Science a GoGo's Home Page
Posted By: RM what the heck, why don't we all just die? - 12/13/05 09:48 PM
This question is not adressed to those who believe in an afterlife so please, spare me the mumbo jumbo.
Anyway, what's the point in all the trouble of living if one day you just die and it's all invain.
Rob,

On any level - religious or not - yes, life is hard and painful at times, but it is also beautiful, amazing & exhilarating. Have you experienced the first flush of love - how amazing was it? Good to be alive? My daughter is two and brings me more joy than I could have imagined + more irritation and sleepless nights than I could have imagined smile

Stand on the edge of a vast lake with mountains stretching off into the distance, walk through a forest in spring or crunch your way across freshly fallen snow. Get lost in a painting, drift away with Vaughn William's, ponder the workings of the Universe or simply slump in a chair at the end of a long day and dangle your lips in a cup of coffee. Connect with another human being - feel the warmth of helping someone in need - feel the warmth of someone helping you - sit on the net and communicate with people across the other side of the world, (or even read this post written by a guy who you don't know but has enjoyed debating with you).

I suppose it comes down to what we actually do with life and whether we appreciate what we have. It's easy to become morose and live under a shadow - I do it myself sometimes - but it's just as easy to take a deep breath and pull ourselves up to our full height and think 'it's a privilege to exist' - and what a time to exist.

Regards,

Blacknad.

P.S. I shouldn't be concerned for you should I - asking questions like that?
Rob-

One man's answer:

We look for some reward of our endeavours and are disappointed; not success, not happiness, not even peace of conscience, crowns our ineffectual efforts to do well. Our frailties are invincible, our virtues barren; the battle goes sore against us to the going down of the sun. The canting moralist tells us of right and wrong; and we look abroad, even on the face of our small earth, and find them change with every climate, and no country where some action is not honoured for a virtue and none where it is not branded for a vice; and we look in our experience, and find no vital congruity in the wisest rules, but at the best a municipal fitness. It is not strange if we are tempted to despair of good. We ask too much. Our religions and moralities have been trimmed to flatter us, till they are all emasculate and sentimentalised, and only please and weaken. Truth is of a rougher strain. In the harsh face of life, faith can read a bracing gospel. The human race is a thing more ancient than the ten commandments; and the bones and revolutions of the Kosmos, in whose joints we are but moss and fungus, more ancient still.

Of the Kosmos in the last resort, science reports many doubtful things and all of them appalling. There seems no substance to this solid globe on which we stamp: nothing but symbols and ratios. Symbols and ratios carry us and bring us forth and beat us down; gravity that swings the incommensurable suns and worlds through space, is but a figment varying inversely as the squares of distances; and the suns and worlds themselves, imponderable figures of abstraction, NH3, and H2O. Consideration dares not dwell upon this view; that way madness lies; science carries us into zones of speculation, where there is no habitable city for the mind of man.

But take the Kosmos with a grosser faith, as our senses give it us. We behold space sown with rotatory islands, suns and worlds and the shards and wrecks of systems: some, like the sun, still blazing; some rotting, like the earth; others, like the moon, stable in desolation. All of these we take to be made of something we call matter: a thing which no analysis can help us to conceive; to whose incredible properties no familiarity can reconcile our minds. This stuff, when not purified by the lustration of fire, rots uncleanly into something we call life; seized through all its atoms with a pediculous malady; swelling in tumours that become independent, sometimes even (by an abhorrent prodigy) locomotory; one splitting into millions, millions cohering into one, as the malady proceeds through varying stages. This vital putrescence of the dust, used as we are to it, yet strikes us with occasional disgust, and the profusion of worms in a piece of ancient turf, or the air of a marsh darkened with insects, will sometimes check our breathing so that we aspire for cleaner places. But none is clean: the moving sand is infected with lice; the pure spring, where it bursts out of the mountain, is a mere issue of worms; even in the hard rock the crystal is forming.

In two main shapes this eruption covers the countenance of the earth: the animal and the vegetable: one in some degree the inversion of the other: the second rooted to the spot; the first coming detached out of its natal mud, and scurrying abroad with the myriad feet of insects or towering into the heavens on the wings of birds: a thing so inconceivable that, if it be well considered, the heart stops. To what passes with the anchored vermin, we have little clue, doubtless they have their joys and sorrows, their delights and killing agonies: it appears not how. But of the locomotory, to which we ourselves belong, we can tell more. These share with us a thousand miracles: the miracles of sight, of hearing, of the projection of sound, things that bridge space; the miracles of memory and reason, by which the present is conceived, and when it is gone, its image kept living in the brains of man and brute; the miracle of reproduction, with its imperious desires and staggering consequences. And to put the last touch upon this mountain mass of the revolting and the inconceivable, all these prey upon each other, lives tearing other lives in pieces, cramming them inside themselves, and by that summary process, growing fat: the vegetarian, the whale, perhaps the tree, not less than the lion of the desert; for the vegetarian is only the eater of the dumb.

Meanwhile our rotatory island loaded with predatory life, and more drenched with blood, both animal and vegetable, than ever mutinied ship, scuds through space with unimaginable speed, and turns alternate cheeks to the reverberation of a blazing world, ninety million miles away.

What a monstrous spectre is this man, the disease of the agglutinated dust, lifting alternate feet or lying drugged with slumber; killing, feeding, growing, bringing forth small copies of himself; grown upon with hair like grass, fitted with eyes that move and glitter in his face; a thing to set children screaming; - and yet looked at nearlier, known as his fellows know him, how surprising are his attributes! Poor soul, here for so little, cast among so many hardships, filled with desires so incommensurate and so inconsistent, savagely surrounded, savagely descended, irremediably condemned to prey upon his fellow lives: who should have blamed him had he been of a piece with his destiny and a being merely barbarous? And we look and behold him instead filled with imperfect virtues: infinitely childish, often admirably valiant, often touchingly kind; sitting down, amidst his momentary life, to debate of right and wrong and the attributes of the deity; rising up to do battle for an egg or die for an idea; singling out his friends and his mate with cordial affection; bringing forth in pain, rearing with long-suffering solicitude, his young. To touch the heart of his mystery, we find, in him one thought, strange to the point of lunacy: the thought of duty; the thought of something owing to himself, to his neighbour, to his God: an ideal of decency, to which he would rise if it were possible; a limit of shame, below which, if it be possible, he will not stoop. The design in most men is one of conformity; here and there, in picked natures, it transcends itself and soars on the other side, arming martyrs with independence; but in all, in their degrees, it is a bosom thought: - Not in man alone, for we trace it in dogs and cats whom we know fairly well, and doubtless some similar point of honour sways the elephant, the oyster, and the louse, of whom we know so little: - But in man, at least, it sways with so complete an empire that merely selfish things come second, even with the selfish: that appetites are starved, fears are conquered, pains supported; that almost the dullest shrinks from the reproof of a glance, although it were a child?s; and all but the most cowardly stand amid the risks of war; and the more noble, having strongly conceived an act as due to their ideal, affront and embrace death. Strange enough if, with their singular origin and perverted practice, they think they are to be rewarded in some future life: stranger still, if they are persuaded of the contrary, and think this blow, which they solicit, will strike them senseless for eternity. I shall be reminded what a tragedy of misconception and misconduct man at large presents: of organised injustice, cowardly violence and treacherous crime; and of the damning imperfections of the best. They cannot be too darkly drawn. Man is indeed marked for failure in his efforts to do right. But where the best consistently miscarry, how tenfold more remarkable that all should continue to strive; and surely we should find it both touching and inspiriting, that in a field from which success is banished, our race should not cease to labour.

If the first view of this creature, stalking in his rotatory isle, be a thing to shake the courage of the stoutest, on this nearer sight, he startles us with an admiring wonder. It matters not where we look, under what climate we observe him, in what stage of society, in what depth of ignorance, burthened with what erroneous morality; by camp-fires in Assiniboia, the snow powdering his shoulders, the wind plucking his blanket, as he sits, passing the ceremonial calumet and uttering his grave opinions like a Roman senator; in ships at sea, a man inured to hardship and vile pleasures, his brightest hope a fiddle in a tavern and a bedizened trull who sells herself to rob him, and he for all that simple, innocent, cheerful, kindly like a child, constant to toil, brave to drown, for others; in the slums of cities, moving among indifferent millions to mechanical employments, without hope of change in the future, with scarce a pleasure in the present, and yet true to his virtues, honest up to his lights, kind to his neighbours, tempted perhaps in vain by the bright gin-palace, perhaps long-suffering with the drunken wife that ruins him; in India (a woman this time) kneeling with broken cries and streaming tears, as she drowns her child in the sacred river; in the brothel, the discard of society, living mainly on strong drink, fed with affronts, a fool, a thief, the comrade of thieves, and even here keeping the point of honour and the touch of pity, often repaying the world?s scorn with service, often standing firm upon a scruple, and at a certain cost, rejecting riches: - everywhere some virtue cherished or affected, everywhere some decency of thought and carriage, everywhere the ensign of man?s ineffectual goodness: - ah! if I could show you this! if I could show you these men and women, all the world over, in every stage of history, under every abuse of error, under every circumstance of failure, without hope, without help, without thanks, still obscurely fighting the lost fight of virtue, still clinging, in the brothel or on the scaffold, to some rag of honour, the poor jewel of their souls! They may seek to escape, and yet they cannot; it is not alone their privilege and glory, but their doom; they are condemned to some nobility; all their lives long, the desire of good is at their heels, the implacable hunter.

Of all earth?s meteors, here at least is the most strange and consoling: that this ennobled lemur, this hair-crowned bubble of the dust, this inheritor of a few years and sorrows, should yet deny himself his rare delights, and add to his frequent pains, and live for an ideal, however misconceived. Nor can we stop with man. A new doctrine, received with screams a little while ago by canting moralists, and still not properly worked into the body of our thoughts, lights us a step farther into the heart of this rough but noble universe. For nowadays the pride of man denies in vain his kinship with the original dust. He stands no longer like a thing apart. Close at his heels we see the dog, prince of another genus: and in him too, we see dumbly testified the same cultus of an unattainable ideal, the same constancy in failure. Does it stop with the dog? We look at our feet where the ground is blackened with the swarming ant: a creature so small, so far from us in the hierarchy of brutes, that we can scarce trace and scarce comprehend his doings; and here also, in his ordered politics and rigorous justice, we see confessed the law of duty and the fact of individual sin. Does it stop, then, with the ant? Rather this desire of well-doing and this doom of frailty run through all the grades of life: rather is this earth, from the frosty top of Everest to the next margin of the internal fire, one stage of ineffectual virtues and one temple of pious tears and perseverance. The whole creation groaneth and travaileth together. It is the common and the god-like law of life. The browsers, the biters, the barkers, the hairy coats of field and forest, the squirrel in the oak, the thousand-footed creeper in the dust, as they share with us the gift of life, share with us the love of an ideal: strive like us - like us are tempted to grow weary of the struggle - to do well; like us receive at times unmerited refreshment, visitings of support, returns of courage; and are condemned like us to be crucified between that double law of the members and the will. Are they like us, I wonder, in the timid hope of some reward, some sugar with the drug? do they, too, stand aghast at unrewarded virtues, at the sufferings of those whom, in our partiality, we take to be just, and the prosperity of such as, in our blindness, we call wicked? It may be, and yet God knows what they should look for. Even while they look, even while they repent, the foot of man treads them by thousands in the dust, the yelping hounds burst upon their trail, the bullet speeds, the knives are heating in the den of the vivisectionist; or the dew falls, and the generation of a day is blotted out. For these are creatures, compared with whom our weakness is strength, our ignorance wisdom, our brief span eternity.

And as we dwell, we living things, in our isle of terror and under the imminent hand of death, God forbid it should be man the erected, the reasoner, the wise in his own eyes - God forbid it should be man that wearies in well-doing, that despairs of unrewarded effort, or utters the language of complaint. Let it be enough for faith, that the whole creation groans in mortal frailty, strives with unconquerable constancy: Surely not all in vain.

Robert Louis Stevenson, Across the Plains, Chapter 11 - Pulvis Et Umbra. (Scribner's Magazine, vol. 3, issue 4, April, 1888)

VB
Posted By: RM Re: what the heck, why don't we all just die? - 12/14/05 09:46 AM
Blacknad,
"Life is hard and painful at times" You seem to think that I posted this thread because I was depressed or something. No, this is just another ordinary question. I am not depressed or even sad.
Like the imagery in your reply. However, you WILL STILL die one day and all that fun you had will practically not have happened (try to see it from my point of view, not as someone who believes in life after death). Do not try to reassure me or comfort me in any way please, I did not post this thread out of desperation to put some meaning to existence. It's just an interesting thought.

BELLATOR,
Sorry, I didn?t read your post. Man, it was too long!! I?ll have to print it out and sit down to read it. Get back to you soon.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: what the heck, why don't we all just die? - 12/14/05 12:35 PM
When you will die remember the words you said.
And you will know why no likes to die.
Posted By: jjw Re: what the heck, why don't we all just die? - 12/15/05 12:11 AM
Rob asks:

?This question is not addressed to those who believe in an afterlife so please, spare me the mumbo jumbo. Anyway, what's the point in all the trouble of living if one day you just die and it's all in vain??

We seem to have something in common in that we both appear to like numbers. Getting to the issue I am surprised to find that so many members that do not have religious beliefs to answer their questions fall short of enlarging their scientific concepts to provide the answers normally provided by religion. It is a simple matter of creating a new belief basis.

1. Science tells us that the Universe originated without any form of divine intervention. Life is a natural progression of the development of the Universe. Life has no purpose and death a natural result.

2. Religion recites that all was created by a God or supernatural being that was in turn responsible for the life forms we see. This God also provide for a reason for life and a proposed life of sorts after death.

3. The major difference is that science offers no meaning for life and that life?s termination is final and the entire experience worthless.

4. The answer, to provide comfort to those of science that require it, is to simply enlarge on the basic conclusions of science origins. If the Universe can originate of its own then why not originate a secondary kind of Universe to follow the first. A place where all the unfaithful can go and continue to debate the issues they enjoy and live the good life. There is no stretch of logic here because if you can believe this all started on its own there is no limit to where that can take you.

Cheers
jjw
Posted By: Anonymous Re: what the heck, why don't we all just die? - 12/15/05 05:28 AM
Some individuals probably were trying to be more-scientific-than-thou.Otherwise I see good reasons for existence.
Its about holding or doing what you like to do for the longest period of time.In short to increase the Age of what you stand for.It can be democracy or yourself.
Holding is better term as doing comes out of it.
I don't know about you, but my life has been so interesting to me. That's worth something.
And I agree that we are "implacable hunters", but I think we are hunting for happiness instead of "good". Though doing good does tend to lead to happiness; an entirely selfish act.

And I'm looking forward to death, hopefully, following a long life. Whether or not there is life afterwards.

Does God exist? Or not? Is there life after death? Is there death after death? Is there life after death after life after death? Will these questions plague me throughout eternity? Does my existance mean anything to God or to anyone other than myself and people who I infulence? Is my soul evolving through all my trials and tribulations? Do I have a soul or am I just a mind and body? Why am asking you? None of you know. The Human experience. How tragic. How interesting. How beautiful, ugly and everything in between.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannh?user Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.
Time to die.

VB
BladeRunner fans. What can you do with them?
Lost in time like tears in rain ~VB

Like cries in wind. Have you ever screamed into a loud ocean wind? Same thing....lost.
Quote:
Originally posted by TheFallibleFiend:
BladeRunner fans. What can you do with them?
Nuttin.
Posted By: jjw Re: what the heck, why don't we all just die? - 12/16/05 01:15 AM
My favorite shorter poem title:

"Study the walls of yesterday for they hide tomorrows far away"
jw
Posted By: Anonymous Re: what the heck, why don't we all just die? - 12/16/05 06:12 AM
Does God exist? Or not? Is there life after death? Is there death after death? Is there life after death after life after death? Will these questions plague me throughout eternity?
DKV: No these questions will not plague you for eternity.
========================================
Does my existance mean anything to God or to anyone other than myself and people who I infulence?
DKV: Yes everything which exists has a meaning.
A purpose which makes you more evolved.
===========================================
Is my soul evolving through all my trials and tribulations? Do I have a soul or am I just a mind and body?
DKV: Yes it is evolving.And if you are sking the right questions then probably it is evolving in the right direction.There are some questions which are unique to Humans.
========================================
The Human experience. How tragic. How interesting. How beautiful, ugly and everything in between.
DKV: Indeed it is beautiful with all its apparent tragedies which in the end become so beautiful that you ask no questions ... You become the Answer.
Evolution. Of the soul or of the souless homosapien either way doesn't matter.

The whole idea of evolution totally comforts me because when I look around at politics and the destruction of our environment and the careless way we treat humanity. I think well, we're not the finished product here. No wonder everything's such a mess.
DKV,

What are the right questions?
Posted By: RM Re: what the heck, why don't we all just die? - 01/27/06 12:25 AM
"The whole idea of evolution totally comforts me"

If evolution comforts you you are either really ignorant or a masochist. Evolution kills the weak bodied and the weak minded. Ignorance = weak mind. Masocist = weak mind and (maybe) body (if you are a devout masocist).

To counter your counter-attack before it is made. You cannot think of ignorance as a product of enviroment. With the internet and wikipedia NO-ONE in the 21st century has ANY excuse for being ignorant.

And you moderators! When you delete a stupid post, make sure you delete the reply aswell.
"The whole idea of evolution totally comforts me"

Evolution is a cold thoughtless mechanical process with no ultimate aim - it just happens and cares for no one and no thing. It is not in the least comforting. We may have some belief that the mechanism of evolution will cause life to adapt to the future states of this planet, but that will not necessarily include humanity.

I believe in evolution - I do not have faith in evolution.

Blacknad.
Yeah...you guys totally don't get me...at all. And I think it's futile for me to try to explain how I see the world. You don't really seem interested. It's ok.

So Goodbye smile
If I wasn't interested I'd have not wasted a single keystroke on you.

But I've yet to meet you: Only your parrot. When you find your own voice please return.
Ha ha Ha, **** off bellator, if you really exist, which I doubt. Anyhoo yes we die, get used to it, have you any idea of the phenominal unlikeliness of your existence in the first place? I doubt it! It's damn, DAMN!!! unlikely!!!
We sentient beings are the fortunate few. make the most & don't take the piss. ta ta.
Dude, nobody can answer that one for you. Everybody has to find their own reason to live. I'm living so I can write a book - I love to read. My sister lives because she wants to save people - she's an EMT. If you're feeling like there's no reason in your life, maybe it's time to go find one. Some people live for God (singular, plural, any gender you choose), some for the pleasure they take in food, some for the pleasure they take in making other people happy. Some live to make life better for others through science. Cats live for napping on pillows and crunchy mice; mice live for warm burrows and sweet grass. Grass lives for sunshine and rain. Stars live to burn howling winds of particles into empty space. We're only a little more complicated than grass and mice, and in the end we all live for something, or we get depressed.

Here's a trick; there's no bad reason to live except hurting others. Anything you pick, no matter how profound or how silly, is a perfectly good reason to live.

Don't overthink it, ya know? Sometimes it's the little obvious stuff that we miss because we're so busy being smart and thinking deep thoughts.

Live to be a good person, useful to others and society, good to yourself and your family. Or live to have adventures, travel the world and see new stuff. Whatever. Be a nice guy, be an interesting jerk, be yourself.
"there's no bad reason to live except hurting others"
- Who decided that was bad?

Blacknad.
Blacknad asks:
"Who decided that was bad?"

Good question. And there are a number of possible choices.

1. A supreme being ... the one you are angling for.
2. A dictator or emporer who "is" the law
3. A hereditary heir who "is" the law
4. A legislative body chosen by the people
5. The people themselves by consensus
6. Each of us as individuals.

Each has its pluses and each its negatives.

#1 fails because of the simple fact that the supreme being seems to demand either #2 or #3 to tell us what it meant as it is too incompetent to communicate directly.

Which takes us to #2 or #3 all of which, over time, have proven beyond reasonable dispute Lord Acton's saying: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

#4 Is what is currently present in most Western nations and seems to work reasonably well.

#5 Worked in ancient Greece but unless technology intercedes seems unworkable with large modern populations.

#6 Has the blessing that in any given situation at least one person will always be happy ... and the curse that that one person may be the only one.

So having reviewed the possibilities we are left with #4 or #5 as the best we've seen before but we must also acknowledge that they only work well when those elected/selected and those electing them are well educated and have been taught a moral and ethical compass by which to evaluate their actions.

Of course the religious nuts all want to claim ownership of that compass and the right to spin it but that really just takes us back to #2 or #3 so to answer your question Blacknad ... I suggest, in fact I urge you and others, to read the writings of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Washington especially with respect to Cincinnatus and just about anything Thomas Jefferson ever wrote.

Here are a few quotes to help you on your way.

"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
~ George Washington

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are
equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."
~ George Washington

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
~ George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

I hope I shall possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of all titles, the character of an honest man.
~ George Washington

The foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing is a vice so mean and low that every person of sense and character detests and despises it.
~ George Washington

Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
~ Thomas Jefferson
... one of my personal favorites

I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too.
~ Thomas Jefferson
.. which of course won't stop George Bush

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
~ Thomas Jefferson
(just for you Blacknad)

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
~ Thomas Jefferson
.. there's one for Christian Conservatives to choke on

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
~ Thomas Jefferson

In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
~ Thomas Jefferson

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.
~ Thomas Jefferson

And there are hundreds if not thousands more where these came from.
#1 fails because of the simple fact that the supreme being seems to demand either #2 or #3 to tell us what it meant as it is too incompetent to communicate directly.

REP: God's morality is clear enough for those who wish to live by it. Those who have never read it, we are told, will be judged by the degree to which they have listened to their conscience, even if their conscience differs in the details.

For me the Ten Commandments etc. are clear enough (despite what you say about their inconsistencies). I don't think it is God's responsibility to prevent us from dreaming up the other 1000 conflicting moral systems. Either people reject him and follow one of their choice, or they accept him and follow his.


4. A legislative body chosen by the people

- Option 4 is basically morality by opinion pole. It follows behaviour and doesn't try to inform it any longer. Boston MA currently feel the need to reduce the penalty for beastiality. How long before we can expect to see 'It's a viable alternative option to straight or gay sex' in our childrens sex education classes? As morality continues to slide into the garbage bin we move ever closer to Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".

At least Christianity's morality is relatively stable, as opposed to our current relativistic muddle.

You are way too fond of quoting other's opinions as if it gives yours more credence. They simply agree with you, nothing more - it has no bearing upon whether you are right or wrong. Do you think Christians are short of significant people to back up what we think? But that would be equally valueless, a la Einstein.

Blacknad.
Blacknad wrote:
"God's morality is clear enough for those who wish to live by it."

Please refer back to your previous post where you acknowledged that this morality may well include creating smallpox and polio. Morality that includes drowning innocent newborn children. Morality that incudes genocide. You want to live by that morality?
I hope the state takes your daughter away from you for her protection.

Blacknad wrote:
"For me the Ten Commandments etc. are clear enough"

Now you've stepped in it. You don't even know the Ten Commandment's God gave to Moses. And yet you are going to follow them. Talk about the blind being led to the slaughter. I'm serious here Blacknad. You don't even know the Ten Commandments. Your religion has lied to you and if you've the nerve to post what you believe here I will prove it to you.

Blacknad wrote:
"At least Christianity's morality is relatively stable, as opposed to our current relativistic muddle."

But most of us are not Christians. Why are you so willing to force your personal morality and your personal religion on the rest of us? How would you feel if I forced you to live by my beliefs? Seems rather obvious you are taking your directions from the Osama bin Laden playbook?

Blacknad ... Einstein was a physicist. He was also a philanderer par excellance. You put up a man as a source of religious inspiration who couldn't keep his zipper up any more than Paris Hilton can keep her skirts down.

FYI: In past posts you came off as someone capable of sentient thought and as a caring person striving to find truth. Today you come off as a monster who would have felt right-at-home turning in his own family to the inquisition. What changed? Is someone looking over your shoulder or writing this for you?
Dan wrote - "Please refer back to your previous post where you acknowledged that this morality may well include creating smallpox and polio. Morality that includes drowning innocent newborn children. Morality that includes genocide. You want to live by that morality?
I hope the state takes your daughter away from you for her protection."

REP: Thanks for your concern for my daughter. However the way God acts and the way he has asked us to act are two very different things. Just as it is not the best of things to allow my daughter to drink coffee as I do, because her body is unable to metabolize it as effectively. Horses for courses - surely you can see the difference.

Dan wrote - "Now you've stepped in it. You don't even know the Ten Commandment's God gave to Moses. And yet you are going to follow them. Talk about the blind being led to the slaughter. I'm serious here Blacknad. You don't even know the Ten Commandments. Your religion has lied to you and if you've the nerve to post what you believe here I will prove it to you."

REP: Okay - I'm going to go back to your post on the 10 commandments and do the exercise you set out. I did have a cursory glance to compare the two sets, but just saw a difference in order - maybe I have missed it.

Dan wrote - "But most of us are not Christians. Why are you so willing to force your personal morality and your personal religion on the rest of us? How would you feel if I forced you to live by my beliefs? Seems rather obvious you are taking your directions from the Osama bin Laden playbook?"

REP: Come on Dan. Where did you get the idea that I wish to force anything on anyone? I am as much against this as you are. I am simply stating that there is value in Christian morality. Whether people choose to live by it is their decision. I just think that Christian morality set out by Christ and Paul makes sense.

Dan wrote - "Blacknad ... Einstein was a physicist. He was also a philanderer par excellance. You put up a man as a source of religious inspiration who couldn't keep his zipper up any more than Paris Hilton can keep her skirts down."

- The point you are making would preclude me from commenting upon religion. I am certainly not the best of people and other Christians would probably judge harshly some of the things I do and have done. I am just a better person when relating to God that when I'm not. In fact the church is full of stupid and faulty people like me - the ones who recognise a need for God. Jesus said it himself, 'it's the sick I have come for - not the well'. It doesn't surprise me that the church has such a high rate of sex offenders - these are exactly the type of people that you would expect to find admitting a profound need for God.

Dan wrote - "FYI: In past posts you came off as someone capable of sentient thought and as a caring person striving to find truth. Today you come off as a monster who would have felt right-at-home turning in his own family to the inquisition. What changed? Is someone looking over your shoulder or writing this for you?"

REP: If I felt you really knew me or really understood my thinking in entirety, then I would maybe worry about what you say here. It is possible to believe what I believe and yet still follow Christ's teaching about loving and serving one another. And that is from the personal to the communal to the global. We have no excuse to do other than treat all people with compassion on any level.

I manage a large team of people and tread the fine line between effectively managing their performance and showing compassion for them and serving their needs. I'll blow my own horn here - my team's performance and 360 feedbacks and retention rate exceeds any of my four peers. Well it's the horn of Christian principles I'm blowing really because those are the systematic principles I apply and Christ constantly softens my heart towards people. And I feel deeply if any of them suffers with anything. Not a monster.

And these are my own thoughts - nothing you have said yet has proven the non-existence of God. You have shown that there is doubt about the evidence for Jesus, but have not proven his non-existence or that there is no veracity in his recorded actions. You have, however, clearly demonstrated that you only reach God by faith and cannot figure Him out intellectually and the Christian faith is not reasonable by human standards. You have yet to conclusively prove that it should be.

I told you I should quit while you still had a good thing to think of me - I was probably right.

Blacknad.
Blacknad wrote:
"Horses for courses - surely you can see the difference."

I can not and neither can history. History has repeatedly demonstrated that people willing to take orders from god, meaning of course those that claim to speak for him, are capable of crimes against humanity.

Blacknad wrote:
"I'm going to go back to your post on the 10 commandments ... maybe I have missed it.

By a country mile. But do not parrot back the copy of the 10 big ones from what I posted. Post the ones from your personal belief and let me expose the truth of what they actually are: A fabrication.

Blacknad:
"I am simply stating that there is value in Christian morality."

I agree. There is value in Hindu morality. There is value in Shinto morality. There is value in Jewish and Islamic morality. There is value in Eastern Orthodox AND Roman Catholic morality. And yet for all of the value precisely how long have the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches been separated? How many deaths have resulted?

Do you remember the saying about practicing what you preach? Well the day the Lutherans and the Roman Catholics use that Christian morality for something other than waving around like a flag and apologize for the wanton death and destruction they caused in hundreds of years of bloody war I will start to pay attention. Talk is cheap. Where are the results?

What you are saying is no different from the heads of the Soviet Union or the PRC pointing to their constitutions and saying ... we are a free people. According to their constitutions they were. Some of us, however, looked beneath the covers and saw a horror show. That is precisely what Christian morality is. Looks great on paper. The practice however is utter nonsense and you know it.

Blacknad wrote:
"I manage a large team of people and tread the fine line between effectively managing their performance and showing compassion for them and serving their needs."

Blow your own horn if you wish. But attempting to change the subject is not allowed. Move past the rhetoric. Move to reality. The greatest integrity and peace on this planet is practiced in Colleges and Univeristies. We have never fought a war. We freely exchange ideas and meet without regard to language, religion, sexual orientation, nationality, or other prejudices. The world would be a far far happier place if we scrapped every relgious organization, sold off their trillions of dollars in holdings and used the money to educate the poor, and then let science and the scientific method be the philosophy of the future.

Do I believe scientists uncorruptable? No.
Do I believe it too would fail over time? Yes.
But it could do no worse than you and your church.

Time to take of the blinders Blacknad. Time to move past the empty words and broken promises. Your religion has not improved the quality of life on this planet. One success here ... a thousand failures everywhere else.
Bellator, I'm sorry it took me so long to read the chapter you posted a while back.
Thanks for typing it out...it really is an interesting synopsis of reality without spirituality.
© Science a GoGo's Discussion Forums