UK Opens its UFO Files

Posted by: Mike Kremer

UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/14/08 06:39 PM

I am sure all the UFO buffs have been waiting for this.
The UK Ministry of Defence finally opens its secret UFO files, all-be-it 14 months late, but I did say I would keep all informed when this info was stated back in March '07

A quick look, by the BBC here-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7398108.stm

But here are the actual National Archives, finally released yesterday....all actual photos, drawings, people, interviews etc all collected in one place below-

http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Remember, this info has been collected and filed by the British Goverment. Dos that mean you accept it as true?.......well you never know, visual sightings are still occuring.
Posted by: Rallem

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/14/08 09:07 PM

I'll be sure to check this out when I get home. Thanks for the update.
Posted by: Kate

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/15/08 03:55 AM

I had a quick look. Not sure there's much that's new in it. A bit more about the RAF Base "landing" but nothing that significant.
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/17/08 07:33 AM

I once had a conversation with someone who claimed to have seen the proverbial little green men. They allegedly came from Mars. He was determined to return the visit, and intended to build his own space ship to do so. When asked how he would make it, he said he would use wood. When I pointed out that it would burn up, he replied that he would cover it in cooking foil. And he was in earnest. Draw your own conclusions on that one.

That's sad. More humorous is this from a British Government briefing to the House of Lords:

"Let me assure this House that Her Majesty's government has never been approached by people from outer space"

But on a more serious note -

There's an interesting forum thread elsewhere in which TheFallibleFiend includes this question:

"Do we have to see something to accept it with reasonable certainty as a fact - at least tentatively?"

The consensus so far is that in general we find ourselves tentatively accepting most trivial information as fact, although we all know of instances in which the answer is 'yes'. The case of UFOs is not in that 'general' category, and neither is it firmly in the 'yes' category. It raises the point that identifying what we see is not always straightforward (as any lawyer would agree). UFOs are often thought to be alien spacecraft, but an individual's assessment of the probabilities is largely dependent upon their level of knowledge in related fields. It's not surprising, then, to read comments such as this:

"I think that it is much more likely that the reports of flying saucers are the result of the known irrational characteristics of terrestrial intelligence rather than the unknown rational efforts of extraterrestrial intelligence." - Dr. Richard Feynman.
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/23/08 05:00 AM

Hello all,

Let me say to begin with, I believe there are extraterrestrials.
And, I believe we are being visited. I have seen things in the night sky that looked odd, and many I have explained. However, I can think of two incidents that what I saw was extraordinary and I can furnish no rational explanation.

In saying that I would also say this. Many of the sightings that are seen of a triangular shaped craft that seems to float quietly is probably a product of skunk works in area 51. It is called TR3B-type it in your browser and you can read about it.

It supposedly has a circular plasma filled accelerator ring called the Magnetic Field Disrupter which is mercury based and pressurized at 250,000 atmospheres at a temp of 150 degrees K, and accelerated to 50,000 rpm to create a super conductive plasma with the resulting gravity disruption. It disrupts or neutralizes the effects of gravity on mass within the proximity by 89%. this includes the occupants. It has 3 multimode thrusters mounted at each bottom corner of the triangular platform. It travels sub mach 9 at altitudes below 120,000 feet and above that -- as the article says -who knows.

I will not bore you with all the other details you can read it yourself if your interested, but I am saying this is what a lot of folks are seeing.

Where the technology came from - E.T. maybe or PHd

You decide.

odin1

Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/23/08 10:04 AM

TR3B? Magnetic Field Disruptor? Great stuff! Excellent sci-fi.

I've decided that Jean-Luc Picard and crew dropped by from the future to bestow this technology upon the United States, specifically, since the rest of the world would be too sceptical to listen smile

Actually, though, that's nothing. We had the TR3B in England way back in '62. It was well ahead of it's time, as sports cars go grin
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/23/08 12:34 PM

Come on redewenur,

You know the English model did not have the "beam me up scotty" option. Besides, Picard would never agree to English technology, Renault magnetic field disruptors would have been much more sensible to him.

odin1
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/23/08 12:55 PM

How would you like a well placed photon torpedo? cool
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/23/08 02:28 PM

I will initialize my cloaking device and you will be helpless.
Then I Odin, will call up my valkaries to finish up the task.

odin1
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/23/08 05:56 PM

I base my belief on ET's by the numbers. It is really hard for me to believe as big as our galaxy is that we are the only intelligent life. There are things that are seen in the sky that are unexplainable, I have seen myself and close up not 5 miles in the sky.

Some of what we see is no doubt new technology as mentions in the post I made previously. It makes sense to me that a class 0 civilization would be visited by a class 2 or 3 to observe. We would if we found a civilization on Mars and had the technology to go and come as we please. Why do you think we are there now?

I want to ask a question. Why do you think the governments of this earth would want to keep contact or proof of existance of EBE's from the public?

odin1
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/24/08 10:22 AM

Odin1: "I base my belief on ET's by the numbers. It is really hard for me to believe as big as our galaxy is that we are the only intelligent life."

Some data:-

Number of stars in the Milky Way: maybe 400,000,000,000
Number of stars within 100 light-years: < 15,000
Number of stars within 16 light-years: 63

Looking at the numbers, it's not difficult (for me, at least) to imagine that there are other technological civilisations (TC) out there.

It's less easy to imagine that there's a TC on one of the 15,000 stars within 100 lt yrs. Statistically, for a single one of those to host a TC would require 27,000,000 TC stars in throughout the galaxy.

Coming closer to Earth the odds grow dimmer. For a TC to be around one of the 63 stars within 16 lt yrs, there should be more than 6,000,000,000 other TC stars in the galaxy. OK, maybe there are, but the odds don't look so good.

There are sure to be other factors to take into account, but I expect you get the drift. First there are the statistical probabilities, then there's the science. If we are sticking with science, nothing can travel through space faster than light. Even just a few years makes it a long trip for a flying visit!

So, it seems to me that what's really being implied is that some kind of hyperspace travel is being employed. I suppose that would rule UFOs out totally in the view of most scientists. However, supposing that some TCs have found loopholes in the science (or wormholes in the galaxy smile ), then they could presumably arrive in no time at all from anywhere at all, like genies out of bottles.

Whatever, I don't think it's impossible that an alien spacecraft has been spotted - just improbable.

As for the conspiracy theories, they seem, invariably, to contain strong elements of idiocy, so I try not to waste time on them. But your own question is reasonable:

Odin1: "Why do you think the governments of this earth would want to keep contact or proof of existence of EBE's from the public?"

I don't. I mean, I don't take it as a foregone conclusion - some might, but then some might not. What do you think?


Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/24/08 01:32 PM

Hello redewenur,

It is a topic that interest me. Let's play 'what if" and assume that EBE's are known to exist and have been watched by the western worlds governments. And lets also suppose that artifacts have been spotted on the moon and Mars beyond a question of a doubt. Many people seem to think it would and is being suppessed. Do you think it would be religious reasons, or psycological reasons- or do you think the governments would fear they would lose control of the masses? And there is always the possiblity they would know something we don't concerning the nature of the visitors.

I think it would be mostly religious in nature. Although I believe most governments would rather be worshiped themselves (rather than the organized religion that has been around for centuries)they expect organized religion to maintain some order with the populus -- they would fear a total loss of control if ET would arrive and say something completely contrary to the beliefs of organized religions. Then all these different religions would further splinter in array against the establishment and other groups. Total anarchy I feel is what the western world governments would fear. How much could they suppress if ET came? Also, after billions of dollars are spent to keep the motherland safe and you find out ET can drop in any time he wants and could if so desired level a city at will and there is nothing the US, Uk, all of Europe and Russia can do about it. The conspiracy people would really give the goverment a fit then because they would blame everything that happened bad on ET, and the government because of a supposed deal made between themselves.

This is part of my opinion.
What say you?

odin1

Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/24/08 04:18 PM

Odin1: "Let's play 'what if' and assume that EBE's are known to exist and have been watched by the western world’s governments."

OK, I'll play, and provide a few ill-considered thoughts, but on the understanding that (disclaimer!) this is science fiction in which any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.

You stipulate that a discovery has been made, suppression of all related information is taking place, and your question is: Why is the suppression taking place?

There are surely plenty of variables to play with, but I suppose it broadly depends upon:

- the characteristics of the artefact in question
- the characteristics of the political powers of the time
- the characteristics of the society being governed
- the chances of being able to successfully maintain suppression of the information
- the perceived balance of cost v benefit regarding disclosure v suppression

To create a scenario, you simply play with the variables. The reality would very complex, and all I could come up with would be pure speculation based upon presumed information about the variables.

Actually, it would be possible to write a decent novel on the strength of such doodlings. Speaking of which, have you read Carl Sagan's novel 'Contact'? In case you haven't, it touches on the social and political impact of the first message from ET. Excellent, I thought.
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/24/08 05:51 PM

Hello redewenur,

Absolutely, this is just fictional-maybe I'm on the wrong thread,
but it does raise an interesting question. Your answer I feel is absolutely right, there would be some variance. I have seen the movie "contact" I have not read the book, and I am sure the book would go into much more detail with what we are discussing.
I may put it on my list to read.

I have an open mind, like you, I need proof. As you stated the numbers are there. I have looked recently on the internet at anomalies on the moon and Mars, and you know you really don't know what you are looking at on the internet now. I have programs on my PC that I can add, delete, change, distort anything in a photograph. You can too I am sure. But, in saying that I try to keep the door cracked just a little bit for the possibilty. You know redewenur, after working all week, trying to make ends meet, watching the news and seeing all the bad things going on now in the world, war, famine, recession, it seems like a mini vacation to get away and look at what if's every now and then.

Thanks rendewenur
odin1
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/24/08 07:47 PM

This thread is in the right pigeon hole, and it is, indeed, an interesting question.

The internet is a wierd and wonderful place isn't it! The best and the worst thing about this information highway is that it hosts the best and the worst of information! For every gem there seems to be a ton of garbage, and it's not always obvious which is which.

I know what you mean about mini-vacations. I'm having one of that kind right now, reading Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. Re-reading, I should say, as I read them twenty odd years ago, with the exception of two more volumes that have been published since. It was probably the thread about 'psychohistory' that triggered this!
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/24/08 11:06 PM

It is really amazing in how we could change as a society on a given subject( in this case a "supposed visit by ET") by the "variables" as you put it being shuffled around.

Do you suppose if we were being studied that this is something that would be looked at carefully?

I did'nt get on the psychohistory thread, sounds like I missed some good info and discussion. I need to be more observant.

best regards,
odin1
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/25/08 06:59 AM

Odin1: "Do you suppose if we were being studied that this is something that would be looked at carefully?"

If I were a zoologist or anthropologist, I would try to ensure that I studied the subjects with minimal interference (preferably none at all) in order to not to introduce disturbing or corrupting influences. At best, such influences could result in a distorted and false picture of the pristine state. At worst, they could ultimately lead to the extinction of the studied species.

The Psychohistory is here: http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25095#Post25095
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 12:15 AM

But, being the devil's advocate-do you think it is fair to assume that another species - evolved on another world would "think" or have the same values we would have? I ask this for the sake of another opinion. Let me add this, Carl Sagan said in reference to humans mixing genetically with ET. He said there was a better chance of mixing with a petunia because we don't know if ET even has DNA. I know I just compared apples with oranges but you understand where I'm going. Perhaps their views and belief system would be as alien as the species.

What say you?
odin1
Posted by: Amaranth Rose II

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 03:44 AM

You make a good point, odin1, one that was made several times on Star Trek. We are highly arrogant to assume that all life must be centered on DNA. We are foolish to assume that we would find life like ourselves on other planets. No doubt that life form would have its own code of conduct, but that might not include allowing the human race to survive. Something to ponder, anyway. :-)
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 04:05 AM

Yes, Rose, very true, but I think such assumptions regarding DNA and humanoid ETs are as likely to be due to naivete as to arrogance.

Odin1: "do you think it is fair to assume that another species - evolved on another world would "think" or have the same values we would have?"

Here's what I think:

In general, it's reasonable to suppose that their thinking and values would be very different. At a very basic level, though, I suspect that they could be quite the same. Whatever the aliens are, they would not have simply popped into existence; they would have been moulded by evolution. Evolution produces species that tend to perpetuate their own survival at all costs. Humans are equipped with attributes to achieve this: instinct, emotion and intelligence.

In aliens, just as in humans, instincts (autonomic processes) that dominated in earlier stages of evolution would have come to play a lesser role as intelligence grew.

Emotion, as we understand it, may be absent, but I think it likely that there would be some equivalent complex mechanisms serving to preserve the species, probably pre-dating an effective level of intelligence.

With the advent of intelligence comes the development of sophisticated behaviour and methods of enhancing the environment to achieve the survival goal. Information, therefore, becomes very important to survival and development, so it would be illogical to destroy a source of information unless failure to do so posed a sufficiently serious threat, or represented an overall disadvantage to the species.
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 01:34 PM

Hello Armaranth,

the happy thought to think would be that a species that could "jump" space freely would (assuming that's how they would do it) also have a respect for life present on other planets.

But, there is always the possiblity they could arrive like the Spanish in south america - and bring greed and disease- the disese not being intentional.

It is one thing to try to communicate with someone that lives on another continent. It is another to communicate and deal with a being that don't look like you and lives light years away.

best regards,
odin1
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 02:30 PM

Hello redewenur,

you said:

"With the advent of intelligence comes the development of sophisticated behaviour and methods of enhancing the environment to achieve the survival goal. Information, therefore, becomes very important to survival and development, so it would be illogical to destroy a source of information unless failure to do so posed a sufficiently serious threat, or represented an overall disadvantage to the species."

Again I will be the devil's advocate- again we are assuming what is intelligence is, and assuming their belief systems are comparable to ours. The question to ask would be how did their beliefs evolve and what interacted with their development to make them what they are? Perhaps they don't want to destroy, but change things a little, to see what would happen if.....
Perhaps their desire to learn is their religion. Just a thought,and if this were so,for the sake of conversation merely fictional, how would you have a dialogue with this kind of being?

best regards,
odin1


Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 04:09 PM

Hi, odin1 - so many interesting points!

"we are assuming what is intelligence is..."

- Many have questioned the nature of intelligence, and it could be a suitable topic for another thread. For the purposes of this thread, I'm assuming a simple definition:

a. The faculty of thought and reason
b. The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge

"...and assuming their belief systems are comparable to ours."

- So far, I've taken the optimistic view that an advanced technological civilisation, which has successfully endured for at least many millenia, is necessarily rational, and would not hold beliefs systems comparable to those that predominate among contemporary humankind.

"Perhaps their desire to learn is their religion..."

- I take 'religion' to mean an institutionalized system of beliefs relating to the supernatural. So, I also take it that you are proposing an alien race that regards all knowledge as being of supernatural origin, and therefore 'holy'. In that case, such a race may perhaps have a 'Priesthood of Science and Technology' consisting of scientists of the highest rank. Learning would then be not only a useful occupation, but also a moral and religious duty.

"...and if this were so, for the sake of conversation merely fictional, how would you have a dialogue with this kind of being?"

- In this respect, it may be a great deal easier than it is for humans of different religions to dialogue with each other.

Regarding your earlier question -

"The question to ask would be how did their beliefs evolve and what interacted with their development to make them what they are?"

- I think the several thousand years - or possibly much longer - of (a) reaping the benefits of the scientific method, and (b) observing the unfolding of the beauties of the universe, would probably account for the evolution of their beliefs. I'm not quite clear about the second half of the question - could you expand on it?
Posted by: Amaranth Rose II

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 06:27 PM

Odin1,
There is of course the disease factor. What new and exotic plagues could result from first contact with space aliens, must give us pause. It's true that the Spaniards brought more than religion to the Americas. Religion was bad enough, for in its sake all manner of culture was destroyed. The Incas and Aztecs had written languages and traditions which the church suppressed and destroyed in the name of religion. How might we respond to an extraterrestrial who insisted on us converting to their religion? Conversely, what would we give up in order to know the secret of living longer, say to 200 years of age instead of the 100 we now accept as the general limit? Would ET care about our concerns in this regard? What if ET is a giant squid which communicates with others by changing color and pattern, and does not consider our written language to be of any use? I'm not so sure I want to meet ET, for I think he/she/it will be far more different than similar to us.
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 07:21 PM

And Amaranth,

Suppose what we were offered as a tradeout really turned out to be an experiment for their purpose, as I mentioned to redewenur, suppose their religion was "learning" without regard to what they considered to be just another life form.

best regards,
odin1
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/26/08 07:33 PM

Hello redewener,

Sure, say for instance their species had suffered staggering loss of life due to war, a terrible plague, even possibly an interaction with another species that altered the course of their normal developement. Possibly to a degree that a survival "gene" kicked in and took something out of their psyche that seemed irrelevent to them anymore. I use the term "religion" as a metaphor to the importance they have placed theirselves and their work.

You are right maybe another thread should be started on intelligence.

best regards,
odin1
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/27/08 02:21 AM

odin1

So, instead of learning having literally become a religion, it filled the psychological void once occupied by religion.

Let's check out the rest of the scenario:

(a) Religion was once part of their normal cultural development
(b) Religion was abandoned
(c) The absence of religion represented a psychological deficit to their survival capabilities
(d) To compensate for the deficit, they devoted themselves to learning

The question you've raised is: "What could have caused them to abandon their religion?"

Is that right so far?
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/27/08 03:09 AM

No, religion may not even be in their vocabulary. That could not be a concept to them. Suppose they actually have no home planet because of war, disese or maybe they ruined their environment. They could be nomads, putting up small settlements in different places and over time since they have no concept of a governing power in the universe other than themselves.

Their survival fuels the need for the "learning"..
They don't learn because they are intersted, they learn because it is a stepping stone to the next need, for their survival. The survival of the group, colony whatever dictates their actions.

best regards,
odin1

Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/27/08 03:36 AM

odin1

That's a very desolate scenario. Home planet uninhabitable. No interest in learning, but compelled to learn in order to survive. I think they could quite easily manage without a concept of a universal governing power. But...no joy; no sense of mystery, awe and wonder. I can think of no reason why these beings would wish to exist. I'm surprised that they bother. I would feel sympathy for these creatures, but it seems to me that they are nothing more than von Neumann automatons, devoid of any function resembling emotion, and therefore dead to any sense of purpose.

- - -

Rose: "There is of course the disease factor. What new and exotic plagues could result from first contact with space aliens, must give us pause."

- But then if, as you suppose likely, they aren't DNA based, then there should be no risk. H. G. Wells' Martians would appear to have had no such good fortune.
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/27/08 04:11 PM

That is my point, we always assume our thought is universal. Even if you are from a different country on planet earth or speak another language the thought process can be different. Even jokes, what is funny to me may offend or not have the effect it would on someone living and speaking in entirely different stimuli. Believe me I have stuck my foot in my mouth before being insensitive to the thoughts of someone just on the other side of the world, and did it without any will to do so.

I know of no written rules that say every species in the universe share the same logic as we do. How would you define "logic"?

best regards,
odin1
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/27/08 06:36 PM

odin1

Logic is a system of reasoning; in discussing the philosophy of logic, I would be out of my depth, but I'll venture to suggest that if you're endowing your aliens with minds that defy logic as we understand it, then any question regarding their rationale, motives or behaviour becomes unanswerable.
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/27/08 07:13 PM

Exactly,

Could you have just answered the question:

why would the governments of the free world withhold information or proof of ET?

If the logic between two species are different, how can you come to any agreement or explain to the populus that they will be under no threat from the visitors. Much like Hitler, he would sign anything, it meant nothing to him. The end justified the means and he was human. You would call him a liar, but what would you call ET, if there were only his truths, no lies?

This is a test redewenur--you will be graded on this.

best regards,
odin1






Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/27/08 07:29 PM

Tut-tut. You're making me think. I'll find some way to make you pay for your crimes.

I'll backtrack! Logic is logic. It's the basis of the logic that differs. It's about psychology. The alien logic can be comprehended only when their psychology is understood. So, I would rephrase your question:

"If the logic between two species are different..." >>> If the alien psychology cannot be understood...

adding "...then any question regarding their rationale, motives or behaviour becomes unanswerable."

And look, if I don't make the grade, I expect a consolation prize for effort.

P.S. - There's the additional question: Who would you be most likely to believe - the aliens, or the politicians?!
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/27/08 07:50 PM

You will recieve the "Science A GoGo consolation prize for effort"

odin1
Posted by: odin1

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/28/08 04:05 AM

I didn't see your second question but that one is easy.

I would believe the aliens.
After all anyone that will let Santa snowski on their property can't be all bad.

best regards,
odin1

Posted by: Mike Kremer

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 10/21/08 12:01 AM

A second release of UFO files opened by the UK Goverment
the other day.
This includes the highly publizised May 20th 1957 Report, of a aircraft carrier size UFo chased by UK and US pilots

http://www.ufo-blog.com/ufo-blog/2008/10/national-archives-second-release-of-mod.html

The 1991 Al Italia passenger jet buzzed, seen by all crew and passengers
(I cant find this, but believe its somewhere in below?)

http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Plus the recent few frames Video, of a supposed UFO that (may have been watching?) the French Jet Man. who built and flew his home made 'strap on' jet from 'model shop parts' and flew across the English Channel last week.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/ufos/article1750516.ece
***
Hohum. the above for believers only, with sharp eyesight.


Posted by: qraal

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 01/09/09 04:53 AM

The discussion of xeno-psychology is interesting. Robert Freitas discussed the issues in a number of articles in the early 1980s...

“Xenopsychology,” Analog 104(April 1984):41-53
http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/Xenopsychology.htm

plus a good one on xenobiology...

“Xenobiology,” Analog 101(30 March 1981):30-41
http://www.xenology.info/Papers/Xenobiology.htm

...surprisingly not as dated as you might think. Freitas also argued strongly against the skeptics who believed there were no signs of ETs in our Solar System, therefore They didn't exist. He rightly pointed out the current search was incomplete - and it still is. Now it's even more complicated because we know a lot more about optics and making things invisible - at least in theory.
Posted by: redewenur

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 01/09/09 07:03 AM

qraal

Many thanks for the links. Scanned them briefly, and will read through them. Very interesting indeed.
Posted by: Amaranth Rose II

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 01/09/09 05:56 PM

Thanks for the links, qraal. Very interesting material there. I bookmarked it for future reference for my Sci-Fi writing.
Posted by: Iztaci

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 01/09/09 10:20 PM

graal;

Just echoing the thanks you're getting from the others. This material is just simply the most interesting I've seen in many moons. I hope it generates some discussion soon.

Many thanks.
Posted by: Tutor Turtle

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 01/10/09 06:29 PM

What caught my eye is the following paragraph:

Perhaps the most exciting development for xenologicians in this century is Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. In 1931 an American mathematician named Kurt Gödel devised a brilliant proof that any system of logic must necessarily either be internally inconsistent or incomplete. Gödel's proof demonstrated for the first time that there exist statements that are unprovable in any logic system (even the Aristotelian system) and that all arithmetic as we know it is at best incomplete, at worst inconsistent. Further, it is logically impossible to construct a single grand "metalogic" capable of subsuming all other modes of logic while remaining consistent itself. So human mathematics–the language of the physical sciences–is incomplete.


In light of certain posts which are determined to idealize the definitions of reality be they scientific or otherwise, where chauvinistic applications of personal opinions and their expressions are focused on degrading information, their sources and the messengers, I find this statement revealing. Especially in light of the praise given to these 25 year old documents by some of those inclined to boast supreme idealism and pride in association to such a personal domain.

Another interesting tidbit was the reference to growing interest in the Seti project. In 1992, the U.S. government funded an operational SETI program, in the form of the NASA "Microwave Observing Program (MOP)". MOP was planned as a long-term effort, performing a "Targeted Search" of 800 specific nearby stars, along with a general "Sky Survey" to scan the sky. MOP was to be performed by radio dishes associated with the NASA Deep Space Network, as well as a 43-meter dish at Green Bank and the big Arecibo dish. The signals were to be analyzed by spectrum analyzers, each with a capacity of 15 million channels. These spectrum analyzers could be ganged to obtain greater capacity. Those used in the Targeted Search had a bandwidth of 1 hertz per channel, while those used in the Sky Survey had a bandwidth of 30 hertz per channel.

MOP drew the attention of the U.S. Congress, where the program was strongly ridiculed, and was canceled a year after its start.

Evidently Humanity is not ready to agree on any definitions of reality when it comes to extraterrestrial life, and I would surmise that such a state of evolutionary development would have to be preceded by some kind of evidence to the idea that terrestrial life could actually survive its own differences of opinion and the animosity of prejudice and pride contained within those personal opinions.

cool
Posted by: Ellis

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 01/30/09 03:43 AM

Are we not supposing that we could, or would, recognise an alien life form if we saw it? We have pre-conceived ideas of exactly what life entails, especially possible intelligent life. The whole point about alien, as a word or concept has to include that the object is totally unknown. The intention of the 'unknown' objects and reports mentioned in these files is to present them as intelligible to our own understanding, to interpret them, or to provide a framework for us to use to evaluate them. It could be we would never be able to do so, and we may be in fact unable to comprehend both the alienness that they would represent and the fact of their existence --- if they ever visited us.
Posted by: Mike Kremer

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 02/09/09 09:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Are we not supposing that we could, or would, recognise an alien life form if we saw it? We have pre-conceived ideas of exactly what life entails, especially possible intelligent life. The whole point about alien, as a word or concept has to include that the object is totally unknown. ------------------------------------->--- if they ever visited us.


[quote=Mike Kremer]
Of the many hundreds of UFO's seen by the world every year, the very best are still kept secret.
We have dozens of sightings here in the UK every year. But the very best have still been kept secret from the public.
Even the Tory Opposition leader, David Cameron publicly vowed yesterday that if he becomes Prime Minister he will publish any secret UFO files that exist.
This Greek UFO file kept secret for a year was leaked yesterday.

A UFO seen by three different Pilots from 3 different aircraft
as well as other passengers.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/ufos/article2219187.ece

Posted by: Singh001

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 02/24/09 06:39 AM

Hi,
UFOs are always my one of the favourite subject to discuss about. The info. provided by you is very useful at least for me.
CSK
Posted by: Mike Kremer

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 03/23/09 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Singh001
Hi,
UFOs are always my one of the favourite subject to discuss about. The info. provided by you is very useful at least for me.
CSK

[quote=Mike Kremer]

The third set of UFO documents to be released by the Ministry of Defence covers the period from 1987 to 1993.

This Item was reported the other day eek

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7954001.stm
Posted by: Andist

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 07/19/09 01:04 PM

I like the one about the man being too old and infirm for the aliens purposes.

The only reason that I can think of for governments keeping quiet about this stuff is that maybe they get technological ideas from aliens?

When I was doing electroncs, many years ago, we had an old guy teaching us called Bob. Bob, who had worked for the british Ministry Of Defence told us that military technoligy was about twenty years ahead of commercial technology but that that gap was closing.

Maybe commercial electronics has caught up with MOD stuff but when it comes to aircraft, Harrier Jump jets took many years to rival and arguably still have not been rivaled.
This is not British patriotism at work here BTW, I think that us brits are one of the least patriotic nations on earth. What is there to be proud of? Starting loads of wars or helping America start a few other wars?
Posted by: TheFallibleFiend

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 07/20/09 12:58 PM

I can think of other reasons that governments might keep quiet about it - because some very few of them are listening to what actual scientists say on the subject. It's vastly more likely that people who have seen UFOs are reporting on things that they were confused about or did not understand. Eye-witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

Vision happens not in the eyes, but in the brain. Much of what we see is what we expect to see. It's one of the reasons that science exists in its current form. I put together and exhibit for students that helps to illustrate the brain-vision connection and use some of these types of illusions to illustrate:


http://www.popularscience.co.uk/features/feat16.htm

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/06/24/the-blue-and-the-green/

http://www.youramazingbrain.org/supersenses/wheels.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pK0BQ9CUHk


Know-nothing obscurantists are quick to pounce on people's misunderstandings with completely insane "explanations" which they insist are just as likely - or even VASTLY MORE likely than prosaic explanations.

Posted by: Mike Kremer

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 03/03/11 03:32 PM


The UK Opens even More of its UFO Files
(March 2nd 20011)

The British goverment has released yet another block of UK UFO sightings yesterday.
These follow on from the last release, and contain a batch of 35 files, containing 35,000 pages of sightings, reports, and photographs from the five years up to 2005.

http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Posted by: paul

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 04/21/11 10:03 PM

I clicked on one of the "released" file links and it cost
3.5 BP to release it enough to read it.

I think that released is the wrong word to use.

thats 119.00 BP if all 34 cost 3.5 BP each , is the British Government starting up a publishing company?

or maybe there is another site that actually releases the files for free.

as in set them free for anyone to freely read without any associated cost.

or does the British Government plan on paying their peoples
back for the cost of generating the files?





Posted by: kallog

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/12/11 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: paul
Government starting up a publishing company?

They do this with some of the war and census records too. I think it may be to cover the cost of scanning/transcribing all those old paper documents. Users pays is better than innocent taxpayers paying for some silly UFO stories.

But hey, it seems like reports of ball lightening faded away somewhat before UFO reports started to appear. I guess thunderstorms just aren't what they used to be.
Posted by: Bill

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/12/11 02:02 AM

I think that ball lightning in its many forms has been much reduced, at least in the United States. I was raised in SouthEastern Oklahoma in the late 1930s. I have heard older people talking about severe thunder storms with St. Elmo's Fire dripping from fences and power lines, and ball lightning flying around. In fact I have been told that when I was very young I was chased across the porch by a ball of lightning. It grounded out on a metal wash tub hanging on the wall. But I have never seen any manifestations of that sort that I can recall. I suspect that the reduction in such displays has to do with the number of power lines that we now have. The power poles all have grounds from the top, and I suspect that they drain some of the charge from the clouds so they don't get quite strong enough to create the strange displays. Of course this is purely conjecture on my part since I don't really know how they form, and what it takes to disrupt them.

Bill Gill
Posted by: kallog

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/12/11 02:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Bill
that the reduction in such displays has to do with the number of power lines that we now have. The power

Yea it could be some change in the environment like that. Many of the reports seem to be from outside of cities.

But there must be cases of ball lightening where people have claimed it was a UFO (or even a flying saucer) and nobody took them seriously.
Posted by: Bill

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 05/12/11 02:18 PM

I have no doubt that some UFO sightings could have been ball lightning. Of course there was a long time when scientists didn't believe in ball lightning. Or at least that is what I have heard. The report may of course have been what a few scientists said, not what the general consensus would have been. Taking the words of a few and attaching them to the many is a common thing to happen.

But as far as I know there still isn't much of a consensus as to how ball lightning and St. Elmo's fire work. I presume it is some kind of a plasma display, but how it manages to stay together is a pretty good question.

Bill Gill
Posted by: Mark Holland

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 02/09/13 04:17 AM

Unexplained aerial observations have been reported throughout history. Some were undoubtedly astronomical in nature: comets, bright meteors, one or more of the five planets that can be seen with the naked eye, planetary conjunctions, or atmospheric optical phenomena such as parhelia and lenticular clouds. An example is Halley's Comet, which was recorded first by Chinese astronomers in 240 BC and possibly as early as 467 BC. Such sightings throughout history often were treated as supernatural portents, angels, or other religious omens. Some current-day UFO researchers have noticed similarities between some religious symbols in medieval paintings and UFO reports[21] though the canonical and symbolic character of such images is documented by art historians placing more conventional religious interpretations on such images.[22]
Posted by: Mike Kremer

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 07/16/13 07:29 PM

Well here are the last Tranche and final collection of the
British Goverments UFO files. Just released two weeks ago
in June 2013.
These are all the latest files from between 2007 and 2009.
(Yes, it took the UK Goverment six years to release them, but
sadly, there are no more to come)
They include the ones taken at Stonhehenge in 2009.
The M.O.D closed down the UFO hotline in 2009, giving the excuse that to continue UFO Investigations would an inappropriate use of Defense resources.


First, it is best to read the Highlights Guide showing you
specific details of 'How to Navigate through the Release'

http://filestore.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pdfs/ufos/ufo-highlights-guide-2013.pdf


Then go on to read the latest and final UFO releases below.

http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Posted by: paul

Re: UK Opens its UFO Files - 07/29/13 05:12 PM

Mike

This thread was started in May of 2008.

after the 5 years has passed was there anything noticed
in the released files that could be said to have had any
importance?

do we now have any proof of UFO's?

a piece of a UFO or something solid that can be put on display?

what have you found in these files that you believe shows
that UFO's are real?