Time to step up and take a punt on what the guys at www.steorn.net are up to with their "free energy machine".

kate,

your poll is lame...

how about an option that says:

interesting, let's wait and see how it bears up under serious examination (or some such)

rather than cramming us all into arrogant authoritative snoot or radical wild-eyed fanatic categories

what harm is there in critically examining such claims (aside from preserving the paradigms)

Apologies for casting anyone as a "radical wild-eyed fanatic"!

How about the "Hey! I think it really works! Don't be so cynical!" option. Unfortunately you can't edit polls so perhaps just imagine that it says "Hey! I think it *might* really work! Don't be so cynical!"

Hope this helps you cope with the poll!

Possibly a more salient question would be:

Would you actually stake your life on the fact that the 'conservation of energy' principle cannot be violated?

Blacknad.

it all depends on what is called "free" energy. some people call wind and solar energy "free" because once your solar cells are working, it does not cost anything more. it does not cost anything to use the power of the wind itself, only the generator, supports and the windmill, etc itself cost anything.

then again, perhaps the machine is free and only the license to use it cost anything.

Think it looks anything like this?




**Be advised this an attempt at humor**

Thinking about the first and second laws of thermodynamics makes me think that this is a load of horse hockey.

Wow. Eighteen hours and 8 votes. This "democracy" stuff kicks butt!

My odds:-

79% It's a Publicity Stunt.
13% It's a Scam.
7.9999999999999% It's Bad Science.
0.0000000000001% It's Real.

PS I have probably vastly overestimated the chances of it being real. (I didn't want to wear out my zero key)

Then I'll give you one of mine: 0

It meets every criteria for not being real. Which version of fraud is all that is left to debate.

The only reason 'Steorn Company' of Ireland, has
challenged any scientists that will listen, to evaluate and test their 'Magnetic Free Energy Device'
I would suggest the reason they placed a full page advert in 'The Economist' ......a Business magazine is to get short sighted Companies to invest money in their idea.
The company, Steorn, says its discovery is based on the interaction of magnetic fields and allows the production of clean, free and constant energy -- a concept that challenges one of the basic rules of physics.
I understand that they are using a form of linear shuttering which alternately shields and releases a magnetic field?

After some thought and giving them the benefit of doubt.....I would suggest that they MAY have possibly come up with a more efficient way of generating an electric current.
The usual method is by rotating a coil within an electric field. Or even by shaking a magnet within a coil, as per an LED flashlite currently on the market.
Prehaps thair 'alternate shuttering' is nothing more than a stepped annular ring made out of Mu metal, which is set spinning, between a magnet and coil.
A mobile phone can be activated by replacing its battery with a spring loaded lever and cog that drives a rotating coil. Not that I've ever seen one.
There is almost certainly a more efficient method of generating and storing an electrical current, just over the horizon. But it wont be free to violate the conservation of energy.

The most efficient moving item that I have ever seen is the rotating pendulum that drives the incredible perpetual "Atmos" clock.

http://www.compadapt.com/atmos.html

You want to get rich? Make an existing item more efficient.

If you want efficient rotation get a politician.

Seriously ... I would be thinking cryogenics ... superfluidity.

It is true that any moving magnetic field will create an electric field. That is middle school physics.

The question is really one of what is creating the magnetic field (there must be a cost) and what is creating the movement (there must also be a cost).

My preference would be all the prisoners in all the prisons on a very large wheel. Now that would be paying their debt to society.

too bad we cant get gwb's and congress's political manuvering energy. that would power the whole world for the next few centuries.

All that hot air and no way to capture it.

Well,

it is at least as good science as quantum computing and nano robots

es

Warning. I read an article on this, but not their own web page.

This is great, if it pans out; however,
1) It seems more than likely a marketing ploy, or
2) Measurement error - you need to have the correct equipment to measure the right amount. If they're so far doing smaller amounts of energy, you could get that kind of error in round-off.

3) even IF they are getting out more than they personally put into the system, that doesn't mean there's more than what going in to the system. There is energy all around us - it could be this device is tapping into that energy. (If this works with small amounts of energy, it may or may not scale.)

In Feyman Lectures on Physics - I think first or second chapter he gives a really good explanation involving blocks. I *strongly* encourage you guys to look it up. (The explanation is duplicated in 1st chapter of H. C. Van Ness's book "Understanding Thermodynamics".)

That is, even if the device does what they claim it does, it's not clear that it's actually violating the 1st law. Yes. I'd stake my life on the first law being true.

re #3, i believe ive read of a small engine (very small) that works on the principle of warming gas expanding and cooler gas contracting. If memory serves its used in clocks and things. you personally dont have to add a single bit of energy, but the changes in room temperature from day to night is enough to wind its spring. If i remember correctly (its been decades) someone suggested having something simular to build a huge facility to get the difference in the air and water to drive electric generators. Obviously nothing ever happen with it. Likely someone with a little bit of understanding of physics and engineering came along and found the problems with it in short order. This is likely to be as close to perpetual motion as well ever see.

Did you read my earlier thread posted on this subject? If not go back and read. (on how the Atmos works)

I am including another interesting fact here, not generally know, but it might interest you.

Take a 10" copper disc, at least 10" diam, (larger
gives more output)
Just spin it.....it develops electricity, no magnets. or any other items required!

Maximum output from central shaft, and circumference.
Amaze your fiends, have fun.

does that work off the planets magnetic field?

Correct! Grin.

Every body wants to knock any claim bordering on perpetual motion; and I wonder why? We know it flies in the face of physics as we know physics but is current knowledge always so perfect to crush new concepts?

Based upon our own mortality we are living in the heart of a perpetual motion machine. How perpetual must something be to impress us? Can we agree that a clock that ran for 2 years on ?free? energy be a step forward? How about 20 years? How about 20 million years? As obvious as my point is we seem to ignore what is closest to home. There should be no bars to efforts at new discoveries. If such bars truly exist they will demonstrate them selves whether ?it has been written? or not. Cheers.
jjw

if you want to override something like the laws of energy, you must be ready to show major work on how it is wrong. just building something and calling it perpetual motion is not going to work. Its one thing to say that something works off the cycle of the planet, or from earths own energy source, or from wind or temperature differences, but a completely different thing to claim its from "free" energy.

I guess I must think that the Sun's energy is "free". Try to forgive me.
jjw

the sun's energy may be free, after you have made the solar cell. that unfortuantely makes it not quite free.

Dehammer:
I do not think we should converse on these items.
i have watched your conflict with DA and at times I thought you had some thing to say and at times I was not of that mind.

What you or any one else does with sunlight has not one iota fact of whether the sun produces free energy for us earth people. You, as is your style at times, find fault with what others are saying because you, as in this instance, are confusing an energy source with the USE of an energy source. This means we are wasting time in such exchange. We seem to be on different wave lengths- yours may be better!
jjw

you talk of perpetual motion, then add about free energy. yes the sun does send energy our way, as does the magnetic field of the earth. Yes we can use them free, after we build something to use it. that does not make the solar powered device perpetual motion, because it requires an input. I would love to be able to use the free energy the earth and sun gives us, but alas, im not rich enough.

im afraid i was not able to switch gears fast enough to see where you were going with that earlier post.

Whats New by Bob Parks at UMd:

4. PERPETUUM MOBILE: "ALL GREAT TRUTHS BEGIN AS BLASPHEMIES."
This is the slogan of Steorn, a Dublin company that is assembling
a jury of scientists to evaluate a device using moving permanent
magnets to produce free energy. WN has exposed so many of these
devices in the past that it gets depressing. So this time we
examined the slogan instead. It's from George Bernard Shaw's
Anajanska [1919], but the full quote must have been been lost.
We've found the full quote: "All great truths begin as
blasphemies, but all blasphemies do not become great truths."

Erich:

Well done. When people get excited about their work and discoveries there is an honest error present for exeggeration. It may not be evident but I try to be brief here. This may deter full developement of ideas.

Please do not think that I favor perpetual motion or for that matter that I have some back pack against it. My point is simply that if truth demonstrates such claims are unfounded the failure of the claim will be very apparent even when we do not crush the thought out of hand. I favor giving all new ideas a fair hearing and, if bogus, they will commit a self distruct.
jjw

[quote]giving all new ideas a fair hearing[/qoute]What about honest hearing?

es

I wonder why this thread stays up top.

It stays up top because of the symbol at the beginning of it that results when you press the "feature topic" button at the bottom of the forum.

Amaranth
Moderator

Ah ... very good.

Not sure why I need to have another rant at "Steorns Free Energy Machine"
Prehaps because everyone would like to believe in it, but very few publicly dis-own it, and throw it out like dirty water.
Prehaps its because this modern 'dream maker' paid a ?10000 ($19000) for a full page Advert in the Economist.
Have the public become starstruck by the high profile publicity company he employed?
Safe in the knowledge that the UK does not even look at Free energy machine Patents.
Or prehaps its because he has 18 backers for his project. Non of whom seem to have any credentials,
apart from money?

See their names here-
http://www.steorn.org.uk/members.htm

Other Companys are suddenly appearing out of the woodwork like- www.magneticpowerinc.com
I mean lets face it...were it true, the owner of the idea, would become as rich as Croseus, or at least the richest man in the world. Everyone would love to ride on the gravy train.

Nalthough Steorn cant patent his device in the UK or the USA... he can patent the seperate parts that go to make up his machine.
I believe this is one patent attempt-

http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2006/08/another_steorn.html

Today there was a photograph of Steorn excecutive Sean McCarthy together with the TESTING RIG for his Companys Perpetual motion machine.
Prehaps thats where he and the the world will realise his mistake. With his super (110%?) un-efficient Test Rig, that has not been set up properly.
Test rigs for large conventional motors etc are usually required to drive very large heavy flywheels, in a start/stop mode, plus all the ancillery measuring equipment.
Why have a test rig?...just let the Free energy machine run and run forever!
Oh I forgot, its better to say you have a test rig
it gives future backers the idea that it will produce large amounts of power!

Further more Steorn asserts that his Free energy machine can be scaled up to drive cars, trucks and boats, all by setting up a series of magnetic fields in a certain way, and moving a magnetic object thru the field, you get an energy kick, apparently from nowhere.

Lets hope when his 18 backers get red faces will refrain from doing the same to their dream-maker.
Hohum Yawn,
http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx

Here is a proposal that can work:

Maxwell\'s demon through the looking glass

If the second law is to be violated it will probably be only at the nano scale, involving the Casimir effect and/or Van Der Waal force.