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#42088 01/10/12 07:46 PM
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Presently boys are diagnosed autistic much more often than girls. In fact some, Baron-Cohen for instnce, describe autism as a hyper masculinized brain. Will that ratio change as girls are taught similarly to girls? If more girls are diagnosed autistic in the future, won't that be evidence that adaptations are the result of living conditions, rather that "natural selelction" doing something (???) to random mutations?

Berthajane Vandegrift
A Few Autistic Questions about Freud, Marx and Darwin.

http://30145.myauthorsite.com/

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Quote:
In fact some, Baron-Cohen for instnce, describe autism as a hyper masculinized brain.


It would be interesting to know how these people define “a hyper masculinized brain”.

Quote:
Will that ratio change as girls are taught similarly to girls?


Assuming the second “girls” should be “boys”; I feel sure there will be lots of studies in the future, but for the moment speculation is all we have. The same really applies to your final sentence, but there would be a lot of other social/educational/psychological considerations that would have to be taken into consideration. I would be very surprised if different experts were not able to draw entirely different conclusions from the same evidence.


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Having an Autistic cousin I have done alot of reading on the condition here is the current scientific take on the condition.

Autism has been studied extensively in idential twin studies and it appears to be neither genetics not actual physical enviroment but something in the womb that provides the risk for Autism .. so in a way you are born with the risk but it's not truely DNA genetic.
(http://blog.autismspeaks.org/2011/07/04/autism-prenatal-risk-factors/)

The process is called epigentics. Basically the expression of the DNA genes has some control for enviroment.

Epigentic explaination Layman references:
http://ec.europa.eu/research/headlines/news/article_05_07_27_en.html

Epigentic explaination Technical references:
http://www.pnas.org/content/102/30/10604.full
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics


So what the identical twin studies are throwing up is the two children are DNA identical and the Autism is diagnosed usually between 12-24 months and in that time the twins usually share almost identical enviroments.

In the womb however the identical enviroment is not as uniform the twins share a common placenta and one twin may have more or less of the blood flow etc.

From recent studies in brain scans we can actually see autistic children brains are different and similarly scan of identical twins with and without autism show the same changes.

So current science thinking is that some trigger in the womb sets the development of the brain on a different path and the brain is essentially created different in structure.

So why more boys than girls well it turns out one of the risk genes involved which is subject to these epigenetic effects is more common in boys than girls it is called CACNA1G (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1899756,00.html)

Than gene is involved in the sex hormone levels and we now find that in Autistism it brings about a striking difference in the brain (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-autism-strikes-more-boys-than-girls)


So as a long answer to your question you can teach them anyway you like you will not change Autistic rates between girls and boys because the actual science is reasonably understood and autistic children are born with autism because something occurred in the womb.


Autism rates are on the rise so the biggest question that is being asked at the moment is what are modern women doing that is increasing the risk of autistic children or was the rate always high and just not reported.


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What an excellent post Orac. There is so much 'folklore' now about autism. We are only just finding out the reason why some people are autistic, and as you say it seems to be that it is conditions pre-birth that have the most influence. It is interesting that many mothers are deeply worried about their child's development very soon after birth, and they are labelled as fussy or over-protective. It is then an easy step to suppose that her attitude encouraged the condition. This is not an acceptable point of view any more, though at one time it was common.

Some autistic children, however, do develop within normal parameters and then at 18-20 months begin to either lose skills or demonstrate bizarre behaviour. This is very devastating for the whole family and they try to remember what happened then that could have caused this change.

The issue of education for these children is dependent on the severity of their condition. It would have nothing to do with education being 'girl's' or 'boy's'. In fact I don't know what the terms would mean. There is some concern at the moment that teaching sought in the 80s and 90s to involve girls more in classroom debate, and to present, for eg, maths and science in the form of problem solving, as that style was more attractive to girls. It has succeeded in that girls are academically now out performing boys, but I doubt if denying girls a more meaningful education would help lower the number of boys having autism.

The disparity between the numbers has been well-explained by Orac. It is most likely determined before birth, and it would seem that some prenatal cause will be discovered.

However 40 years ago the criteria for diagnosing autism was very rigid. There were 10 specific areas that had to be present in the child before diagnosis could be reached. This is not so now and so, I think, that could be a reason that the numbers have increased. There simply are more 'lenient' tests.

Personally I do not think that a teaching style would predispose a child to become autistic. Possibly specific skilled teaching can help with dealing with autism. It is however an unpredictable condition, and quite baffling to doctors, family and teachers alike.

Last edited by Ellis; 01/11/12 03:51 AM. Reason: clarity
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
The issue of education for these children is dependent on the severity of their condition.


Sadly, it also depends, to a great extent (in UK at any rate) on the Local Education Authority involved, and on such factors as whether or not the Psychiatric Services become involved.

Between 1987 and 1999 I was involved with a number of families, particularly with children suffering from Asperger's Syndrome, who were fighting, with a singularly difficult LEA, for appropriate education, and also struggling to prevent the Psy. Services from "providing treatment" which was often very unhelpful.

If there was a trace of bitterness in my comment about experts, that is its origin.

I must echo Ellis's praise for Orac's excellent post.


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I should also have mentioned the very controversial factor of the acceptance of the child's condition by the parents. Whilst disability in children is a life long regret and distress for parents it does seem that the diagnosis of autism is especially hard to come to terms with. The children are often spectacularly good-looking. They are also spectacularly badly behaved and their parents (and carers) are often blamed for this. In fact blaming is often a feature of life for those with these children and can sometimes delay the recognition of the diagnosis and deepening the sadness and distress, often leading to understandable anger.

I agree that Education Authorities can be a huge blocker, but there can be an excellent outcome for the education for people with disabilities (often thanks to parental lobbying).

Early recognition and intervention are often the key to successful outcomes for these children. There is no blanket 'treatment' that 'cures' autism however and the adult person with autism often finds that it can be difficult to find a meaningful future. This is not an area that is well-covered by Authorities or society in general unfortunately.

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Originally Posted By: Bill S.


I must echo Ellis's praise for Orac's excellent post.


yip.

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
I agree that Education Authorities can be a huge blocker, but there can be an excellent outcome for the education for people with disabilities (often thanks to parental lobbying).


Absolutely right. Of course, the fact that I was actively involved in home education issues a the time did nothing to endear me to the LEA.

Incidentally, my first contact with the writing of David Deutsch was his contribution to a book of advice to home educatior.


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Bill S- Did you see the item on the news on SAGG's Home Page? The gastrointestinal thing has been a recognised feature of autism for quite a while, and many people with autism make very restricted, even bizarre, food choices. The reason why though has always been a mystery. It's good to see some research in this area though it is a bit chicken and eggish--- as in, is the bacteria present because of the autism-- or is it vice-versa? Or perhaps it makes no difference at all to each other?

What I meant by good educational outcomes is that often it is hard for parents not to try all the different "cures" available, I'm sure I would too as their desperation is very real. However there are techniques that, with hard consistent work by parents and educators do achieve some success with some children. There is limited time for this though, and adults with autism often find that support is very hard to find unless a certain level of acceptable social behaviour has been achieved.

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Thanks Ellis, I hadn't seen it. As it is now 2.30am I think I shall leave it until tomorrow. No, that should be later today. smile


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I agree that the "conclusions" are "a bit chicken and eggish", but with such a small sample it would probably be rash to try to be more specific.

At the opposite end of the scale from the parents who try all possible "cures" are those who refuse to acknowledge that there is anything intrinsically wrong, and try to treat their autistic children as though they were just being "difficult". This can produce some distressing results.

Since I retired, I have maintained some contact with one young man, and his family, who for a long time treated him as though his behaviour was entirely under his control. His treatment by the M H services was disastrous and resulted in a number of suicide attempts. I liaised with his GP, with limited success. Fortunately, some of his family members have come to realise the reality of the situation and he is now getting more support, but there is a long way to go.

Not surprisingly, I too am very pleased to see that some research is being done.


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Exactly as you said Bill S autistics brains are physically wired differently every science study has shown that

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110902133042.htm
http://www.jove.com/video/3178/probing-the-brain-in-autism-using-fmri-and-diffusion-tensor-imaging
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/15680740


The behaviour, eating etc follow directly out from that different brain structure.


What the twin studies are showing is that it is the devolopment in the womb that creates the autistic brain development.


As I said the question has been why is the autism rate increasing and the spotlight has been firmly turned on the taking of folate supplements by pregnant mothers in devoloped countries.


The first hints came from looking at the rate changes on a country by country case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_autism


The first tentative studies show the link is possible although far from confirmed.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/743620
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18514430
http://www.jnutbio.com/article/S0955-2863(06)00027-1/abstract

Last edited by Orac; 01/18/12 03:53 AM.

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I am inclined to think that, as far as one can generalise, ASDs have this in common with the typical “Hare” psychopathy; that the underlying condition is genetic, but the nature of the physical expression depends to a great extent on a range of other factors.


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So in the absence of the genetic factor the environmental influence would not be enough, on its own, to generate autism. Is that correct?

Earlier Orac mentioned folate, I think as the cause of autism. I found the information hard to read, and a few of the links did not work on my computer.

If this is so, where would discouraging the use of folate leave the well-proven case for adding folate to the diet of pregnant women to help prevent neural-tube defects such as spina bifida?

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Is folate the same as folic acid?

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
So in the absence of the genetic factor the environmental influence would not be enough, on its own, to generate autism.


That is my understanding of the situation, but my active experience is over a decade out of date now, and a lot happens in that time.


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I find it very interesting to see this at last, in print, something which I had always actually believed would be proved true. Like you I am 10+ years out of the field but even then there were still people who really believed in the environmental causes of various disabilities. This was especially true of autism with the cruel 'cold mother' theory. That was the cause of far too much added despair-- and even now it is sometimes referred to as the cause.

At least genetic research is illuminating causes, though overcoming the effects seems as faraway and baffling as ever.

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Yes, Ellis, Folate and Folic acid are the same thing. Folate is a metal salt of Folic acid, they differ only in their effect on the pH of a solution.


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

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Quote:
This was especially true of autism with the cruel 'cold mother' theory.


Absolutely! IMO there are plenty of life's problems that can legitimately be blamed on parenting, without adding others.


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