Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion General Science Discussion Forum What is Time?

Great to hear from you after a long time.
What is equilibrium ?
When two opposites cancel out and remain in that State for time greater than 0.similary non-eqilibrium.
Thus both the Defintions requires exitence of Time.Thus it can not be the basis of Time Definition.
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How about this (non rigorous) definition appropriate for a multiverse.

An observer is ultimately just an algorithm that processes information. If you assume a multivere then the same algorithm will be implemented in amy different sectors. Time evolution is defined by the algorithm itself. I.e. if the algoritm is run then it maps itself to another algorithm.

Example: The precise way my brain works defines me. If you put all this information in a computer and write a program that simulates me then that program is ''me''. But if you run to simulate 1 second of time evolution then the algorithm effectively changes (because the brain isn't static). So, a new ''me'' is obtained that differes slightly from the old ''me''. The new version of me has subjectively evolved 1 second, even if the simulation of that single second took 1 billion years of computation.

In a multiverse setting all possible versions of me exist. Some are related to each other via ''subjective time evolution'' as described in the above example. So, the class of all versions of me can be split into subsets that can be ordered according to the subjective time evolution. Each version of me exists in the multiverse. But each element will have a memory of a ''previous'' version which is defined by this ordering.

Here I've ignored interactions with the environment, but that won't spoil this argument.

dkv:"What is equilibrium ?When two opposites cancel out and remain in that State for time greater than 0.similary non-eqilibrium.
Thus both the Defintions requires exitence of Time.Thus it can not be the basis of Time Definition."

dkv,try harder.Rule of a thumb:first think, them talk/write. You don't need time to define equilibrium. Equilibrium means lack of change, nothing happens.Change(non-equilibrium) means events that follow one after the other (causally related). How many ticks of the clock you want to measure between two events is a matter of convenience and convention.

Ibliss, along the lines you like, I have recently heard a talk about gravity being described as a language, with all the correspondingbellsand whistles, syntax, forbidden sequences, entropy,etc. You might like this thing, it is along the lines of your arguments. Sounded interesting, but it's not my style.Look up Maya Paczuski, she gave the talk.

Pasti, that sounds intersting!

Hello to you Pasti; I will try again:

Various postings have described time as motion (seems to be logical, no motion nothing happens.) and the Universe is full of motion. Some offer that time is fixed and some make arguments suggesting that time differs dependent on the speed of movement wherein the time is measured. I suggest that time can be relative in the every day use. When they did the Einstein fly clock experiment one clock going with the Earths rotation gained a little and one clock going in retrograde rotation travel lost a little. Uncle Al offered somewhere that movement had nothing to do with clocks. Possibly correct, especially if they are based on the decay of elements. All normal clocks use a balance wheel of sorts which would equate to a pendulum which in turn has a motion dependent on gravity of location and rotation of the planet upon which it is situated. Gravity, for every day time functions is an important factor. The old hour glass with the falling sand might run slower on the Moon due to the reduced gravity slowing the rate of fall. Possibly ? as fast as on Earth. That would be true for any change of venue going faster or slower in relation to the Earth surface gravity being less or more. I think this would also apply to most normal clocks which rely on some form of the pendulum. I contend that in the real world time is relative but still only a measure created by humans to keep track of things.

Returning to my last post I want to stress that ageing, as a measure of the passing of time may be environmentally related to the location of the person being measured. No one has spent a long time on any other planet so we have no criteria to compute. If gravity provides the wear and tare on our bodies not only would we live more comfortably on a planet with less gravitation we could actually live longer for the same reason. So, what is time? To me it is a useful measure but also a variable related to location and gravitational effect.
jjw

Hi Jim,

jjw:"Various postings have described time as motion (seems to be logical, no motion nothing happens),and the Universe is full of motion."

Jim, time is not motion, it is related to motion. The concepts must be (and are) in fact completely different.

jjw:"Some offer that time is fixed and some make arguments suggesting that time differs dependent on the speed of movement wherein the time is measured."

They are both right in a certain sense. Classically, galilean relativity tells you that in principle time could be absolute, while special relativity tells you that at high speed time is not absolute anymore.

jjw:"I suggest that time can be relative in the every day use."

Sure, no problem. But what do you mean by relative? In both instances I mentioned above, the words absolute and relative have a very exact meaning. What is the meaning of relative in the context of what you say?

jjw:"I contend that in the real world time is relative but still only a measure created by humans to keep track of things."

You can say that time is a human measure of keeping track of this.But this is only a "surface" argument. The more profound aspect is that as long as motion exists, nature itself orders events one after the other, so in this sense time is invented by nature itself, at the classical level.
As for the relativity that you mention, once again, you need to be more specific.

jjw:"Returning to my last post I want to stress that ageing, as a measure of the passing of time may be environmentally related to the location of the person being measured."

In special relativity you are correct, at least formally speaking. The "twins paradox" is well known, but one must be careful because it is an example referring only to the flow of time, not to the biological reaction to ageing with different time flows. Might sound like hair splitting, but it is worth mentioning.

jjw:"No one has spent a long time on any other planet so we have no criteria to compute. If gravity provides the wear and tare on our bodies not only would we live more comfortably on a planet with less gravitation we could actually live longer for the same reason."

May be true, but unfortunately you cannot use this as an argument pertaining to the nature of time.For the obvious reasons.

jjw:"So, what is time? To me it is a useful measure but also a variable related to location and gravitational effect."

True, in principle. Unfortunately, not in the classical theory that you use. From the viewpoint of Newtonian gravity, time is not affected by gravity. Mechanical clocks and pendulums are affected by gravity, but not the physical quantity they measure,i.e. not time.
Things change if you go to general relativity, but as far as I understand, you don't want to use this theory (not to mention that it would really be an overkill to use it for planetary motion unless you have a very good reason).

There was some ghost here I lost my reply somewhere.
jjw:"Various postings have described time as motion (seems to be logical, no motion nothing happens),and the Universe is full of motion."
Jim, time is not motion, it is related to motion. The concepts must be (and are) in fact completely different.
REP: Time is not motion.Time is A Dimension in
I-SAPCE. I-SPACE is pure Information holdable on any arbitary kind of Lowest Energy Matter Configuration.If the division of particles goes on indefintely on to the N+1 Value from N.
Then there exist a possibility of creating a Similars of the real world using a technology not understood by Us.
As we claim to not to understand my theory thus leaving a possibility of endless debate.
Therefore I am not last hope.
Many people will come and tell you the same thing.I told you in the most dramatized way as possible.Time is Information.Thats all.. Any Information means lack of Absoluteness in the Knowledge.Any claimed information which is not known is only the true information.Else it becomes a simple Reflex.With no information change.No relativity.I.which I associate to I-space is typical example of how We work.No one calls to tell you something you already know...No one takes any action whithout generating some ripple in the Abolute Knowledge.All actions have a purpose and you get affected by it.Thus Information in I space is Time.
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jjw:"Some offer that time is fixed and some make arguments suggesting that time differs dependent on the speed of movement wherein the time is measured."
They are both right in a certain sense. Classically, galilean relativity tells you that in principle time could be absolute, while special relativity tells you that at high speed time is not absolute anymore.
REP: Yes.
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jjw:"I suggest that time can be relative in the every day use."
Sure, no problem. But what do you mean by relative? In both instances I mentioned above, the words absolute and relative have a very exact meaning. What is the meaning of relative in the context of what you say?
REP:Einteins wrote the equation but we need to solve it.
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jjw:"Returning to my last post I want to stress that ageing, as a measure of the passing of time may be environmentally related to the location of the person being measured."
In special relativity you are correct, at least formally speaking. The "twins paradox" is well known, but one must be careful because it is an example referring only to the flow of time, not to the biological reaction to ageing with different time flows.
REP: Interesting I am impressed.
The Time I measure is something different and Time You measure is something different filled with all the possible bilogical consequences.. The Time Measurements are equally Valid.But the reality gets reflected in Higher or differnt combination of Dimensions or Qunatum States.
Higher Dimension Reduces Information.
Qunatum States Increase Information.
The Reality remains the Same.
But gets thorugh a Qunatum Evolution.With Observed facts depending on Spatial Locations.Everything can not be wirtten on one particle.It is everything.
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Might sound like hair splitting, but it is worth mentioning.
jjw:"No one has spent a long time on any other planet so we have no criteria to compute. If gravity provides the wear and tare on our bodies not only would we live more comfortably on a planet with less gravitation we could actually live longer for the same reason."
May be true, but unfortunately you cannot use this as an argument pertaining to the nature of time.For the obvious reasons.
jjw:"So, what is time? To me it is a useful measure but also a variable related to location and gravitational effect."
True, in principle. Unfortunately, not in the classical theory that you use. From the viewpoint of Newtonian gravity, time is not affected by gravity. Mechanical clocks and pendulums are affected by gravity, but not the physical quantity they measure,i.e. not time.
Things change if you go to general relativity, but as far as I understand, you don't want to use this theory (not to mention that it would really be an overkill to use it for planetary motion unless you have a very good reason).
REP: Things are going through a Prism of Time...What you see depends on where you sit.

dkv,try harder.Rule of a thumb:first think, them talk/write.
You don't need time to define equilibrium. Equilibrium means lack of change, nothing happens.
REP:Nothing Happens Means No New Information Gets Generated.Now if this what you call is Time then you are little wrong because Time stands for Unique Periodic Variation of anything.With Pendulum or Register..And least it is periodic Variation of Information from 0 to 1 in I-Space.
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Change(non-equilibrium) means events that follow one after the other (causally related).
REP: Events are not necessarily Causally related because the Information can also get lost ... leaving a loose state of Event appearing without a cause... But the cause can be reconstructed using more and more Information from the Present.
But the loose Event(without cause) can never be explained fully because of lack of past data or understanding accuracy.
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How many ticks of the clock you want to measure between two events is a matter of convenience and convention.
REP: Yes thats why the ideal clock will use the Periodic Space-Time Decay as its standard(in principle).The periodic information you lost in Anti-Gravity gets manifested as Increase in Information in Gravity.
Resulting in Decay of Old Quantum gravitational Space-Time(Dimesion , State configuration) to New Quantum Gravitational State.
Notice that Configuration Decays and not Space-Time itself.Group Manifests itself in different Form with or without any link(due to finite speed of information spread).
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Ibliss, along the lines you like, I have recently heard a talk about gravity being described as a language, with all the correspondingbellsand whistles, syntax, forbidden sequences, entropy,etc. You might like this thing, it is along the lines of your arguments. Sounded interesting, but it's not my style.Look up Maya Paczuski, she gave the talk
REP: Try m-theory .. it explains beautifully.

dkv, I won't even bother with your previous elucubrations about the universe and information. The only thing I will say is read more, learn more, and think more. Then talk/write.

dkv:"Nothing Happens Means No New Information Gets Generated.Now if this what you call is Time then you are little wrong because Time stands for Unique Periodic Variation of anything."

Time is not in general periodic. In most cases it isn't, i.e. you don't have closed spacelike geodesics. As I said, read more, talk less.
As for your I-space, for the time being I will treat it simply as the fruit of your imagination.

dkv:"With Pendulum or Register..And least it is periodic Variation of Information from 0 to 1 in I-Space."

Pure baloney. You don't understand neiter the issue of time nor the issue of its measurement. measurement,


dkv:"Events are not necessarily Causally related because the Information can also get lost ... leaving a loose state of Event appearing without a cause... "

You have no clue what causality means, in the context of GR. You are improvising with pitifully few resources.

dkv:"Yes thats why the ideal clock will use the Periodic Space-Time Decay as its standard(in principle).The periodic information you lost in Anti-Gravity ..."

"Alice in Wonderland" make infinitely more sense than your aberations.

dkv:"Try m-theory .. it explains beautifully."

Are you on some medication?Did you at the very least underdstand what I was trying to Ibliss?

What an utter waste of bandwidth dkv. You could spend much better the time you waste to pollute the forum, say by rading a book...

say is read more, learn more, and think more. Then talk/write.
REP: Not needed.
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dkv:"Nothing Happens Means No New Information Gets Generated.Now if this what you call is Time then you are little wrong because Time stands for Unique Periodic Variation of anything."
Time is not in general periodic. In most cases it isn't, i.e. you don't have closed spacelike geodesics.
REP: We are talking about Time as an Independent dimension.Uncertainity Principle Puts a limit on it.And you are using the Word Geodesics which is
the net resultant of All the Dimesions involved.
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As I said, read more, talk less.
REP:How do you know that I dont know and am not well read.What proof do you have that I am an Idiot. :-))
That can not be criteria to argue.Take it cool.
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As for your I-space, for the time being I will treat it simply as the fruit of your imagination.
REP: THis space has Absolute Information Embedded in it .. The Actual Space is Dual in my imagiantion ... I-Space(absolute) and C-Space(relative).
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dkv:"With Pendulum or Register..And least it is periodic Variation of Information from 0 to 1 in I-Space."
Pure baloney. You don't understand neiter the issue of time nor the issue of its measurement.
measurement,
REP: AS I had said there are always two cases Measurment and No-Measurement with every event. I agree that Time is not simple concept to understand but since 0 dimesional objects can be created and studied on paper I think we can safely approximate Time as change in Information.
The rate of Change of Information (+ or-) reduces or increases the accuracy of time measuement. But the Time remains the same.Atomic Clocks are more accurate than digital ones.At any stage of Universe there exist a Way of Measuring Time by recalibrating or reconstructing the Clock by creating new Energy Wells within a new framework of reconfigured Dimension and States.
Much before the Black Hole Event Horizon.The Dimensions start changing its own Configurations.
What is observable there can be very different from what gets predicted here.
Relativity doesnt say that the Clock start running slowly in every frame.Relatively the values differ.But each of the Refernce Frames hold to their Times.The mixing of differentited Time and Space Configuration Produces A new Set Dimensions and Quantum States which is consistent with itself.I-Space projects the Reality in the fashion consistent with two reference frames.A return after 10 min journey and 100 year absence could result in some confusion if we assume that the Dimensional Configuration are same.Thats all I have to say right now.
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dkv:"Events are not necessarily Causally related because the Information can also get lost ... leaving a loose state of Event appearing without a cause... "
You have no clue what causality means, in the context of GR. You are improvising with pitifully few resources.
REP: Causality in the context of GR doesnt violate Cause and Effect Rule in Forward Time.
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dkv:"Yes thats why the ideal clock will use the Periodic Space-Time Decay as its standard(in principle).The periodic information you lost in Anti-Gravity ..."
"Alice in Wonderland" make infinitely more sense than your aberations.
REP: That wasnt a good argument against mine.
Alice in Wonderland has many parallels to the Quantum World as Observed By us but From Electrons View we can have A Different Truth. There are too many consequences of it. That I wish to open them slowly .. I guess there is no other way.
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dkv:"Try m-theory .. it explains beautifully."
Are you on some medication?Did you at the very least underdstand what I was trying to Ibliss?
What an utter waste of bandwidth dkv. You could spend much better the time you waste to pollute the forum, say by rading a book...
REP: Thats shows desperation of a weird kind when I wish yo make you a winner.
Go ahead and add your comments to the m-theory and I will reply.

Question (from dvk):
"How do you know that I dont know and am not well read. What proof do you have that I am an Idiot"

Answer:
Reading what you have posted.

As Samuel Clemens wrote:
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

You have removed all doubt.

So What do you say about it.
The theory is shining it its ability to express elegance and beauty and Universe..
A truth so simple that Einstein would have kissed me.But sadly the experiment required for its verification makes the Understanding Dual...
Very few understand truly the meaning of what Feynman and Einstein Said.
And there are fewer of the kind who understand what I mean.Pasti it appears is one of them...
He had impressed me with his discussion on the Number Transformation 'Trick' which I had used to show that Truth can not oscillate between Maths and Physics.The Entire Truth can be found in m-theroy.
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Morgan has always been my mirror of arrogance and ignorance.
but in many ways he has helped me find my Answers.
So you are somewhere in the middle in my Universe.I refuse to accept anything lower than that...

Hm, you wonder whay you could be considered an idiot? Although I did not make such a statement, I will provide you with arguments in support of it.

Take the hypotheses of your theory. BTW,according to your statemets in that post, they are equally the proof and the fundamental assumptions of your theory! From the start this is a strong indication about the fact that you have no clue of what you are talking about.

dkv:"1.The Universe is composed of Groups of Information.(Single Valued , Multi Value.. etc)"

While it sounds pompous, it doesn't say much. You offer no proof or at least example on which your assumption is based.You also offer no definition of what your elucubration means, what it does, etc. You are just stringing words regardless of their meaning.

As the poet says: "It is easy to write verses/When you have nothing to say/Stringing empty words together/Riming only in the tail/"

dkv:"2.All the Groups Exist on Space Time (which is a line between Maths and Physics).Therefore all Groups attract."

This simply makes no sense.The Universe IS the the spacetime. This means,according to your above definition that spacetime is made of groups which are defined on spacetime, which is made of groups whih are defined defined on spacetime which is made of...etc. The conclusion would be that groups are defined on themselves, and what is more interesting, they also attract, whatever that means. Would you care to elucubrate, pardon me,elaborate on the details of your definition?

As I said, the Easter Bunny in "Alice in Wonderland" makes more sense than you do.

dkv:"3.No Absolute measurement is ever made.(It predicts that Space Itself always Travles at speed of Light but not the Measured Photon.. it is obvious when we see that Vaccum is not a Vaccum at all)or alternatively assume that a Mesurement is always always made.Also In other words it means that There is No Begining or End of an Experiment.. (punch line ...There is no Memory... or all memeory.)"

This does not make sense, once again.Space itself travels at the speed of light but not the photon?
Space itself travels in wha' at the speed of light? And the photon's speed is,in your acception, what?

As I said before, are you on any medication? 'cause it aint working!

dkv:"4.Let us assume that MultiDimensional Unique Quantum Garvitational States can be constructed."

Well,then construct one!This I would like to see, really. I am all ears.

dkv:"5.Let all events be equally likely."

This is patently untrue. In atomic physics,for example,you have forbidden events(transitions) and allowed transitions. So of all the possibilities/possible events, some are more likely and some are not likely at all. And of those that are likely to happen, some are more likely than the others (in spectroscopy, this is a known and proven experimental fact).

So exactly how would you characterize someone who talks non-sense, believes he is a genius,tries to convince the others that he is a genius by talking even more nonsense, and does not even want to perceive how ridiculous he is?

What is time? Stuff happening and being noticed by other stuff happening.
To be more specific: continuous cycles comparing themselves to other continuous cycles and some non-continuous cycles.

Rob: What is time? Stuff happening and being noticed by other stuff happening.
To be more specific: continuous cycles comparing themselves to other continuous cycles and some non-continuous cycles.

Noticed?

The "movement" of time can be thought of as the increase in entropy. As time goes on, entropy increases.

To be more specific: continuous cycles comparing themselves to other continuous cycles and some non-continuous cycles.
REP: That is close to the Truth.Cycles concept is important.It is Cyclic Part which we measure or can be measured for time.Rest is just renormalized against cyclic 'understanding'.

dkv, take heart.

I do not understand you -but- I am not supposed to understand you. My concern is what will my condition be when and if I start to understand you? Cheers!
jw

the real question is; why isn't everything suspended in non- motion? The answer is; because of the rules of physics. Therefore, we see that time is merely a product of the rules of physics.

Rob:"the real question is; why isn't everything suspended in non- motion? The answer is; because of the rules of physics. Therefore, we see that time is merely a product of the rules of physics."

You are setting the stage for a circular argument. The remaining part of the argument you have omitted reads something like this:"...and the rules of physics are nothing else that the laws of nature expressed in a different (mathematical if you like it better) language, so time is merely a product of nature."

Now the circular argument is complete and you are back to the question of what time is.