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#17958 - 02/02/07 07:40 PM Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including,
Turner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 16
Not much room for naming a real title that makes sense. Why the limitation, I wonder? In other forums there seems to be lots of room to spell out a title. How come the rationing, here?

What I would like to know is: What is your philosophy of religion, including atheism?

Regarding this topic, I may choose to just sit back and read. But I will read, and listen. Meanwhile, I will add to the other and current thread, as is appropriate.


Edited by Turner (02/02/07 09:21 PM)

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Of Interest?
#17963 - 02/02/07 09:45 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Philosophy of religion?

My philosophy is that there are two types of religion. One in which people have personal belief systems both moral/ethical and with respect to the nature of reality and their environment and the good sense and culture to treasure them as personal beliefs.

And then there are those who are self-annointed, self-righteous hypocrites that use people's inate "need" to know the answers to life's big questions to parasitize them for their personal financial gain.

Just once I'd like to find someone publicly proclaiming they have all of the answers with one hand who isn't holding out the other hand asking for money and the power to offer up advice on how you could improve yourself if you just did what they want you to do.

Let me give you a perfect example. We have a troll here in this group selling fuzzy thinking and vague ideas, on subjects of which he is truly as ignorant as my cat. He tries to quote authorless scripture he has never read with one hand while asking for money with the other.

And anyone who actually looks into the so-called Reverend's background quickly discovers that his actual skill set is as a hypnotherapist (well if that doesn't qualify him to speak about and for god I can't imagine what would).
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#17965 - 02/02/07 11:20 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: DA Morgan]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1487
Loc: Australia
I'm a bit scared to post really!!! But here goes.

Atheism is not a religion. It is not a faith. It is not a belief. It's a recognition of fact.

Many people get comfort and strength from religion. I am not one of them but I repect their belief in a supernatural being and do not characterise their belief as undesirable because I do not share it. Neither do I characterise their deeply felt conviction of the reality of the existence of a god as a deluded belief, when in fact it is for many their reason for living- the meaning of life. I just don't share it because I approach this topic differently.

I assume there is no god. Simple. As I said in the other post-no one can prove there is, I can't prove there isn't--but to me it seems infinitely more likely that I am completely right on this one. I simply don't have any reason to think that the supernatural world exists and I cannot understand why anyone has difficulty understanding that. Why tie yourselves up in knots and get angry about this? God had a good go- he/she/it failed to convince some people of his/her/ its existence. You who believe know I'm wrong, so tell me why you think I'm wrong. Prove it to me if it means so much to you and why does it mean so much to you that I "believe" in something.

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#17967 - 02/02/07 11:48 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Online   content
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
THANK, ELLIS, FOR AGREEING TO GET INVOLVED
Ellis, fear not, I respect your approach to the subject at hand. On the one hand, I am not an atheist. However, on the other hand I am not a traditional theist. Therefore, I respect, and have no quarrel with those who have problems with the traditional concept of god as a personal and super being, separate and apart from us human beings.

May I also add that, unless it can demonstrate to me that it does contribute to the public good, I am not a fan of any organized and institutional religion which claims it has a hot line to God.



_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#17969 - 02/03/07 09:23 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Well done Ellis. When speaking intelligently, thoughtfully, and precisely, there is never a reason to fear.

Even were I to disagree with you I would respect you. Whereas the self-annointed reverend has yet to do anything other than layer fuzzy thinking over vague nonsense. If he was correct, even if I were to agree with him, his lack of mental self-discipline would be unworthy of respect. Let me give you an example. Suppose someone writes:

"We should stop torturing people because the invisible purple rhinoceros says so."

I would agree with the concept of stopping torture. But the author, having justified it with an imbecility, would still be unworthy of respect.

There is no god, provable, because were there one the universe would be no different than it is today.

I have to howl at those who watch a tornado rip through town tearing down houses of the rich, the poor, good citizen and bad, businesses, schools, and churches with an equal lack of regard. If their invisible purple rhino actually existed ... just once ... he'd have left the church standing: He never, ever, does!
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#17970 - 02/03/07 01:59 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Online   content
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
If anyone can make logical sense out of the totally fuzzy post, above, will you please let me know what sense it does make.

And who is the "self-annointed reverend" who believes in an "invisible purple rhinoceros" (IPR). Is it DAM? I think I read that he said he believes in the IPR. smile


Edited by Revlgking (02/03/07 02:03 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#17972 - 02/03/07 03:29 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
"Sir, I have found you an explanation,
but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."
~ Samuel Johnson

"Ministers say that they teach charity.
That is natural.
They live on hand-outs.
All beggars teach that others should give."
~ Robert Ingersoll
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#17973 - 02/03/07 03:56 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Online   content
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
St. Anonymous wrote:
Quote:
I love having a battle of wits; however, I never attack people who are only half-armed.
laugh

Interestingly, most atheists I have met are usually positive, kind and caring--at least those at brainmeta.com are--thank G?D! And they usually stay on topic.

Moderator: BTW, I will be happy to start a KNOCK-THE-REV THREAD, for those who are addicted to knocking Revs and Religions. And I am serious. We all love a good fight.

Then we can save this thread for those of us who enjoy the serious discussion of the philosophy/psychology and art of religion. Lurkers, wade in!!!!

However, I do not mind a good laugh, now and then.

_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#17976 - 02/03/07 04:48 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Can't blame the saint for wishing to stay anonymous.

But lets see if we can summarize what has happened so far:

1. You've never once discuss science at a science website.
2. You've never once posted a link to anything related to science.
3. You've quoted books with no author that you have never actually read.
4. You claim to be a reverend and do not have a Doctorate of Divinity
5. You only survive on the charity of others
6. You expect others to pay taxes to subsidize you

This is Kate's site and if she sees value in allowing this nonsense that is her right and privilege. I find it morally and ethically untenable to let the fuzzy thinking of a parasite stand unopposed in the marketplace of ideas.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#17979 - 02/03/07 09:42 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Revlgking Online   content
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
DAM, your personal comments about me and questions to me belong in the "Knock-Revs-and-Religions thread. I will answer them there. OK? Meanwhile let us keep this section for philosophy and art.
===============================================================To
to illustrate my philosophy of religion, I offer the following story:

There was once a brilliant computer scientist and technologist, who also happened to be a sincere and reluctant theological skeptic. He developed what he believed was a powerful, voice-activated computer, which he claimed was also infallible.

INFALLIBLE COMPUTER
He told his friends, "My computer is capable of answering any question about physical, mental and spiritual matters any human being is capable of asking."

One of his female friends was a theologian. So he invited her over, along with a few other friends and experts, to be among the first to put his infallible computer to the test.

At the meeting, first the experts in the arts and the sciences asked their questions. No matter what question was asked, the computer responded, verbally, and with precision. It was able to answer every physical and mental raised, in detail.

Everyone present was amazed and very impressed.

Then it was the theologian's turn. First, she asked some very tricky questions about the Bible, church history and about the religions of the world. Again, the computer had no problem giving the correct answers.

THE ULTIMATE QUESTON
Then she said, "If you truly are an infallible computer, I assume that you already know that I have my doubts as to the existence of God."

"Therefore, I have one more question.

"Is it true that there is only ONE True God?"

First, there was a period of silence. Then, suddenly, out of the silence, the computer became a beautiful pink cloud, which filled the whole room.

Out of the pink cloud came a powerful and resonant voice which said:

"THERE IS, NOW!" smile
========================
THINK ABOUT IT: If we really did have an infallible computer which knew the answer to all our questions, we would have G?D.

PART OF MY PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION IS AS FOLLOWS
Practically speaking, I believe that we actually DO invent and/or discover the kind of god who we use to serve our purposes. This is why we have numerous religions.

However, beyond this there is still G?D, the ultimate uncreated creator.
--------------------------0000000000000000000--------------------


Edited by Revlgking (02/03/07 10:03 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D~The Gift of Oneness & Delight. It Generates Organizes & Delivers: The good we Will to have.


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#17989 - 02/04/07 02:52 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Ellis wrote:

"when in fact it is for many their reason for living- the meaning of life."

Now I'd be surprised if even atheists don't have ideas they accept but cannot prove that serve exactly this purpose. I say we could call this religion. This doesn't at all mean atheism is a religion. Simply that most humans have some beliefs that might be called religious. Perhaps this is what Turner is trying to explore on this thread.

DA agrees with part of his own quote:

"We should stop torturing people because the invisible purple rhinoceros says so."

Why do you believe we should stop torturing people, DA? Can you provide a sound scientific reason, or is it because of your religious beliefs?

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#17996 - 02/04/07 11:42 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
An excellent question TNZ. In the interest of intellectual integrity I must acknowledge that there is no reason grounded in scientific principles. It is just a personal preference somewhat of the order of I prefer lamb to chicken or I prefer Thai curries to Indian curries.

I think we should stop torture for several reasons.

First and most important to protect myself and those I care about. (if I am anything it is brutally honest)

Second because it has been proven by history that all torture does is beget more torture.

Third because it has proven totally unreliable in providing substantive information.

But back to religion ... one might note that almost all torture in history has been done in the name of nationalism or religion.
People, except the very sickest, don't commit torture unless they have a prop onto which they can justify their actions by appealing to a so-called higher good.

My feeling is that if god doesn't like what I am doing ... he can damn well get off his fat behind and stop me.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#18001 - 02/04/07 04:21 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
THINK ABOUT IT: If we really did have an infallible computer which knew the answer to all our questions, we would have G?D.


I disagree. We would have a computer that is omniscient. That's all. Not omnipotent or anything else that appears in the job description for the post of God.

Blacknad.

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#18002 - 02/04/07 04:54 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Blacknad]
Revlgking Online   content
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Good point, Blacknad. But keep in mind: I am not being a literalist, here. My story is like a parable. Omnscience is all-inclusive. It could lead me to all-power, etc. NOT in me, or you, but in all that is, okay?

Let's dialogue until we understand one another, okay?

For example, what is your concept of God? How flexible are you?


Edited by Revlgking (02/04/07 08:08 PM)

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#18006 - 02/04/07 09:59 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
DA wrote:

"But back to religion ... one might note that almost all torture in history has been done in the name of nationalism or religion."

Perhaps, therefore, we should regard nationalism as a religion? As Blacknad pointed out some time ago a great deal of destruction was wrought by Fascism and Communism last century. Perhaps they too should be regarded as religions? We could then blame all destruction on religion, by definition.

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#18011 - 02/05/07 12:16 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
TNZ wrote:
"Perhaps, therefore, we should regard nationalism as a religion?"

I do. I think they are just different manifestations of the same desire to belong, to have some alpha make decisions for us, and to be able to justify that which otherwise we would need to wear around our necks as unforgiveable.

I really doesn't matter whether you blame it on religion, nationalism, school spirit, or whatever. That which appeals to the human spirit to proclaim itself important by virtue of membership rather than virtue itself is a crutch more dangerous than heroin and crack cocaine.

Blacknad ... any civilization more than 100 years more advanced than us in terms of technology would be perceived as magic: Omnipotent and omniscient.

Why are you feeding the troll? He has no interest in science? He has no interest in any serious discussion. He is just here to hijack Kate's site to sell his brand of snake oil. Just another charlatan with a collar.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#18012 - 02/05/07 04:51 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
People, except the very sickest, don't commit torture unless they have a prop onto which they can justify their actions by appealing to a so-called higher good.


We are in broad agreement.

However, Sam Harris, the USA's leading atheist who argues that 'humanity can only survive the next few centuries by renouncing religion altogether', also defends the use of torture.

"I am one of the few people I know of who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror."
- Sam Harris.

Its a complex, subjective, funny old world.

Blacknad.

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#18013 - 02/05/07 04:58 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Good point, Blacknad. But keep in mind: I am not being a literalist, here. My story is like a parable.


Revlgking,

When I exhibit any fuzzy or unsubstantiated thinking, I expect to be cut down, and often have been.

There is no room for parables on this site.

Blacknad.

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#18021 - 02/05/07 01:29 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Online   content
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2267
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
DA wrote:...Perhaps they too should be regarded as religions? We could then blame all destruction on religion, by definition.
TNZ, if this is how you think, allow me to ask:

What about the destruction caused by diabolic and evil scientists? Does this make all science evil?

No doubt there are diabolic and sick leaders of sick religions, but does this mean that all religion--the kind, for example, exhibited by people like Martin Luther King and Mother Theresa--is evil?

BTW, I try to carefully avoid judging, without evidence, and offering vague generalizations based on misinformation and prejudice. IMO opinion such actions are problematic.

Is condemnation, without real evidence, ever acceptable? And what about vague generalizations based on prejudice? Look where this kind of thinking landed the Bush administration.

Well, I await your opinion.


Edited by Revlgking (02/05/07 02:44 PM)

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#18026 - 02/05/07 03:42 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Blacknad wrote:
"However, Sam Harris, the USA's leading atheist who argues that 'humanity can only survive the next few centuries by renouncing religion altogether', also defends the use of torture."

My feeling about Sam Harris is the same as my feeling about Albert Einstein or Charles Darwin: One man's opinion. No more or less valid except when it applies to science where it must be peer reviewed and validated. Thai curry vs. Indian curry is a matter of opinion. The boiling point of water is not.

I've as much use for Sam Harris as I do for any other self-anointed zealot. Who elected Sam Harris to represent anything or anyone? Why he did of course.
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DA Morgan

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