Science a GoGo's Home Page
Posted By: DA Morgan Greenland's Melting - 08/11/06 05:42 PM
Data from a US space agency (Nasa) satellite show that the melting rate has accelerated since 2004.

If the ice cap were to completely disappear, global sea levels would rise by 6.5m (21 feet).

For the rest of the story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4783199.stm

To see if your city will be underwater ...
http://www.geo.arizona.edu/dgesl/researc..._old.htm#images

In other news:
Mount Kilimanjaro's Glacier Is Crumbling
Source:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0923_030923_kilimanjaroglaciers.html
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/11/06 09:23 PM
the major problem with this is that they ignore the fact that the ocean and the ice covered lands are on top of a sea of magma. right now the weight of the ice is pushing down on the land which pushes the magma from underneath the land to underneath the sea. as the ice melts, the land gets lighter and the sea gets heavier. that will push the magma from under the sea to under the land and push the land up.

the result is that the sea will get deeper, the sea lvl to the areas of ice covered lands will actually drop and probably rise a fraction of the predicted.

the thing is that it has happened before. even if it does rise the entire 6 meters, is it really going to have that great effect on anything. in America a few rich people will lose some of their wealth. in places like India where a lot of people live next to the sea, they will move inland. its not like its going to happen overnight. the amount of land that will be lose will not be that great. in fact most of it will be land that was created by rivers dumping their sediments into marshes which, once they are underwater will once again begin to grow from the sediments.

as far as Mount Kilimanjaro's glacers are concerned, dig a little and youll find evidence of their appearing and disappearing mulitple times in the last million year. when the area dries out, the glacers disappear, when they get wetter, they reappear. that areas has had many times of major drought in the past
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/11/06 10:56 PM
dehammer wrote:
"in America a few rich people will lose some of their wealth."

If that is your definition of the loss of New York City and a substantial fraction of Florida I guess you're partially right ... the problem being, of course, that the rich people will move out and sell the land to the middle-class who will become poor people. The "rich people" won't be hurt.

dehammer wrote:
"dig a little and youll find evidence of their appearing and disappearing mulitple times in the last million year."

This may come as a shock to you but there were no humans with cities and economies during the "last million years" except for the last few thousand. That the fishes will get a bit more territory is not reason to be concerned. Could you at least pretend you care about the people in South Texas even if you don't care about the rest of the planet.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/12/06 07:03 AM
actually i do care about them. i care a lot about the poor people that will have to find other poor homes to live in.

did you really pay attention to those maps that you gave or did you once more just give a link without checking it out first. very little of new york will be put under the water, even at high tides and even if the sea raise the full 6 meters. in case you don't know the areas that are at risk in new york is mainly the docks and warehouse districts. the poor part of the city is well above that level. the part that will be at most risk is some of the high-rise areas, mainly because many of them have underground parking spaces, which will then be below sea level. the garages are not built to remain underwater. by the time the rich people will see any reason that they should move, their homes will not be worth near as much. a few people will sell their homes before its too late, and the prices crash. but they will be the exception. how would a middle class person be able to afford the rich home unless the price drops first. but then the people in the barrios and such would be able to afford them. its really not the poor of new york and Florida and places like that, that need your concern. a large part of India live in the lower land. they will be force to live more in the sea than they do now, or move inland. fortunately it will not be a fast occurrence, meaning that the people will have time to move. unfortunately, what it will likely take is a typhoon ripping thought that area, and that is where the lose of life will come from, not the raising sea. it will just make the typhoon worse.

as far as the shores of south texas, florida and new york, most of that is owned by the rich. they will bitch and moan how the rising sea is costing them millions and demand that the goverment spent billions to fix the problems. after living in houston and that area, i found few people in the middle class that could afford a beach front property. by the time you get far enough away to make it affordable, its well above the high water mark for a 6 meter rise.

like i pointed out, even if the ice does cause the sea to become 6 meters deeper its would not mean that the sea level would be that much higher on the land.
Posted By: Zythryn Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/12/06 03:48 PM
Quote:
like i pointed out, even if the ice does cause the sea to become 6 meters deeper its would not mean that the sea level would be that much higher on the land.
If I understand your statement, you are correct. At some beaches on the east coast a one foot rise will erode about a hundred feet of beach.

I don't know the answer to this one, but am curious. How high would sea level need to go to reach a subway entrance in NY?

Even if everyone affected in the US was 'rich' (which I disagree with) that was directly affected, it would still be an economic catastrophe.

weather rich or poor, displacing large numbers of people causes hardship. In countries in southeast asia the numbers of people displaced is staggering.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/13/06 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Zythryn:
If I understand your statement, you are correct. At some beaches on the east coast a one foot rise will erode about a hundred feet of beach.

I don't know the answer to this one, but am curious. How high would sea level need to go to reach a subway entrance in NY?
im afraid i dont have the answer to that. one thing to consider though, those entrances are relatively small. i really believe that there would have been some consideration of how high the water might get. those areas nearest the beaches would be on softer sandy ground, which you could not build a subway though. they are likely to be higher. also it would be easier to put something around them (likely sand bags at first, and concrete steps later) to stop storm surges. likely the first things to have problems would be the sewers and storm drains.

Quote:
Even if everyone affected in the US was 'rich' (which I disagree with) that was directly affected, it would still be an economic catastrophe.
again, its a manner of how fast it happens. considering that they are talking about this happening over a century, it would not be that catastrophic. nor did i say they would be the only ones affected, just the vast majority would be the rich sea shore owners. they would find their homes losing value year after year. not that much, just continually over 2 or 3 generations. the real problem with the land would be the lost of wetlands. at least until the rivers made new ones.

Quote:
weather rich or poor, displacing large numbers of people causes hardship. In countries in southeast asia the numbers of people displaced is staggering.
yes, those in se asia would be the ones that suffered. part of my problem with the way da made the statement is that he seem to be saying that america would be the hardest hit and would suffer most. Its india that would take the greatest damage.
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/14/06 03:48 AM
dehammer wrote:
"very little of new york will be put under the water"

Yes I did. I've also seen the full scale ones at the local NOAA office. Just one thing ... when you say "New York" are you referring to the state or the city? The city will not survive.

And not because most of it isn't more than 18' above the hudson river. Rather because the bridges, tunnels, and other infrastructure would be unstable and cease to exist. Manhattan is an island dehammer: An island.

dehammer wrote:
"they will bitch and moan how the rising sea is costing them millions and demand that the goverment spent billions to fix the problems."

On this you are correct. Perhaps you forgot who it is that is paying those taxes. Or should I say paying the interest on the money borrowed since we are currently trying to max out the country's credit card.

BTW: The average elevation of New York City is 10 meters. That is only 12 feet higher than the 6 meter rise expected if Greenland melts.

Source:
http://www.bycitylight.com/cities/us-ny-new_york-facts.php

And please pay attention. The 6 meters is JUST Greenland. If Greenland melts it will not do so in isolation. There will also be melting of arctic sea ice, Scandinavian ice, European ice (the Alps), and antarctic ice.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/14/06 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
dehammer wrote:
Yes I did. I've also seen the full scale ones at the local NOAA office. Just one thing ... when you say "New York" are you referring to the state or the city? The city will not survive.
perhaps ive misread the maps, but every map ive seen shows that only part of new your city is on the islands of manhattan and staten. also by reading the map that you pervided it showed that a good part of the city would survive a large (6m) increase in sea level.


Quote:
And not because most of it isn't more than 18' above the hudson river. Rather because the bridges, tunnels, and other infrastructure would be unstable and cease to exist. Manhattan is an island dehammer: An island.
notice that instead of saying 18' above sea level you said 18' above the hudson river. the river flows down hill so it is not the measuring stick that should be used. its sea level were discussing here. lets stick to that. where the bridges and tunnels are less than 6 meters above sea level, they would require some thing to make them more useable or rebuilding. if this would happen in a matter of hours, or even a few days, then there would be major problems. what were discussing is over a century or at least 50 years by all accounts that you have shown. most of them say 1 cm a year rise in sea level. at that rate, those bridges will be destroy by time long before the sea takes them out. or perhaps a hurricane will cause them to have to be rebuilt.

Quote:
BTW: The average elevation of New York City is 10 meters. That is only 12 feet higher than the 6 meter rise expected if Greenland melts.

Source:
http://www.bycitylight.com/cities/us-ny-new_york-facts.php
again notice the word average. that means if there is some at sea level then some of it is at 20 meters. that is considerable higher than 12 feet.

Quote:
And please pay attention. The 6 meters is JUST Greenland. If Greenland melts it will not do so in isolation. There will also be melting of arctic sea ice, Scandinavian ice, European ice (the Alps), and antarctic ice.
yes and if the scandinavian ice melts, the land will rebound by rising up as the weight of the ice is transfered to the ocean where it will push the magma under the land. same with antartica and europe. IF the ice were to melt in one year, then we'd be in big trouble since the mamga would not likely more as fast. with it spread over a century, then the magma will compensate, and push the land higher compensating for a lot of that ice melt, if not all of it.
Posted By: John M Reynolds Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/14/06 02:21 PM
"Data from a US space agency (Nasa) satellite show that the melting rate has accelerated since 2004." -- DA Morgan

Just a question... why did you pick 2004? Greenland has been affected greatly by a volcano that erupted in 1992. If you compare today's rate with 1991, we are still in better shape. How sure are you about your data and your conclusions? Without examining that first, all the hoopla about rising sea levels and which cities will get wiped out is pointless.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/14/06 10:50 PM
J M Reynolds,
You can edit your own posts by clicking on the paper and pencil icon.

Just a suggestion.
Amaranth
Posted By: Wolfman Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/15/06 07:19 AM
Greenland melting may not connect with the Average Joe, the scope is to great, the event too protracted. In 1997 I did the trek up to the top of Mt. Kilimanjaro. It takes three and a half days to reach the top, a day and a half to get back down. the group I was in was very fit, we pushed the ascent so we could watch the sunrise from Mount Uhuru. Along the way, you pass these glacier faces. They aren't as big as the ones you see in the Canadian Rockies or Finland, I guess, but they are impressive in their own right. Anyway, on the way down we hit a gravelly spot where the face of the glacier had collapsed. Huge boulders of ice, some as big as a School Bus, had come down covering an area of about four acres. We had passed this spot less than 36 hours earlier; if we had been there, we'd have all been killed. As it turns out, the glaciers had been melting at a vastly accellerated rate for the previous five years. The ice shelves were only 15% as large as when they were first surveyed, back in 1912 or something. Also, as the glaciesr melt, the dust inside the ice becomes more and more prevalent, making the glaciers darker and causing them to melt even faster. A microcosm of the Polar Caps, if you will.

That's an unforgettable trip, BTW, if you get a chance, if you're ever in East Africa,(Tanzania)go for it. I paid $105 back then. I understand the trip costs close to a grand these days. Insurance?
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/15/06 09:10 AM
there is a major difference between kilimanjaro and greenland. that mountain ice cap comes and goes with the humidity of the region. It has disappeared and reappeared many times before. the largest contibuter of its loss is the loss of forest, largely due to accidents from the bee farmers trying to smoke out bees. Also as the lake nearby shrinks (as it has many times before) there is less humidity to create clouds to protect the ice. in addition when its dryer there is more dust to help melt the ice.
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/15/06 03:59 PM
dehammer wrote:
"notice that instead of saying 18' above sea level you said 18' above the hudson river. the river flows down hill so it is not the measuring stick that should be used."

When sea levels rise they back up rivers and the rivers rise. Or did you miss what happened to the Mississippi during Katrina? Perhaps it was too small and insignificant to noticed in Texas. ;-)

dehammer wrote:
"yes and if the scandinavian ice melts, the land will rebound by rising up as the weight of the ice is transfered to the ocean where it will push the magma under the land."

And since there is no permanent ice to melt on the Atlantic seaboard of Gulf of Mexico that land won't rebound will it?
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/15/06 04:03 PM
John Reynolds asks:
"Just a question... why did you pick 2004?"

I didn't. I found an article interesting and posted a link. If you find something referring to a different year feel free to add it to this thead or create one of your own?

Pick 2004? Do you think I control the national reseach agenda?

John Reynolds wrote:
"If you compare today's rate with 1991"

And the supporting evidence that this is true is where? What source or you quoting? Can you provide a link or is this just your personal opinion?
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/15/06 04:20 PM
Thanks Wolfman.

Every five years or so I visit the Columbia ice field in the Canadian Rockies between Banff and Jasper. I first visited the glacier field in 1963.

There is now a sign in the middle of a field of glacial rubble marking where the location was in 1963. It is a very long walk from there to where the ice is today.

It is a very long sad walk.

Not that it is melting. Climates change. But the degree of melting within the scope of a single human lifetime ... very very sad.

This link illustrates it reasonably well.
1942:
http://www.visualsunlimited.com/browse/vu439/vu439597.html
1970: http://www.visualsunlimited.com/browse/vu439/vu439595.html
1992: http://www.visualsunlimited.com/browse/vu439/vu439593.html
2000:
http://www.visualsunlimited.com/browse/vu439/vu439592.html
Posted By: John M Reynolds Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/15/06 05:39 PM
Below are two paragraphs and a link to the article I was referencing:

- - -

Crackpot is not a term anyone could reasonably use to describe Petr Chylek. He's an adjunct professor in the department of physics and atmospheric science at Dalhousie University, and a past senior chair in climate research at the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada. A specialist on the subject of the Greenland ice sheet, he certainly does not believe global warming is caused by CO2 generated by human activity, though he is willing to admit that, in the scientific community, scientists who oppose the hysteria are still in the minority. "But if you look at the scientists who dissent, really, these are the leaders in their fields," he says confidently.

Chylek is particularly upset with the way global warming supporters have been misrepresenting data to support their cause. For instance, in An Inconvenient Truth, Gore claims that between 1992 and 2005 the melt area of Greenland increased drastically. This is technically correct, Chylek says. But Gore fails to mention that a volcanic eruption from Mount Pinatubo in 1992 caused temperatures to become depressed all over the earth; the years following were naturally warmer. "He's comparing 1992 with 2005," says Chylek. "If he would compare 1991 with 2005, he would find that the Greenland melt area in 1991 was larger than 2005. So he just picks the special year 1992, when the melt area of Greenland was very, very small due to the Mount Pinatubo volcanic eruption. And this lets him show and pretend that this difference between 1992 and 2005 is due to global warming and that's completely untrue," Chylek says.
- http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=print.print_article&article_id=1864
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/15/06 10:04 PM
John Reynolds wrote:
"Crackpot is not a term anyone could reasonably use to describe Petr Chylek."

Actually it is. And he has been called that by his peers. Here's just one example from Colorado State University.

And yet there was Los Alamos National Laboratory climate scientist Petr Chylek last week, standing before a gathering of his colleagues to explain that Greenland isn?t actually warming.

What gives?

Chylek is a dissenter from the scientific mainstream. While most scientists think greenhouse gases are responsible for changes already seen in Earth?s climate, Chylek believes the ?data are inconclusive.?

?You really cannot say for certain what is causing current climate change,? Chylek said in an interview.

Source:
http://climatesci.atmos.colostate.edu/index.php?s=global+warming&submit=Search&paged=2

So yes he IS considered, by most in the field, to be a crackpot.

A better question would be whether there any among his peers agreeing with him. The the answer is a few ... VERY VERY FEW.
Posted By: Wolfman Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 12:48 AM
De Hammer:
Kili's Ice Fields vanish and reappear in the normal course of events? Perhaps you don't appreciate what I saw - MASSIVE chunks of ice covering an area the size of three Football fields, that weren't there yesterday. I just logged onto a couple of related sites - One photographer had the same experience as us in 2003 except the wall fell while they were in sight of it! He has photos to prove it. On the other site, it looks like it's a foregone conclusion that the ice will all be gone by 2020. A colleague of mine made the trip in June of 2000, BTW, and his group saw nothing like that. But don't be surprised if they close the trail for being too risky.

As far as the Glacier vanishing and reappearing, core samples indicate thet the ice is 11,500 years old, coinciding with the last Ice Age. What sort of time frame did you have in mind?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 02:43 AM
Wolfman,
Could you post the links to the sites you report on? It would be most interesting to be able to review them.

Thanks.

Amaranth
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 04:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
So yes he IS considered, by most in the field, to be a crackpot.
show me in that quote where the person wrote it called him a crackpot. they did not as far as i could see. they said that he is a dissenter. nor is he the only one. ive given you links before to others, all of whom you indicated were not acceptable for reason that had nothing to do with the person. one i remember you said was not acceptable, because the people that owned the site was of the wrong political party. another you claimed was not acceptable because the people that owned the site it was posted on were paid by the oil industry (which was actually incorrect, as all of them were former employees of the oil industry, not current. the fact that the people that made the post were scientist who's studies were not paid for by the oil company was not even discussed. in another thread i gave you several post about different people who claimed that it was not sufficently proven what was the main cause.

the point is that there is a cycle to things that causes the ice to melt away and return. trying to claim that the melt is due only to mans polution is wrong. its no better than the scaremongering going on in the tabloids.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
When sea levels rise they back up rivers and the rivers rise. Or did you miss what happened to the Mississippi during Katrina? Perhaps it was too small and insignificant to noticed in Texas. ;-)
perhaps your are too far away to realise that those rivers were under the level of the sea during that hurricane. there was no way for the water to get out because the sea was coming in. also during a hurricane the sea is being pushed inwards and the water from the rivers are being pushed back by the wind. under normal conditions the water from the river would still flow into the sea with no problem. only during a hurricane would they be concerned with how high the rivers were.

Quote:
And since there is no permanent ice to melt on the Atlantic seaboard of Gulf of Mexico that land won't rebound will it?
actually if i understand the physics of the difference in weight, the additional weight of the water all over the world will push more magma under the unchanging weight of the land. it will not rise much, but it would do some. the thing is the weight of all the water in the area will push the magma under Greenland up as much as the ice is if not more. there will not be that much change. according to the link you posted, a 6 meter increase in the depth of the ocean will mean about a meter or less rise in the sea lvl. this over most of a century.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfman:
De Hammer:
Kili's Ice Fields vanish and reappear in the normal course of events? Perhaps you don't appreciate what I saw - MASSIVE chunks of ice covering an area the size of three Football fields, that weren't there yesterday. I just logged onto a couple of related sites - One photographer had the same experience as us in 2003 except the wall fell while they were in sight of it! He has photos to prove it. On the other site, it looks like it's a foregone conclusion that the ice will all be gone by 2020. A colleague of mine made the trip in June of 2000, BTW, and his group saw nothing like that. But don't be surprised if they close the trail for being too risky.

As far as the Glacier vanishing and reappearing, core samples indicate thet the ice is 11,500 years old, coinciding with the last Ice Age. What sort of time frame did you have in mind?
i believe the time-line they were using involved geological indicators for about 1.5 million year, during that time, they indicated that there were approximately 14 periods (if my memory is not mistaken on this, i was actually looking for some place they might be able to put an electromagnetic launcher) that the ice had appeared then disappeared.

also, just as a point of fact, technically, we are still in an ice age, just in interglacial period of one. as long as there is ice on Greenland, and ice in the arctic, and ice in Scandinavia, then we are in an ice age. this is actually the longest ice age in about a half billion years or so.
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 04:54 AM
dehammer asks:
"show me in that quote where the person wrote it called him a crackpot."

Ok.

Go to google.com

Put in the following search criterion:
"Chylek" and "crackpot"

Now do the same thing at fazzle.com.

At fazzle the search will return 414,079 matches.

How about the other search engines too?

I'm amazed you couldn't do this yourself.


But PhD's are generally more generous in their language than to engage in name-calling at that level. But if you are in a university environment you will find it not uncommon to hear comments such as this:

"Thank you for sending me a copy of your book; I'll waste no time reading it."
~ Moses Hadas
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 05:52 AM
ok, i tried that and you know what i found. not scicntist saying he was a crackpot, but scaremongering journalist trying to make anyone who did not agree with them sound bad. do they argue with the facts he raises? no. they ridicule the thought that the sun could have had any effect on the changes we are seeing.

perhaps you should check this out for some more understanding of why some people dont believe the polution is the main factor in the global warming.

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

heres a quote that might help

Quote:
"If 'ice age' is used to refer to long, generally cool, intervals during which glaciers advance and retreat, we are still in one today. Our modern climate represents a very short, warm period between glacial advances." Illinois State Museum
heres something else i think will show why some people are skeptical about it. there is a graph of the tempature of the last 100 years on this site that shows that while the tempature has risen, it has also fallen. max was an average of 54.8 in the 1930's and the lowest average was 49.8 in the 1910's. this data came from the national climate data center, noaa. its well established, but the scaremongers dont want it published very much.

in fact most of the links appear to have been to forum where people who are not scientist, are saying that he is a crackpot or that someone else is, but listing his name in the same post. if you had bother to check out a few of them that were not forums you would have found that Chylek was not always the one being called a crackpot. some of those actually agreed with him.

as to him standing on his own on this, check this quote out.

Quote:
Over seventeen thousand scientists, including over 2600 climatologists, geophysicists, meteorologists, oceanographers, glaciologists, atmospheric physicists, environmental scientists etc whose fields of scientific expertise relate directly to studying the mechanisms underlying climate dynamics; also thousands of biologists, phenologists, physicists, chemists, biochemists who study the effects of climate on biota and natural cycles, signed what is called The Oregon Institute (of Science and Medicine) petition protesting against global warming alarmism. http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm
from http://www.nightshadebooks.com/discus/messages/53/3622.html?1149192155
Posted By: Wolfman Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 07:57 AM
Hit this:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0923_030923_kilimanjaroglaciers_2.html
for the photos and a good story.
Go to http://earthquakeobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages.ph?img_id=10856 and follow up until you get to "Glacier Retreat". Prepare to be shocked, I sure was. It didn't look the way Hemingway descibed it when I saw it, but today, it's a downright dirty shame.

My trip was something I'll never forget. You know how you bond with total strangers during an experience like that? Everybody except myself was from Europe. I brought along a mini photo album to show people I met in Africa what life in Samoa is like. We slept on the ice field our last night up, it was Feb. 21, a Huge Full Moon. At just after 3:00 AM we made the final ascent, it was so bright you didn't need lights. We just about jogged all the way, we were scared we'd miss the sunrise. Just before the Sun rose, we saw Jupiter and Venus, almost in conjunction, just over the Sun on the Eastern horizon. They were in Superior Conjunction, on the far side of the sun, but at that altitude they were still very bright. It was indescribable, people were crying. We had a Swiss couple with us on their honeymoon, I thought they wanted to conceive a baby up there! Some (including me) had brought champagne with us.

Looking at these Satellite photos, however, it appears that those days are gone for good.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 08:38 AM
im glad you were able to enjoy it while its there. the world is constantly changing. it will likely disappear for a while then return one day. in the mean time, i suspect there will be other things to delight those willing to take the risk, time, and money to find them.

one major problem i have with that first link is that it claimes the global warming effect started in the 20th century. it started 18000 years ago.

the second link did not work for me.
Posted By: Wolfman Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 08:50 AM
My Architect buddy from Honolulu was there in '03, I think it was, and they could still see ice in all directions once they got on top of it. But they were only on ice for something like 3-4 hours. He said there's a big "dish" in the center of the field. It's not the "Exotic,Bucolic" experience it was back then, either. Restrooms, Barbeque Pits and Huts have been erected along the route, and they passed several groups going in the opposite direction along the way. What's next? A Quality Inn?

Try punching Glacier Retreat on your Search Bar.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 11:11 AM
everyone wants to experience it before its gone. even if half the experience is artificial.
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 03:15 PM
dehammer wrote:
"ok, i tried that and you know what i found. not scicntist saying he was a crackpot, but scaremongering journalist"

You read all 414,079 posts? Which speed reading class did you take?

If you can't understand that scientists referring to someone as fringe means crackpot then I can't help you but perhaps this can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crackpot
Posted By: John M Reynolds Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 03:51 PM
DA Morgan, what is the difference between fringe and leading edge? Should we have continued to believe all those scientists that agreed that the world was flat? Or is it okay that we listened to the fringe who were on the leading edge who proved the general consensus to be wrong?

"But even if everyone agreed that global warming was something to worry about, would that necessarily make the theories that it was caused by cars and factories, any more legitimate? Does consensus equal truth? Not a chance, says Carter. "There was once a scientific consensus that the earth was flat, and that witches should be burned at the stake," he says. "Science is not about consensus but about empirical data, tested hypotheses and rational argument."

And given all the portentous environmental theories of the past--from DDT dangers to the ozone hole--that supposedly enjoyed scientific consensus at one point and yet turned out to be baseless (see sidebar for some more unfounded panics of the last century), it's not surprising that so many of us are unwilling to believe shaky scientific theories, even when they're held by a large number of scientists. Eventually, we figure, this disaster, too, will pass. And if there's one thing we do know with certainty, it's that, before long, there will surely be another to take its place." -- http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=print.print_article&article_id=1864
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 06:23 PM
JMR:
your link did not work for me. All I got was a header and my print program came on. Any explanation?

Thanks,

Amaranth
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
dehammer wrote:
"ok, i tried that and you know what i found. not scicntist saying he was a crackpot, but scaremongering journalist"

You read all 414,079 posts? Which speed reading class did you take?

If you can't understand that scientists referring to someone as fringe means crackpot then I can't help you but perhaps this can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crackpot
did not have to read them all, all i had to do is look at the links. the great majority of them said "forum". when i did the search with a block on forums, there were very few (i believe 60)

no, fringe does not mean crackpot. crackpot in science is usually someone that does not have a clue what is going on and claims to be an authority on it. hmmm, wonder if i could get away with making a comparison. likely not. guess i will be good and not.

there are several fringes, most of them are likely to be unsuccessful in proving their point, but some of them are still valid. how about the wright brothers. they were on the fringe until Kitty Hawk. when was the last time you heard them called crackpots.

oh, the quote from that link is

Quote:
Pejoratively, the term Crackpot is used against a person, subjectively also called a crank, who writes or speaks in an authoritative fashion about a particular subject, often in science, but is alleged to have false or even ludicrous beliefs.
until it is proven false, he is not a crackpot. considering the other evidence against those who are pushing the theory of 'only man made global warming', i think it would not be wise for them to do any name calling.

edit: i tried that link and if you take out the "page=print.print" it will take you to the index and not bring up the print program.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfman:
Hit this:

Go to http://earthquakeobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages.ph?img_id=10856 and follow up until you get to "Glacier Retreat". Prepare to be shocked, I sure was. It didn't look the way Hemingway descibed it when I saw it, but today, it's a downright dirty shame.

This link did not work for me. Do you have another?
Posted By: John M Reynolds Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 07:24 PM
Here is a link to the article without the print:
http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=article&article_id=1864

I like the print version since it is all on one page. I am registered, so I can see it no problem. If you don't want to register to see the article, here it is:

- - -

Global warming meltdown
Kevin Steel - Monday,31 July 2006

It's not just your imagination: global warming devotees are getting shriller in their calls for action. Al Gore, in his new movie An Inconvenient Truth, warns us we now have only 10 years left to fix the climate change problem. That's quite a bit shorter than the 50 to 100 years many were predicting barely a few years ago. And, in defending his film, Gore has publicly said that the debate on global warming theory "is over in the scientific community," and all those who continue to question it are "on the lunatic fringe." Here in Canada, the Sierra Club calls skeptics "crackpots." The federal Liberal party is noisily calling for the resignation of the environment minister, Rona Ambrose, because she dared to state the obvious, that this country cannot meet its Kyoto targets. And while the Conservative government has insisted that the Kyoto greenhouse gas reduction targets set by the former Liberal administration are unattainable (something that federal natural resources bureaucrats had concluded, even under the Liberal government, according to documents obtained by the National Post), the federal government's National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy produced a study on June 21 suggesting Canada could cut its emissions by 60 per cent by 2050, 10 times the amount required by the Kyoto Protocol. Meanwhile, in June, Quebec announced it would introduce a carbon tax--one way for the government to cash in before the global warming theory falls apart completely. There seems to be an air of, well, desperation out there.

Tim Ball, a climatologist and former professor at the University of Winnipeg, has been fighting environmental hysterics for more than 30 years--he proudly reminds people he fought the global cooling theory popular in the 1970s--and he's noticed this desperation in global warming theory adherents. "Their positions are getting so extreme. Gore says there's 10 years left," Ball says. "Well, [David] Suzuki said there's 10 years left--the problem is he said it 20 years ago. So people are saying, 'Hang on a minute.'"

The other big indicator is that global warming adherents have all but given up on "global warming" as a term. "Now it's 'climate change,'" Ball says. That, says Ball, allows proponents to say that any change at all in the weather is the fault of humans; if it's getting warmer, cooler, wetter, drier, this is all part of the same process. "When it was just 'warming,' they got stuck because the earth has been cooling since 1998, even though CO2 from humans has gone up. And what was it that Huxley said? 'The bane of science is a lovely hypothesis destroyed by an ugly fact.' So they switched to 'climate change' and they fall apart there because the climate is always changing, always has and always will," says Ball.

So is support for global warming theory on the wane? Not if you ask John Bennett, senior policy adviser for energy at the Sierra Club in Canada. "Despite the politics in Canada, we've been getting lots of positive response to our outrage with the government. The latest polls I've seen show that support for Kyoto is still in the 80s and 90s [per cent]. So I'm really convinced there has not been any change in the public will on this, but we do have problems with political will," Bennett says. And what does he think of the growing number of respected scientists who are now stepping forward to challenge the theory itself? "These guys are just crackpots who are just fronting for those who have an interest in the fossil fuel industry. But there is nothing they have to say that is credible whatsoever," he says.

Crackpot is not a term anyone could reasonably use to describe Petr Chylek. He's an adjunct professor in the department of physics and atmospheric science at Dalhousie University, and a past senior chair in climate research at the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada. A specialist on the subject of the Greenland ice sheet, he certainly does not believe global warming is caused by CO2 generated by human activity, though he is willing to admit that, in the scientific community, scientists who oppose the hysteria are still in the minority. "But if you look at the scientists who dissent, really, these are the leaders in their fields," he says confidently.

Chylek is particularly upset with the way global warming supporters have been misrepresenting data to support their cause. For instance, in An Inconvenient Truth, Gore claims that between 1992 and 2005 the melt area of Greenland increased drastically. This is technically correct, Chylek says. But Gore fails to mention that a volcanic eruption from Mount Pinatubo in 1992 caused temperatures to become depressed all over the earth; the years following were naturally warmer. "He's comparing 1992 with 2005," says Chylek. "If he would compare 1991 with 2005, he would find that the Greenland melt area in 1991 was larger than 2005. So he just picks the special year 1992, when the melt area of Greenland was very, very small due to the Mount Pinatubo volcanic eruption. And this lets him show and pretend that this difference between 1992 and 2005 is due to global warming and that's completely untrue," Chylek says.

Chylek can't help but be amused at the accusation that those who oppose the global warming theory are shilling for the oil industry, he says. In his entire career, he has been supported by governments, not once receiving a penny from industry.

If anything, the increased shrillness of global warming theory devotees may be a sign of scientific weakness, says Chylek. "What is very discouraging is that many people who strongly support global warming caused by carbon dioxide are trying to suppress scientific discussion," he says. Legitimate scientists welcome challenges that test their theories. They can help make a scientific argument stronger. "You have to think about it [the opposition], discredit it eventually, and then go forward. But if you try to suppress dissenting opinion, it shows that you are really weak in your positions," he says.

But, in many cases, Canadian scientists had little choice but to toe the line of the previous federal Liberal government. Environment Canada transformed into a church of global warming theory, and researchers looking for funding were frozen out unless they signed on to the official dogma. "Obviously, if you are against the measured direction pushed for by governments, it will slow down your professional progress," Chylek says. "You will have difficulty at university getting tenure, you will not be getting grants, et cetera." But he says that friends of his, who have since retired, have come clean with doubts about anthropogenic global warming. "So now they say, 'Now I am retired; now I can say what I really think,'" he says.

Tad Murty is one former government scientist now speaking out about flaws in the global warming science. Murty retired from his position as a senior research scientist in meteorology and oceanography at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in 1994. A specialist in storm surges (tsunamis, hurricanes, et cetera) he is now an adjunct professor in earth sciences and civil engineering at the University of Ottawa. Currently, Murty's leading an international scientific team that includes the United Nations and the Canadian Weather Service, in the preparation of a storm surge manual following the Asian tsunami. He doesn't adhere to the global warming theory at all. "I really do not see any evidence that humans are influencing, through carbon dioxide emissions, the global climate," Murty says.

So, the supposed scientific consensus on global warming may be breaking down (on June 22, a U.S. National Academy of Sciences panel officially debunked environmentalists' long-held claim that the Earth is the warmest it's been in a thousand years). But what of public opinion? "I am not convinced that global warming alarmism has ever received the support of a majority of people in the major western democracies, despite the best efforts of the various interest groups, abetted by the surprisingly uncritical complicity of the press," says Bob Carter, a professor of the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University in Australia, and an opponent of global warming theory.

The polling data backs up Carter. The BBC World Service released in January the results of a poll on the most significant events of 2005. The survey of 32,439 people in 27 countries asked, "In the future, when historians think about the year 2005, what event of global significance do you think will be seen as most important?" The war in Iraq and the Boxing Day tsunami in Asia came out on top, both at 15 per cent. Global warming trickled in at three per cent, behind the London bombings (four per cent) and just ahead of the avian flu (three per cent). The Pew Global Attitudes Project, a worldwide public opinion survey of 90,000 individuals, released results on June 13, and found "no evidence of alarm over global warming in either the United States or China--the two largest producers of greenhouse gases. Just 19% of Americans and 20% of the Chinese who have heard of the issue say they worry a lot about global warming--the lowest percentages in the 15 countries surveyed. Moreover, nearly half of Americans (47%) and somewhat fewer Chinese (37%) express little or no concern about the problem."

But even if everyone agreed that global warming was something to worry about, would that necessarily make the theories that it was caused by cars and factories, any more legitimate? Does consensus equal truth? Not a chance, says Carter. "There was once a scientific consensus that the earth was flat, and that witches should be burned at the stake," he says. "Science is not about consensus but about empirical data, tested hypotheses and rational argument."

And given all the portentous environmental theories of the past--from DDT dangers to the ozone hole--that supposedly enjoyed scientific consensus at one point and yet turned out to be baseless (see sidebar for some more unfounded panics of the last century), it's not surprising that so many of us are unwilling to believe shaky scientific theories, even when they're held by a large number of scientists. Eventually, we figure, this disaster, too, will pass. And if there's one thing we do know with certainty, it's that, before long, there will surely be another to take its place.

A HISTORY OF FREAKING OUT:

In 1841, Charles Mackay published his famous and enduring work on mass hysteria, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. A century and a half later, the moral of the book still offers a useful lesson to modern readers: popularity and truth don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Not that anyone listens to Mackay. In fact, if the English poet and journalist were alive today, he'd easily have a steady diet of material to put out an updated edition every year. He could even fill an entirely new book with all the doomsday hysteria, environmental and otherwise, the world has endured over the last half century. Here are just a few of the frights we've seen come and (unfailingly) go.

ALIEN INVASION: In 1938, Orson Welles broadcast on radio a reading of H.G. Well's sci-fi novel War of the Worlds. It caused mass panic in New York and New Jersey when many mistook the stories of alien invasion for fact. Thousands fled the cities to escape the extraterrestrial attacks.

DANGEROUS DDT: In 1962, Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring kick-started the environmental juggernaut by twisting science to argue that synthetic pesticides, particularly DDT, were ruining our ecosystem (she claimed DDT made the shells of birds' eggs thinner). With ominous chapter titles, such as "And no birds sing" and "Elixirs of death," Carson offered a powerful, emotional argument that led to the banning of DDT in most countries. Her book has since been debunked by scientists (though that didn't stop Al Gore from writing the introduction to a 1994 reissue), but not before the bans on DDT (which had been effective in killing malaria-carrying mosquitoes in Africa and Asia) led to the preventable malaria deaths of nearly 90 million people, mostly children--so far.

GLOBAL OVERPOPULATION: Like the DDT scare, fears that the Earth would be overrun with more people than it could ever hope to sustain began with a book. Paul Ehrlich's 1968 The Population Bomb predicted mass starvation and environmental disaster, as the world ran out of food and was swamped with garbage. In the nearly 40 years since, the world's population has nearly doubled, but, by and large, food production and global standards of living are the highest they've been in history.

A NEW ICE AGE: Before everyone started worrying about global warming, they were worried about global cooling. The theory that the oceans would turn into skating rinks reached its apex in the 1970s.

In the July 1975 issue of International Wildlife, in an article entitled "In the Grip of a New Ice Age," Nigel Calder, former editor of New Scientist, wrote: "The facts have emerged, in recent years and months, from research into past ice ages. They imply that the threat of a new ice age must now stand alongside nuclear war as a likely source of wholesale death and misery for mankind."

ACID RAIN: Once mankind averted the next ice age, by doing absolutely nothing about it, we realized, in the early 1980s, the real imminent and catastrophic danger: acid rain, from the sulphur dioxide in car exhaust, manufacturing emissions, et cetera. Kids were driven to nightmares over all the lakes and trees that would be scorched by toxic raindrops. Eventually, researchers--and time--would prove the doomsday predictions wildly overblown.

THE OZONE HOLE: Before we had time to breathe a sigh of relief over the end of ice ages and scorched earth fears, humans had a new apocalyptic threat with which to contend. In the early 1990s there was suddenly a huge hole in the ozone layer over Antarctica and we were told that we'd all soon develop skin cancer. Actually, it wasn't quite so sudden: scientists noticed it on satellite images as early as 1979, but panic set in when it appeared to grow, right around the time that Mount Pinatubo, the Filipino volcano, erupted in 1991, spewing chlorine into the atmosphere. Still, westerners readily accepted responsibility for the stratospheric rupture. Based on misinformed media hysterics resulting from two inconclusive and unsupportable press releases from NASA, we blamed our decadent modern air conditioners, Styrofoam and hairsprays for releasing chlorofluorocarbons, which supposedly harmed the ozone layer. In 1992, U.S. Congress passed laws demanding industry phase out chlorofluorocarbon use. Yet, between 1996 and 2001, the hole in the ozone kept growing. Then in 2002, it started to shrink again. And after that it grew. Turns out no one can say with any certainty what's going on.

GLOBAL WARMING: Take the fears of a new ice age that pervaded the 1970s, replace "global cooling" with "global warming" and you've got the world's hottest new fear: that too much gas production--from car emissions to industrial processing--has created a layer of insulation over the earth, making it into one big greenhouse. There are too many potential flaws in this theory--and it remains a theory--to go into here. One is that the largest period of greenhouse gas growth occurred during the industrial boom between the 1950s and the 1980s--the period in which we were told temperatures were dropping dangerously. Meanwhile, official U.S. National Climate Data Center thermometers show that, between 1998 and 2005, the earth cooled slightly. Fears of a new ice age, anyone?
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/16/06 10:36 PM
A website whose lead story is:

"Some may consider prostitution immoral. But is it moral to keep it illegal?"

Is not my idea of where to go for science news.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/17/06 07:25 AM
considering that few places are willing to post a theory that says basically "there is not danger, dont worry" where else are you going to go to read it. most places that post news want things that make people worry. they have no interest in posting articles that says "there is nothing to worry about, move on". you have a history of attacking the site owners rather than discuss the articles that are posted on those sites. Is THAT your idea of scientific discussion.
Posted By: John M Reynolds Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/17/06 12:48 PM
The Western Standard is a news magazine. It presents the other side of the story that we in Canada don't get from the Main stream media. That article on prostitution that you sluffed off has to do with "violence against prostitutes--and even the serial murder of prostitutes." I guess you are for that eh DA? The fact that a news source has other types of articles other than just scientific should not allow you to close your mind.

The scientists in Canada get funding only if they research in support of the current fad of the day. In this case, it is Greenhouse gasses. The article you did not read is a story about scientists who are speaking out against global warming now that they have retired and are free to speak their minds. They no longer have to worry about funding from the government. THe article cites several sources. Attack those sources if you can, not the messenger.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/17/06 12:54 PM
sorry, john, da has proven that it does not matter what the sourse is or the subject matter is, if the presentation is not by his standards there is nothing there to discuss. opps sorry for the large pools of sarcasm laying around this post.
Posted By: Andy Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/17/06 03:36 PM
I've come to the conclusion that I don't understand global warming studies at all.
I know it's utterly idiotic to look at the local weather the way some people tend to do (ie: It's hotter this year than last year! GLOBAL WARMING! Or This winter is colder than last winter! TAKE THAT GLOBAL WARMING!), so I try to look at a long period of time.

So, I looked at the last 100 years, which really in the grand scheme of things isn?t nearly old enough to see an actual trend. No 100 year estimate I've ever seen actually promises that the temperature readings they've taken are representative of a GLOBAL temperature change, because that's vital to good data on global rather than regional warming. I didn't have high hopes for that, considering 100 years ago I somehow doubt there were satellites in space taking readings.

Not to take away from your article, apparently Greenland is melting at a pretty good clip; at the very least Greenland looks like it?s getting warmer, now and in very recent history. It?s a bit amusing that they have an estimate on how high the ocean would get if ?the trend continues?, which I can only assume they meant all the ice melts away and Greenland becomes a tropical paradise with pretty birds and palm trees, when if that happened I would expect Canada, Russia and the poles would have melted by then as well, making that little number from Greenland pretty inconsequential. I understand it?s simply to dramatize the finding, hit the emotions of the reader and make it stick in people?s brains. I just find it funny to think about it to its logical conclusion.

So. I don't understand it at all. I don't understand the confidence with which the arguments are presented when everyone acknowledges the fact that we only started looking a few years ago. It seems strange that so many things on this planet take a ridiculously long time to happen, and yet we expect the last 30 years of research to tell us conclusively that we're ruining everything.

There's quite a powerful political influence on the topic as well. There are those who will simply NOT ACCEPT any argument presented, period, on both sides of the issue and those are the ones who have the public eye. I think that political influence is making it harder to see real science vs junk science in the issue.


Here's a nifty chart: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/images/anomalies.gif
Just nifty, although it doesn't say how the temperature readings match up to an actual "global temperature."

Thanks for reading.
Posted By: DA Morgan Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/17/06 05:13 PM
John Reynolds wrote:
"The Western Standard is a news magazine."

I know what it is. I live two hours drive from the Canadian border and spend a lot of time in the lower mainland.

See if you can find it in a science magazine.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/18/06 04:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Andy:

Here's a nifty chart: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/images/anomalies.gif
Just nifty, although it doesn't say how the temperature readings match up to an actual "global temperature."

Thanks for reading.
unfortuantely that chart only goes back a short ways. it does not show the fact that it is near the end of the little ice age (which coincidently, coincides exactly with the last large solar minimum). it does not show the tempature of things during the last solar maximum. at that time things were about 1 degree hotter than they are now.
Posted By: John M Reynolds Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/18/06 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
See if you can find it in a science magazine.
The article I referenced quoted scientists. What is the problem with that? Did you even read the article?
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/18/06 06:34 PM
jmr, who is that post directed to?
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/24/06 02:56 PM
Quote:
If the ice cap were to completely disappear, global sea levels would rise by 6.5m (21 feet).

Im at apx 30 ft above sea level this means that I will not need to travel so far to get to the beach then.

something good can be found if you look for it.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/24/06 03:00 PM
Quote:
Im at apx 30 ft above sea level this means that I will not need to travel so far to get to the beach then.


think of the gas I will save in beach travel expenses also this should decrease my contributions to global warming.

greenland isnt a seperate entity when it goes or is going there will be the antartic and artic ice going also so when I consider all the melting ice I find myself needing a boat if I want to stay in this same location.

I think it is an apx 60 ft rise total.

I always wanted to live in the mountains it was just that it would be so far to travel to get to the beach , maybe this will solve that problem.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/24/06 03:31 PM
actually it would not rise that far. the heavier weight on the sea floor would push up the land a little bit. some, such as greenland will be pushed up a lot.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/28/06 02:56 AM
Quote:
actually it would not rise that far. the heavier weight on the sea floor would push up the land a little bit. some, such as greenland will be pushed up a lot.
the earths crust below the sea floor in most places other than along the edges of the plates is relatively thick upwards of 50 - 100 miles thick.
unlike the now ( due to global warming ) thickness of the earths crust under the yellow stone national caldera ( park ) - less than 3 miles thick...

I am not certain about the stress factors of solid rock but I presume that it is something like 3,000 psi such as concrete but probably even higher.

you can stack 1 foot in height of water and only get .0361 psi per inch. = 12 * .0361 = .433 psi

so a 60 ft rise = 60 * .433 = 25.99 psi

I could support that with a properly folded tissue paper...

not to mention or take into consideration the extra coolness of the bottom of the ocean floor due to the extra depth of the water...

which should by all means translate into a even thicker crust...

have you even considered the depth of the mid pacific / atlantic oceans when the moons gravity is pulling it outwards which causes the high and low tides.

just how much of a buldge does that translate into?
could it be as much as 60 ft?
or more?
Im not sure and its late I'll check later.

this buldge happens 2 times everyday...
does the land heave up and down everyday?
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/28/06 05:29 PM
your talking about one inch. how about the extra weight on the entire ocean. that gets a good bit more weight. Add to that that the weight of greenland would be dropped by several times as much per inch.

http://www.awi-bremerhaven.de/Publications/Huy9999a_abstract.html

as you can see from this one, the ice is currently pushing the bedrock down as it gets thicker in the interior. The bedrock on the outer edges is rising due to the decrease in ice on the fringe. It appears to me that people discussing the melt off of greenland, fail to mention that the interior is getting thicker. the ice is between 250 meters and 1400 meters. exactly how much weight stress do you think this causes.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/28/06 06:52 PM
I believe that you are mixing things up just a little.

greenland sits on top of magma.
magma is supporting greenland.
if greenland becomes lighter then the supporting magma will push greenland upwards slightly.

it is not only that the water weight on the ocean floor will cause greenland to rise it is that greenland has become lighter , the ocean is vast and water seeks its own level so the small amount of rise in greenland due to the water released from the melting ice into the oceans will be
relatively miniscule compared to the rise from
the upheaval of the supportive or load bearing structure in this case the magma under greenland.

heres a simple experiment to show what will happen.

get a large bowl.
and a large balloon.
stretch the balloon over the bowl.
place a single ice cube in the center.
pour water on top of the balloon.

let greenland melt...
what happened?

I believe that the balloon will push upwards.
even if the water is removed as it melts.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/28/06 08:20 PM
now you do have me mixed up.

first you say that greenland will not raise because of the weight of the water on the seabed and the loss of that same weight on greenland.

then you say it will.

this is what ive been saying all along. The heavier ice on greenlands interior is pushing it down now, but when it melts the water will add to the weight on the sea floor, and the loss of weight of the ice on the land combined will cause the land of greenland to rise. I beleive the same will happen at the south pole too.

something to consider about the people that are concerned about the arctic ice shelf melting. ice is not as dense as water, but the weight of the ice above the sea, causes much larger amound of water below to be replaced by ice. when the ice above the water melts, so will the ice below the sea. ice increases in size about 9 percent. only about 10 percent of it is above sea level, which means that when it ice sheets melt, the resulting water will take up the same or less space. the colder the ice, the more space it takes up (on this im going on what i remember, but have not seen the data- i could be wrong here).
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/29/06 02:15 AM
excuse me if I confused you.

I didnt say that greenland would not rise , I said that the weight of the water would not really cause greenland to rise.

Quote:
this is what ive been saying all along. The heavier ice on greenlands interior is pushing it down now, but when it melts the water will add to the weight on the sea floor, and the loss of weight of the ice on the land combined will cause the land of greenland to rise. I beleive the same will happen at the south pole too.
the weight of the extra water would be exerted evenly throughout the oceans floors.
thus any pressure derived from this extra weight upon the oceans floors would be exerted evenly to the underside of the earths crust to such a small degree that the rise to greenland would be miniscule compared to the rise due to the loss of greenlands weight.

we can expect a little more volcanic activity due to the extra pressures.

Quote:
something to consider about the people that are concerned about the arctic ice shelf melting. ice is not as dense as water, but the weight of the ice above the sea, causes much larger amound of water below to be replaced by ice. when the ice above the water melts, so will the ice below the sea. ice increases in size about 9 percent. only about 10 percent of it is above sea level, which means that when it ice sheets melt, the resulting water will take up the same or less space. the colder the ice, the more space it takes up (on this im going on what i remember, but have not seen the data- i could be wrong here).
your right that is why ice floats on water.

it isnt really the melting of the ice sheets that will cause a major sea level rise.
it is the ice that is supported by the ground that we are mostly concerned with.

melting of ice sheets can actually cause a sea level drop.
once they are gone and serious melting of the ice above ground takes hold then we will begin to see distinct sea level rises.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/29/06 05:17 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by paul:
it isnt really the melting of the ice sheets that will cause a major sea level rise.
it is the ice that is supported by the ground that we are mostly concerned with.

melting of ice sheets can actually cause a sea level drop.
once they are gone and serious melting of the ice above ground takes hold then we will begin to see distinct sea level rises.
this is the first time that ive heard anyone that talked about global warming from that point say that it would not cause a rise in sea level. that has been a hot topic here before.

the thing about the land rising after the ice melts, is that it will do so from the pressure of the magma underneith it that magma will come from somewhere. with the weight of the water increasing the pressure on the magma there, it will try to move somewhere. with a low pressure in one area and a high pressure in another, the magma will move in the general directions of from the sea to the land. The result would be a dropping of the sea bed by few meters while the land under the ice would rise several hundred meters. The result would be that the sea would rise a small amount.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/29/06 08:25 PM
"with the weight of the water increasing the pressure on the magma there, it will try to move somewhere. with a low pressure in one area and a high pressure in another, "

If all the ice on the earth melted in 1 year
and flowed into the oceans , the melted water would dispence evenly to the oceans.
there would not be a high and low pressure area applied to the magma concerning the added weight to the earths oceans.

the added pressure to the magma will also be distributed evenly.
if greenland rises due to its loosing weight then it only does that due to the supporting magma
and that rise will be proportional to the pressure of the magma exerting its force to the underside of now less weighing greenland.

all hell will break loose ( literaly ) if the supporting magma is incapable of moving greenland.

and that hell may occur anywhere where there is less resistive force to meet the magmas pressures.

or it may thrust greenland up all of a sudden when resistance is less than force , when the rock breaks or gives way to the force of the magma.

think of the earth as a balloon and the magma as the air in the balloon , if you keep pumping the balloon with air it will burst at its weakest point.

that will most likely be along the fault lines or plate lines.

or volcanoes or very weak old volcanoes and calderas.

spooky...
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/29/06 08:36 PM
dehammer:

I've noticed you try to generalize things localy instead of backing away from what you are looking at and getting a more complete picture of the subject.

I noticed this when you try to reduce the number of galaxies , and your thoughts of what greenland will do , greenland is just a part of the earth that is above water it is attached to a massive plate , a part of the earths crust.

try looking at the whole picture not just the pixels in question because if 1 pixel changes then the whole picture has changed.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/29/06 11:48 PM
If the ice melting in one year then yes the magma would not be able to move with any hope of reaching greenland. but it will not melt in one year, it will melt (if it does at all) over a century). Each year the weight will grow a little bit more in the ocean and the weight will grow a little bit less under greenland. this will create a small bit of difference between the pressure on the magma under the ocean and the pressure on the magma under iceland. Since magma is a liquid, it will move from higher pressure to lower pressure. This means that each year a compairatively tiny amount would move from the indian ocean to the pacific, and a little bit more would move from the pacific to under the us (which has not changed) and the same amount would move from under the us to the atlantic, and then a good bit more would move from there to underneith greenland.

here is an test. take a fairly large space (such as a kiddy pool, and fill it with water about half way. seal it with a tarp or piece of plastic large enough to go all around. now fill the top of the pool with water, and put sand in places like the continents of the world, including greenland. Once its stablized, measure the hight of the water. take a picture of how the water is on the land. then take some of that water and freeze it and put in on top of the area named iceland. what you will see is the ice pushing the sand called iceland down and the rest of the place where the land, and oceans are, up. then watch as the ice melts. if you can see the water below, as the ice melts it flows underneith the lighter area, and away from all the other areas. now the weight of the water will make the areas the water covers heavier, which will make the water below that (seperated by the plastic sheet) go more than the areas under the land that did not have the ice. There will be some change in the hight of the water to land, but most of the difference of the weight will push the other water forcing it to go under the area that had the land and ice.

as far as the part about the galaxy, you need to read that again. I did not say there were fewer of them, i said that if god only wanted to give us light in the darkness of space, he could have made more stars nearby. I said there was no need to have more distant galaxies since by the time we could hope to reach them, all the stars would have died of old age, as would all their decendants. What is the use of distant galaxies if we cant learn anything from them. Science is not about god. nor has astronomy proved his existance. better read that thread again.

In otherwords, im not the one that is not looking at the big picture.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/30/06 12:28 PM
Dehammer:
If you need a little visual help with your subject matter then here it is.
If greenland becomes lighter then the magma will be pressing upwards on the entire plate not just on the part under greenland.
notice the position of california on the graphical representation / tectonic plate map.
if your not sure where greenland is on the map then it is inside the light brown section of the map located between the two green sections and slightly to the right of top center as you look at it.

If the plate rises where greenland is
then what would happen where california is?

if you have any type of mental visualization capabilities then you should have no problem with this.

If not take a 12 inch by 12 inch by 1 inch thick board , fill your bath tub with water , float the board on the water , place ice cubes on one end of the board.

this will represent present day positioning of the board in reference to the water.

this will represent present day positioning of the tectonic plate in reference to the magma.

now let the ice melt.

what happens to the positioning of the board relative to the water?

now that I have backed you away from your localized focusing , you can visualize what I am sudgesting to you.




  • If the ice melting in one year then yes the magma would not be able to move with any hope of reaching greenland.
  • pressure on the magma under iceland.
  • This means that each year a compairatively tiny amount would move from the indian ocean to the pacific
  • what you will see is the ice pushing the sand called iceland down and the rest of the place where the land







have you browsed for tectonic plate activity in iceland lately?

have a look.

the plate cuts iceland in half.

///////////////////////////////////
as far as the part about the galaxy, you need to read that again. I did not say there were fewer of them
////////////////////////////////////
I never said you said there were fewer of them this is what I said.

  • I noticed this when you try to reduce the number of galaxies



what I was (((( TRYING )))) to do was show you how you localize things.
ie...when you should be looking at the entire plate you are looking at only greenland.

also I may have disturbed your cognitive powers by sudgesting a balloon , the earths crust is hardened " ROCK " not a balloon or " SAND " as you choose to use as a reference.

Dehammer: think about dense , density.

--------------------
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.
--------------------

I think I understand what you mean by your footnote now , and once again you are localizing.
If man would "LEARN" then he would "KNOW".

If a man is resisting "KNOWLEDGE"
then he is resisting "LEARNING"
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/30/06 04:03 PM
your problem is that you think of a plate that is so solid it does not change. (like a board). but in reality it does. one area, esp one one side of it, can rise while the rest drop, or not move. The plates are not completely solid, instead they are like playdo: they stick together but they can flex. when rock is under the kind of pressure that the plate is under, it is almost like a liquid. Its still solid, but not as solid as rock on the surface is.

perhaps you can explain why the land under the fringes of greenland are moving up, while the land under the interior is dropping. read that link i gave about greenland earlier. it says its already been proven to be happening.

you missed the quote that i gave completely.
man has learned that the everytime he answers a question, it poses a several more questions. that means that the more that he learns (as a race, not an individual), the more he finds that he needs to learn.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/30/06 06:04 PM
Quote:
perhaps you can explain why the land under the fringes of greenland are moving up, while the land under the interior is dropping. read that link i gave about greenland earlier. it says its already been proven to be happening.
OK..

heres a good reason.

greenland ice has melted many times in the past.
I expect than underneath the ice there are old channels where water from melted ice once flowed as the old ice melted.
these channels were completely frozen but now
these channels are reopening and becomming mushy as the ice and the ground temperature is warming and melting or preparring to melt and flow once again.
the mushy ground underneath greenland is being pushed aside by the weight of the land and the ice inland of greenland.

the reason the land along the fringes as you call it is rising is because the land beyond the fringes is not mushy.
and this not mushy land provides a resistance to the mushy land and so the mushy land rises upwards.

you asked so there it is.

I have seen these channels in clay and kaolin sedementary deposits and they are verry abundant
there is one at least every 12 inches or so and the size of the ones I have seen range from apx 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch in diameter some even greater and these are mostly feeder streams or channels.
further down they would grow in size as these feeders feed pressurized water into other channels the pressurized water would wash away the sides of the channels.

there is no telling how mushy the land will get.
but it probably resembles a sponge filled with frozen water.

also as the earth cools down again the water in the channels will re-freeze and push the ground up once again.
because freezing water expands.

as I said a few years ago , on this list , a few degrees of surface temperature goes a long way where magma meets rock.
and since heat transfers perhaps the extra heat the magma now has is melting the ice in the sponge under greenland.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/30/06 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by paul:
OK..

heres a good reason.

greenland ice has melted many times in the past.
I expect than underneath the ice there are old channels where water from melted ice once flowed as the old ice melted.
these channels were completely frozen but now
these channels are reopening and becomming mushy as the ice and the ground temperature is warming and melting or preparring to melt and flow once again.
the mushy ground underneath greenland is being pushed aside by the weight of the land and the ice inland of greenland.

the reason the land along the fringes as you call it is rising is because the land beyond the fringes is not mushy.
and this not mushy land provides a resistance to the mushy land and so the mushy land rises upwards.


you asked so there it is.
ok so where is the proof that the land is mushy and being pushed aside by the land. its not moving to the side, it moveing up. which means there is some pressure underneith it that is pushing upwords. being pushed aside would mean it was being pushed into the sea.

Quote:
I have seen these channels in clay and kaolin sedementary deposits and they are verry abundant
there is one at least every 12 inches or so and the size of the ones I have seen range from apx 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch in diameter some even greater and these are mostly feeder streams or channels.
further down they would grow in size as these feeders feed pressurized water into other channels the pressurized water would wash away the sides of the channels.
please prey tell how are these soft soil channels not being pushed around by the glacers. it the soil is soft it gets pushed away to the sea by glacers, not pushed upwards.


Quote:
there is no telling how mushy the land will get.
but it probably resembles a sponge filled with frozen water.
save that the ice is melting, and that means it will be carrying away any soft soil that is left. the ice will take up 9 percent more space than the water, so the water will not be pushing up the land, the ice might, but not the water.

Quote:
also as the earth cools down again the water in the channels will re-freeze and push the ground up once again.
because freezing water expands.
now the problem is that the ice will push the land up, when it freezes the problem is that were talking about a global warming and melting off of the ice, not the freezing of it.

Quote:
as I said a few years ago , on this list , a few degrees of surface temperature goes a long way where magma meets rock.
and since heat transfers perhaps the extra heat the magma now has is melting the ice in the sponge under greenland.
there is no indication that the land under greenland is any warmer than any part of land else where. If you have indications of it, please show them. the problem your not seeing is that iceland is a huge glacer. it scourse the ground of any soft soil. there is no soft spongy material to expand when it freezes, which would have no effect anyway since its suppose to be thawing. thats why the glacers are disappearing, they are melting, and the land is rising as the weight drops.

what you are not seeing is this is not a conjector of what might happen, its a proven fact that it happens.

1) in the us when the ice melted off, the land under it rose several meters.

2) as the glacers of canada melt off, the land is rising.

3)on the fringes of greenland the ice is melting and the land is rising. in the interior the reverse is happening.

if your going to come up with a theory at least have it explain the known facts.

the only doubt about what is happening, is how much of the magma will push up the land. since the weight changes will be on greenland and the ocean that is where the changes will take place.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/30/06 08:51 PM
Quote:
please prey tell how are these soft soil channels not being pushed around by the glacers. it the soil is soft it gets pushed away to the sea by glacers, not pushed upwards.
and which direction will the retreating glaciers push the soil as it is melting , I suppose that the melting glaciers are just melting uphill and venus and mars are in conjunction with greenlands glaciers due to the gravity of pluto and because pluto is no longer a planet the glaciers melting volcanic pumice has deteriorated into solent green thus the land where the solent green is at is greenland.


some obstacles are just too high to overcome.
dehammer have you ever painted your barn red?
and didnt like the color but you just kept painting anyway.
then you complained about it everyday until the barn needed painting again.

the other colors of paint are cheaper now so why did you buy more red paint?
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/30/06 09:07 PM
glacers flow down hill, even a child should know that. as they do all the soft soil and some rocks that they break off are carried with them. this leads to places where this rubble is dropped once the glacers melt. If you dont know anything about glacers there are plenty of places on the internet that can show you. untill then, it would be better if you stop showcasing your ignorace.

the glacers will only pile up the rubble when they retreat, which means if there is ice still there, they have not retreated to that point yet. GWA's complain about the ice getting thinner, not about the glacers retreating. They are still being pushed out by the heavier weight in the interior.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/30/06 09:19 PM
well you sure caught me on that one didnt you?

it sure is nice having someone as smart as you to remind me of things the way you do.

Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/30/06 10:25 PM
that pictures to small to tell exactly what it is. would you tell where you got it
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/31/06 12:02 AM
it is a picture of my aunt hazels barn in greenland.
the white stuff you see is what was left of a glaciers tributary.

something similar to a river of water only it is an ice flow.

the glacier and its tributaries are retreating up the mountain slope as you can see.

the barn was built in the late 40's and on top of the tributary.

the barn is moving uphill as the glacier and its tributaries melt.

she was visited by aliens late last year that warned her that this was about to come to pass.

and so she took this picture in case it was just a small movement.

however it turns out that after the glacier had fully retreated from her property this is the result



the barn had moved uphill a distance of 4.8 miles and came to rest here on a neibors property.
Posted By: dehammer Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/31/06 02:22 AM
better call the scientist, this will destroy all of their theory of gravity, and all the theories of how ice workds and everything. i guess youve got proof that science does not exist. we must not exist. were just a fragment of someones imagination.
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/31/06 01:56 PM
Quote:
i guess youve got proof that science does not exist.
yes I do...

if you can open a box of science and take out half of it and use it to prop up your table.

then science " EXIST " .

what properties does science have?
its molucelar structure?
its boiling temperature?

etc...

IT DOES NOT EXIST "."
Posted By: paul Re: Greenland's Melting - 08/31/06 03:48 PM
Quote:
better call the scientist
there phones were all busy so
I called someone better equiped to handle the problem.


who should I have called other than...


if you wanted to find out something about science
would you call a scientist?

who you gonna call !!!
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