A team was studying the long-term toxicology of C60
(fullerene, "buckyballs") by giving it to rats as a solution in olive oil. The control groups were water and olive oil without C60. The compound has already been shown to have no noticeable short-term toxic effects, so they probably didn't expect anything dramatic in the lower-dose long-term mode.

Wrong.
What they found was that the fullerene/olive oil group had their life spans extended by some 90%, which would make this mixture perhaps the most efficacious life-extended treatment ever seen in a rodent model. This is a very odd and a very interesting result.

The most likely mechanism for the life-extension effects is through oxidative stress and free radical scavenging.
There have been several reports of C60 as an antioxidant, and other reports that hydrated C60 does the opposite.
In this study, even at very low doses, C60 appears to protect rodents against carbon tetrachloride-induced liver damage, for example, which is known to involve a radical process. Significantly, it does so while showing protection against glutathione depletion, which also suggests that it's directly scavenging reactive intermediates.

The Author,
. Derek Lowe, (derekb.lowe@gmail.com) an Arkansan by birth, got his BA from Hendrix College and his PhD in organic chemistry from Duke.

****My thoughts
Buckyballs prolong life? Really? I thought Buckyballs were first discovered in Candle smoke? Urrgh.

Wonderful! Let me see, I'll need some candles and some olive oil to start making my own magical life extending elixir. Then I need to get some money to make a TV infomercial and I can get rich.

Bill Gill

for awhile maybe , at least until the FDA gets wind of it.
especially if it really works.

so 90% life extension in rats.

Oz has a underground water supply that causes livestock to
have a 100% longer life.

and olive oil has been used for thousands of years to treat illness , so why not?

maybe you could mix some of the olive oil and the OZ water
together and make even more !

it may even be the olive oil thats extending the rats lives.

just like silver has been used for thousands of years for treatment of illness you will probably find that you cant
advertise that it can be used to treat any illness.

because it cant be controlled by big pharma.

Until the next medical report in 10 years time that is builds up in the body over time causing cancer :-)

So steer away from this I have some perfectly good "snake oil" that does exactly the same thing and if you order now I will throw in some steak knives.

Not just that for a limited time if you place your order I will give you a second bottle of "snake oil" to share with a friend or love one.

So don't delay send mail-order or cheque to the address below.

Orac's "snake oil" life extender
C/O Make Orac Rich Company
Cayman island bank deposit number 10011

orac

have you heard that olive oil builds up in the body?

I know that silver hangs around in the body for 5 days
and if you take too much it can build up in the body
and cause your fingernails and skin to turn blue.

but as soon as you stop overdosing the silver your skin and nails return to their normal color.

I have never read that silver has any adverse effects on health.

but silver has been used and is being used to treat a wide range of medical conditions.

the fact is that silver is producing results where big pharma failed.

and as far as cancer is concerned if you dont allow cancer
a environment of grow in , it cant grow.

silver kills all virus / microbes !

and can be charged either positive or negative when needed to kill certain microbes.

silver is used to repair the mistakes of hospitals when
staff infections occur in hospitals.

silver is used to treat burn victims.
aids , tuberculosis , cancer , etc...

poking fun at people who use a proven method of treating their patients vs a proven method of slowly killing their patients might be fun or even funny to some or most.

for a hospital and a set of doctors to deny a paitent the ability to recieve treatment using proven methods because those methods are not standard practice is not fun or funny or even humane . to me it is murder.

if you have ever watched someone in a so called hospital slowly die because the errors that the hospital makes in its standard practices and the tricks they use to put that person on life support so that the hospital can make more money
then you wouldnt find any humor in people or the few brave doctors who have chosen to heal their patients vs allowing a so called hospital to murder their patients.

I say murder because that is what it is.

its not malpractice.

its murder.

In that case you better get rid of any silver jewelry. We need a whole bunch of viruses and microbes to keep us alive and healthy. Anything that indiscriminately kills microbes must be used with caution, so that it doesn't damage our personal ecosystems.

Bill Gill

dont worry about us Bill , we already have that covered.

pro-biotics replace the murdered good microbes but not the
murdering bad microbes.

billions of them in a single pill.

or you can just eat yogurt !

wearing silver jewerly is a good thing Bill , you have heard the saying
" born with a silver spoon in their mouth "
this comes from the antibiotic effects of silver , the rich who used silver eating utensils were less affected by plagues and silver spoons were placed / kept in the mouths of rich peoples babies.

Do you have a reliable source for that? I had always understood/assumed that it had to do with the fact that rich peoples children were fed with a silver spoon just because they were rich. I was not aware that rich people were particularly exempt from plagues. Of course they might have been better able to keep from getting plagues because they could afford to be cleaner, and could keep from associating with the poor people who lived in more crowded and unsanitary conditions.

Bill Gill

http://www.medicinebeeherbals.com/article-colloidal-silver.php

you might not think that the above is a credible source

but the credible sources you think are credible are not credible to me.

---------------------- MY REASONING ----------------------

because the FDA prevents any such credibility!
therefore in my opinion there are no credible sources for any medicine or medical procedure.

if the FDA has to force the witholding of information from
the public concerning colodial silver then any information that
is allowed by the FDA concerning any other medication
to be displayed to the public is tainted and worthless.

----------------------------------------------------------------

so , its a matter of what works isnt it.

slow death or recovery.

also you wont find any so called credible sources anymore
when it comes to colodial silver because the FDA has made it illegal to claim that it will cure any illness.

your tax dollars at work.

Silver spoons were used by the wealthy because they are pretty and the wealthy had minions who could keep them clean-- and also because there was a tradition that silver cutlery (in effect spoons as forks were not yet popular), turned black in the presence of poison.

Since silver has a propensity to turn black at the drop of a hat let alone poison is not news to anyone who has had to polish silver, so probably poison may have inadvertently been detected. However the silver tarnishes if a silver spoon is used to eat a boiled egg!

As for the 'silver spoon in the mouth' I think Bill explained that.

In plagues everyone was felled, but the wealthy used to escape to their country houses when the plague season happened, possibly taking their spoons with them, but I don't think there s evidence that they thought that the cutlery would protect them from the illness.

[Quote=Mike Kremer]

People escaped the plague in London , either because they had natural immunity, or because they changed their water supply (drinking well).
There is a village well, in the middle of Hampstead Heath London(still there today)...called "The Vale of Health" Nobody caught the Plague drinking from its waters.

Colloidal Silver as Paul states ...kills all kinds of microbes and germs.
Go to your Pharmacy and you can buy Colloidal silver Elastoplasters, or fine silver woven bandages.

They are as good as leeches for killing Staph: eruptions and other infection germs on wounds.

No time right now ...but I believe you can make your own Colloidal Silver somewhere on the WWW.

No ! I explained that.

people used silver because of its health benefits.

it would be pretty stupid to use silver only because its
shiny after you polish it.

and think of the toxic polish itself and the work required to
keep silver sparkly and shiny.

and there was always gold that required no polishing.

if the rich wanted to show off their fortunes then gold
spoons would have been the better choice.

they used silver spoons because of the antibacterial benefits that gold does not have.

people have even used copper for its health benefits.
copper has antibacterial benefits like silver does.
why do you think they dont use copper pipes in houses anymore
they did away with copper pipes and replaced copper with less healthy plastic pipe.



it is also stupid to use copper just because it is shiny after you polish it.

people use copper utensils because of its antibacterial benefits.

I suppose that nasa and the ussr use silver water pipes in their space vehicles so they can polish them all the time and have something to do while they are up there , and to have nice sparkly shiny water pipes to look at.

copper is a antibacterial touch material , water held in copper vessels ( water pipes ) does not gather slime like it does in plastic pipes.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper

Thanks Paul.
I did not realise that Copper had anti-bacterial properties.
Do you know if they are as good as Copper?

And it would be pretty stupid to wear designer clothing just because it is fancy.

The art of "if you've got it, flaunt it" didn't start recently, it has been around forever.

Bill Gill

There is possibly a huge drawback of too much copper in the body

=> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alzheimer%E2%80%99s_disease

"Elevated free copper levels exist in Alzheimer’s disease.[1] Copper and Zinc are known to bind to amyloid beta proteins in Alzheimer's disease.[17] This bound form is thought to mediate the production of reactive oxygen species in the brain.[18]"


So whilst you may be having improved anti-bacterial effects you may not be able to remember anything :=)


I always love the argument from the alternative health crackpots that it's an old remedy that did them no harm ... they seem to forget the average life expectancy has gone up from under 40 in 1850 to over 70 now so they would not have lived long enough for us to know :-)

apples and oranges there Bill.

were not ( currently ) discussing clothing , were discussing the benefits of using antibacterial spoons and such.

not sure why you chose clothing as a vector either.

as silver?

I wouldnt experiment with any type of coloidial copper
if thats what you mean.

unless you have the proper equipment and knowledge to do so.

copper will form a greenish blue tarnish like silvers black
colored tarnish over time as you know because of oxidation.

the copper pipes are beginning to make a comeback in new homes because of the antibacterial health benefits and the availability of lead free solder used to join the pipes.

still even in a new home the water distribution pipes leading to the new home will have gobs of free bacteria to drink unless you have a home distillery to cleanse the free bacteria from the water supply.

If you run the water long enough in a copper pipe system then the copper may not completely cleanse the slime.

so it would be cheaper to use a small home distillery for your drinking water that removes the slime.

but you would still be bathing in the slime and washing your
clothes in the slime.

I imagine that in the UK you guys have some really old water pipes in use , so some of them might be the old leaded water pipes , you might want to check.

I have seen actual lead pipes that formed a 3-4 ft connection between two service pipes in the 70's.

then it was burried!

I wonder if its still in use.

It was used because of movement issues of the ground to maintain a connection.

What I was trying to point out is that if you don't have any good documentation from the time to indicate that they really did use silver to protect themselves then there could be other explanations, such as conspicuous consumption. As I said above, "if you've got it, flaunt it" isn't a new concept. Designer clothing just came to mind as an example.

Bill Gill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

the above shows the richest nation in the world with a lower
population to land mass ratio with all the smartest people and money in the world and the highest technology to be number 38 from the top.

so I suppose your right , LOL.

look at the list , Japan at the top.

followed by Hong Kong.

it looks like the ( old remedies are spreading )

unless asia is not known for old remedies that date back thousands of years.

surely its not technology that has caused the increase in
life expectancy of the world or the U.S. would be at the top.

not at 38th place.

since your the one focusing on good documentation , prehaps you
can show some good documentation that shows that they didnt
use siver to protect themselves.

that should be an easy task for you as you must have read that somewhere in a ancient medical text or something according to your stance so dont withold the data , let us in on it.

I have showed some evidence , lets see your counter.

after all to a rich person the difference between silver
and gold was like the difference between a penny and a dollar back then.

so why did they choose to flaunt the penny vs the dollar.

surely they knew the value of gold , them being rich n all.

such a impressive spoon , it really shows off ones wealth.
and its always nice and shiny.

even after you eat with it.





I agree with myself , the gold spoon flaunts wealth much better.

I see that as usual you don't want to actually back up your statements with facts. I keep saying, you are the salesman, not me. The salesman is the one who needs to be able to show the facts.

As far as the price of gold and silver? As you say gold is much more expensive. So only the very rich could afford it in large enough quantities. The ones who were just rich had to make do with silver. Kind of like the difference between Calvin Klein and Haute Couture.

Bill Gill

I havent seen anything to show your reason for doubting what Im saying , your the doubter not me.

I have shown references you have shown nothing.

unless you think that just because you doubt it that makes me wrong along with all the people throughout history who have used silver for its medicinal values.

Bill , its not asking too much.

your so sure that silver was not used by wealthy people for
its medicinal values you must have some sort of documentation you can share with the readers.

heres a science page on silvers medicinal value that you can add to the list.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2005/0910-killing_germs.htm








http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080519133449.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100524101339.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080811091257.htm


I can only find web sites that you probably wouldnt think are good sources of documentation about the silver spoons being given to babies by the wealthy during plagues.

but , I havent given up yet , Bill.

they got the information from someplace , and I'll probably find it.

meanwhile , I will be patiently waiting for some sort of
information from you from a good source that counters my stance.

I came across this web page in which some comical doctor or
something has documented the worthlessness of silver and thought I would share it.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/hi-ho-silver/

he would make a good fellow Bill.

in his article he mentioned "Blue Blooded" referencing the wealthy and questioning the ingestion of silver thus causing the blue blood.

its very funny that silver is so toxic to humans , yet the medical industry seems to be using tons of silver for its medicinal value , even in the paint on hospital walls.

I am rolling on the floor laughing at the anti alternative medicine people as I write.

Just to make your day it IS NOT NATURAL silver its a manufactured NANO particle that doesn't occur anywhere in nature :-)

http://www.nanomagazine.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=938:researchers-develop-mrsa-killing-paint&catid=38:nano-news&Itemid=159

http://www.livestrong.com/article/492719...rsa-infections/

I am not really anti-alternative but I did get a huge laugh at your idea it was natural silver in the paint.

Bad news for you there are even more exotic nano technology being added to the next generation of paints.

Come on you have to admire technology ... well I do.

Paul, I have scanned back through my posts on this thread and while I think I have shown some skepticism about the use of silver for health reasons, in fact I have only really discussed the idea that "Born with a silver spoon in his mouth" referred to the rich people putting a silver spoon in a babies mouth to protect him/her from disease. You don't seem to get the idea that I am willing to be convinced if you can come up with something to support the idea. My researches have come up with nothing. I even went to the alt.fables.urban news group and so far nobody over there has come up with anything. The same for Scopes.com.

So you still need to come up with some good documentation or admit that possibly that idea is wrong.

Bill Gill

sorry orac , it is silver , they just use radiation to split the silver to form the nanoparticles.



and just to make your day orac , could they use something other than silver and split it with radiation and achieve the same results!

if you take the natural silver away from them , they could still split stuff but what good would it be.

if you split a silver particle in half its still silver even though its in halves and even if you use another name such as nano particles to describe the halves.

thanks orac that vector was amusing.

the way I see it is , everywhere I look I see "that idea" so why would I even think about it being wrong?

there is no evidence supporting your claim that it is wrong.

there is evidence supporting my claim of it being right.

so I lean towards the idea being right.

The phrase "born with a silver spoon in his mouth" appeared in print in English as early as 1719

the printed version was translated from spanish.

("muchas veces donde hay estacas no hay tocinos,")
literally:
("often where there are hooks [for hanging hams] there are no hams")

still looking.

the most interesting thing I have found is the term blue blooded.

silver intake can cause the skin to turn blue if too
much is ingested , it is only temporary but silver may
be the reason this saying came about also.

as only the wealthy ate with silver spoons and forks and knives and used silver plates and drank from silver glases
the beverage poured from silver pitchers . that could add up to quite a bit of silver in the body.

as soon as their skin was exposed to sunlight the chemical
reaction would begin to occur , this could be a reason why the wealthy also looked so sickly and pale skinned , because the wealthy may have avoided sunlight to prevent their skin from turning a shade of blue.

The quote is from God Bless You! Idioms for Those With the Cold and Flu Illness (page 2).

Now if you will please find something that actually supports your belief then I will happily agree that you are right.

Otherwise, that's about enough, I'm through with this discussion.

Bill Gill

heres something I found , not that you would consider it
good documentation.

http://www.sensationalcolor.com/color-me...lver-spoon.html



http://www.lifesilver.com/history.htm



http://www.quora.com/How-did-the-term-Blue-Blood-come-about



[img]http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-fa41a250775b5aad51e6782d55363fdf[/img]

its a picture not documentation but the blue tint is easily seen in the hands cheeks and temples.



have you found anything yet?

Does it matter about the health properties of Babys silver spoons.?
The rich tended to give babys a silver spoon as a keepsake. You can also give and buy Silver teething rings and spoons today.
There is no doubt that these "silver" spoon babys were more healthy.
Prehaps it was because the parents were richer, and employed Nannys?. Here is an article about Babys, and siver Spoons.

Quite easy to find Bill Gill, prehaps you didnt look hard enough?
http://motherpie.typepad.com/motherpie/2006/07/born_with_a_sil.html

Anyway be that as it may.....I trust you have all bought your packet of Elastoplaster Silver bandages, for use when you next cut yourselves.?
NOTE. You stick 'em on as soon as you get a cut (terrific for kids) Do NOT use them if your cut has developed into a yellow oozing Staph: pus. You are expecting far too much at that stage.
Silver bandaids work on the surface ...not inside wounds.
IF you apply your silver Bandaid straight after a cut... It will NEVER develop into a Staph pus breeding wound. Guaranteed.

http://www.elastoplast.co.uk/products/sensitive-antibacterial

Those above Silver bandaids are WOVEN with very very fine silver thread into the cotton!

BUT Colloidal Silver is completely different....You drink it!!

Its supposed to kill Pylori-Bacteria (that causes Stomach Ulcers) and other nasty Germs.
Well dont laugh I did say suppose-to.
Those of you that know about medical History will know that the only substance that could kill the virulent sex disease of Syphilis in the 1850's was Mercury, with added Silver
....in all the forms and concoctions the Doctors could think of. So there you are

It seems very easy to make your own Silver colloidal solution.
Using clean glass bottle (not plastic), and 99.9% pure silver wire, and about 12v-18volts of DC current. Distilled water (if you are going to drink the Silver Colloid)
You can use tap water but ONLY for EXTERNAL use.

Since tap water has lead, copper,chalk phosphates and other items. All Ok to drink in the minute quantities the water Board supplies.....But no good when you Electro-lyse the tapwater.

http://www.atlasnova.com/CSMakingInfo.htmwater.

http://www.cancertutor.com/Cancer02/CSilver.html

Oh just as an afterthought. And its not a joke.

The British Army issue underpants woven with fine silver to its SAS personnel, who are about to go undercover on a long secret mission/operation.
....and may get no opportunity to wash.

In the last quote it says they used a lot of silver, and it may have helped them. And it does mention that they may have had a blue tint to their skin from the silver. It says nothing about their deliberately selecting silver for its medicinal qualities. And it certainly doesn't say anything about "Born with a silver spoon in his mouth".


Bill Gill

I agree with Mike , the article / web page he posted clearly
states why silver was chosen , because of its antibiotic capabilities.

there are plenty of sayings that were never documented , they were just said for a purpose , for instance the old saying

Practice what you preach

meaning if you expect someone to follow certain guidlines you should put those guidlines into practice for yourself also and not just demand that other people follow your guidlines.

I have wanted to make one of these for some time now but am
still concerned about the contaminates I might get from various sources.

I usually buy my colodial silver from a health food store who carries the best brands , I have used it on a abscess tooth before , several times as a matter of fact.

after trying the prescribed antibiotics for several weeks
with no results , in fact the swelling was getting worst I
decided to hold some of the colodial silver next to the
abscess to give that a try , I held it next to the abscess
for about 10 minutes , then spit it out.

in the middle of the night I got a big surprise when I woke up.
the abscess pops , the puss drains into the mouth and there
is a really really bad taste in the mouth.

and a hole in the gum that you can feel with the tongue.
it was slightly scary because the hole felt large.

I quickly rinsed my mouth with warm water and then swish
more of the colodial silver in my mouth again and spit it out.

the next morning all pain and swelling is gone and the hole was much smaller.

now when I get a tooth pain I dont bother taking the antibiotics I just use the colodial silver because it
works , and that is important to me.

that is but one experience I have had.

my dog scratched me with his claws on my arm , soon afterwards
I noticed my arm feeling warm and it was starting to hurt
not just where the scratch was but my entire arm was starting to hurt.

I sprayed some colodial silver on the scratch and drank about a teaspoon
of the colodial silver and in a few hours the pain was gone.

I havent had a good cold or flu in 8-9 years or so except for
a year or so ago when I allowed a cold to develop on purpose
so that I could allow my system to beat the strain itself.

its a great product and definitely worth the money.

I dont take it on a daily basis , only when I feel as if
something is wrong.

and then theres caprylic acid and echinacea & goldenseal root.

if I get a stomach virus I take 1 caprylic acid and its gone within minutes.

I put 1/2 cup of water and 1 caprylic acid in the blender
and blend them together , then I swish the mixture around
in my mouth and swallow it , I dont rush taking the entire amount
all at once , it taste kind of like chalky coconuts.

the echinacea & goldenseal root I take afterwards to build my imune system back up.

usually only 2 are needed.

This is a bit like you argument over "silver spoon" with Bill ;-)

Your information is a nice story you believe but it stops there with you ... here try wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_nanoparticles)

You may want to read the part about health concerns which are quite different to natural silver



Silver loaded anti-bacterial paint is produced by the wet process to because they want the collide base on the nano-particles to bind into the paint.

As nano-technology has become a bad word to people like you they are investigating "green" more natural ways to do it but no commercialisation has been achieved.

Examples of attempts to green up the process:
http://www.ipcbee.com/vol5/74-X10024.pdf
http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/engineering/issues/muh-10-34-4/muh-34-4-7-1005-30.pdf
http://www.chalcogen.infim.ro/369_Ankanna.pdf


So if you want to fool yourself that silver nano-particles are somehow natural knock yourself out.

you still didnt say anything about natural silver being used to make the nano silver particles now did you.

its ok though orac , the article says that.

you just seem to think that there is no natural silver involved in the making of nano silver particles.

Im not concerned with nano silver particles myself , I think its just an attempt to commercialize the benefits of silver.

in other words , silver has been found to beat antibacterial prescription drugs handsdown so big business is trying to pick up on it in a way that will exclude the natural silver that they must use to make the nano silver particles.

they probably are aware of their constant denial of the medicinal value of silver and they are trying to find ways to hide or cover up their mistakes about silvers medicinal
values just like any good stupid smart person does on a daily basis.

but they need natural silver to begin with , just like the
evolutionist crackpots need created organisms to begin with.



I never said they were , I said they were made from natural silver.

heres what I said



apples dont grow on trees already cut in half either.

so if I split an apple in half , the split apple is not like anything found in nature either.

it takes a natural apple to start with to end up with apple nano particles.

therefore

it takes natural silver to start with to end up with silver nano particles.

if todays medicine manufacturers ever come up with a medicine that does not cause further health hazzards or death due to its usage then I will be amazed.

so I cant find you point in the below information.



why would the medical industry want to change from being a
illness control industry to a illness healing industry when actual healing without the damaging of other vital organs would decrease the medical industries future income levels.

you have to think growth.



I cant see why you would say such a thing , Im not anti
nano tech , I think it is great that they are re-investigating the medical value of silver.

Oh there is natural silver used in the production in the same way the genes used in GM food are natural. Splicing jellyfish genes into cereal to make them therefore cold resistant is completely natural as well.




You are correct only they found and identified what it was in silver that gave it anti-bacterial properties and then we ramp it up and put it on steriods.




I don't think they care for any of this rubbish they are there to grab market share making the most effective product for the lowest cost they can TO MAKE THE BIGGEST PROFIT THEY CAN.




Never seen any evolutionary theory that starts with any organisms at all they all start with a chemical soup. You would have to link me what group of evolutionists you are talking about.




By the same logic then GM food is natural and safe.




Thats fine then so lets take the logic out 1 step ... do you also view GM food as simply re-investigating the useful properties of natural genes?

I am also going to stretch you paul are these natural or un-natural and why?

http://phys.org/news/2012-08-stars-hexagons-dna-code-gold.html


Incase you havent worked it out what I find interesting among those who consider themself "alternative" or "natural" is the weird distinction and definitions they seem to use on "natural".

Orac

I didnt see your reply until just now , I will read it later
and reply to it.

I have a few documentaries to watch first , but I will get back
to you on your reply.

No worries I am interested to see your answers as I take you on this little journey into science.

I do want you to understand I am in no way trying to pick on you or your views it just shows you the implications of your views in the very complex world of science. Our world is never black and white and sometimes random decisions have interesting fallout.

You never did ask me about my views you have sort of assumed lots of things from your response.

For the record in my opinion silver nano-particles in there current form are dangerous and should not be allowed.

Why: Simply because there is no biodegrability requirements put on the current generation of nano particles so those particles will remain active for a very very long time.

Controlled biodegrability has been investigated and is possible (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19441464) but because this will add cost you can be almost certain that for the at the moment silver nanopartilces that are being produced are not readily biodegrabable.

As of March 23rd there is now also another big problem with the silver nano-particles which we will get too on our little journey.

how long is a very very long time?

is there a possibility that the amounts of nano silver particles
could remain in the body providing the benefits of silver for a very very long time?

are they concerned that people will never get ill because
of the nano silver staying in their bodies and that is what the opposition is focusing on while using the inability to biodegrade as a reason to not use the nano silver?

just curious.



its just 1 o

to

too : too many
to: going to



interested in seeing

not picking , just trying to help.



oh boy , journey..

any way you want it...

thats the way you need it...

any way you want it...

Oh you will have the wonderous anti-bacteria effects of the nano-silver for your entire life (the half life of biodegradability is well beyond your life expactancy). Down side is you will be long dead from toxicity.

Here is a starter background for you

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118686/


Note that in the medical industry the recommendations

"The biocompatible coatings improve the performance of these nanoparticles, reduce their toxicity, and do not result in negative effects on cells. The emphasis of this study is to use biodegradable and biocompatible nanobiomaterials."

The problem is there is no such pressure put on general industry.

This whole thing is a landmine for every side and view. Infact as I will show you even biodegrability will not solve some issues and I have had to rethink my position as of march.

So to lead you into the maze you need to start by providing views and lets seee if you can navigate thru the problems science is throwing up.

So how do you view GM food and how do you view the above gold nanoparticles.

GM Foods:

they are not safe in my opinion.
they will cause mass starvation.

check the news today concerning corn.

any GM product should be stringently tested for decades before
its allowed to interact with our environment.

and the testing should be done by concerned individuals
not the industry.

concerned volunteers whos financial records are monitored.

gold nano particles:

its dinner time and my chicken thighs on the george forman grill are done , I still need to cook the okra and tomatoes
and rice , and the tea pitcher is almost empty so I also have
to make some tea.

Im thinking that natural gold does not dissolve in nature unless it is exposed to an acidic environment.

such as swamps.
also certain bacteria will grow gold ! sort of.

let me get back to you on this , ok.

heres an interesting bit on bacteria that disolve gold

http://news.discovery.com/earth/gold-bacteria-nuggets.html



so thats what that stuff is that cloggs up my well.

I never have figured out a way to keep that gold looking
junk out of my garden.

its not just gold though its copper also and some silvery mess
that accumulates on the surface of any container that I put the well water in.

it forms a shiny metalic surface.

when I dip a leaf into it the slime sticks to the leaf.
I let it dry and some of the gold just dissapears depending
on how long it dries.

I burn the leaf and it leaves a tiny ball of gold.
I guess its gold.

this never happened before, I did something that I believe
caused this to happen.

note:
just in case others have observed this slime in their well water , its toxic if its gold.



just thought I would throw that in...

but thats not on topic so , lets continue.

the ingredient in tea leaves is what cures the prostate cancer
so couldnt bacteria be used to disolve the natural gold into nanoparticles vs the expensive nuclear process?

would this work?

or is this too natural for science.

So this response begs the question GM needs to be tested for decades to determine if it's safe yet silver nanoparticles we should be swilling tomorrow. Isn't that inconsistant logic?

Concerned individuals whose financials are monitored? What about donations to organizations, placement in wils, sexual favours etc there are many ways to "pay" for things. Con men and witchdoctors will always find ways to go around such monitoring.




I am not sure why you think science is against nature ... I find that comment a bit weird.

Your suggestion above is sort of what science does look at natural compounds that have an effect and try and work out what the active ingredient is and how to purify it, deliver it better and improve the results. It is a good thought and would be worth investigating.

Aprin which you wrote a large discussion on is a typical example. Salicylic acid the main active ingredient of asprin comes from the word salix in latin which means willow tree. The origin of the name is because the compound was first discovered from a herbal rememeby made from the bark of the willow tree from pre-BC times.

silvers not toxic.
unless you take too much of it.
but if you take too much of anything its harmful.
this is exactly why the FDA needs to determine safe levels through another study.

plus theres a big difference and the
two ( silver and GM ) should not be used as a comparison.

silver might be found to be harmful to (a) human.

but GM foods could harm (all) humans.



but we wouldnt be trying to get politicians to do the studies either , so I almost feel safe using concerned citizens for that purpose , as it stands big pharma tells the FDA what to do , not the other way around.

they test their own products under their own rules.



Im just saying that when natural remedies are being used to
treat an illness , science tends to make the natural remedy look as if it is quackery.

probably because doctors havent been educated in the use
of natural remedies , they are only taught to use prescription drugs for illnesses.



I thought so myself , it would be more along the lines of
micro biology rather than nuclear medicine but it is the
final product that would count , not the method of producing the product.


but wouldnt the bioaccumulation of gold still be a factor?

but there are products in use today that can rid the body of
the gold particles , such as penicillamine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillamine

and Dimercaprol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimercaprol

Thats all well and fine UNTIL YOU ARE THE ONE PERSON.

So it's about time I come clean

Humans:
http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/34/3/559.abstract
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120314100416.htm
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.4816.pdf

Mice:
http://actanaturae.ru/article.aspx?id=168

Rats:
http://www.academicjournals.org/ajmr/PDF/Pdf2012/19July/Sardari%20et%20al.pdf

Aquatic life:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn204671v
http://www1.cnsi.ucla.edu/news/item?item_id=2063451

The enviroment:
http://advancinggreenchemistry.org/?p=2730
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080429135502.htm



QUESTIONS:

1.) Still want to be the first to start swilling the stuff down?

2.) Under you concerned people proposal science and FDA are sidelined now because we are so evil ... so who is responsible for finding these things out and telling people?




OR it could be that many of the so called remedies have absolutely no proof they do anything.

I have no problem with natural remedies so long as they are not wives tales and witchdoctor reviews. So what the natural remedies people should be doing is organize rigorous testing.

You complain about the big pharma companies but they do alot of testing on there drugs and when they stuff up there testing and people die they face lawsuits.

If your concerned people stuff up like they may in the above case of nano-particle silver and I get testicular cancer WHO DOES MY FAMILY SEEK COMPENSATION FROM ?




And again I have no problem with any of that BUT it all neeeds testing before we start telling people it is safe to do this sort of stuff.


SO QUESTION:
Who does all that testing and how do they pay for it?

your first link concerns acrylics in the workplace.

http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/34/3/559.abstract

which is a very important matter , not just because of the
workers but because of the ventilation that exhaust the polyacrylics into the atmosphere that others outside the factory can breath in.

proper safety measures are not being followed in asia as the factories must cut the cost of manufacturing due to demands
by their share holders / customers.

globalization does not care about people it only cares about money.

this link was important but not in context with our discussion.

your second link

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120314100416.htm

possible consequences for fertility!

that would be a good trade off , if your other options are
what is currently available as treatments of many illnesses.

and knowing that the survival rate is around 1 in 20 or something like that given that you exclude the first 5 years
after treatment.

your third link
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.4816.pdf

this is the type of study that is needed.
and many studies are needed.

with graphs that show particle size and absorption
amounts, a quick reference , something to use as a tool.

standards if / when possible.

I agree with you that these types of studies would be expensive , but who would benefit from these studies?



Insurance companies !!!

insurance is mandatory , 1 or 2 prevented lawsuits would
pay for several studies and a research facility.


I havent read the other links yet , its oatmeal time.
the coffee was really good and the reading was interesting
my keyboard is not cooperating with me this morning so
I need the extra strength to bang on the keys to ensure that each character is placed in its correct position.



well , as it stands we only have testimonials from users of
the remedies , so how do you get proof?

clinical studies !

who performs clinical studies?

the people who are constantly claiming that there is no proof!

Wow! some good conspiracy stuff here.

Having done their clinical studies, if they still say there is no proof, is that because there is no proof; or because they didn't want to find any?

Then again, could it be that they did thier tests on the wrong animals. If antibiotics had originally been tested on guinea pigs they wouldn't have passed the first hurdle.

so all the clinical test that they have done are worthless then?

it would be nice if the testing were carried out in a(n) honest fashion.

but , when someones / some companies reputation is on the line they usually do things in a(n) honest fashion, dont they.

if you dont think that they could be trusted to carry out
honest testing then why should we trust what they have already tested.

you almost make it sound like they would intentionally do testing that would deliver false results.

do you think they would?

Well, there are a lot of times when the companies that are being watched over by the FDA still present medicines that are not adequately tested, but they present evidence that they have been. If companies that are being watched still do that sort of thing I don't think I would trust any body who was doing their own unsupervised testing. After all that is why we have an FDA, to try to keep people from selling snake oil with the claims that it is good for you. Before the FDA there were thousands of companies selling health products that were ineffective, if not down right harmful. Some people who are selling alternative medicines are still doing it. Notice that I said some. I'm sure that some alternative medicine vendors are doing an honest job of trying to help people. The ones that aren't are the ones that worry me. And they are why I don't have a lot of faith in alternative medicine. I have no way of sorting the good from the bad.

Bill Gill

I have the same reservations as Bill nothing would change infact it would get a whole lot worse and then you have the following




Do you really think that is ever going to get off the ground?

Many would view it as a new tax and many would say there are alot of people who couldn't afford to pay it etc.

Seriously do you think any government or public are going to allow or vote for this to happen?

why would anyone view it as a tax at all?

if insurance companies pay to do the studies / testing
and cures are found or alternate medicine is found to
replace several high dollar treatments and medicines then wouldnt the insurance companies profit from that lower cost?

big pharma is constantly being sued because people are always dying or become severely ill due to taking their barely tested new medicines.

if they are not barely tested then why do people die or get severely ill?

and cost is becomming a real problem , so much that people cant afford insurance.

I dont see why the insurance industry could not fund the testing without any one voting.

thorough testing would mean safer medicines , and would prevent lawsuits , and would lower insurance cost to doctors , hospitals , companies , people , etc...

life insurance companies could collect premiums longer before they have to pay the life insurance benefits.

100,000 people a year die in the U.S due to prescription drugs.

http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100...panies_get_rich

98,000 people die a year in the U.S. due to bad medical practices.

http://www.sagamoreinstitute.org/ao/index/article/id/3004


medical bills are very high because the insurance is very high and that cost is simply passed on to the patient.

the reason the insurance keeps going up is because medicine keeps getting worse.

someone who makes a medical product for a dollar has to sell that product for a thousand dollars or more just because of the insurance he must carry to cover any damages his product might cause.

Umm because you are paying for something you may never use or need. Besides taxes on various things, name any other situation in which that is true?




So why wouldn't the insurance companies choose little or no testing?

I mean lots of people dying, lots of people claiming. Your premiums are set on likelyhoods the insurance companies simply make profit on turnover.

You need to remember insurance companies are just as greedy and problematic as pharma I am not sure giving them this role is a great idea :-)




I am not convinced it would be any less under your idea infact I would say it's going to be a hell of a lot more deaths.




Becuase someone stuffed up but thats the point they are held accountable.

You criticise the FDA for not telling drug companies what to do but if they did so they would be legally responsible. It is supposed to be that drug companies foillow any scientific leads on possible problems with drugs ... that is ther moral obligation imposed on them.

If the FDA setout testing then you can guarantee that drug companies would only do the prescribed testing which is the weakness of your idea. If people died because of something that the FDA didn't set as a test for the drug companies who does a person sue the FDA?

The FDA v Pharma interaction works the way it does because all the responsibility is put squarely on the drug companies.




I don't see it getting any cheaper under your idea infact I would argue the current system is very close to your idea

FDA = your concerned peoples group
AMA/Doctors board = you control group or board
Medical Indemity Insurance = Your insurance


I don't see you suggest anything radically different to what already exists and alright it may not work that well according to you.

TWO QUESTION FOR YOU:

1.) Why are so few alternative doctors and remedies meeting the current drug/doctor schema.

2.) If we created your version of the drug schema people and companies not complying can't practice or supply drugs I assume.

your argument boils down to the FDA is a invalid agency.



so we should save the tax payers the money they are wasting on funding the FDA.

why not , they have proven that they are an invalid agency by
requiring supplements and vitamins to have a warning label
when the death rate from taking vitamins and supplements is

ZERO

so we cant trust the FDA , the death rate shows that.
we cant trust the drug companies , the death rate shows that.
and if we cant trust the insurance companies then
do we just throw our hands up and surrender to them.

or do we strive for better testing of drugs by some better
process or method.

It is as valid as your "concerned citizens group" what exactly thier role is somewhat interesting.

No you couldn't remove the FDA no more than you could remove your "concerned citizens group" but you can always argue and look at the role and function they are playing.

I am not a fan of the FDA I think they could do there role alot different and better but that doesn't mean I think they are obselete.

You still avoided answering why you think so few alternative remedies are making it under the FDA and why you think so many more would make it under your scheme.

why?

what purpose do they serve?

are they only in place to warn people away from the dangers
of alternative medicine?

while they allow the murder of people by big pharma and
approve the murdering drugs.

100,000 people a year , murdered by big pharma.

its nothing less than murder because with proper testing those lives could have been saved.

its big money , and the faster they can deliver their money makers to the medical industry the quicker they can make the billions each year.

they probably think so what if some percentage of people die because of the barely tested medicines , the profit from the other percentage of people who dont die will pay the lawsuits.




taxes

Safeguard and check role the same role you assigned your "concerned citizen group" or are you backing away from that now so we have anyone and anything goes with alternate medicine.




They are there to protect ANY medicine be it from traditional or alternative.

Show me any evidence that they are being selective please?




Your scheme would probably (as you call it) murder more consider how many cases of testicular cancer alone you could have been facing.

Whatever scheme you set up will "murder people" because it is inevitable administering ANYTHING.

There are countless recordings of water toxicity which is consuming too much water too fast so the body does not get a chance to balance the electrolytes.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-511475/Man-35-drank-death-consuming-water.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1770067/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/


So even recommending people drink water can be fatal.




And do you think that the con men etc are going to leave the alternative market alone when it is worth billions of dollars and you make it even easier.

Come on Paul you aren't that naive.





And as I said your scheme the exact same mechanics will be at play and the same outcomes you haven't changed the drivers or the system.

Alternative medicine under your idea would look EXACTLY the same as it does currently only the players dresses change.




Show me evidence of these taxes please?

I think you will find it is the cost of the testing that has stopped alternative remedies and again that will be no different under you scheme unless you are going to reduce standards and murder more people.

it looks like the safeguard part of the role has failed.

100,000 people every year ! murdered by the big pharma safeguard.

its more like planned murder.

100,000 people every year should have given the industry enough data to use to prevent these murders.

its a systemic operation that does NOT safeguard these medicines , it allows the murder of 100,000 people every year.

when people begin to charge the industry with murder , having the person in charge arrested for murder , then those in charge might do a little more testing and we might get safe medicines.

this is what would happen if another company were to be murdering 100,000 people every year , they would be arrested and put in prison.

so do away with the worthless FDA and start over , because the FDA is only there to legalize the murder.

its still murder.

theres no such thing as legalized murder.

WOW , orac its not the water that is fatal, it is the dose.



you havent even been paying attention have you?

I never said to leave it alone , Im saying to test it.

test the home remedies , if they are found to be dangerous
then take em off the shelf.

currently there is no such testing by anyone.

if you ask me your the one who is naive ,because you seem to
think that every thing is just fine.

you even defend the murders.

why is that?

Ok, just a few notes about the FDA, well sort of. The FDA (or its predecessor) actually started regulating food and drugs in 1906. That was when Congress passed the first comprehensive food and drug safety legislation. So I jumped back in time to 1902. Specifically I dug out my reproduction of a 1902 Sears Roebuck catalog and checked the medical pages. They start out with an explanation that their pharmacist has carefully studied and tested the medicines that they are selling. Here are a few of them.

Dr. Worden's Female Pills for all female diseases.

Dr. Hammond's Nerve and Brain Pills, Guaranteed the highest grade on the market. A boon for weak men.

Dr. Rose's French Arsenic Complexion Wafers.

Castroline - You need not have any other medicine in your house for your children.

Vin Vitae A new and perfect tonic and stimulant for the tired, weak and sick of all classes. A renewer of energy, a stimulant for the fatigues, a strengthener for the weak, an effective an agreeable food for the blood, brain and nerves.

White Ribbon Secret Liquor Cure - Makes them stop drinking forever.

I didn't copy out the exaggerated claims for most of them that say they will cure almost anything. It doesn't say what is in any of them. I suspect that the Vin Vitae is highly alcoholic, most tonics from the time were.

The Castroline for your children may have contained opium or laudanum.

I just think maybe the FDA does do some good for us.

Bill Gill

See answering questions got you into trouble hey so now we are back to stupid statements and taunting ... funny socratus does the same rubbish.

The answer for you paul is pharma may indeed murder 100 000 people but your sugegstion would murder more.

Until you can come up with a suggestion that would murder less you look pretty silly suggesting people go for it.

I have no problem with alternative medicines and if they worked and they murdered less people I would support them.

THE FACT IS THEY DON'T AND SO YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT DIES.

If you have an argument make it if you want to resort back to stupid taunting garbage our discussion is done.

then you should look in the mirror at socratus , because I
havent taunted you.

you have taunted me however , it is funny isnt it?

I have not really been following this thread, nor have I read the article linked below. I post it only in case it might be of some interest/relevance, and possibly create a diversion from sniping.

http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/120807/srep00563/full/srep00563.html?WT.ec_id=SREP-20120814