Insight Into Eye Evolution Deals Blow To Intelligent Design

The human eye is one of nature's most complex works, which Intelligent Design advocates often cite as proof of an overarching creator. But new research has uncovered the missing evolutionary link between simple invertebrate eyes and our own sophisticated vision system...

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20050822230316data_trunc_sys.shtml

Its a gossip that there is anything called Intelligent Design based on superficial criteria of finding the missing links in evolution.
A piece of Art work has beauty and astonishment in it depending upon who is looking at it.
An idiot ass or a master Peace himself.

If intelligent design was true ... how could you possibly explain Pat Robertson?

Moronic design?

Thank god you are not Pat Robertson.
There was a good chance of you becoming like him.
Wasnt that intelligent with respect you.

The human eye is a great argument AGAINST intelligent design.

I mean, come on. If a camera manufacturer designed a camera with all the wires in between the lens and the film, they certainly wouldn't be considered very intelligent. The human eye is a hodgepodge.

One should not forget that our eyes are a physical part of, and an extension of, our brain.

Hi Kate: You are #1.

Do you really think there is ANY discovery that will prove creation did not twist into it?.

JW

When you consider the design make sure that you take care of the future scenarios....
Life has goal to keep its form alive as long as possible and it decides how rapid should be the progress... what you see the wrong today will not be wrong tomorrow.
So dont criticize now wait for tomorrow.

"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centres of other like systems, these, being formed by the like wise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One; especially since the light of the fixed stars is of the same nature with the light of the sun, and from every system light passes into all the other systems: and lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other mutually, He hath placed those systems at immense distances one from another."

~Sir Isaac Newton
The Father of Physics

But stars do "fall on each other mutually", we've seen examples of matter streaming from one star to another, and from a star to a black hole. Newton did not have all the facts in his posession; What was true in the 19th century has been reversed in the 20th and 21st. Science moves onward; Newton is dead and cannot defend himself. Stop quoting dead men and look at current knowledge.

"Stop telling God what to do!" When Niels Bohr said these words to Albert Einstein it was probably in exasperation with Einstein's frequent repetition of the phrase, "God does not play dice with the universe". The latter is perhaps the most famous of Einstein's many references to religion, although "The Lord God is subtle, but malicious he is not", comes a close second.

There are many others too, but in honoring Amaranth Rose's request for censorship of 20th century truth, I will discontinue quoting the great scientists' thoughts upon which SAGG members' theories rest. Scientific materialists, who regard all forms of religious belief as superstition, are often puzzled, even embarrassed, by Albert Einstein's frequent remarks about God.

For them, Einstein's passing has not been long enough ago.

"Eye for eye"
~God

People can have scientific opinions and they can have religious opinions. Intelligent Design is a legitimate philosophy. It is not a legitimate science.

(It's only a legitimate philosophy to the extent that its promulgators are not making stupid and usually false statements about evolution or making up pretend statistics. Example: Jonathon Well's "icons of evolution" is blathering nonsense no matter how it's cut up.)

The only people who reject evolution are the ones whose "understanding" of it amounts to barbershop gossip.

Thought the following might be of interest

http://www.mr-shouty-trousers.com/Less-Intelligent-Design

Here we go again.

I have rightly been asked to keep my religious views off this site, but I reserve the right to respond when religion is rubbished.

But my question is this:

Why can't YOU keep religion off this site?

And in response - I think it is quite acceptable to believe in a creator who set up the conditions for evolution to produce an eye that was good enough - mine is good enough to see that with respect to what can be posted on this site there are some double standards.

Regards,

Blacknad.

" Scientific materialists, who regard all forms of religious belief as superstition, are often puzzled, even embarrassed, by Albert Einstein's frequent remarks about God."

Puzzled, yes. Embarrassed, no. Albert Einstein, while he denied being an atheist, also vigorously denied believing in a personal god. This and the fact that when he described the only sense in which he considered himself religious are confusing because most atheists have a hard time parsing "a belief in god that is not a personal god." Why call the sum total of natural law "God?"

Fallible Fiend,

A god who is not a personal god.

This is the belief of deists - who say that god created the universe and then smooched off to create or do something else. In effect they believe that god created it like a clock you wind up and let it go.

There is of course also Pantheism. The belief that God is everywhere and everything - and this is beyond saying that he is just the sum of natural law.

Neither of these are ideas of personal gods.

Regards,

Blacknad.

Prove that any god, of any description, exists.

Take your time.

Because when you get down I'm going to use your proof to establish the fact that the entire universe was created by an invisible purple rhinoceros.

DA Morgan wrote-

Prove that any god, of any description, exists.

REP: Of course I cannot. But I know that after a childhood of very intense child abuse at the hands of a schizophrenic step-father, including being bolted in a room for five years and unable to talk with anyone, with a bucket to go to the toilet in, I was a complete and utter mess.

At fourteen, my Mother?s then boyfriends, (she knew how to pick ?em), beat her to the point of death with a hammer and made me sit and weep for half an hour while the blood and life seeped from her. She was dead on arrival at hospital but only just as she was resuscitated and spent weeks in intensive care.

I determined to kill myself because my world and image of myself was completely fragmented and I was in more pain than many people can even imagine. So I slashed my wrist at the age of 15 and sat in a forest to die. After everything going cold and fading away and passing out, I awoke to find that somehow I had walked into school - a good distance, and they took me to hospital - I don't know if it was God that saved me and won't press the point.

But I still had no ability to live my life properly after having been socially cut off from others during my formative years, and assumed that I had done something to deserve my treatment - in fact I thought I was a piece of scum and walked around constantly saying to myself - 'you are scum - you are scum', (I don't know why I did this, I just did - but it seems so alien to me now).

So I was still determined to die.

Until I went on a church camp to Wales where I heard about God and mocked the message. Do you think I had any time for a god who had abandoned me to my fate?

But on the second night I almost zombie like, and without knowing what I was doing, asked to see a Christian leader and committed my life to God. (Please don't insult me by accusing me of being brain-washed into doing this - that would require a degree of mind control that camsouth would be comfortable with - see Satellites are hacked thread).

I believe that God took me before I destroyed myself. Why - I do not know? But my life quickly changed completely out of shape - for the first time since I was a young child I experienced happiness. For the first time I experienced wonder at the world. For the first time I began to slowly feel positive about myself and that I might have a future. In fact, as I was healed and transformed into a balanced individual who was able to engage with other people again, I began to stop thinking I was a worthless piece of crap that was only good for beating senseless and performing torture techniques on.

No one else helped me ? no one. It was only through letting myself stay in the hands of God that I am still alive. Yes ? it is sometimes senseless ? why me? Why not others? But I am not alone in this experience. It isn?t just me. It is anyone who can put their doubt and objections aside for just one moment ? just long enough to allow a creator to show himself to be real and trust-worthy.

You asked whether I can prove the existence of God. Well pretty much to my own satisfaction ? not solidly, concretely, to the point where I can never doubt, but enough for me to be comfortable with it.

And you talk about suffering and evil ? I suffered and I believe that I had evil perpetrated on me ? but I have experienced a God who restores us if we let him. And a God who has an eternity to restore those who die in their suffering if they choose it.

But a God who does not force you one way or another.

You have every right to mock me because you think I am stupid and cannot debate properly, but luckily for me, God accepts the fools as well as the wise.

And he will come in his own terms and not ours - but he will definitely not be held back by your cutting logic.

Regards,

Blacknad.

Ooops - My Mother's then boyfriend singular.

Blacknad

Einstein said he believed in the god of Spinoza, a pantheistic belief that says essentially that everything (in the universe) is god. There was apparrently some feeling of mystic serenity in feeling that we are part of nature.

I think many - possibly most - atheists feel this same thing, but they don't refer to it as god. Einstein may have believed in god, but the way in which he expressed his belief would include a great many atheists.
I don't know of many who would feel embarrassed by him. Confused, yes. Embarrassed - preposterous.

Blacknad--
Be not troubled. If the pendulum swings too far it will be given a corrective impulse or two. As long as the discussion is polite and the topic genteel there is latitude granted. When the screaming starts the hammer will drop judiciously and gently as possible. Proselytizing will be eradicated without any reprieve. I'm following this thread as I follow all threads. I read everything that gets posted. If it gets out of hand I know where the button is.

"Amaranth"

Be not troubled. If the pendulum swings too far it will be given a corrective impulse or two. As long as the discussion is polite and the topic genteel there is latitude granted. When the screaming starts the hammer will drop judiciously and gently as possible.

Amaranth, you write poetry without even trying.

Regards,

Blacknad.

Oy - Everyone,

Amaranth writes some excellent poetry.

Visit - Amaranth Rose

Read 'Crucible' and then just carry on.

Amaranth, I hope you don't mind me pointing people here, but I bet you are too modest to do it.

If you are not happy, feel free to delete the post and please accept my apologies.

King regards,

Blacknad.

Amaranth,
RE: CFIDS

"Despite years of study, there is still no laboratory marker or universal treatment for CFS" - cfid.org

In what ways do you soothe yourself and allay your bereavement? I can not imagine what this condition is like for you. What has it taught you about life, I mean how has it affected your perceptions? Do you have difficulty editing because of potential concentration problems? Will science, hopefully in the near future, be more adroit at eradicating this scourge?

Sincerely,
:rolleyes:

Is there any reason why all these God/Man/Creation/Evolution parallel discussions can't just be merged into a single thread?

Or perhaps create a subforum for them, to leave the main discussion forum for science discussion?

That would be a good idea.

Regards,

Blacknad.

Blacknad,
I wish the human race could have offered you the same salvation, comfort or enlightenment that you believe that god did. Probably our honesty about our beliefs is our only claim to serve mankind, thinking that, that honesty embraces faith, hope and charity, while still knowing it might not always be enough.

I hope you cannot imagine what it is like to be too physically weak to hold your own child in your arms and to have your mind and everything in it taken away by a capricious virus. At one point for about a year and a half I could not read or write any of the three languages I knew before I fell ill. I could barely speak for stuttering and stammering; I had a message machine answer the phone and got my mother to field calls for me when necessary. An entire very good college education disappeared seemingly into a black hole. I have gotten some parts of it back in bits and pieces, but I am not whole yet.

What has it taught me about life? Every day is a precious gift to be used to its absolute fullest. I do not wait to do any small kindness I can think of for tomorrow I may not be able to think at all. Perhaps most of all I have had to learn that every human being, myself included, has value simply because they exist. I am no longer defined in terms of my vocation, the second question everyone asks when they meet someone, as I have none. I have taken to telling people I'm a cat herder (I have five cats who love me to death) and most people don't get the joke. I had to learn that life comes one day at a time and I live my life as though each one were my last. It gives me incentive to be myself first and foremost and let the chips fall where they may.

Yes, I have difficulty concentrating. I scroll back and forth repeatedly to answer your several questions. I have learned to cope with the challenges CFIDS throws in my path; I have created many work-arounds to obstacles others would not think of as obstacles. Too weak to use the can opener today? Get something out of the freezer to eat. Falling asleep at the computer in the middle of the day? Go to bed for a couple of hours. Road trip? Take lots of caffeine and crisps along. Can't reach the top shelf in the cupboard? Get a pair of tongs or do without it. Live as though you know how and don't worry overmuch about tomorrow; sufficent to each day are the troubles thereof.

Will Science overcome this scourge? Heavens, I hope so. Only if enough research goes into finding the causes. In my case I firmly believe it is due to a viral infection of the brain; as long as I take my antiviral drug the symptoms stay suppressed; when I go off of it they return in force. I have a very good relationship with my doctor and pharmacist. They keep me sane. If research found a cure for this malady I'd be first in line for the cure, even if it were dangerous. I've been through the crucible and I've paid my dues; I'll take what I can get. I may bend, but I will never break; even when the storm is at the worst I never give up hope for the calm afterwards. As bad as things get, and I hope you cannot imagine the depths I have seen, it will pass eventually. As the Bible says, "It came, to pass" and it does pass. I live for the good days and endure the bad ones. Once in a while I get a chance to climb up on a soapbox and educate others. Thanks for the opportunity. I will now return you to your regularly scheduled Forum.

"Amaranth"

Amaranth,
Thank you kindly for your time, honesty and openness; I have learned something personal from you.
Sincerely,

Blacknad wrote:
" Of course I cannot. But I know that after a childhood of very intense child abuse at the hands of a schizophrenic step-father, including being bolted in a room for five years and unable to talk with anyone, with a bucket to go to the toilet in, I was a complete and utter mess."

You have my sympathy if the above is true.
Get professional psychiatric help.

Blacknad,
Greetings from a fellow survivor. Thanks for sharing your odyssey with us. That took courage and I want to recognize you for that. I hope the rest of your life is no worse than today. I think it gets better with time, but I've only been at it a short time as they say.

"Amaranth"

Dan,

Thanks but it is not needed, I am no longer affected in any significant way by my past.

'We are neither masters of our future, nor slaves to our past'.

And thank you Amaranth.

Regards,

Blacknad

Mung:
You are certainly welcome. If anything I said is enlightening or illuminating then I will not have wasted my time saying it.

"Amaranth"

Blacknad, science suffers at the hands of ethics. People would much rather hear something morally correct, awe-inspiring or emotion provoking than hear the real, logical truth. If I were to describe a story of a small girl witnessing her entire family skinned alive, raped and killed by a group of men, yet managing to overcome this and continue with her life, as mere patterns of electrical signals in her brain throughout her life, people wouldn't listen. This is because people deal with the level they are on and not the levels that make it up like cells and atoms and electrons etc.
People also like to believe they everything they do is something meaningful, and that there is always someone that is looking out for them or at least some one who cares for them. (This is why I think you turned to God).
What is it that makes white blood cells in our bodies go to war against pathogens? Why don?t they just save themselves? It?s because they are ?programmed? to fight, they are not thinking, it's in their nature. Why is it that so many humans believe in God? Perhaps it is this belief that helps to get individuals to sacrifice themselves for the greater cause of the planet, and to motivate them to do ?great, meaningful things?.

Though the belief in God is a cruel trick played on us by evolution, it may be a necessary one.

Believing in being part of a huge organism is at least logical. I, after trying for an unbelievably long time, still can?t understand how people can believe that God ?created? everything. He would have to already be there!!! Oh, so he was always there, was he? So, wait a minute, hold on?. doesn?t it make a lot more sense for everything to have always been there? You believers make me sick. Stop deluding yourselves! It may not be a reality you want to accept, but your only other choice is ignorance, and a very well imagined imaginary friend.

Topic, one in the eye of intelligent design.

DA Morgan, Member

Prove that any god, of any description, exists.

Take your time.

Because when you get down I'm going to use your proof to establish the fact that the entire universe was created by an invisible purple rhinoceros.

--------------------
DA Morgan

jjw, This is the oldest unanswered question. I suspect there is a god hiding behind your invisible purple rhinoceros and that it is afraid to expose its tender parts. If no one can prove the existence of god and if no one can prove the non-existence of god that seems to me to be a standoff that makes the issue moot.
Did you expect an offer of proof? Remove your rhinoceros, and see what?s there.
jjw

No one can prove that this world isn't in one big program either. So, since no one can prove this or disprove it, why bother thinking about it? Even if it is a program and I am also a program. who cares - i'm having a hell of a good time, wherever or whatever i am. Obviously there is a big difference between the belief in god and the belief in 'the matrix' so to speak, since the belief in god tells you that there is life after death and what you do in life affects your afterlife. So, those that do choose to believe are actually making a smarter choice, since there is no way to disprove it. I personally can not ever and will not ever believe in an afterlife because, even though there is no way to disprove it completely, there is overwhelming evidence that it is all a load of crap. I'll take my chances with an eternity of suffering, anyway, the human brain can't remember things for that long.