Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 181 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
In their very interesting--that is, to me--book, WILLPOWER--Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength , the authors, Roy F. Baumeister--social psychologist at Florida State University and the writer and science columnist--John Tierney of the New York Times, make the following clear:
If we want to have--And who doesn't?
1. a close-knit family
2. a good career
3. good health and
4. the freedom to pursue our passions,
the first thing we have to learn is how to harness self-control--what I call the pneuma (self) factor.

If Baumeister's thesis, that it is a science, is right--and I feel that it is--here are just a few questions I have been asking all my life:
1.Is self-control a science? Or
2.are we the simply the accidental victims of our DNA and our ecology--heredity and environment?
3.If it is a science, what is the next step?


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
"1.Is self-control a science? Or"
- It's a mental faculty. Perhaps it will one day be well understood through neuroscience.

"2.are we the simply the accidental victims of our DNA and our ecology--heredity and environment?"
- The answer may be "yes" irrespective of the answer to "1.".

"3.If it is a science, what is the next step?"
- That would depend upon the specific new knowledge available.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
I think a lot depends on how you define science. During Social Work training, I tended to make myself unpopular by insisting that "social science" was not really science.

There is also the question: does willpower have to be labelled "science" in order to work?


There never was nothing.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.”
Marcus Aurelius


There never was nothing.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
From http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Decisions+maxed+Montreal+researchers/6030734/story.html

In a new book, Willpower: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength, authors John Tierney (a New York Times science writer) and Roy Baumeister (Psychologist) argue (not dialogue wink ) that willpower is a limited resource and that when we overdraw from this finite bank of mental energy, typically levelheaded people lose their self-control and start to make bad decisions.

"Making decisions consumes willpower and the basic energy the mind and the body have. After making multiple decisions, you have a reduced amount of energy available, and then decision fatigue sets in," says Baumeister, a social psychologist at Florida State University, in Tallahassee, who teamed up with New York Times journalist Tierney to write the book.

Through a series of experiments, Baumeister found that willpower could be depleted in much the same way that driving consumes the gasoline in a car's fuel tank. Resisting the temptation of a chocolate bar or forcing yourself to go for a run in the morning before work reduces the amount of "energy" available to exert control over future actions, he says. He wondered whether he would see the same effects when people were asked to make decisions over and over again.


---------------------------

It would seem we should refrain from making too many decisions... But wait.. How and when will I decide when to make a decision and not to make a decision??? How will I know if I have enough pneuma to make the right decision??!!!! confused I think my pneuma is out of control.. frown

OH G-0-D... where is the goodness, the order.. the power of infinite mind when our greatest asset (pneuma) is so limited? cry

Question: Isn't the title heading (Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength) and the argument for the subject/title (willpower is a limited resource) a contradiction in terms when the argument posits that The greatest human strength is so fragile, limited and easily overtaxed?
Or does this just point to the idea that humans are basically weak, fragile and easily confused by their own inherent tendency to think?
---------------------------------------------------------
Is Psychology a Science?


The skeptical reader may wonder what psychologists and psychiatrists have to say about the scientific standing of their own field. As it turns out, the more perceptive among mental health professionals freely admit their field is not based in science.

http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html

Last edited by Tutor Turtle; 02/10/12 05:27 PM. Reason: I had overtaxed my willpower and made some bad decisions

I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
There is also the question: does willpower have to be labelled "science" in order to work?

So that's why I have trouble getting out of bed in the morning!


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
I'm aware there are studies showing that those who exercise self-control are much more successful by almost every imaginable criterion.

I'm also vaguely aware that we have some ability to influence and train the brain - sometimes in ways that are useful and sometimes in ways that are deleterious.

There's nothing inherently unscientific about the subject, Rev, but whenever someone shows up with a quizzical look on his face and wad of cash, you can be sure there will be lots of entrepreneurial spirits eager to sell a remedy for his confusion. I'm interested to know if there are specific methods the authors suggest and, if so, the extent to which the efficacy of those methods is supported by controlled studies.

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
Quote:
whenever someone shows up with a quizzical look on his face and wad of cash, you can be sure there will be lots of entrepreneurial spirits eager to sell a remedy for his confusion.


Why didn't I think of that? There could be a fortune to be made!


There never was nothing.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
whenever someone shows up with a quizzical look on his face and wad of cash, you can be sure there will be lots of entrepreneurial spirits eager to sell a remedy for his confusion.


Why didn't I think of that? There could be a fortune to be made!
How do you think the Vatican was built..


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
If David Bhom was right, we should have an infinite supply of willpower, energy etc at our disposal. All we need to do is tap into it. Sounds easy enough. smile


There never was nothing.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
Quote:
How do you think the Vatican was built.


I wasn't thinking of that size of fortune; more like enough to make "Energy saving myths" irrelevant.


There never was nothing.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
If David Bhom was right, we should have an infinite supply of willpower, energy etc at our disposal. All we need to do is tap into it. Sounds easy enough. smile


That would then necessitate the creation of a new chapter and verse, in the Reverends bible describing G-0-D.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
How do you think the Vatican was built.


I wasn't thinking of that size of fortune; more like enough to make "Energy saving myths" irrelevant.
You can give any surplus to me.
I have enough willpower to accept.

Last edited by Tutor Turtle; 02/10/12 06:51 PM. Reason: I willed the universe to change the post and verily it was so..

I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
A suggestion from a Human Resources Manager:

HOW TO PROPERLY PLACE NEW EMPLOYEES . . .

1. Put 400 bricks in a closed room.

2. Put your new hires in the room and close the door.

3. Leave them alone and come back after 6 hours.

4. Then analyze the situation:

a. If they are counting the bricks, put them in the Accounting Department.

b. If they are recounting them, put them in Auditing.

c. If they have messed up the whole place with the bricks, put them in Engineering.

d. If they are arranging the bricks in some strange order, put them in Planning.

e. If they are throwing the bricks at each other, put them in Operations.

f. If they are sleeping, put them in Security.

g. If they have broken the bricks into pieces, put them in Information Technology.

h. If they are sitting idle, put them in Human Resources.

i. If they say they have tried different combinations, they are looking for more, yet not a brick has been moved, put them in Sales.

j. If they have already left for the day, put them in Management.

k. If they are staring out of the window, put them in Strategic Planning.

l. If they are talking to each other, and not a single brick has been moved, congratulate them and put them in Top Management.

m. Finally, if they have surrounded themselves with bricks in such a way that they can neither be seen nor heard from, put them in Congress.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
TFF, you say
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
I'm aware there are studies showing that those who exercise self-control are much more successful by almost every imaginable criterion....
and you add,
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
There's nothing inherently unscientific about the subject, Rev...
Then you speak of your interest
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
I'm interested to know if there are specific methods the authors suggest and, if so, the extent to which the efficacy of those methods is supported by controlled studies.
TFF, thanks for your curiousity and for raising the important issues you do. WILLPOWER is about such topics as
INTELLIGENCE AND SELF CONTROL--qualities which, when cultivated, predict positive outcomes and great news for all of us.
BTW, using some of my personal supply of willpower, I have just about finished reading all 290 pages of WILLPOWER--the greatest human strength and the surest way to a better life.

Thus, as suggested in the Introduction(p.16), beginning about two weeks ago, I set myself a goal. To myself I said: You will read this book, as soon a possible. In addition, you will pay attention to the meaning of its message. Now, I am just about done.
==========================
Meanwhile, take a look at the following, which I will comment on, later. It just came to my attention from who knows from where:
http://www.hypnosisandsuggestion.org/

http://www.hypnosisandsuggestion.org/new-journal-launched-the-journal-of-mind-body-regulation.html


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Seems we are going into the area of suggestion and belief, as it applies to the power of free will.
Louise Hay is famous for pushing this idea as her reason for overcoming her cancer, and the belief that her method can work for anyone.

She has been writing books about this long before the one advertised in this thread.

Don't we automatically create our own realities according to that will which we all are inherently born with and choose to direct?

Would that then lead to the idea that the book being advertised has to do with focusing on an idea within a belief system or altering a belief to change the course of our experiences and our focus of intention?

Understanding the idea of hypnosis as the suggestion of idea and intent within the current belief system is it possible to add a belief or to erase one that exists in the subconscious with another?

Also, (as prescribed by the advertised book) is there really a limit to how many choices we can make before we exhaust our supply of rationality?



I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,490
E
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
E
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,490
TT wrote
"Also, (as prescribed by the advertised book) is there really a limit to how many choices we can make before we exhaust our supply of rationality?"

I agree that our supply of rationality may have limits--- but irrationality---now that seems to be limitless! I think it is sometimes true that the application of willpower to irrationality has a disappointingly successful result.

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
THANK YOU, MY FAIR LADY--for your pluck, not just your luck. Thanks also to Henry Higgins.
To ALFRED DOOLITTLE: With a little bit of pluck you won't need luck.
-------------------------------
WITH A LITTLE BIT OF PLUCK YOU'LL NOT NEED LUCK!
-----------------------------------------
I'M ONE WITH ME, therefore, I have willpower,
The power to think, to be and know I am.
I'M ONE WITH ME, therefore, I have willpower, but
With a little bit of pluck,
With a little bit of pluck,
I'll think and get to know I can.

With a little bit, with a little bit,
With a little bit of willingness and pluck.
With a little bit...(with a little bit)
With a little bit...(with a little bit)
When we all have pluck we don't need luck.

=============
The above was inspired (thanks) by the following words:

The Lord above gave man an arm of iron (will of iron?)
So he could do his job and never shirk.
The Lord gave man an arm of iron-but (will of iron?)
With a little bit of luck,
With a little bit of luck,
Someone else'll do the blinkin' work!
With a little bit...
with a little bit...
With a little bit of luck you'll never work!
================


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
B
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,570
Considering this is a science forum, is it surprising that no one has picked up the David Bohm lead-in, even if only to kick his ideas?


There never was nothing.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
For a change in pace I decided to visit
THE CENTER FOR INQUIRY
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/12699/#151208 This Forum has an interesting history. Feel free to pay a visit.

Interestingly, just when I needed it I got the following information from a fellow poster, Write4U
Quote:
One of my favorite physicists is David Bohm, who postulated an Implicate and Explicate order, where he proposed a state of Pure Potential (the implicate) which is expressed in reality as the explicate.

This is my personal metaphysical interpretation of “that which may become reality”, which is one of the definitions of Potential. Another definition of Potential is “a latent excellence”.

Of course there are many more definitions of the word, which are used in science and in everyday life by all.
Quote:
“The Explicate (that which makes clear) Order, weakest of all energy systems, resonates out of and is an expression of an infinitely more powerful order of energy called the Implicate (that which is interconnected) order.

It is the precursor of the Explicate, the dreamlike vision or the ideal presentation of that which is to become manifest as a physical object.

The Implicate order implies within it all physical universes. However, it resonates from an energy field which is yet greater, the realm of pure potential.

It is pure potential because nothing is implied within it; implications form in the implicate order and then express themselves in the explicate order.

Bohm goes on to postulate a final state of infinite [zero point] energy which he calls the realm of insight intelligence. The creative process springs from this realm. Energy is generated there, gathers its pure potential, and implies within its eventual expression as the explicate order.”

By Will Keepin, David Bohm, Noetic Science Journal
THE UNIVERSE AS HOLOGRAPH--In the later 1980's I heard David Bohm give a lecture on this at the University of Toronto.
http://fusionanomaly.net/davidbohm.html
========================================
The zero point,-0-, is what I have in mind when I use the acronym, G-0-D

Last edited by Revlgking; 02/18/12 09:56 PM. Reason: Always a good idea!

G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokÂþ»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5