Science a GoGo's Home Page
Posted By: Blacknad When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/12/06 08:35 PM
Richard Dawkins likens a murderer to a broken down car:

'Basil Fawlty, British television's hotelier from hell created by the immortal John Cleese, was at the end of his tether when his car broke down and wouldn't start. He gave it fair warning, counted to three, gave it one more chance, and then acted. "Right! I warned you. You've had this coming to you!" He got out of the car, seized a tree branch and set about thrashing the car within an inch of its life. Of course we laugh at his irrationality. Instead of beating the car, we would investigate the problem. Is the carburettor flooded? Are the sparking plugs or distributor points damp? Has it simply run out of gas? Why do we not react in the same way to a defective man: a murderer, say, or a rapist? Why don't we laugh at a judge who punishes a criminal, just as heartily as we laugh at Basil Fawlty? Or at King Xerxes who, in 480 BC, sentenced the rough sea to 300 lashes for wrecking his bridge of ships? Isn't the murderer or the rapist just a machine with a defective component? Or a defective upbringing? Defective education? Defective genes?'

- http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_9.html

I suppose most reading this thread would concur with this kind of reductionist view of humans.

In essence he is saying we should dispense with blame and simply fix a murderer or rapist as we would a car.

So the idea of punishment is a moot point - if we ever develop a quick fix for a sex offender then the fix should be applied and the matter is ended.

What happens to punishment as a deterrent - showing people there are consequences for their behaviour?

Do you agree there should be no blame, and therefore no responsibility?

Do you think that science can solve this issue, by providing a cure - like a car that needs the engine balancing; we will rebalance people's brain chemistry?

- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3007342.stm

If this does happen, can the Mother of a murdered child expect to see the murderer walk free and unhindered, after undergoing a quick fix?

If she rails against this and wants revenge, would we have to recondition her irrational thought processes as well?

Regards,

Blacknad.
Is there a difference between a defective human compelled to kill because of their brain state, and someone who kills in a calculated "sane" manner? Should all killings be considered the result of a defective mind? What about war and other such sanctioned killings? Would a quick fix pill still allow the "patient" to be able to distinguish between killings that are considered either right or wrong?
Posted By: Justine Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/13/06 02:58 PM
If the pill was available to individuals at first recognition of overt violent behavior it could prevent the crimes before they occurred.

It would be a serious decision to make by the individual and their family before they took the pill because it could drastically and irrevocalbly alter their personality. Maybe a year to six month protocal....first offering counseling and other psychotropic medication, and such with serious discussion and explaination of the pills effects.

Prisoners who accepted the treatment would have to be housed seperately from prisoners who refused. Plus, support groups and therapy following the consumption of the pill. And for a long time there would still need to be a seperate prison for inmates who have finished the treatment but still have to serve their time (punishment)

But there would be temptations.....I can think of someone in my life I'd love to slip that pill to...just to take the edge off their verbal abuse.
Posted By: Blacknad Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/13/06 08:29 PM
And for a long time there would still need to be a seperate prison for inmates who have finished the treatment but still have to serve their time (punishment)

- Justine, Dawkins advocates no punishment - that's the whole point - it is as silly (he says), as beating your broken-down car with a branch.

Why punish someone for being broken? He says, 'simply fix them'.

The real issue here is could we dispense with punishment (or justice)? If it was a five minute procedure to fix a murderer or child molester could we really envisage being true to what Dawkins says and simply let people walk away without consequences? If you accept what Dawkins says, it makes sense - but could we live with it?

Blacknad.
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/13/06 09:53 PM
Forget pills! Just kill the murderers and rapists at birth! -There's a 'rational soultion' for ya!
Then, anyone who commits a crime in-spite of this (eg. kills someone) is merely a sane person who killed someone for a sane reason. Do what you wan't with them, punish them, help them. The normal ones are not my concern. It's the bloody phychopaths that are the real issue - JUST KILL THEM!!!
Posted By: Philege Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/13/06 10:39 PM
For once I agree with Rob, those who commit capital crimes must be dealth with through Capital punishment. Bring back the death penalty! Or castrate all rapists!
Posted By: Philege Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/13/06 10:40 PM
Giff Zem Ze treetment!
Posted By: Blacknad Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/13/06 11:30 PM
Just kill the murderers and rapists at birth!

- Er, that may be a little premature. A genetic propensity to commit crime is in no way a sure indicator.

Blacknad.
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/14/06 01:13 PM
So what? Why take chances? I'm certain that if your wife were to be abducted, raped, tortured and murdered by one of these sickos you would change your views very rapidly.

If one of my relatives left me with a live, faulty grenade from some war to remember them by, I'm sorry, but despite it's sentimental value, I'd ged rid of the thing.
Posted By: Blacknad Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/16/06 09:25 PM
If one of those Sickos tried to abduct my wife at the moment it would be them I would worry about - not her. They might just possibly live to regret trying to abduct a young fiery Arab with PMT smile

Blacknad.
Posted By: Justine Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/17/06 07:29 PM
I agree with Dawkins.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/17/06 09:49 PM
Why not just give everybody the pill along with the other regular series of vaccinations in childhood? That way we could intervene prophylactically and save society much pain and anguish, not to mention time hunting down and trying murderers. What parent would refuse a treatment to insure that their child will never be a murderer or a rapist?
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/18/06 01:24 PM
I WOULD -if it were born with the right genes to make it a psycho -not that those run in my family.
What comfort is it that whether or not your child will kill someone -(for no real reason!) is dependant on pills? It is a hassle, what if they decide to stop taking them? Better just eradicate the baby before the parent can get emotionally attached.
I doubt can be such a pill that will alter your genes in this drastic way from only being taken once. But if there can be -I agree with you.

?The man I love above any man on Earth was involved in a murder. I'm awful glad he still exists.?

I am assuming this man is not a psycho. Real people that commit murders for say revenge is understandable. All I want rid of is the deranged lunatics. If this man you speak of is a deranged lunatic, then I?m sorry, but I don?t care whether you love him or not ?he is a menace to society.
Posted By: Eduardo Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/18/06 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob:
Better just eradicate the baby before the parent can get emotionally attached.
I don't think someone who continually proposes a baby killing agenda is fit to judge anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob:
JUST KILL THEM
Have you any idea how much like a psychopath you sound?
Posted By: Justine Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/18/06 02:58 PM
It would be a long time before society could adjust to not inflicting punishment for a crime.

Prisons these days COULD emphasis rehabilitation, but they are really only for punishment and segregation.
But if rehab was as easy and inexpensive as a one dose pill, I'm sure America would give it a try...but they'd still want the purpetrators to suffer some punishment for their crimes.

It would take a highly evolved individual to suffer violent crime and quickly forgive the "fixed" criminal. Even for someone higher minded...there's still the natural grief process that takes at least a year to fully comprehend what happened let alone forgive it.
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 02:09 AM
How about considering the possibility that our ancestors might have had a far more appropriate solution: Excommunication.

Lets buy Greenland from the Eskimos. If 50,000 Greenlanders can survive there then others can too. Try 'em. Convict 'em. Give 'em a sleeping bag, a ten, a knife and a parachute ... in that order.

Why is it our problem that someone can not live within society's rules?

Why is it our obligation to feed, clothe, and house them?

Why should we let them back into our society if they have proven (three strikes and you're out) that they can't control themselves?
Posted By: Eduardo Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Lets buy Greenland from the Eskimos. If 50,000 Greenlanders can survive there then others can too. Try 'em. Convict 'em. Give 'em a sleeping bag, a ten, a knife and a parachute ... in that order.
We in Britain did that already, we called it Australia.

When I went there on holiday a while ago, I was asked at passport control whether I had a criminal record. I replied that I didn't realise it was still necessary. wink
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 01:34 PM
"I don't think someone who continually proposes a baby killing agenda is fit to judge anything.

Have you any idea how much like a psychopath you sound?"

Sigh, another person blinded by the reflex of morals. First of all, let me remind you that these psychopaths enjoy brutally killing other human beings for NO REASON. They cruise around in their cars and pick out a victim thinking "that young girl would be nice to torture and then kill - eventually BWA HA HA!" Do you really consider them to be human? This is a kill-or-be-killed world and mercy for humans may be all fine and dandy -but mercy for animals and psychopaths?! Do we need them? Do we like them? Do they need our help? Well the only way to help these scums of the earth is through genetic engineering, which you as a moral person would undoubtedly deem wrong. Just as wrong as killing these sick people at birth?

No Erduado I am not a psychopath, but if I was, I would be killing your baby for fun. As opposed to killing a baby to save your baby. Don't let your first priority be morals, let it be sense.
Posted By: Eduardo Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 04:10 PM
'Sigh, another person blinded by the reflex of morals.'

Yes, what a wonderful place the world would be under your reign of amoral logic and precognitive justice.

You're right of course 'This is a kill-or-be-killed world'.
I had to kill 4 people on my way to the shops this very morning, the road was littered with ninjas and psychopaths, it's a real bind.

Do you know how psychopaths minds often work?

They transfer their violent urges onto other people, demonise them, then sublimate those urges by attacking those people, at first verbally, often using violent imagery, then ultimately physically.

Ring any bells?

'No Erduado I am not a psychopath'

That's what they ALL say.
Posted By: Justine Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 04:13 PM
This string has degraded into blind prejudice. Sociology classes anyone????? Do we need to go back to school in order have an intelligent discussion on societal subjects or can we pry our minds open a little by ourselves?

What happened to the ultimate wisdom of mercy?
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 06:34 PM
Erduardo, fine, mock my statement on a kill-or-be-killed world, it just proves how ignorant you are.

"They transfer their violent urges onto other people, demonise them, then sublimate those urges by attacking those people, at first verbally, often using violent imagery, then ultimately physically." "Ring any bells?"

May I ask how you know this?

You imply I am a pyschopath because I want them all dead? I want them all dead because they are a menace and a problem; a burden, an object of fear. There's two ways to get rid of your fears, well three;
1. Fight them and try to be victorious
2. Run away from them for ever
3. Ignore them and hope they disappear
You, it would appear seem to be on the side of these psychopaths. So you are either; a psychopath, incredibly ignorant or incredibly lazy.
I will assume that you are ignorant and therefore assume that you don't fear them because you will not accept your mortality, no human will (atheist or not). The odds are slim for you or anyone you care about to be attacked by a psycho, so you don't care. Well please, for the sake of not being ignorant, try to empathise for both the parents of the psychopath who have to hear that (through no fault of theirs) their offspring had raped and decapitated a 9 year old girl, and more importantly, empathise for the parents of the nine year old girl who through the fault of society and their misguided views on reality, have lost their daughter for ever. What are your views now?

"Yes, what a wonderful place the world would be under your reign of amoral logic and precognitive justice."

Amoral?! you are the one who is amoral my friend, you will allow benevolent humans to be killed by sadistic whackos. What is wrong with you?

The merciless deserve no mercy!

And finally,
after being subjected to your anti-human views I can clearly see that you in-fact are a psychopath. What do you have to say to that? You are not? Well, to quote you; That's what they all say.

Sorry Justine,
I just couldn't let him get away with that rubbish he was posting.
Posted By: Eduardo Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 07:37 PM
'There's two ways to get rid of your fears, well three;
1. Fight them and try to be victorious
2. Run away from them for ever
3. Ignore them and hope they disappear'


4. Overcome them with strength of character and reason.

or in your case

5. Sublimate them into a tirade of self-righteous indignation and a wild eyed lust for bloody revenge to right some imagined wrong.


'their offspring had raped and decapitated a 9 year old girl'

Own up, this is just another one of your sick fantasies isn't it?


'you will allow benevolent humans to be killed by sadistic whackos'

Good lord! Will I? I had no idea.


'The merciless deserve no mercy!'

Careful, I detect a logic spiral.


'I can clearly see that you in-fact are a psychopath. What do you have to say to that? You are not? Well, to quote you; That's what they all say.'

Ooh! How original. What wit. ( Mind you immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so thank you )
Plus a hint of talking to yourself as well (another sign).

Rob I have to ask...
Are you auditioning for the role of 'Vengeful Old Testament God' on the off chance the position might come up?

PS I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the difference between amoral and immoral.
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 10:43 PM
"4. Overcome them with strength of character and reason."

More emotional rubbish. No reason? No, you cannot write that. There is no reason behind allowing someone to sweep through a society and kill innocent people.

"5. Sublimate them into a tirade of self-righteous indignation and a wild eyed lust for bloody revenge to right some imagined wrong."

No, I am just being logical. But to defend from the other side, what is wrong with indignation? It is anger brought on by an injustice. Injustices are wrong.

"Own up, this is just another one of your sick fantasies isn't it?"

Well, it takes one to assume everyone else is one.

"Good lord! Will I? I had no idea."

Yes, you will. Thank you for once again proving your ignorance.

"Careful, I detect a logic spiral."

I am merciless, and I don't deserve mercy. But I am NOT a hypocrite.


"Ooh! How original. What wit. ( Mind you immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so thank you )
Plus a hint of talking to yourself as well (another sign)."

Ok, this is coming from someone who said, that's what they all say. Very original your-self. No, I was not flattering you, this must have been another one of your delusions. And as for that 'another sign' crap - where - ON EARTH -did you get the idea that I was talking to myself? Just go and take your pills.
Posted By: Blacknad Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/19/06 11:10 PM
From dnafiles.org -

'There simply isn?t enough information in the genome to encode the
precise detail of the connections among the hundred billion neurons in the brain. And so while genes
create the overall blueprint for each person, there is a certain amount of simply random
developmental effects in wiring up the brain. And then, the environment acts to shape and sculpt those connections.'

So there are probably no baby psychopaths to kill. So Rob, cleaning society with a war on the womb is probably not an option. Maybe you will need to wait until nursery and smoke them out then?

Rob's pre-school exam:

Please take your time and answer the following questions carefully - very carefully.

1. Do you find Humpty-Dumpty falling off the wall funny?

2. Who is your favourite - Harry Potter or Voldemort?

3. Have you ever been so very angry that you have wet yourself?....


Blacknad.
Quote:
Originally posted by Justine:
This string has degraded into blind prejudice. Sociology classes anyone????? Do we need to go back to school in order have an intelligent discussion on societal subjects or can we pry our minds open a little by ourselves?

What happened to the ultimate wisdom of mercy?
Just look upon these posts as studies of the human condition itself, Justine. It's humanity in a petri dish.
Posted By: Eduardo Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/20/06 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Blacknad:
Rob's pre-school exam:

Please take your time and answer the following questions carefully - very carefully.

1. Do you find Humpty-Dumpty falling off the wall funny?

2. Who is your favourite - Harry Potter or Voldemort?

3. Have you ever been so very angry that you have wet yourself?....
LOL nice one Blacknad

And remember kids... Failure is NOT an option.
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/20/06 11:17 AM
Funny how quickly you let go of your argument Erduardo. You seem to only be part of this debate to attempt to insult me.
And whether or not I am a psychopath will not be determined by three questions. But I do prefer Voldermort to Harry.
Posted By: Justine Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/20/06 02:58 PM
It's a serious issue and diversions into name-calling and what not are an easy distraction from the uncomfortable powerlessness we have in regards to people who are out of control. It's a lot easier to lock them up then deal with them. The same goes for people who suffer from mental illnesses. Lock them up and keep them away from us because they are completely unpredictable.
But, they are upredictable unto themselves as well, so isolating them is cruel to the humanity that dwells within them as well.
Instead of throwing them off the edge of the Earth...these are the people who need extraodinary levels of attention, education, and connection to humanity. Not to mention assistance in adhearing to medication regiment.

It's a heavy topic and thanks Blacknad for the distraction into lightheartedness...it's a burden to even ponder let alone discuss.

I read a book over the summer and I just hated the author for taking me into the mind of a psycho. The cover looked so tranquil and it was too well written to put down. It can be a sick and twisted reality for these pitiful people....but even the issue of psychopaths is just a distraction from the real deal...the common criminal who is just an average human thrust into incredibly stressful environments....growing up in families and neighborhoods where there is no where to have a simple live devoid of the influence of guns, drugs, alcohol, and abuse...no easy way out...these are the people who ride the cycle until they find themselves in jails, crack houses, whore houses, institutions, or dead...and they're really not different from you or me. (We are the lucky) Life on this Earth is not fair.
We have a lot of work to do to make it a better place to co-exist.
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/20/06 06:09 PM
Right, well here comes an obvious question;
Justine and Erduardo, If you somehow knew -for sure- that Hitler was going to do what he did, would you kill him when he was an infant to prevent this?
Posted By: Blacknad Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/20/06 09:22 PM
"And whether or not I am a psychopath will not be determined by three questions. But I do prefer Voldermort to Harry."

- Rob, despite the fact that you are often so angry, I cannot help but warm to you.

Living in a society where many seem to feel passion about nothing more than celebrity, money and sex, it is good to see how passionately you feel about things. Even though I disagree with you sometimes, I am heartened by your energetic posts.

And the three questions were not designed to test whether you are a psycho, but were designed to help you smoke out the psycho-toddlers wink

Blacknad.
Posted By: Blacknad Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/20/06 09:36 PM
"If you somehow knew -for sure- that Hitler was going to do what he did, would you kill him when he was an infant to prevent this?"

REP: Who would not despatch Hitler as a baby if we saw his future? Or at least put him on Ritalin or introduce him to soft drugs.

"Hey I had this great idea of using the National Socialist German Workers Party to establish a Third Empire on earth - but then I got stoned".


The problem is that for as much as we know at the moment, each newborn child could potentially be a Hitler or an Einstein. We just can't tell.

Blacknad.
Posted By: Eduardo Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/21/06 12:27 AM
Rob, despite the fact that you insist on callng me Erduardo with a superfluous 'r' I will nonetheless answer your query... No I would not have killed him for I do not believe in predestiny, but rather in free will, maybe I would have taken him under my wing and educated him to respect other cultures and other people... and damn it Rob, I hold out my hand to you, and if you take it, we can change the world my friend.
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/21/06 02:57 PM
Ok, bad question, considering chaos theory. I keep forgeting about chaos theory...

You believe in free will? We can discuss that on another thread.

Ok, so you, when it comes down to it, would rather attempt to help someone who is a real danger to society as opposed to simply 'removing' them. Ok, fair enough, but don't come crying to me when you unleash them upon humanity saying; 'man, what a good job I've done of that human being' -only to read in the newspaper the very next week that yet another serial killer is at large.
Personaly, I like to take the path of least resistance, it's just... natural.
Posted By: jjw Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/23/06 02:09 AM
Blacknad asked:

"If you somehow knew -for sure- that Hitler was going to do what he did, would you kill him when he was an infant to prevent this?"

I think some of our members did not take note that we are supposed to know for sure what Hitler was going to do when mature.

If, If, there was such a thing as knowing for sure, and we know this is a really tough hypo, I would be inclined to vote for drowning.

Now, that is only one solution at a time when there is going to be a lot of doubt about doing it. So, as an alternative I would amputate his right arm so he could never start that nasty salute he was so fond of- too harsh you may feel. OK let the creep live and educate him to be a little more female in his manner- he had a head start I think. Not very ddep.
jjw
Posted By: Justine Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/23/06 03:50 PM
I wonder if Hitler was drowned....would someone else just have taken his place?

If I knew Hitler's future...as a possible future that could be altered, then I would vote to nurture and educate him. Maybe he could have been a positive influence on the world instead.

If I knew that Hitler's future was set in stone if he lived...then I would vote for euthanasia at birth explaining everything to the family and gaining their consent, first. Use a gas mask to anesthetize, and then an IV euthanasia injection.
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/23/06 05:52 PM
STOP ANSWERING THIS QUESTION! It is stupid! I told you I forgot about chaos theory. The question makes no sense.
Posted By: RM Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/24/06 08:57 PM
...Not to mention the fact that time travel will never be posible. Gawd! What was I thinking?! Please do me a favour everyone, and pretend I never asked such a silly question.
Posted By: Eduardo Re: When we have a pill for murderers.... - 01/28/06 01:35 AM
You have loosened the question upon the world now... AND IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN...YOU FOOL...YOUU UTTER FOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!
© Science a GoGo's Discussion Forums