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#1956 10/22/05 04:18 AM
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what do you guys think of my formula for time?
Time = Present + (0.0recurring1 * infinity)

ROB: Time is Dimension.. and if you want to express it as formula please wait .. as we you grow with our discussion.Go thorugh all the concepts discussed by Great Scientists ... dont miss Einstein , Feynman and Stephan Hawking.
Heisenberg had said a truth too heavy for his time and I dont think you should understand it the way he told..
Go through some of threads on MEasurement as well.

Wish you good luck.

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#1957 10/24/05 09:03 PM
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Did time begin with the Big Bang?
________

#1958 10/25/05 03:10 AM
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Did time begin with the Big Bang?
No.
The 3-D Spatial Location of Big Bang is not known.
It took palce in one of those so called Closed Dimensions.Some say it was the 11th Dimension.
That makes the number 11 very special.

#1959 11/02/05 01:36 AM
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The question what is time has generated many ideas and quotes, all of which are both entertaining and informative. There is a human element that I think was not adequately covered. I guess you could say there is real time and theoretical time. From my standpoint theoretical time deals with the scientific study of natural phenomenon where in altered time, as opposed to real time, is used to explain or try to explain some observed or tested happening.

Real time is what we live by. We are an Earth focused species that wants to interpret almost all circumstances in terms of Earth factors. Pick up an average book on astronomy and you will find almost all references in terms of Earth relation ships. Every planet has so many Earth days ? not rotations. Mass is shown as Earth =1 and then how the rest equate, like Jupiter is 317 times us.
My point is that if time was a stand alone fact Earth relationships are not at all meaning full in real time for what is going on in space. On planet Earth we live so many years composed of 365 days because it takes us that long to make a trip around the sun. If you lived on Mars it would take about 668 Earth days for the same trip, does that mean that time is traveling slower on Mars and we would live more days there in the same number of years or possibly would it mean more years? Time is an important measure only so long as it is not flexible. When we measure time it must relate to something specific. I will cut this short but it is important not to let clever or important theories, as yet evolving, influence your concept of when you must be at work tomorrow. For me time is a measure that we created to tell today from yesterday- never to be repeated, or duplicated in the exact same way.
jw

#1960 11/03/05 05:01 AM
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The question what is time has generated many ideas and quotes, all of which are both entertaining and informative. There is a human element that I think was not adequately covered. I guess you could say there is real time and theoretical time. From my standpoint theoretical time deals with the scientific study of natural phenomenon where in altered time, as opposed to real time, is used to explain or try to explain some observed or tested happening.
Real time is what we live by. We are an Earth focused species that wants to interpret almost all circumstances in terms of Earth factors.
REP: I dont want to give any privelge to any living species of Life.
Therefore such distinction is not required my theory.
==========================================
Pick up an average book on astronomy and you will find almost all references in terms of Earth relation ships. Every planet has so many Earth days ? not rotations. Mass is shown as Earth =1 and then how the rest equate, like Jupiter is 317 times us.
My point is that if time was a stand alone fact Earth relationships are not at all meaning full in real time for what is going on in space. On planet Earth we live so many years composed of 365 days because it takes us that long to make a trip around the sun. If you lived on Mars it would take about 668 Earth days for the same trip, does that mean that time is traveling slower on Mars and we would live more days there in the same number of years or possibly would it mean more years?
REP: No.You can always standardize such simple cases. However please note that even after standarization there will always be relative difference in the measurement due to the finite speed of Information Spread.Making the inprinciple Clock Syncronization a false understanding of the nature of Time.
In short things are relative but to what extent is determined by Eintein's equation only(with subsequent corrections).
==========================================
Time is an important measure only so long as it is not flexible. When we measure time it must relate to something specific.
REP:"Specific" word sounds to me like an attempt to make an Absolute measurement.
Specific to me can be different from your specific.Time is not only an import measure but it is the foundation of Dimensional Growth.
========================================
I will cut this short but it is important not to let clever or important theories, as yet evolving, influence your concept of when you must be at work tomorrow. For me time is a measure that we created to tell today from yesterday- never to be repeated, or duplicated in the exact same way.
REP: Time is a consequence of relative understanding or measure.
===================================

#1961 11/04/05 05:23 AM
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http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/051028_brain_time.html

"I would argue that time is more fundamental than space, because one can just close one's eyes and relive memories, going back in time, or prospectively go forward in time to predict something, without actually changing your position in space." -Duke neuroscientist Warren Meck

Circadian Clock: The most important rhythm in chronobiology is the circadian rhythm, which refers to an approximate 24-hour daily biological cycle; however, many other important cycles are also studied, including:

Infradian rhythms, which are long-term cycles, such as the annual migration or reproduction cycles found in certain animals or the human menstrual cycle.
Ultradian rhythms, which are short cycles, such as the 90-minute REM cycle in sleep or the 3 hour cycle of growth hormone production. They have periods of less than 24 hours.
Tidal rhythms, commonly observed in marine life, which follow the (roughly) 12-hour transition from high to low tide and back. -Wikipedia

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.t...mp;filetype=pdf

"The mammalian circadian clock resides in neurons in the hypothalamic suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN). Our results suggest dynamic chromatin remodeling in the SCN occurs in response to a physiological stimulus in vivo".

Others believe time can be manipulated: http://www.timetravelfund.com/

"On planet Earth we live so many years composed of 365 days because it takes us that long to make a trip around the sun. If you lived on Mars it would take about 668 Earth days for the same trip, does that mean that time is traveling slower on Mars and we would live more days there in the same number of years or possibly would it mean more years?"
-jjw004
Could you kindly explain this in more detail?

My take, do the best you can with the time you are given.

Sincerely,


"My God, it's full of stars!" -2010
#1962 11/05/05 10:03 PM
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Mung quotes:

?On planet Earth we live so many years composed of 365 days because it takes us that long to make a trip around the sun. If you lived on Mars it would take about 668 Earth days for the same trip, does that mean that time is traveling slower on Mars and we would live more days there in the same number of years or possibly would it mean more years?"
-jjw004

Mung asks, ?Could you kindly explain this in more detail??

JW Rep: I am not sure what there is to explain. Suppose you were born on Mars instead of Earth. Your year would be about 686.95 sidereal days or you could say 686.95 Earth days that would mean nothing to you on Mars because your actual rotations (days) would be about 669.62. Also your day would not have 86,400 seconds because you rotate slower than the Earth giving you about 88,642 seconds in each day. When you grew up you would use a time schedule that made sense for Mars and you would not give a damn about Earth time. My reference to this circumstance was meant to emphasize how our time is invented relative to the Earth. If we live an average of 72 Earth years and lived 72 years on Mars we would (669.62/365.25) be living 1.83 times as long on Mars in the same number of years. I suppose I wanted to stress how focused we are on the Earth as if it was the center of everything. There is still the far out possibility that Earth time frames do not properly apply everywhere. Another example is that Pluto takes about 248 earth years to make one revolution around the Sun. By Earth standards we would not live more than a third of a revolution of Pluto. If organic aging is fixed to earth dwellers we can speculate it may be different elsewhere.
This helps?
jjw

#1963 11/07/05 06:03 AM
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Time is not Organic or In-Organic.
Time is a Standard Measure defined by measuring intrument Clock.(Note that what is measured inside is anything with regularly periodicity giveing a sense of time)
For other Dimensions it is not so,unless we are looking at the crystal.
Therefore Time is always periodic it its manifestaion(eye based,feel based or heart based). Space is not required to be periodic ..Therefore a dual nature(organic-inorganic) is confined to Spatial Manifestation... There is always a possibility of findind a common Measuring Instrument.
However Qunatum Physics puts a limit on this ability and that all it does.
Therefore the relative measurement is relative only by the sense of relativity defined by Mr.Einstein and Quantum Physics .. nothing more .. nothing less (it hardly matter whether it was a 100 m race or 1000m race.We know which instrument to look at to realize how much time has passed)

#1964 11/07/05 06:48 AM
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How about this: at classical level, time is just a direct consequence of dynamics (motion).If there is no motion, there is no time. Perfect equilibrium means time hasno meaning. Non-equilibrium means gives time a meaning.

Leave neuroscientists alone on this one and think about the above.

#1965 11/07/05 07:42 AM
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Great to hear from you after a long time.
What is equilibrium ?
When two opposites cancel out and remain in that State for time greater than 0.similary non-eqilibrium.
Thus both the Defintions requires exitence of Time.Thus it can not be the basis of Time Definition.
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#1966 11/07/05 01:15 PM
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How about this (non rigorous) definition appropriate for a multiverse. smile

An observer is ultimately just an algorithm that processes information. If you assume a multivere then the same algorithm will be implemented in amy different sectors. Time evolution is defined by the algorithm itself. I.e. if the algoritm is run then it maps itself to another algorithm.

Example: The precise way my brain works defines me. If you put all this information in a computer and write a program that simulates me then that program is ''me''. But if you run to simulate 1 second of time evolution then the algorithm effectively changes (because the brain isn't static). So, a new ''me'' is obtained that differes slightly from the old ''me''. The new version of me has subjectively evolved 1 second, even if the simulation of that single second took 1 billion years of computation.

In a multiverse setting all possible versions of me exist. Some are related to each other via ''subjective time evolution'' as described in the above example. So, the class of all versions of me can be split into subsets that can be ordered according to the subjective time evolution. Each version of me exists in the multiverse. But each element will have a memory of a ''previous'' version which is defined by this ordering.

Here I've ignored interactions with the environment, but that won't spoil this argument.

#1967 11/07/05 05:59 PM
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dkv:"What is equilibrium ?When two opposites cancel out and remain in that State for time greater than 0.similary non-eqilibrium.
Thus both the Defintions requires exitence of Time.Thus it can not be the basis of Time Definition."

dkv,try harder.Rule of a thumb:first think, them talk/write. You don't need time to define equilibrium. Equilibrium means lack of change, nothing happens.Change(non-equilibrium) means events that follow one after the other (causally related). How many ticks of the clock you want to measure between two events is a matter of convenience and convention.

Ibliss, along the lines you like, I have recently heard a talk about gravity being described as a language, with all the correspondingbellsand whistles, syntax, forbidden sequences, entropy,etc. You might like this thing, it is along the lines of your arguments. Sounded interesting, but it's not my style.Look up Maya Paczuski, she gave the talk.

#1968 11/07/05 06:22 PM
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Pasti, that sounds intersting!

#1969 11/08/05 01:24 AM
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Hello to you Pasti; I will try again:

Various postings have described time as motion (seems to be logical, no motion nothing happens.) and the Universe is full of motion. Some offer that time is fixed and some make arguments suggesting that time differs dependent on the speed of movement wherein the time is measured. I suggest that time can be relative in the every day use. When they did the Einstein fly clock experiment one clock going with the Earths rotation gained a little and one clock going in retrograde rotation travel lost a little. Uncle Al offered somewhere that movement had nothing to do with clocks. Possibly correct, especially if they are based on the decay of elements. All normal clocks use a balance wheel of sorts which would equate to a pendulum which in turn has a motion dependent on gravity of location and rotation of the planet upon which it is situated. Gravity, for every day time functions is an important factor. The old hour glass with the falling sand might run slower on the Moon due to the reduced gravity slowing the rate of fall. Possibly ? as fast as on Earth. That would be true for any change of venue going faster or slower in relation to the Earth surface gravity being less or more. I think this would also apply to most normal clocks which rely on some form of the pendulum. I contend that in the real world time is relative but still only a measure created by humans to keep track of things.

Returning to my last post I want to stress that ageing, as a measure of the passing of time may be environmentally related to the location of the person being measured. No one has spent a long time on any other planet so we have no criteria to compute. If gravity provides the wear and tare on our bodies not only would we live more comfortably on a planet with less gravitation we could actually live longer for the same reason. So, what is time? To me it is a useful measure but also a variable related to location and gravitational effect.
jjw

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Hi Jim,

jjw:"Various postings have described time as motion (seems to be logical, no motion nothing happens),and the Universe is full of motion."

Jim, time is not motion, it is related to motion. The concepts must be (and are) in fact completely different.

jjw:"Some offer that time is fixed and some make arguments suggesting that time differs dependent on the speed of movement wherein the time is measured."

They are both right in a certain sense. Classically, galilean relativity tells you that in principle time could be absolute, while special relativity tells you that at high speed time is not absolute anymore.

jjw:"I suggest that time can be relative in the every day use."

Sure, no problem. But what do you mean by relative? In both instances I mentioned above, the words absolute and relative have a very exact meaning. What is the meaning of relative in the context of what you say?

jjw:"I contend that in the real world time is relative but still only a measure created by humans to keep track of things."

You can say that time is a human measure of keeping track of this.But this is only a "surface" argument. The more profound aspect is that as long as motion exists, nature itself orders events one after the other, so in this sense time is invented by nature itself, at the classical level.
As for the relativity that you mention, once again, you need to be more specific.

jjw:"Returning to my last post I want to stress that ageing, as a measure of the passing of time may be environmentally related to the location of the person being measured."

In special relativity you are correct, at least formally speaking. The "twins paradox" is well known, but one must be careful because it is an example referring only to the flow of time, not to the biological reaction to ageing with different time flows. Might sound like hair splitting, but it is worth mentioning.

jjw:"No one has spent a long time on any other planet so we have no criteria to compute. If gravity provides the wear and tare on our bodies not only would we live more comfortably on a planet with less gravitation we could actually live longer for the same reason."

May be true, but unfortunately you cannot use this as an argument pertaining to the nature of time.For the obvious reasons.

jjw:"So, what is time? To me it is a useful measure but also a variable related to location and gravitational effect."

True, in principle. Unfortunately, not in the classical theory that you use. From the viewpoint of Newtonian gravity, time is not affected by gravity. Mechanical clocks and pendulums are affected by gravity, but not the physical quantity they measure,i.e. not time.
Things change if you go to general relativity, but as far as I understand, you don't want to use this theory (not to mention that it would really be an overkill to use it for planetary motion unless you have a very good reason).

#1971 11/09/05 06:32 AM
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There was some ghost here I lost my reply somewhere.
jjw:"Various postings have described time as motion (seems to be logical, no motion nothing happens),and the Universe is full of motion."
Jim, time is not motion, it is related to motion. The concepts must be (and are) in fact completely different.
REP: Time is not motion.Time is A Dimension in
I-SAPCE. I-SPACE is pure Information holdable on any arbitary kind of Lowest Energy Matter Configuration.If the division of particles goes on indefintely on to the N+1 Value from N.
Then there exist a possibility of creating a Similars of the real world using a technology not understood by Us.
As we claim to not to understand my theory thus leaving a possibility of endless debate.
Therefore I am not last hope.
Many people will come and tell you the same thing.I told you in the most dramatized way as possible.Time is Information.Thats all.. Any Information means lack of Absoluteness in the Knowledge.Any claimed information which is not known is only the true information.Else it becomes a simple Reflex.With no information change.No relativity.I.which I associate to I-space is typical example of how We work.No one calls to tell you something you already know...No one takes any action whithout generating some ripple in the Abolute Knowledge.All actions have a purpose and you get affected by it.Thus Information in I space is Time.
===============================================
jjw:"Some offer that time is fixed and some make arguments suggesting that time differs dependent on the speed of movement wherein the time is measured."
They are both right in a certain sense. Classically, galilean relativity tells you that in principle time could be absolute, while special relativity tells you that at high speed time is not absolute anymore.
REP: Yes.
================================
jjw:"I suggest that time can be relative in the every day use."
Sure, no problem. But what do you mean by relative? In both instances I mentioned above, the words absolute and relative have a very exact meaning. What is the meaning of relative in the context of what you say?
REP:Einteins wrote the equation but we need to solve it.
=================================
jjw:"Returning to my last post I want to stress that ageing, as a measure of the passing of time may be environmentally related to the location of the person being measured."
In special relativity you are correct, at least formally speaking. The "twins paradox" is well known, but one must be careful because it is an example referring only to the flow of time, not to the biological reaction to ageing with different time flows.
REP: Interesting I am impressed.
The Time I measure is something different and Time You measure is something different filled with all the possible bilogical consequences.. The Time Measurements are equally Valid.But the reality gets reflected in Higher or differnt combination of Dimensions or Qunatum States.
Higher Dimension Reduces Information.
Qunatum States Increase Information.
The Reality remains the Same.
But gets thorugh a Qunatum Evolution.With Observed facts depending on Spatial Locations.Everything can not be wirtten on one particle.It is everything.
=========================================
Might sound like hair splitting, but it is worth mentioning.
jjw:"No one has spent a long time on any other planet so we have no criteria to compute. If gravity provides the wear and tare on our bodies not only would we live more comfortably on a planet with less gravitation we could actually live longer for the same reason."
May be true, but unfortunately you cannot use this as an argument pertaining to the nature of time.For the obvious reasons.
jjw:"So, what is time? To me it is a useful measure but also a variable related to location and gravitational effect."
True, in principle. Unfortunately, not in the classical theory that you use. From the viewpoint of Newtonian gravity, time is not affected by gravity. Mechanical clocks and pendulums are affected by gravity, but not the physical quantity they measure,i.e. not time.
Things change if you go to general relativity, but as far as I understand, you don't want to use this theory (not to mention that it would really be an overkill to use it for planetary motion unless you have a very good reason).
REP: Things are going through a Prism of Time...What you see depends on where you sit.

#1972 11/09/05 09:05 AM
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dkv,try harder.Rule of a thumb:first think, them talk/write.
You don't need time to define equilibrium. Equilibrium means lack of change, nothing happens.
REP:Nothing Happens Means No New Information Gets Generated.Now if this what you call is Time then you are little wrong because Time stands for Unique Periodic Variation of anything.With Pendulum or Register..And least it is periodic Variation of Information from 0 to 1 in I-Space.
==========================================
Change(non-equilibrium) means events that follow one after the other (causally related).
REP: Events are not necessarily Causally related because the Information can also get lost ... leaving a loose state of Event appearing without a cause... But the cause can be reconstructed using more and more Information from the Present.
But the loose Event(without cause) can never be explained fully because of lack of past data or understanding accuracy.
==========================================
How many ticks of the clock you want to measure between two events is a matter of convenience and convention.
REP: Yes thats why the ideal clock will use the Periodic Space-Time Decay as its standard(in principle).The periodic information you lost in Anti-Gravity gets manifested as Increase in Information in Gravity.
Resulting in Decay of Old Quantum gravitational Space-Time(Dimesion , State configuration) to New Quantum Gravitational State.
Notice that Configuration Decays and not Space-Time itself.Group Manifests itself in different Form with or without any link(due to finite speed of information spread).
==================================
Ibliss, along the lines you like, I have recently heard a talk about gravity being described as a language, with all the correspondingbellsand whistles, syntax, forbidden sequences, entropy,etc. You might like this thing, it is along the lines of your arguments. Sounded interesting, but it's not my style.Look up Maya Paczuski, she gave the talk
REP: Try m-theory .. it explains beautifully.

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dkv, I won't even bother with your previous elucubrations about the universe and information. The only thing I will say is read more, learn more, and think more. Then talk/write.

dkv:"Nothing Happens Means No New Information Gets Generated.Now if this what you call is Time then you are little wrong because Time stands for Unique Periodic Variation of anything."

Time is not in general periodic. In most cases it isn't, i.e. you don't have closed spacelike geodesics. As I said, read more, talk less.
As for your I-space, for the time being I will treat it simply as the fruit of your imagination.

dkv:"With Pendulum or Register..And least it is periodic Variation of Information from 0 to 1 in I-Space."

Pure baloney. You don't understand neiter the issue of time nor the issue of its measurement. measurement,


dkv:"Events are not necessarily Causally related because the Information can also get lost ... leaving a loose state of Event appearing without a cause... "

You have no clue what causality means, in the context of GR. You are improvising with pitifully few resources.

dkv:"Yes thats why the ideal clock will use the Periodic Space-Time Decay as its standard(in principle).The periodic information you lost in Anti-Gravity ..."

"Alice in Wonderland" make infinitely more sense than your aberations.

dkv:"Try m-theory .. it explains beautifully."

Are you on some medication?Did you at the very least underdstand what I was trying to Ibliss?

What an utter waste of bandwidth dkv. You could spend much better the time you waste to pollute the forum, say by rading a book...

#1974 11/09/05 01:23 PM
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say is read more, learn more, and think more. Then talk/write.
REP: Not needed.
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dkv:"Nothing Happens Means No New Information Gets Generated.Now if this what you call is Time then you are little wrong because Time stands for Unique Periodic Variation of anything."
Time is not in general periodic. In most cases it isn't, i.e. you don't have closed spacelike geodesics.
REP: We are talking about Time as an Independent dimension.Uncertainity Principle Puts a limit on it.And you are using the Word Geodesics which is
the net resultant of All the Dimesions involved.
===========================================
As I said, read more, talk less.
REP:How do you know that I dont know and am not well read.What proof do you have that I am an Idiot. :-))
That can not be criteria to argue.Take it cool.
=========================================
As for your I-space, for the time being I will treat it simply as the fruit of your imagination.
REP: THis space has Absolute Information Embedded in it .. The Actual Space is Dual in my imagiantion ... I-Space(absolute) and C-Space(relative).
========================================
dkv:"With Pendulum or Register..And least it is periodic Variation of Information from 0 to 1 in I-Space."
Pure baloney. You don't understand neiter the issue of time nor the issue of its measurement.
measurement,
REP: AS I had said there are always two cases Measurment and No-Measurement with every event. I agree that Time is not simple concept to understand but since 0 dimesional objects can be created and studied on paper I think we can safely approximate Time as change in Information.
The rate of Change of Information (+ or-) reduces or increases the accuracy of time measuement. But the Time remains the same.Atomic Clocks are more accurate than digital ones.At any stage of Universe there exist a Way of Measuring Time by recalibrating or reconstructing the Clock by creating new Energy Wells within a new framework of reconfigured Dimension and States.
Much before the Black Hole Event Horizon.The Dimensions start changing its own Configurations.
What is observable there can be very different from what gets predicted here.
Relativity doesnt say that the Clock start running slowly in every frame.Relatively the values differ.But each of the Refernce Frames hold to their Times.The mixing of differentited Time and Space Configuration Produces A new Set Dimensions and Quantum States which is consistent with itself.I-Space projects the Reality in the fashion consistent with two reference frames.A return after 10 min journey and 100 year absence could result in some confusion if we assume that the Dimensional Configuration are same.Thats all I have to say right now.
=============================================
dkv:"Events are not necessarily Causally related because the Information can also get lost ... leaving a loose state of Event appearing without a cause... "
You have no clue what causality means, in the context of GR. You are improvising with pitifully few resources.
REP: Causality in the context of GR doesnt violate Cause and Effect Rule in Forward Time.
===========================================
dkv:"Yes thats why the ideal clock will use the Periodic Space-Time Decay as its standard(in principle).The periodic information you lost in Anti-Gravity ..."
"Alice in Wonderland" make infinitely more sense than your aberations.
REP: That wasnt a good argument against mine.
Alice in Wonderland has many parallels to the Quantum World as Observed By us but From Electrons View we can have A Different Truth. There are too many consequences of it. That I wish to open them slowly .. I guess there is no other way.
=====================================
dkv:"Try m-theory .. it explains beautifully."
Are you on some medication?Did you at the very least underdstand what I was trying to Ibliss?
What an utter waste of bandwidth dkv. You could spend much better the time you waste to pollute the forum, say by rading a book...
REP: Thats shows desperation of a weird kind when I wish yo make you a winner.
Go ahead and add your comments to the m-theory and I will reply.

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Too many mistakes there ... beg your pardon for assaulting your taste of English ...

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