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#18219 - 02/17/07 06:56 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Australia
Rev- I stand for many things, (mostly nicely defined by terry in his excellent post). I just don't believe in the supernatural. I don't see gods etc in everything. That does not mean I do not wonder at things, and celebrate the fact that life exists and is amazing---I just don't see why it is necessary to think that any divinity has anything to do with it. Actually, to steal from terry, I'd call that a realistic view of existence,-and I'll stand by it.

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Of Interest?
#18220 - 02/17/07 06:56 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev- I stand for many things, (mostly nicely defined by terry in his excellent post). I just don't believe in the supernatural. I don't see gods etc in everything. That does not mean I do not wonder at things, and celebrate the fact that life exists and is amazing---I just don't see why it is necessary to think that any divinity has anything to do with it. Actually, to steal from terry, I'd call that a realistic view of existence,-and I'll stand by it.

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#18221 - 02/17/07 09:15 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Turner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 16
As the one who started this thread may I say: I find it very interesting. Each of you have made an excellent contribution, and you have done so while respecting the views of all involved. Good for you.

Keep on wondering, Ellis, it is the beginning of wisdom. It is how all children face life. I did. Like the Rev. I see the natural as being very super, especially the part of it I have not discovered, as yet.

BTW, let me ask the Rev. a question: Are you saying that you have discovered the only way to truth and that it has to be one that is supernatural?

I do not think you think this way, but I just want you to clarify what you mean, okay?


Edited by Turner (02/17/07 09:17 PM)

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#18223 - 02/17/07 11:49 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Turner, you are right. The natural is supernatural enough for me.

Recently (Feb. 12, 07), The http://www.globeandmail.com (Canada's daily paper) carried the story of Harvard professor Nima Arkani-Hamed. BTW, Dr. Arkani-Hamed began his education in maths and physics in a high school in North Toronto, not far from where I live.

The G&M reported that he, recently, gave a mind-bending lecture at Waterloo University, Waterloo, Ontario, on The Future of Fundamental physics. He and a group of like-minded mavericks are saying things like: "The scientific community is on the brink of a real revolution in the understanding of physics...Our entire universe could be this tiny, miniscule speck of nothing in this giant multiverse...our vast universe may be but one of billions, each governed by its own physical laws."

THE SPIRIT OF MATH

Interestingly, Charles Ledger, the math teacher who started Professor Arkani-Hamed on this creative approach to problem solving was present at the lecture. Years ago, he dubbed the program, not found in the regular texts, Spirit of Math.

The Spirit of Math inspires students to seek answers on their own, not by rote, and is clearly achieving positive results. It stretches the imagination, of those who want to be involved, to the limits.

For some of the practical applications of this kind of maverick thinking check out information of the:

LARGE HARDON COLLIDER mentioned in the G&M story.

http://www.interactions.org/LHC/what/index.html

May I suggest that this is the kind of approach we need to take to all kinds of human problems, including political, economic and social/spiritual problems, which need to be solved.









Edited by Revlgking (02/17/07 11:53 PM)
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#18228 - 02/18/07 08:23 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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IT IS WRONG TO IMPOSE BELIEFS
BTW, I forgot to mention, just as teacher Charles Ledger discovered, we all tend to be subject to what I call the law of spiritual inertia.
Every thinker tends to remain in the same state of thinking unless forced to think otherwise from within their own mind.

This is why Charles Ledger had to move his math program outside the regular school program.

As the old saying goes: One convinced against one's will is of the same opinion still.

I would add to this: It is wrong for anyone with strong beliefs and opinions to impose them, dogmatically, on others. Even valid beliefs and opinions are false if they are dogmatically imposed on others.



_________________________
G~~D~Forget the BB!ThinkGreat-Omni-Dazzlement!GeneratesOrganizes&Delivers www.flfcanada.com

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#18239 - 02/18/07 04:23 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1784
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
...It is wrong for anyone with strong beliefs and opinions to impose them, dogmatically, on others...

I don't seriously dispute the point, of course, but where do you draw the line? How would you feel about intervening to prevent human sacrifice, for example. Yes, I know it's extreme. I'm just testing the argument.
_________________________
Redshift: - the faster you drive toward a green light, the more likely it is to turn red - Murphy

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#18240 - 02/18/07 04:55 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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IMHO, witnessing, to others, what one's moral and ethical values are, is not the same thing as imposing them on others.

I have this strong feeling as to what is morally and ethically good for me; but I will leave it to you, as long as it does not impinge on my freedom, to choose what is good for you.

For example, as they were growing and developing, my wife and I gave our children--now with their own grown children--our witness as to what we held to be moral and ethical values concerning this that and the other thing; but, at no time, did we impose our values on them.

BTW, redewenwur, where did you get your name?


Edited by Revlgking (02/18/07 05:05 PM)
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G~~D~Forget the BB!ThinkGreat-Omni-Dazzlement!GeneratesOrganizes&Delivers www.flfcanada.com

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#18257 - 02/19/07 02:13 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1784
I should restate my question with a little scenario: You're deep in the Brazilian jungle and you encounter a small, previously unknown aboriginal tribe. They are peaceful and well-disposed to you but, in accordance with their religion, they are about to sacrifice a young girl to their god of fertility. Do you attempt to impose your own beliefs upon them in an effort to prevent the sacrifice?

My name? I once used 'fredsolo', simply because of the convenient location of the keys on the keyboard. I found that on some forums, young ladies sometimes got the wrong message! I changed it to redewenur (ready when you are) without much forethought - and it's probably even worse! lol.
_________________________
Redshift: - the faster you drive toward a green light, the more likely it is to turn red - Murphy

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#18260 - 02/19/07 04:34 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Lindsay. You wrote:

"The Spirit of Math inspires students to seek answers on their own, not by rote, and is clearly achieving positive results. It stretches the imagination, of those who want to be involved, to the limits."

I gather this sums up your belief that religion is a personal thing. I agree. But, in relation to your threads on economics, unfortunately people seem remarkably ready to follow all sorts of gurus out to make money off them. Dan's recent comments on the Exxon bribes thread gives us some idea why.


Redewenur. You wrote:

"Do you attempt to impose your own beliefs upon them in an effort to prevent the sacrifice?"

I'd say not. You might point out that in your society it's not done and perhaps explain philosophical reasons why not. But by attempting to impose your own beliefs you might finish up with two sacrifices. By the way, I imagined your name was Thai!

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#18266 - 02/19/07 07:03 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Turner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 16
Speaking to the Rev, you write, "I gather this sums up your belief that religion is a personal thing." and you add, "I agree."

BTW, the Rev and I particiapte in the forum at http://www.brainmeta.com We seem to be on the same wave length there.

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#18274 - 02/20/07 11:19 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1784
Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
Redewenur. You wrote:

"Do you attempt to impose your own beliefs upon them in an effort to prevent the sacrifice?"

I'd say not. You might point out that in your society it's not done and perhaps explain philosophical reasons why not. But by attempting to impose your own beliefs you might finish up with two sacrifices. By the way, I imagined your name was Thai!

Interesting. Let's pursue it a bit: You happened to bring with you a well armed platoon, and have the requisite force to remove the girl from danger, set yourself up as the new village leader, and impose your will.

Now what do you do?

No, I'm not Thai. I'm an ex-pat cockney Eastender from London E.17. smile
_________________________
Redshift: - the faster you drive toward a green light, the more likely it is to turn red - Murphy

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#18282 - 02/20/07 08:44 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Australia
Ah! the Cortez option---well yes I'd charge in backed up by my trusty platoon, and rescue the fair maiden. Whereas, if I were on my own and I would like to think that I would attempt to stop the sacrifice, I really probably wouldn't. Nothing to do with belief, more to do with "Might is Right" in the first instance and and self-preservation in the second.

However I don't think that respect for another person's culture or religion should allow them to harm their fellow citizens in the name of tradition or cultural pracice. And having stated that caveat I would not expect anyone to embrace my beliefs and culture because only I know the truth. I just don't support human sacrifice!

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#18284 - 02/20/07 09:57 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Redewenur. A Pom. You do pose an interesting ethical problem. I suppose with an army you can impose any rule you want, including banning human sacrifice. But without an army it usually pays to be diplomatic. As I said you could become a second sacrifice. In case you're worried, no, I don't support human sacrifice. Mind you, I've never tried it.

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#18289 - 02/21/07 11:40 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1784
Ellis & terrytnewzealand: Yes, in reality we tend to take the pragmatic approach; we try to ensure that business is conducted the way we see fit, and that others cooperate with our own view of what's ethically right and wrong, but only to a limited extent. With regard to behaviour that we see as 'wrong', we generally ignore the trivia as being unworthy of our intervention, giving ourselves a pat on the back for being fair, tolerant, and broadminded. On more serious matters, we are often prepared to take action, and sometimes drastic action.

The reason I posed the question -

"You're deep in the Brazilian jungle and you encounter a small, previously unknown aboriginal tribe. They are peaceful and well-disposed to you but, in accordance with their religion, they are about to sacrifice a young girl to their god of fertility. Do you attempt to impose your own beliefs upon them in an effort to prevent the sacrifice?"

- was to try to illicit a response in relation to Revlgking's comment:

"It is wrong for anyone with strong beliefs and opinions to impose them, dogmatically, on others"

The members of the tribe have very strong religious beliefs. They believe that their very existence depends on human sacrifice. They do not believe that it's wrong. For them, not only is it right, but their god demands it.

Along you come with the power to impose, with impunity, your own very strong beliefs, i.e. "Thou shalt not kill", or something to that effect.

How does Revlgking's comment stand up to the situation?

Why am I asking the question? Because, I think given ever increasing opposition to our beliefs/convictions, the point in time comes at which we confront that opposition - given the power to do so; at what point that occurs depends on personality, strength of convictions, emotional involvement etc.

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#18294 - 02/21/07 02:16 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2156
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Turner
Redewenur....In case you're worried, no, I don't support human sacrifice. Mind you, I've never tried it.
How about canibalism? I once tried eating a clown, but I didn't like the funny taste in my mouth!!!! laugh laugh


Edited by Revlgking (02/21/07 02:20 PM)

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#18295 - 02/21/07 05:29 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Australia
Red (Incidentally I have recently started to do cryptic crosswords and I nearly fell off my chair when I worked out your nom-de-plume!) To return to the Cortez example---the Incas + others didn't do too well after they were stopped from carving hearts out of living human sacrifices, so maybe there is something in it. On the plus side the New Guinea tribe which ate their catives' brains no longer get the prion disease, Kure, so banning cannibalism has had a good outcome.



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#18305 - 02/22/07 11:22 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 816
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
I think, Ellis, you mean Kuru. And you're right, putting a stop to cannibalism stopped the spread of Kuru.

Amaranth
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#18307 - 02/22/07 12:39 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1784
Yes, yes, quite so, but you fellows are evading the philosophical point! Would you, or would you not, impose your beliefs on others, if you believed that the good results of doing so would outweigh the bad?
_________________________
Redshift: - the faster you drive toward a green light, the more likely it is to turn red - Murphy

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#18311 - 02/22/07 03:58 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2156
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
RedE, you write: "Along you come with the power to impose, with impunity, your own very strong beliefs, i.e. "Thou shalt not kill", or something to that effect."

Interestingly, if you read Exodus you will soon discover that Moses was a warlord; he killed people, regularly. The commandment was a prohibition against murder--the killing of innocent people for no reason other than personal gain.


Edited by Revlgking (02/22/07 03:59 PM)

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#18313 - 02/22/07 04:33 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

"Yes, yes, quite so, but you fellows are evading the philosophical point! Would you, or would you not, impose your beliefs on others, if you believed that the good results of doing so would outweigh the bad? "

The problem with philosophy is that invariably its practitioners begin thinking its results are equivalent to knowledge gained through science. We innately believe that what we value has some significance external to us - that it's fixed, and understandable, and that our formulaic principles must always stay in tact. This is because we like to know. We don't like to think or believe or suspect. We like to KNOW. And when we don't know, we make stuff up.

People want to have ready-made "knowledge" and ready-made ethics that could hypothetically be encoded in an expert system. "What should I do in this situation?" Then the expert system asks you a whole bunch of questions and spits out a defensible answer.

But I don't believe human ethics is that simple. We might say, "Always this" or "Always that," but we should realize - consciously - that those are heuristics.

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