Intellectual demise of the West

Posted by: extrasense

Intellectual demise of the West - 06/27/06 01:00 PM

Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.

Not a good plan.

ES
Posted by: dr_rocket

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/27/06 04:38 PM

Nonsense! Pure and simple.
Posted by: extrasense

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/27/06 05:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dr_rocket:
Nonsense! Pure and simple.
5 star hotel aloquence smile
Posted by: peace

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/27/06 06:06 PM

science n spirituality r nt necessarily mutually exclusive

peace
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/27/06 09:32 PM

And if people would get over their "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" with religion and theology and nationality and culture and language ... and instead apply the scientific method ... this nonsense would not cease but certainly decrease.

As long as those with few IQ points but lots of adrenaline are writing the rules we will get to see contests of the Bush vs bin Laden type that benefit no one.
Posted by: dehammer

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/27/06 10:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.

Not a good plan.

ES
first off you have to define the spiritual arguement that they are supposedly winning. before you can claim they are winning it. as far as im concerned, they lost the arguement a long time ago.

thats an even worse plan.
Posted by: jjw

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/27/06 10:52 PM

Hi es:

You suggest:
"Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.

Not a good plan."

People steeped in spiritual lore can not argue with science effectively because they are traveling on different mental tracks.

If you must kill your self and others to make a point you are beyound spiritual and scientific help. You are creating a real Hell on Earth.
jjw
Posted by: extrasense

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 01:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by peace:
science n spirituality r nt necessarily mutually exclusive
I do agree with your point in principle.
However the reality is that West is sinking into the swamp of godlessness, idolatry and phariseeism, after having been for 2000 years sustained by ideas of Christianity.
Science does not show any interest in spirituality beside attempts to make it impossible.

ES
Posted by: extrasense

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 01:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jjw004:
Hi es:

You suggest:
"Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.Not a good plan."

People steeped in spiritual lore can not argue with science effectively because they are traveling on different mental tracks.
I think this is a delusion of the science.
It is not that science in principle is uncapable of the analysis of spiruality, although traditionally it fails in that.
The correct analysis of spirituality would conclude that it is like art, and can not be taken apart and still be itself.

ES
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 04:19 AM

extraNONsense wrote:
"However the reality is that West is sinking into the swamp of godlessness, idolatry and phariseeism"

And the solution, of course, is to throw away logical and rational thinking and accept on faith our saviour Jesus Christ. Thank you for clearing that up.

Who the heck needs freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and all that democracy nonsense.

So extrasense ... who decides what is godlessness? You? who decides what is idolatry? I think statues of Jesus are idols ... so lets destroy them all just like the Taliban did to the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. And phariseeism? Wow. I guess you'll have to help us all understand that one too.
Posted by: Johnny Boy

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 10:52 AM

"Spirituality" has always declined when organised religion got their way. Dogma becomes then untouchable and one is not allowed to question it in any way. Therefore one has had the Spanish iquisition, the Taliban, Osama Bin Laden, etc. Even our scientific community is succumbing to protecting scientific dogma instead of welcoming new ideas; and analysing them objectively. There can be no personal spiritual life if you are not allowed to question and to analyse. It is thus highly doubtful that Christianity has sustained us for 2000 years or that Islam is now "winnning" the spiritual battle. Christian countries at least allow their citizen's to convert to Islam if they want to. In Islamic countries you are killed when you convert from Islam to Christianity. Is this winning the battle for sprituality?
Posted by: extrasense

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
"Spirituality" has always declined when organised religion got their way.
Nonsense.
Religion have done its job.
Science is envious, since the area of spirituality escapes it.
Organized religion is only religion possible.

ES
Posted by: Johnny Boy

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
"Spirituality" has always declined when organised religion got their way.
Nonsense.
Religion have done its job.
Science is envious, since the area of spirituality escapes it.
Organized religion is only religion possible.

ES
There is no greater spiritual pursuit than to try and understand the universe by testing your ideas experimentally. As Einstein has said: "I want to know how God did it". There can be no greater threat to spirituality than to argue that some questions should not be asked. Organised religion still has a long way to go before it can compete with the "wonder of doing science". There is and never will be a greater miracle than our ability to do the latter. It is THE way to discover God.
Posted by: dehammer

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 10:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
...the reality is that West is sinking into the swamp of godlessness, idolatry and phariseeism, after having been for 2000 years sustained by ideas of Christianity.
1st off you falling under the influence of the history rewriting christian church. the majority of the word has never been christian, save in the minds of those who would rewrite history. even in the american war of independance, the majority were not chrisitan. Washington, Handcock, Jefferson, and many others were deitist, not christian, but the revisionist would have you believe that every american before 1900 was pure christian (at least all the historical good guys). this has never been the reality. While there have been periods where the goverments of many of the nations of the west were christians, and the only relegions that you could publicly claim (without getting burned at the stake for it) was christanity, that does not mean that the entire west has been nothing but christian for 2000 years, not that it was the main push for our civiliation.

secondly, you assuming the "godlessness, idolatry and phariseeism" is any worse now that it has every been. there is little difference now that it was 100 years ago, save in the writings of the christian revisionist.

Quote:
Science does not show any interest in spirituality beside attempts to make it impossible.ES
actually there are christian scientist, as well as wiccan, muslim, jewish..... infact there are few religions that dont allow science, and in many cases they are finding more and more (for those who believe) that there is something connecting it all. ill leave it to you what you choise to believe that is.
Posted by: dehammer

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 10:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
"Spirituality" has always declined when organised religion got their way.
Nonsense.
Religion have done its job.
Science is envious, since the area of spirituality escapes it.
Organized religion is only religion possible.

ES
if religions have done their job, then why are we still thinking. your not allowed to think in orgainized religion, you have to accept what others tell you without a hint of question.

if science is so envious, why are their scientist that are religious.

its possible to do anything religiously, even sin. spirituality requires an understanding, not blindly repeating what others have told you. that leads to science. understanding science and you can understand spirituality better. get locksteped into orgainized religions and you have no clue waht spirituality is.
Posted by: extrasense

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/28/06 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
religion still has a long way to go
Can science say : Do not steal?
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/29/06 05:04 AM

extrasense asks:
"Can science say : Do not steal?"

Yes it can. And yes it has. We call it game theory. And we have conclusively proven that there are strategies that lead to successful outcomes. And they correspond with ethical behaviour.

You need to understand something rather basic. Humans are biological computing machines. They may not calculate in binary on silicon. But calculate they do. Nothing more ... and nothing less.
Posted by: peace

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/29/06 09:29 AM

'you are nt allowed to think in organized religion, you have to accept wht others tell you without a hint of question'

i don't quite agree...hinduism, an ancient home-grown faith in india (it is not called a 'religion'), has no heretics to cast out, doesnot have- fixed dogmas, one book, one god, doesnot believe in forcing any one to adopt any one school of thought n is open to all faiths...

any science tht being done for good of humanity, animal, plants, earth etc is an act of spiritualism..ya frentic patenting by scientists n organizations would not fit the bill...

dehammer, this time i have written complete spellings smile , i quite agree with you here "understanding science n u cn understand spirituality. get locksteped into organized religions........"

peace
Posted by: Johnny Boy

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/29/06 02:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by peace:
ya frentic patenting by scientists n organizations would not fit the bill...

peace
Does frantic money collection by organised religions fit the bill? Remember Jim Baker's "theme park". Is the Vatican not also just a unique Italian theme park? And Mekka?

At least when scientists patent, they try and ensure that they get some credit for what they have done. If they do not patent, their work is stolen by the very pious people who actively support organised religion.
Posted by: soilguy

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/29/06 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.

Not a good plan.

ES
I don't see any evidence that Islamists are "winning the spiritual argument," nor does the West rely on science (witness the current push to have pseudo-science taught in biology classes in the US).

Fundamentalists of both the Christian and Islamic variety worship a God of the Gaps and are perturbed whenever science investigates those gaps.
Posted by: extrasense

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/29/06 08:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soilguy:
I don't see any evidence that Islamists are "winning the spiritual argument," nor does the West rely on science
Evidence? You mind is spoiled by propaganda. You are unable to see the evidence..

ES
Posted by: dehammer

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/29/06 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by peace:
i don't quite agree...hinduism, an ancient home-grown faith in india (it is not called a 'religion'), has no heretics to cast out, doesnot have- fixed dogmas, one book, one god, doesnot believe in forcing any one to adopt any one school of thought n is open to all faiths...
as you put it, its not considered a religion. faith is on thing. its based purely in spirituality. if you dont believe it, question it, then find the answers. often times that leads back to faith.

religion is based largely in dogma. your suppose to accept what your taught without deviation, no though, no question allowed.

Quote:
any science tht being done for good of humanity, animal, plants, earth etc is an act of spiritualism..ya frentic patenting by scientists n organizations would not fit the bill...
unfortuantely, not all science is good for the planet or its people. most is, but not all.
Posted by: paul

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/30/06 02:09 AM

there is only one GOD.
all else is nothing.

how can a rock make another rock?
who made the 1st rock?

where did everything come from ,
how many different religions are there?

how much pain and suffering have the people of the world endured because of religious peoples
religious ideals?

there is only one GOD.
does he want us to fight each other?
or does he want us to work together?

if you want to find the real evil you will have to look no further than in the bank accounts where the money comes from that pays for the evil.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/30/06 04:44 AM

Paul you really should get yourself a spare synapse and apply it to educating yourself.

Your first statement is pure nonsense. With equal credibility and supporting evidence I can say that there is only one invisible purple rhinoceros.

No one has ever claimed that any rock created another rock? The first rock? Perhaps you should study how stars make elements. Basic chemistry. The stuff they teach in elementary and middle school.

Where did everything come from is a red herring. A purely rhetorical nonsense question. Lets turn it around. Who made god? Where id god come from? Oh he's always existed right? Imagine that ... just like the universe. Only for small minds three letters are easier to comprehend than eight?

What utter and complete nonsense.
Posted by: J. Arthur God

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/30/06 05:25 AM

Why is this in the science forum? Isn't this "not quite science" or something else? Frankly, isn't the first post a troll?
Posted by: dehammer

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/30/06 09:12 AM

da, i hate to say this. but for once you and i completely agree.
Posted by: soilguy

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/30/06 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Quote:
Originally posted by soilguy:
I don't see any evidence that Islamists are "winning the spiritual argument," nor does the West rely on science
Evidence? You mind is spoiled by propaganda. You are unable to see the evidence..

ES
Then why don't you educate me?
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/30/06 07:33 PM

Soilguy ... there isn't enough ergot fungus on the planet for you get convince yourself you've learned anything from this troll. Don't invite the preposterous. ;-)
Posted by: soilguy

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 06/30/06 07:56 PM

I just wondered what "the spiritual agrument" was. As far as I can tell from the Islamic fundies, it involves lots of sex with virgins.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 07/01/06 06:22 AM

Well if that's what its all about where do I sign up?

Actually I don't think that is what Islam is about and I don't think that is what Islamic fundies are about. Though history clearly teaches that fundies come in four flavours.

1. Those that feel guilty about their own behaviour.
2. Those that are attempting to cover up or divert attention from their own behaviour.
3. Those that are paranoid that someone somewhere might be enjoying their life.
4. Those that are control freaks

I think civilized people could do civilization a huge favour and declare fundamentalist thinking, of whatever nature, criminal in nature and lock them up.
Posted by: Blacknad

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 07/02/06 12:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
I think civilized people could do civilization a huge favour and declare fundamentalist thinking, of whatever nature, criminal in nature and lock them up.
Be very careful what you wish for DA. You may be first in line to be locked up. If there was ever a candidate for Scientist Fundamentalist then I would say that you come as close as I have seen - probably even pipping Dawkins at the post.

You have proposed that all Fundamentalist Christians do you a favour and follow in the footsteps of the poor schizophrenic chap by being mauled to death by lions.

Seems pretty intolerant of others to me - and certainly smacks of fundamentalism. Like the Fundies you are utterly convinced of your own inerrancy.

A now you are proposing that we lock up a significant part of the population - not based upon their actions - for the vast majority have committed no crime - but simply because you don't like the way they think. A post-modern inquisition - why don't you go the whole hog and burn them all at the stake? I'm sure Uncle Al would be the first to volunteer to grease them up and light the kindling.

Blacknad.
Posted by: DA Morgan

Re: Intellectual demise of the West - 07/03/06 12:38 AM

I've no objection to intolerance.

I am intollerant of murder, rape, TB, smallpox, and stupidity. And anyone that isn't is not fully human.

There is a difference between advocacy of what can be proven and advocacy for that which is based wholly on nonsense and the brain washing of children.