MPC) in Cambridge, Massachusetts, US, which designated the object 2003 EL61.

Time to move

The MPC reports the object is about 51 Astronomical Units from the Sun - 1 AU is the distance between the Earth and the Sun. Its orbit brings it comes as close to the Sun as 35 AU, while Pluto maintains an average distance of about 39 AU. "Someone should have found this before," Brian Marsden, director of the MPC, told New Scientist.

One reason they did not is the object's speed, suggests Stoss. Many surveys of Near Earth Objects take a trio of images spaced 20 minutes apart to search for telltale movement in relation to background stars.

But 2003 EL61 is too far away to detect its progress in that time. Ortiz's survey compares images taken a day apart. "They give the object time to move," Stoss says.

Another reason may be the plane of the object's orbit, says Tommy Grav, an astronomer at the University of Hawaii in Manoa, US. That plane is tilted by 28? with respect to the orbital plane of most planets, where surveys tend to scan the skies for Near Earth Objects.

Off kilter

2003 EL61 is even more off-kilter than Pluto, which orbits in a plane tilted by 17?. "Pluto was pushed out of the plane of the solar system when Neptune moved outwards" soon after the solar system formed, Grav told New Scientist. "It's possible this object has suffered something similar."

The discovery, coupled with other recent finds such as Sedna and Quaoar, suggests other large objects may lurk in the murky region beyond Neptune.

"Some people have claimed we'd never find something as bright as this out there," says Grav. "But there may be something even further out that's moving so slowly we haven't seen it yet."

And the discovery is likely to revive previous fierce debates about what constitutes a planet and even how astronomical objects are named. "But don't even start that discussion," Stoss jokes. He says future observations of the object's colour and brightness could reveal its true size, shape, rotation period, and any companion moons.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8756128/

.
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Nice find! Very interesting. Let's hope we hear more on this topic.

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,136
D
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,136
Or not.

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn7758

only 7 postings later on the same site.


DA Morgan
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
G
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
G
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally posted by Amaranth Rose:
Nice find! Very interesting. Let's hope we hear more on this topic.
The tenth planet 'Xena' is about 1.5 times larger than the ninth planet Pluto,
according to the tenth planet 'Xena' discovery team led by Jose-Luis Ortiz.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=Pluto+Xena&scoring=d

Garry Denke

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
G
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
G
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Or not.

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn7758

only 7 postings later on the same site.
Interesting is how the International Astronomical Union, upon learning of the magnitude of the find, bullied the Jose-Luis Ortiz' team out of their rightful 2003 UB313 discovery by designating it 2003 EL61.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/29jul_planetx.htm?list89139

Garry Denke

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
G
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
G
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
Planetoid discovery sets off scientific feud
'U.S., Spanish astronomers clash over Google search data'

October 17, 2005

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9727022/

LOS ANGELES - The discovery of a new planetoid has set off a bitter feud between American and Spanish scientists while raising questions about the ethics of Internet research.
The dispute began in July when Michael Brown, a professor at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, discovered a new planetoid in the solar system known as the Kuiper Belt.
Days before announcing his discovery, however, a group of Spanish astronomers claimed the new planetoid.
American researchers said they learned that the Spanish scientists had discovered where Brown was aiming a Chilean telescope by using an Internet search engine.
"This is a wake-up call for scientists," Brown said.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=nn&ie=UTF-8&q=Planetoid+Feud&filter=0

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
J
jjw Offline
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
J
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
Gary:

WHY?
2003 EL61 is even more off-kilter than Pluto, which orbits in a plane tilted by 17?. "Pluto was pushed out of the plane of the solar system when Neptune moved outwards" soon after the solar system formed, Grav told New Scientist. "It's possible this object has suffered something similar."

Why woould Neptune move outwards?
Why "soon after the solar system was formed"?
jw

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
G
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
G
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally posted by jjw004:
Why would Neptune move outwards?
Why "soon after the solar system was formed"?
See recently updated Wikipedia "Solar system" page, jjw004

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_system

Follow blue word(s) links

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
A most excellent link! Thanks, Garry!

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
J
jjw Offline
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
J
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
Hi Gary:

Thank you for the link. I read it and enjoyed it. Possibly due to my tired eyes I did not find the explanation for the "why" questions I posed. In any event I suspect it is lragely speculation because there was no one around during "the early formation of the solar system". When ever I see references to proposed happenings in the early formation of the solar system I try to note them for any possible explanation they may contain for the present solar system.
jw

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
G
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
G
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally posted by jjw004:
I did not find the explanation for the "why" questions I posed. In any event I suspect it is largely speculation because there was no one around during "the early formation of the solar system".
Origins of planetary systems are based upon theoretical gravitational interactions that are exerted between protoplanets, their planet-forming circumstellar disk, and excitation and propagation of spiral waves in such disks. Spiral waves are common in galactic disks and in planetary rings, and these waves are very effective at communicating angular momentum between a disk and an embedded perturber. Consequently, the propagation of spiral waves may be of considerable importance in a planet-forming environment as they can, for example, drive planet migration and also open gaps in a disk. The Kuiper Belt beyond Neptune preserves a dynamical record of formative events that occurred during the early history of the outer solar system. Kuiper Belt Objects have a rather peculiar distribution of orbits that strongly suggests that Neptune's early orbit had expanded outwards some 8 AU. To examine this in detail DR. JOSEPH M. HAHN (see who HE is below) used a symplectic N-body integrator to follow the orbital migration that occurs when the recently-formed giant planets gravitationally scatter the residual planetesimal debris from which they formed. Dr. Hahn is using this model to investigate the dynamical sculpting that occurs in the Kuiper Belt as Neptune migrates outwards. Detailed comparisons between the modeled and the observed Kuiper Belt endstates are being performed in order to rigorously test the planet-migration hypothesis. Neptune may also have launched spiral waves in the early Kuiper Belt, and studies of their dynamical as well as observational consequences are continuing.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/science/hahn/public/joe_hahn.html
Joe Hahn

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/science/hahn/web/research.html
HE THE MAN!

The Lunar and Planetary Institute is a focus for academic participation in studies of the current state, evolution, and formation of the solar system. The Institute is housed in the USRA Center for Advanced Space Studies (CASS), located at 3600 Bay Area Boulevard, Houston, Texas, 77058, and includes a computing center, extensive collections of lunar and planetary data, an image-processing facility, an extensive library, education and public outreach programs, resources, and products. The LPI also offers publishing services and facilities for workshops and conferences.

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
J
jjw Offline
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
J
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
Thank you again Garry.

I read the links and saved them in my favorites for further review. My previous remark should not have said "speculative" but rather "theories". I guess it is the "pushing" that is used confusing me on the "attractive force" concept. Thank for the prompt response.
jw


Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokÂþ»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5