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Posted By: Tim Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/17/06 08:23 PM
What I find funny is that at schools, evolution is taught as a science, like it's true. But it's not. Any person who studies science -and not the science that's taught in schools- would realize that it has no basis in factual information.
Take, for example, the study of cosmology. The universe had to have had a starting point at some time. How could it have "came out of nothing, by nothing, and for nothing," as atheists say? The universe was created by God. That is the only logical explanation.
Yet another troll. It's so much easier to spout religious stupidity than to actually do some homework on a subject.
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/17/06 08:40 PM
It is so easy to spot atheists. They not only go against Christians, but they go against science. For more information, go to www.freewebs.com/biblicalcreation
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/17/06 08:52 PM
Alfred Russel Wallace, who devised the theory of evolution with Charles Darwin. "There must have been three interpositions of a Divine and supernatural power to account for things as they are: the agreement of science with Genesis is very striking: There is a gulf between matter and nothing; one between life and the non-living; and a third between man and the lower creation; and science can not bridge them!" DId you know that by the 1900's, there were about 80 theories of how the "evolution process worked"? Now, all of them have been disproved by science. Only Darwin's is still taught at schools even though it goes against science. So that's why so many people now are uneducated, violent, and there is famine, death, abortions. Because people are being taught a lie. A lie that Satan, who "walks to and fro throughout the earth, seeking whom he may devour" has devised.
Wallace devised the theory of natural selection INDEPENDENT OF Darwin, not WITH him.

What Wallace said is irrelevant. Evolution explains and is supported by the VAST preponderance of available physical evidence. Pointing to a religious site is not an argument. Get yourself educated. Then you can contribute something of value to the discussion. You don't have to spout stupidity.
Tim wrote:
"What I find funny is that at schools, evolution is taught as a science, like it's true. But it's not."

Funny Tim. I find it tragic that you are engaged in flaunting in public your ignorance and your inability to use your brain. It seems like a terrible waste of carbon dioxide and space.

And this may come as a terrible shock to you but gravity is not Newtonian. Biology is not Linnean. And evolution is not Darwinian. The statements of Alfred Wallace are meaningless. We don't worship graven images.
Posted By: jjw Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/17/06 11:13 PM
Hi Tim:

You appear to be a new visitor.
If you wish to argue against evolution you should do so by demonstrating any faulty reasoning you can muster that it contains. To argue creationistic views will not work. it will, however, get you a lot of attention; probably more than a solid scientific argument would.
jjw
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim:
...........................................
Take, for example, the study of cosmology. The universe had to have had a starting point at some time. How could it have "came out of nothing, by nothing, and for nothing," as atheists say? The universe was created by God. That is the only logical explanation.
I'm sorry to say that your logic, sadly, is back to front Tim.
You are the one that came out of nothing and for nothing, not the Universe.
The Universe never had a starting point.
The Universe is infinite, and has always been in existence. Even Moslems believe that.
And it always will be, since matter and energy cannot ever be destroyed.
If your thinking is really telling you to believe that once there was a nothingness,
I would suggest that your brain is 10,000 years retarded, similar to the cavemen,
who looked skyward and wondered.
all of our science points back to what was called the big bang by someone making fun of the idea. to put it in laymans terms, there was basically a singularity (this is highly simplified, the exact scientific explination is not exactly easy to explain). from that everything has expanded. if this theory of it being a singularity was correct, then them substance of the singularity was already in existance. according to some theories, there was a big crunch before, while others say there is something called simular to strings that causes it the expansion (not going to go into this very detail explaination, you can find it on google if you want, search for string theory). In most theories that bother with pre big bang, there existed something like another universe before ours. Its laws might have been identical to ours or might have been completely different. there is no way to every know.

basically all this adds up to the fact that many people believe that the substance of the universe has alway existed. There would have been no need for a god to create it.
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/18/06 04:39 PM
OK, I agree with you, dehammer. Only what created the universe before ours, and what created the universe before that, and what created the universe before that, and what created the universe before that, which would go on forever. Oh, never mind, I don't agree with you after all; the universe was created by God who is existent.
" the universe was created by God who is existent."
This is a science forum, not a religious forum. Do you have anything to say from a scientific perspective or are you just going to spout stupidity endlessly?
Tim wrote:
"Only what created the universe before ours, and what created the universe before that,"

Your questions are both simplistic and demonstrate an incredible inability to engage in critical thinking.

Where did the universe come from EQUALS where did god come from. It is the same question ... different noun.

The difference is that when I ask the question with respect to god you haven't a clue and you can tear every page out of your cult's holy book and you won't find it there so you respond with some informative answer like "god has always existed."

To again quote Bart Simpson: "Duh!"

Science on the other hand has the integrity to acknowledge that there are questions for which it DOES NOT YET have the answer.

The difference between theologist and scientist is that one has integrity and the other, lacking it, it a hypcrite.

See a deprogrammer.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim:
OK, I agree with you, dehammer. Only what created the universe before ours, and what created the universe before that, and what created the universe before that, and what created the universe before that, which would go on forever. Oh, never mind, I don't agree with you after all; the universe was created by God who is existent.
i don't think you get the picture at all. its called the law of conservation or something like that. energy and matter can be interchanged at some levels. but you can only destroy one by turning into something else. but that something else (the substance of the universe in the 1st 1 x 10 to the -1000 second or so) that our science cant truly explain. but that substance can be packed into an extremely small space. before the universe (if those theories are correct, there was matter which was destroyed by becoming that material. it had expanded and contracted. before it was it expanded everything was the same substance once again. it was not created. it was not destroyed. it cant be destroyed. that universe was created by a big bang of its own.

before it there was a big crunch of another universe, and a big bang before it. again nothing destroyed, nothing created. merely the substance becoming matter and energy, then being turned back into the substance over and over and over again ad infinitum.
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/26/06 02:33 AM
DA Morgan was right. Creationists have integrity. Why are humans so opposed to the gospel. It is the only way that you can go to heaven. Christ came to give us life more abundantly and eternally (John 10:10). Everyone has sinned and falls short of the glory of God. The only way we can come to God is by our belief in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9). It's that easy. All you have to do is get past your pride and admit that you are a fallible human in need of grace and accept Jesus' sacrifice when he died for our sins 2,000 years ago so that we might be saved and get into heaven. For more information, go to www.freewebs.com/biblicalcreation
thats only true if that is your belief. those of us of other religions see a different way to get to heaven, or where ever we intend to go.
"Creationists have integrity."

Creationists are devoid of integrity; they are openly hostile to it wherever they are not oblivious to it; they fail to do the most elementary homework in the areas in which they freely pontificate.

Intellectual laziness is antithetical to integrity.

Your posts contain nothing of science. They are religious screeds.
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/29/06 05:23 PM
Well, if my belief is real, then everyone who isn't saved is going to hell. If my view is false, then there is no hell to go to. Christians would win either way. We teach morality, ethics, and living a good life. So even if we don't have the truth, it wouldn't matter when we die. Ya get what I mean?
If your view is false, then some other god might exist, who will punish you. Christians would not win either way. Many christians believe that living ethically is not sufficient.

Most atheists live ethical and good lives.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim:
Well, if my belief is real, then everyone who isn't saved is going to hell. If my view is false, then there is no hell to go to. Christians would win either way. We teach morality, ethics, and living a good life. So even if we don't have the truth, it wouldn't matter when we die. Ya get what I mean?
if its real for you, then its true for you. that does not mean its true for everyone. each of us has our own paths to follow.

christians teach that you can sin, but then be forgiven by your lord, so even if you kill someone or do major harm to other, there would be no punishment (if your not caught or you have a good lawyer). what kind of a incentive to be good is that. Your going to get a good reward no matter what you do.

My beleif is that what ever we do will return to us. If we are good, good will return to us. If we do evil, evil will return to us. THAT is one major reason not to do evil. THAT is a major incentive to be moral, ethical, and to live a good life. If i want to have the same reward as you, ive got to be good all my life, all the time.


Yours is more like a parent telling his child, that if (s)he does good, (s)he'll gets a reward. If s/he is bad, s/he will go to his/her room without supper. Mine is more like a teenager, learning that if he wants to get the carkeys he will have to do some work for it.
Reminds me of a quote from Catch 22

"That's the kind of God you people talk about, a <snipped>. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of Creation? What in the world was running through that <snipped> mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements?"

There you go Rose: I did your editing for you. Hope you're happy with the censorship. After all I wouldn't want to offend anyone with the actual quote.
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/30/06 03:56 PM
We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ alone, not what we do. If we get past our foolish pride, then we can discover that wer are a wretched sinner in need of a Saviour; we can't do it on our own. Jesus Christ is that Savior; He died for us so that we may have life through His sacrifice. My prayer is that you guys would open up, get past your pride, and hear the good news of the gospel, and be saved.
The "getting past the pride" part is ironic coming from a christian boy set on schooling people 3 times his age.

Your religion teachers have taught you well. It's *out* pride that is the issue here. They send you out with a slingshot and no actual knowledge to battle against the mighty Goliaths.

Fundamentalist theology is antithetical to any sort of understanding. As long as you are in that cult, you are wasting your time discussing science. You haven't contributed one iota of understanding. You haven't gained one iota of understanding.

Science tries to discover the truth. Religion tries to define it.

We're wasting each other's time.
I was saved once. then i realised that religion had no answers, only demands for complete and total dedication to acceptance of someone elses beliefs, and answers. If it cant stand questions, its not your own belief. if its not your own belief, then its not something that you can accept. Salvation from someone else's faith is not worth anything.

this is a science forum, not a religions forum. please dont preach here.
Tim wrote:
"We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ alone"

Sure we are Tim. And how do you know that? What is the source of your information. And yes I want specific references.

1. Which persons and their titles (for example my father and he is a brick layer)
2. Which books and who wrote them

Lets see the depth of your conviction.

Either that or demonstrate that you are not a hypocrite by recognizing that this is a science forum and it is off-topic to birng up your belief in the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny too.
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/31/06 04:31 PM
The apostle Paul wrote "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9

The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 3:21-31 "But now aprt from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the rigteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of aith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith aprt from the works of the Law."

The apostle Paul again wrote in Ephesians 2:9 that "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

Our Lord and Savior, King and Messiah, Christ Jesus said, "Your faith has saved you," (Luke 7:50).

The great preacher and author of over 30 theological Christian books, Charles Suprgeon, said, "Saving faith is an immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, resting upon Him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of God's grace."

Martin Luther , the reformer and author of the ninety-five theses, wrote a thesis entited, "Sola fide" which translated from Latin means "Faith alone"
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 08/31/06 04:32 PM
Is that enough for you? If it isn't, I have many other quotes. Some from the Bible, some from pastors.
This is not a bible quote site. It's a science site. Do you have anything to contribute in the way of actual science? Or are you going to continue to contribute AWESOME religious blather and AWESOMELY erroneous "information" parrotted from AWESOMELY ignorant websites?
Tim wrote:
"The apostle Paul wrote"

Nonsense Tim ... children's Sunday School nonsense.

First off the Apostle Paul never wrote anything you've ever read. What you have read is the result of multiple mistranslations of an authorless book that claims to be a reflection of what Paul said or wrote. Lets get the facts straight here.

Remember I asked you for the specific names of books and their authors. You provided neither.

You are 16 years old and almost an adult capable of setting out on your own and having the right to vote. Hold yourself to a higher standard both intellectually and ethically.

If you think I'm kidding about the actual source of what you've been reading then expose yourself to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus
and follow the links.

Pay special attention to the following:
"Paul's own surviving letters, and the narrative of Acts of the Apostles, which at several points draws from an eyewitness source (the so-called "we passages"). Problems with these sources include the following: Paul's surviving letters were written during a short period of his life (perhaps only between 50 and 58), and the authenticity of some is questioned, and certain parts of Acts have drawn suspicion (e.g., Paul's presence at the death of Stephen [7:58; 8:1' 22:20]).[citation needed] The apocryphal Acts of Paul and Thecla is usually dismissed by scholars as a 2nd century novel because it includes events that do not coincide with any of those recorded in either Acts or Paul's letters."

You have a lot to learn so you might want to start today.
It appears that Tim has a lot of growing up to do.

He claims to be here to learn about science but has so far demonstrated two things.

1. A lack of interest in anything involving science.
2. A lack of real understanding of his own religion.

Really rather sad when a 16 year old's ability to interact is more like that of a 12 year old.
Dan,
There but for the grace ...

Some forms of extreme cultish religion screw up your thinking process so bad that you are not even capable of holding a coherent thought.

Intellectual laziness is simple. Cults often reward intellectual laziness. When you reward it, you get more of it - exactly like Pavlov says. Understanding science takes more effort than simply talking about how awesome things are.

It's so much easier to be intellectually lazy than to do homework on the subject. It's easier to make extremely outrageous statements than a well-considered argument, especially if one doesn't have the intelligence or training to discern between the two.
a few years ago, my mother gave me a booklet that was suppose to help me avoid falling into cults. it gave a description of how to spot a cult. although it was written by the christian church, the description was of the chruch, so much that they had to add the disclaimer, "except the christian chruch" in several places.

basically what they were saying is that anything that resembled the church, except the church itself, was a cult. Any religion is basically a cult of some sort.
Interesting that IFF seems Tim the way I do: In a cult.

Sadly I think the internet may be his only exposure to adults who aren't trying to fill his brain with things that are just not true.

No doubt his parents will outwardly pray for me while inwardly hoping for a slow and painful demise.
Posted By: Tim Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 09/01/06 03:50 PM
*Disclaimer: Although this post might seem corny, I am actually sincere in what I am about to say; not sarcastic although it might look that way.
*Note to moderators: Don't erase this; this is going to be my last 'religious' post on this site.

Last night at church, I became humbled. I realized that I am arguing with people more than twice my age and although I'm telling them, they won't listen to me. I realized that I should give you more respect because you desrve it. The Bible says I'm to respect my elders because they would know more than me. And you guys do; you have arguments for all my facts.

I decided -and it wasn't because of what you guys said- that this 'debate' wasn't going anywhere; I would say something, then you would rebuke me because of the hardness of your hearts. I have gave all of you more than enough time and facts to have decided to follow Christ, but you have rejected it. Jesus told us believers to spread the good news to the gospel to the nations. I thought since you would have a good education, you would be smart enough to view my sayings with an open mind and not bias everything I said because of your situations and situations in life.

I thought you might feel a longing in your heart telling you that there's something more to this futile, worthless, vain life.

Because the 'debate' isn't going anywhere, I decided I'm stepping down at this forum, but I'll still occasionally go on.

God layed this final exortation on my heart last night. I don't know if it applies to any of you, but God told me that it's worth it, the gospel will not go forth in vain. God said, "Woe to those who deeply hide their plans from the Lord, and whose deeds are done in a dark place, and they say, 'Who sees us?' or 'Who knows us?' You turn things around! Shall not the potter be considered as equal with the clay, that which is made would say to its maker, 'He did not make me'; or what is formed say to him who formed it, 'He has no understanding?'

That is found in Isaiah 29:15-16 and Psalm 139 and quoted in Romans 9:20. The Bible says I'm supposed to love my enemies. And I do; I love you guys. Even DA; having him here has helped me study the Bible more to find quotes and facts. Although this might seem a paradox; to love everyone, it's not. I love you guys because Christ first loved us.

Jesus Christ loved us enough to sacrfice Himself on the cross for our sins for us to regain our eternal seperation from God. He loves me; someone who has broke all His Ten Commandments and who isn't perfect. He loves and has a plan for us all. So I love you because He first loved me.
"The Bible says I'm to respect my elders because they would know more than me. And you guys do; you have arguments for all my facts."
No. You have no facts. You have claims. You should respect us because we're your elders. We're not asking you to believe us. We're asking you find real facts and use real logic before you make claims about subject of which you know absolutely nothing.


"then you would rebuke me because of the hardness of your hearts."
No. You were rebuked because you offered facts that weren't facts and reasons that weren't logical or well-considered.

"I have gave all of you more than enough time and facts to have decided to follow Christ, but you have rejected it."
You provided no facts. You provided ill-supported opinions that you called facts.
Tim:

When you choose to follow a religion that makes bold statements about the way the physical world must be, the teachings of that religion are open to study by science. Fundamentalist Christianity makes a myriad of patently false statements about the workings of the universe and the history of Earth.

What you're asking scientists to do is abandon all knowledge and reason in order to be "saved." As Richard Pryor's character once said in a movie, years ago, "Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes???"

If your religion is SO WRONG about the things we know about, how can you expect us to trust that its teachings regarding the great unknown have any validity at all?
Tim wrote:
"I am actually sincere in what I am about to say"

Sorry Tim but you are not a real person. You are a trained parrot. Not one thing you've posted so far consists of words I couldn't find in a bible school coloring book.

You may be sincere. But you are not real.

Tim wrote:
"although I'm telling them, they won't listen to me"

Oh we are listening to you. And we are giving you all of the importance you have earned. Are you really so sheltered that you don't think we were all once 16 ourselves? Are you really so sheltered that you don't think we have heard each and every argument you have made, literally word-for-word, many times before? It is time to put away the bible school coloring book and interact with adults as an adult. Or is thinking for yourself not allowed in your cult?
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim:
and although I'm telling them, they won't listen to me.
The fact is that people dont come to science forums to get preached to. they come here from many different religions (i know of a witch, an atheist, and at least one christian, and i think there is a jew here) to discuss science. Each of us believes that our religion (or lack of it) is what is best for us. If we want to discuss religions, there are many different forums to discuss them, not to mention real world locations. Im sorry if you feel that this takes away your ability to express yourself, but were not really willing to listen to a preacher. If you have some scientific information, well be more than happy to discuss it. But, you see, the point of discussion is that both sides must be willing to listen. If your busy preaching, you cant be able to listen.
Oh brother...

I was going to say something about fanatism, or maybe about being childish, but forget it...

Tim will wake up one day... just like the man that threw himself in the lions' cage screaming "if God exists, he will save me"... Just wonder what might have gone through that guy's mind as the fangs of the lions teared his spine...
Posted By: jjw Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 09/19/06 10:13 PM
Hi RoM:

You appear to be referring to a post by Ameranth where some idiot jums in a lions cage.

posted June 06, 2006 11:34
"KIEV (Reuters) - A man shouting that God would keep him safe was mauled to death by a lioness in Kiev zoo after he crept into the animal's enclosure, a zoo official said on Monday."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060605/od_nm/ukraine_lion_dc

By Ms A "Proof of no god, or something else?"

Not to be picky here but there is a big difference in the message as you present it and the way it was reported. The real story shows clearly the idiot believed there was a God and that his God would save him. Your quote makes it a test of sorts by IF there is a God he will save him. He never established that his God was listening! IF there was/is a God why should he save a non-believer? Of course the end result would have been the same either way because the lioness did not understand his language, it did not believe in God and worst of all she did not like idiots. She made an exception because she was hungry. Just one view.
jjw
Posted By: RicS Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 10/27/06 04:54 PM
G'day Tim,

So Gandhi has no place in heaven? And I guess suicide bombers do because they have been promised a place. And what about all those poor souls that have been on this planet for many thousands of years before they knew about Christianity or even God in the Christian form. That doesn't seem fair. So I think you've established that Gandhi would miss out, as would quite a few others that have done saintly things while on earth but didn't even know there was a Christ and you've also established that Jeffrey Dahmer, Al Bundy and Adolf Hitler are in Heaven because before they died they all accepted Christ. I'm not sure I want to be a member of a "club" that accepts the very worst of humanity simply because they believe.

If God is infinite and being God it must be, how does it create a finite universe at some point? If God was there forever, that means the time before the creation of a universe was infinite. If it was infinite then the creation of the universe could not occur.

However, if the universe is infinite, then God could not have created it because there is no "before" for the universe.

All of this sounds good but there is a flaw. God could be infinite and has created an infinite number of universes at regular (or even irregular intervals). Heaven would also have to be infinite because there would be an infinite number of beings in it, even if only a very few managed to get in for each universe created. Unless of course those souls only managed to go to heaven for the life of their particular universe. But that sort of says that God is happy to destroy absolutely those that have been rewarded by going to Heaven.

By the thinking you expressed, that the universe is finite and was created by God, then God must be finite as well or God has created an infinite number of universes which sort of puts a whole in your statement that the universe is finite. Of course if God is not infinite then it isn't much of a God - more like a Greek or Roman one.

All of this is to just point out that logic you used has the odd flaw. I see nothing wrong with having a God and an infinite universe. I don't see any proof for it but hey, if there was absolute proof of God, your idea that only those that believe go to heaven would be pretty lame. Faith is the belief in something in the absence of proof. If you want to attempt to prove the existence of God, I would suggest you don't have the faith to believe in God. That nicely leaves you out of heaven.


Regards


Richard
I think dehammer summed it up quite well way back: "

"My belief is that what ever we do will return to us. If we are good, good will return to us. If we do evil, evil will return to us."

Science? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
And then again - sometimes crap happens.

Science? natural selection.
True.

Sorry, it was soilguy that made the earlier statement.
Terry:

I was not trying to be disrespectful, I was practising "humour" but I think natural selection will destine my efforts to mirthless agony.
No, no my fairhaired starwalker friend. I was agreeing with you. I was apologising to both soilguy and dehammer for confusing their remarks. By the way, where abouts in Aotearoa do you stay?
Posted By: alsy Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 11/05/06 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim:
What I find funny is that at schools, evolution is taught as a science, like it's true. But it's not. Any person who studies science -and not the science that's taught in schools- would realize that it has no basis in factual information.
Take, for example, the study of cosmology. The universe had to have had a starting point at some time. How could it have "came out of nothing, by nothing, and for nothing," as atheists say? The universe was created by God. That is the only logical explanation.
Posted By: alsy Re: Starting point of Universe Evidence for God - 11/05/06 11:46 PM
Hello tim,I think the universe could have been created from nothing.You see,for me the word `nothing`describes to me an `existence`of `something`which in this case is `nothing`Meaning there would be no word to describe it if it didn`t exist.Even `nothing`is a state of existence.
It is easier than that Alsy.

Turn a zero into a one.
One there was nothing.
Then there is something.
The amount of time and energy required?
Unmeasurably small.
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