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Posted By: Orac Does god have a role in science? - 10/12/11 04:10 AM
I started this thread as mechanism and home for the titles discussion feel free to add in your thoughts.

Okay I am going to open up by saying I don't think there is a role based on the following premis

If we assume there is a god and he made the universe lets look at how he could make the universe

1.) He creates a set of rules and logic and the world runs remotely obeying those rules. I will call this the AI version of our world.

2.) He actively participates in each and every reaction and action at every moment and step of our world. I will call this the controlled program version of our world.

There really are no other versions possible it is the same options you have as you try to program a computer game or any computer program.

Any other sort of world comes down to some sort of weird randomness and in such an world science has no part because there is no logic for science to work with.

Now if we take version 1 from above and we have a world created by GOD but running under a set of AI rules science may never understand the start point but it can study and make sense of the rules. So you don't need to discuss GOD or even consider him to work with the rules. Ultimately you make infer from the rules there must be a GOD but for the act of studying the rules you don't need to know or care if there is a GOD.

If we take version 2 from above that GOD is involved in every decision then actually he can determine whether I am supposed to pursue the science or not. So indirectly if I am pursuing the science it is his will because I really don't have any free will.

I believe most religions adopt version 1 because it gives us implicit free will version 2 tends to get a little murky.


So that is my reasoning for seperating GOD from science feel free to chime in.
Posted By: redewenur Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/12/11 05:17 AM
A variation on (1) would be:

The rules have always been present, either actualized or potentially, in what our friend Rev would probably call an eternal uncreated principle (God, GOD, He, She, It, or whatever tag grabs you).

In that case, not only is it irrelevant to science, it presents no scientific nor metaphysical conundrums regarding 'who' created what, how, when and why, nor about who created the creator. The prime principle just 'is', eternally, and all else 'is' because of it.
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/12/11 05:59 AM
God has nothing to do with Science and everything to do with belief.
Posted By: Orac Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/12/11 06:11 AM
Originally Posted By: redewenur
A variation on (1) would be:

The rules have always been present, either actualized or potentially, in what our friend Rev would probably call an eternal uncreated principle (God, GOD, He, She, It, or whatever tag grabs you).

In that case, not only is it irrelevant to science, it presents no scientific nor metaphysical conundrums regarding 'who' created what, how, when and why, nor about who created the creator. The prime principle just 'is', eternally, and all else 'is' because of it.


Ok so if I add that in again science is of no importance to that universe because it "is" or "isn't" at the whim of the omipotent one. So the fact we have and are doing science means he decided we should "do it".

It's like a mild variation of situation 2 infact if I rejig the wording on proposition 2 I can probably cover this.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/12/11 09:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Ellis
God has nothing to do with Science and everything to do with belief.
Interesting comment, Ellis.

It would be great to have a face-to-face chat with you--in person, or even with the use of Skype.

I would love to hear what definition comes to your mind when you use words like 'god', 'science', 'belief' and the like.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/12/11 09:54 PM
My first thought on seeing this question was that the answer was clearly an unequivocal “yes and no”. However, the more I think about it, the more sure I become that it is not as straightforward as that.

I think that one of the factors we have to consider is the definition of God inherent in the question.

If we are thinking of God as, not just the life of the cosmos, but the principle of existence, then in studying science we are studying God. Without such a God there would be no science, no scientists and nothing to study; but that is belief dependent.

On the other hand, if we are thinking of God in terms of the theological interpretation of some specific religious belief, then the situation will differ, depending on the belief system, and probably the individual interpretations of groups and individuals within that system.
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/13/11 02:24 AM
But, Bill S, If we are thinking of God as the principle of existence then we are, as you point out 'belief dependent'. There would have to be the belief that there is a God-thing that is at the centre of our existence. To deny that would mean that God would not be present, as the belief in God was also absent. However, wouldn't science still be merrily tripping along, galaxies whirling, rocks stratifying, chemicals forming and science would be keeping itself busy all through the glorious chaotic cosmos? And that is exactly what happens! (In my opinion.)

As humans we are good observers, and in our everyday life we are comfortable when there are rules for conduct and behaviour, as the alternative muddle is upsetting for us. The belief in God offers us at the very least, the chance for order and comfort.

And then there is the question as to whose God is in charge. It all comes back to definition of God. Even the God of All Things requires the need for belief. Science has no such requirement. Science, as rede says, just 'is'. Now that may be a manifestation of God-- it certainly is if you believe. But if you don't believe that it is just science.
Posted By: Orac Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/13/11 03:04 AM
I vote with Ellis a very nice view cool
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/13/11 05:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... If we are thinking of God as, not just the life of the cosmos, but the principle of existence, then in studying science we are studying God. Without such a God there would be no science, no scientists and nothing to study; but that is belief dependent.
Speaking only for myself, here is an expanded version of what I said in the philosophy thread
Quote:
I have no problem thinking of and accepting G.O.D.--physically, mentally and spiritually speaking--as the eternal and infinite here and now. And not just as a matter of blind faith, or belief.

I AM PROUDLY AGNOSTIC ABOUT MANY THINGS
Of course--in the same way that I am sure no wise scientist would ever claim to know all there is to know about, even one particular science, not to mention the whole of nature--I would not dare claim that I know all there is to know about the G.O.D. principle.

But I do "know" some things, as Carl Jung put, and the opportunity to experience and know more and more is too grand a thing and too good an idea to miss--just because I have allowed myself to be a victim of my stubborn pride by wanting to do it all by myself. Sure I want to be consciously involved, but I no longer foolishly resist the abundance the Universe has to offer.

HUMAN BEINGS CAN BECOME HUMANE BEINGS
It is my opinion that, depending on the choices we, as a rational, conscious and aware human beings, make, we are free to focus on what we call the here and now and create what we call the future. Then the NOW will tend to evolve, to unfold, towards that which is good, greater than just good, opportune, orderly, desirable and delightful, whatever.

Of course, at the same time, I am free to reject the good, etc. I am free to let my life be filled with that which is garbage, ghastly, gruesome, odious, obstinate, divisive and diabolic.

=========================
PS:From Wikipedia and the CBC

Rin Tin Tin: The Life and the Legend is a book by Susan Orlean, which was published in 2011 by Simon & Schuster. The first RTT was rescued from death by an animal-loving soldier in WW I. RTT's first role was that of a wolf. In the 1920's and 1930's RTT (I remember seeing some of the first movies), who could act better that many human beings, made a fortune for his owner and, more than once, saved his studio from bankruptcy and employed thousand of people. Later, "he"/"she" (offsprings) went on to TV fame.

The book is a non-fiction account of Rin Tin Tin. Blogcritics praised the depth of the book and wrote that "It was fascinating to read about the 16 million animals deployed in World War I as scouts, messengers, carriers of medical supplies, and sentries...."

Alaska Dispatch put it in its "20 new nonfiction reads for fall", calling it "a must-read book that is both an excellent piece of cultural history and a remarkable story of the animal-human bond."

DON'T WE ALL "CREATE" DOGS IN OUR OWN IMAGE
In an interview about this book, on the CBC (our public radio station) this AM, the author pointed out that during WW I, the Allies of course trained the dogs to serve their purposes and the Germans trained them to serve theirs. When, in 1933, the Nazis took power, of course they made sure that the usually gentle German Shepherd dogs became "good" Nazis.

BE AWARE! WE HAVE "DOGS" WITHIN US TO TRAIN
When I heard the story above, the thought came to me: We do the same with our gods. Sadly, we make our dogs (all pets) and our gods like us.

But the new theology does not deny that matter is sacred. Like the new approach of science itself, it simply requires that--despite the temptation to think only in terms of material dimensions--we have a new vision of what matter is and how it can be transformed, evolve into who, and what, we really are. Then we will go beyond, connect with and tune into that which is in through and beyond all material being.

Posted By: Orac Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/13/11 05:38 AM
I am not sure that cleared anything up for me I am sorry Rev infact it confused the hell out of me or into me depending on your religion :-)

So basic question to start does your GOD take the

1) non meddeling view
2) involved at every level view

Or some other path

As put in the original post?

I think we have to clear that hurdle so we can understand what your GOD feels like to you in a worldly sense and what degree of free will you have and how much he controls.

This comes from the problem alot of religions have GOD everywhere and in everything but that doesn't tell us what decisions he makes (GOD ordained) and what decisions you are free to make (Human free will).

It's hard but we have to create some platform of terms so we can discuss things.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/13/11 05:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Orac
I am not sure that cleared anything up for me I am sorry Rev infact it confused the hell out of me or into me depending on your religion smile

So basic question to start does your GOD take the
1) non meddling view
2) involved at every level view

For now I will just ask you one question: Do you think that I think that G.O.D. is A human-like supernatural being--one with dimensions?
Posted By: Orac Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/13/11 06:02 AM
We are trying to create a discussion platform I don't think it matters what you think GOD is for the moment maybe later it will.

I would guess an energy or force is how most religions portrait it ... oh I guess buddah does have a image like representation ... but mostly christians I believe put it as a light or energy?


I think you answered the question in a different thread

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

It is my opinion that, depending on the choices we make, this here and now will tend to evolve towards that which is good and great, or ghastly and gruesome.


So we have free will in your religion that bit answered I think.

So now the next bit how does the inanimate non free will part of the world mechanics work by rules or GOD medels or a bit of both?
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/13/11 11:30 AM
In another thread, in the "distant past", I raised the question of what we knew about God, as distinct from what we believed. I suggested that the answer was "nothing".

My recollection is that Rev somewhat derailed the intended discussion with a diversion into the semantics of "nothing" and "no-thing".

I think the question has to be asked again:

What does anyone know about God that can be shown to be knowledge rather than belief?
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/13/11 08:02 PM
An interesting comment by Andrei Linde:

“…the central idea of modern cosmology – that it must be possible to understand the entire Universe through one ultimate Theory of Everything – is an outgrowth of belief in one God. Thus cosmology has itself become a sort of religious quest: a search for ‘God’ in the form of an equation.”
I think first that it's impossible to apply any kind of logic to God without first making a bunch of provisos. Many religious people assert that the laws of logic only exist because God created them. Think about that for a second. This "God" exists beyond logic.

God has no place as explanation in science, because it doesn't explain anything. Why is the sky blue? That's the way God made it. Why does it look like organisms evolved on Earth? That's the way God made it. It "explains" any possible observation and therefore explains nothing.

Materialism is a sine qua non for real science.

Science can study people's ideas 'about' God, because ideas of God exist in people's heads.
Science can study religion, because religion exists in the collective of physical humans.

But science can't study any real supernatural phenomenon; nor even recognize their existence.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/15/11 05:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... I think the question has to be asked again:

What does anyone know about God that can be shown to be knowledge rather than belief?
I think of it this way: Whether I do it or not, I feel that the fact that I will to do good, more often than not, is evidence, and knowledge, that I am conscious of what I call G.O.D. The evidence? This makes me a better person.

BTW, it should be obvious that good people do more social good than those who are not. Good science, like good religion should be working together on developing and distributing somatic things--good food, clothing and shelter--that will help us be better people. And, please make us aware of the evil that false religion and science used for evil purposes can do.

If I were not a god-conscious, moral, law-respecting, and humane human being, I would probably be an instinct-driven amoral, sub-human psycho and/or sociopath, incapable of being humane. So lock me away and look after me, for life. Other than provide jobs for the prison industry--a big one in the modern world--what good would this do for the world?

Quote:
DO YOU REMEMBER THE OLD SONG:"DOIN' WHAT COMES NATURALLY"?
Nature lovers, most of us love what we call the animal kingdom and other nature-based kingdoms. But how many think we should all go back to the "good old days" when there were no human-made laws?

John, in his letter, says that "God is love". Think about those two nouns for a moment: God (absolute good and highest value) and love (agape--the will to do good)--the stuff of religion at its best.

Both are without somatic dimensions. They cannot be analysed and measured by science in the same way we can measure things.

But does this mean that they are of no knowledge-based value?

Take that which is god-like and love-like away from society and I will guarantee that in no time we will notice and KNOW that there is a difference. There will be obvious and easily measurable differences in all that we say and do, and how we interact with one another--politically, economically and socially.

Of course there are religious hypocrites, but do those who rant against all religion and recommend irreligion as a cure for war and the like ever stop to ask themselves: What was the state of justice, morality, peace, mercy and the like before beings with a humane consciousness evolved and created religion--the grandfather and grandmother of philosophy, science and art?
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/15/11 08:34 AM
So Rev we are once again back at the argument that atheists cannot appreciate justice, morality, peace, mercy and the like(!).

There is no inherent mercy in religious belief. Indeed some religious doctrine is violent and distasteful, demanding inhumane and disgusting practices from its adherents. Those things which you are assuming god-like and love-like properties for to me seem to be describing desirable aspects of being human.

All atheists aren't hideous monsters wallowing in sin and wickedness. We just don't believe that there is a "thing" (no NOT a personification) that is called god. Not a single solitary thing or even a big huge universal thing. We have no belief in the supernatural.
Posted By: finiter Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/15/11 11:35 AM
Originally Posted By: Orac

So that is my reasoning for seperating GOD from science feel free to chime in.


In my opinion, we have to think of life (our existence), before we think about the role of God in science. It is the 'consciousness' that makes us different from other animals. Is 'consciousness' an evolutionary edge that we have when compared to other animals? Or is it some extra-fitting that was given solely to us?

Both science and philosophy depend on our 'consciousness'. The science part deals with 'what the world is'. The philosophical part deals with 'how we should live (behave)in this world'. In the former, we can have an answer (ultimately arrive at the truth). In the latter, we can have only opinions (cannot arrive at the truth).

Regarding science, we can (hope to) arrive at the truth logically. However, if life and consciousness have 'any connection with God', then God can interfere with our efforts to understand the truth of the physical world; ie, God will have role in science. If life and consciousness are the 'qualities of matter', then God will have no role in science. However, HE can still remain as a spectator enjoying the game.

Regarding the existence of God, we can have only opinions, and can never logically arrive at the truth. If the universe is self-consistent, then it is like God. Then those who believe in God can say, "God created the universe in his own form as his image, ie, the cosmos is a part of him". Those who do not believe in God can say, "the self consistency is a proof that God does not exist". In my opinion, both the arguments are equally logical.
Posted By: finiter Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/15/11 11:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Of course there are religious hypocrites, but do those who rant against all religion and recommend irreligion as a cure for war and the like ever stop to ask themselves: What was the state of justice, morality, peace, mercy and the like before beings with a humane consciousness evolved and created religion--the grandfather and grandmother of philosophy, science and art?


What is 'religion'? In my opinion, it is just a 'set of laws'. The laws have evolved with time. Initially, the laws were similar to that of the animal kingdom - first self, then one's gang (the rest are to be thrown out). Gradually the laws became all encompassing. The persons whom you call nonreligious have also their laws; so they also have religion.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/15/11 12:56 PM
One of the first things we were taught in Expert Witness Courtroom Training was that whatever question you were asked, you should turn it into an opportunity to say what you wanted to say. However, it had to be done in such a way that it could be seen as an answer to the question.

Rev, you are good at the first part of this, but you really need to polish up the second part. smile
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/15/11 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Ellis
So Rev we are once again back at the argument that atheists cannot appreciate justice, morality, peace, mercy and the like(!).
Quote where I made such an accusation against atheists.

Ellis, surely you are not back to your habit of putting your own spin on what I wrote. It is not a good thing to do!
I never once intentionally even implied that I always do what is good and A/A's do not.
smile

"There is no inherent mercy in religious belief." You mean in all? Or some? There you go again, generalizing--not good at all!

"Indeed some religious doctrine is violent and distasteful, demanding inhumane and disgusting practices from its adherents." I am glad you included the word "some". It shows progress. smile

"Those things which you are assuming god-like and love-like properties for to me seem to be describing desirable aspects of being human." Of course, I agree."All atheists aren't hideous monsters wallowing in sin and wickedness." I agree! And neither are all religionists hypocrites. "We just don't believe that there is a "thing" (no NOT a personification) that is called god. Not a single solitary thing or even a big huge universal thing..." Did I ever say that G.O.D. is a thing, or even a person?

We have no belief in the supernatural."

Unless you were given the authority to speak for all Atheists/Agnostics, again you generalize when you say "we".

Severals A/A's with whom I have had good dialogues with at ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS.com had threads in which they wrote about being spiritual and what this implies.

BTW, to make sure that you know what I mean when I use this acronym, A/A--it means Atheists and Agnostics. It does not mean addicts to alcohol. smile

QUANTUM PHYSICS and the supernatural.
Serious quantum physicists like David Deutsch write books about THE BEGINNING OF ETERNITY

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2011/10/14/quantum-computing-david-deutsch/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Deutschhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Deutsch
Deutsch is an atheist and a falsificationist. I doubt he takes supernaturalism seriously.

Supernatural "explanations" are not explanations. They may make you feel good, but they don't explain anything. They have no value whatever in science. None.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/15/11 11:02 PM
Bill S, you say
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... Rev, you are good at the first part of this--[turning the question around and saying what I want to say, right?] but you really need to polish up the second part. smile
OK, here is a challenge: If you were my teacher, what would you say to me that would help me "polish up the second part"?

Then we can talk about which came first: G.O.D.? Or creation?

Maybe we prefer to talk about:

THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/83...cken-or-the-egg
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/16/11 12:26 AM
Quote:
If you were my teacher, what would you say to me that would help me "polish up the second part"?


I would no presume to adopt the role of teacher. You are obviously a man of some intelligence, I feel confident that you must know what answering questions involves.
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/16/11 12:48 AM
Rev: You infer that taking out things that are "god-like and love-like" will ensure that a difference is noted. There would be a difference but you believe that that it is because god (which/whom you equate with love)is removed from the scene-- I don't acknowledge this is the reason. I think that it is because human behaviour would no longer be human. Nothing to do with the supernatural. Nothing to do with god=love. Just that humans can be good or bad. It's up to us (am I allowed to include myself in the human race there or do I have to say 'I').

Which brings me to the "we atheist"s thing--- All atheists do not think the same about everything, but I remember discussing with you before the fact that all atheists absolutely do not believe in god in any of his/her/its manifestations. You are an agnostic if you are spiritual and unsure. Nothing wrong with that, just not an atheist!

I repeat, as atheists we have no belief in the supernatural. And--- God does not have a role in science unless humans want and believe it to be so.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/16/11 03:30 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... I would no(t) presume to adopt the role of teacher. You are obviously a man of some intelligence, I feel confident that you must know what answering questions involves.
Thanks for your confidence in what you call my "some intelligence".

ABOUT QUESTIONS
The bottom line is: We need to take care how we pose and answer questions. Being diplomatic, when called for, is not a bad idea. Choosing to remain silent about the questions posed by life can, at times, be golden, but it can also mean that we are just plain yellow.

Some questions are valid, some are fair, sincere, direct and simply the kind that are information-seeking and can encourage having a good dialogue. Other questions can be rhetorical (accusative), loaded (full of implications), fallacious (deceptive), embarrassing, and bullying, whatever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

Some questions are like bait on a hook. They are designed to catch fish. Fish which keep their mouth closed and refuse to take the bait tend to avoid the frying pan, and the fire, eh? When asked a serious question, it is wise to stop and think about the implications. smile

Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/16/11 05:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Rev: You infer that taking out things that are "god-like and love-like" will ensure that a difference is noted. There would be a difference but ...
No, Ellis, with due respect to all, including humane Atheists/Agnostics, I did not infer anything like you suggest. I simply asked a question--which I repeat and expand on below.

This time, let us not just pose the question to the modern skeptics and cynics--ones who rant against all forms of religion, including philosophy/psychology-based democratic and non-dogmatic religions--but let us pose the question to scientists, including geologists, paleontologists, anthropologists, evolutionists and students of pre-human history. Let us ask all:

Assuming that our highly-evolved ancestors, including humane Atheists/Agnostics, came along quite late in the history of evolution, let us ask:

What was the state of justice, morality, peace, mercy and the like, not to mention philosophy, science, culture and art, before there were what we think of as human beings who were evolved enough to create the first religions--the grandfather and grandmother of modern philosophy, science
and art? How many of us would vote to return to the "good old days"--dominated by the laws of fire, the ocean, the swamp, the jungle, the desert and the like?

Quote:
IT DOES NOT SERVE THE PUBLIC GOOD TO SPREAD THE FALLACY THAT RELIGION AND SCIENCE MUST BE ENEMIES
Good people always keep their minds and hearts open in the service of one another and the building of community.
FYI there is a SOCIETY OF ORDAINED SCIENTISTS
There are members who are chemists, physicists, medical doctors, engineers and many more disciplines.
http://www.ordainedscientists.org/index.html

NEXT WEEK, I PLAN TO ATTEND The following--London, Ontario:
https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&i...32fe2bb7d1f0bb5

Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/16/11 10:29 AM
Rev, I agree with your comments about the need for care in asking and answering questions.

I was going to ask if any questions I had asked, that you had not answered were, in your opinion, "rhetorical (accusative), loaded (full of implications), fallacious (deceptive), embarrassing, [or] bullying", or, perhaps "like bait on a hook". However, I anticipated a response asking “what questions?” which would involve spending a lot of time searching; time that might be better spent in lively discussion. I have, therefore, heeded your admonition, opted for caution and refrained from asking that question.
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/16/11 11:32 PM
In defence of inference.

Rev-- dict def of 'infer'--- to derive (something) as a conclusion from evidence or premise as opposed to that which is explicitly stated.

A valid debating tool I would have thought, as inference may sometimes not conclude that which had been intended in the original statement. Inference shows that care needs to be taken in all areas of argument, unless it can be acknowledged as an interesting point of view on a topic to debate. Rev- You sometimes spray out questions or points and then do not follow up or even acknowledge the differences of opinion that emerge. It is in fact such diversion that would lead to the lively debate you often say you would like to see.

Also, here comes a small gripe, you often group Atheists and Agnostics as though they wear interchangeable labels. They are different. Neither is better than the other- but they are different. So, if we (sorry I!) have to have a label please let it be correct.

PS. Bill S I liked your latest post. Very well put!
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/16/11 11:39 PM
PS Rev, The "god-like" and "love-like" comments were NOT in a question but a statement-- Therefore ripe for inference!
What does "God" actually explain?
Posted By: Orac Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/17/11 03:50 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
An interesting comment by Andrei Linde:

“…the central idea of modern cosmology – that it must be possible to understand the entire Universe through one ultimate Theory of Everything – is an outgrowth of belief in one God. Thus cosmology has itself become a sort of religious quest: a search for ‘God’ in the form of an equation.”


No science believes the mechanics of the universe must follow a set a set if rules. What or how those rules were created may or may not be able to be answered but the rules should be able to be understood.

If you believe the expanding universe then sometime in our future all the galaxies will be so far apart light from them will never make it to us. So when we look up at the stars at that time you will see only black no stars you wonder what people will make of the universe in that background.
Posted By: Orac Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/17/11 04:00 AM
This whole thread seems to have got derailed into discussions about GOD.

For now lets leave GOD alone before we get some frameworks in place.

Lets talk about the operation of the universe which as far as I can see still there are only two options

1.) The universe operates via a set of rules in remote and GOD made or is making those
2.) GOD meddles and is involved in each and everything that happens.

Does anyone have any other options?
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/17/11 05:51 AM
Ellis, After reading the comment by Bill S about the asking of questions I took a look at your most recent and stimulating-post to me. Unless I missed it, it, interestingly, did not contain one question. I wonder why.

You simply stated that
Originally Posted By: Ellis
... all atheists absolutely do not believe in god in any of his/her/its manifestations.
Ellis, I am sure that you realize that the word 'manifestation' is a very complex one. So keep in mind that most modern theists--and certainly all panentheistic unitheists--do not think of god as a being who goes around manifesting himself or herself in a three-dimensional form.

Based on what you and other atheists say I have come to accept that it is probably impossible for atheists--especially if they really do believe that the material world is the only heaven possible--to have a meaningful dialogue with theists about matters theological and spiritual. Perhaps all we can do is, with kindness and respect, accept each other for who we are.

EVOLUTION TAKES TIME
Visionary theists, especially panentheistic unitheists on the other hand, are those who can sing with the Martin Luther Kings of the world: "Deep in our hearts we do believe we shall overcome some day..." He and those who saw the vision and acted on it made it happen. And we all know that desegregation came at a great cost--his life and the lives of others.

As one optimistic visionary once said: The difficult things we do as soon as possible; the impossible things, the kind we ought to do, may take longer." It also may take lives. That's the price!

Some believers, visionaries with whom I agree, put it this way: We know, not just believe, that the world of matter can be dynamically transformed by knowledge (wisdom) put to work by loving minds and spirits from what the world is into what it ought to be.

Isn't this is what the new physicists are all about? Getting the knowledge that will help us demonstrate this on a regular basis? They, the philosophers, the artists and the prophets before them, challenge us to have the vision to see what is and make it what it ought to be.

I agree that there is no god who has a role in science. G.O.D. does not play roles. G.O.D. IMO is the transforming love, is the message, the knowledge the art, and the process.
Posted By: Orac Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/17/11 06:04 AM
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

I agree that there is no god who has a role in science. G.O.D. does not play roles. G.O.D. IMO is the transforming love, is the message, the knowledge the art, and the process.


I really like that thought Rev.

It does however sidestep the question of how the universe works but given the statement I guess it doesn't really matter your view is ambivalent to the real world?
Not every question that can be asked is answerable by science.

I'm not sure I understand the options you've laid out.

I would say,

1) There is no God.
2) The universe IS God.
3) God set up initial rules and everything afterward is on auto-pilot.
4) God set up the initial rules AND interferes periodically.
5) God set up the initial rules AND consciously wills everything that happens.

You eliminate options 1 and 2, and combine options 4 and 5.

There are other sub-options.
For the life of me, I still can't imagine what God actually "explains."

I also don't know what we can infer about God if God is beyond beyond logic.
Posted By: Orac Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/17/11 03:44 PM
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend


I'm not sure I understand the options you've laid out.

I would say,

1) There is no God.
2) The universe IS God.
3) God set up initial rules and everything afterward is on auto-pilot.
4) God set up the initial rules AND interferes periodically.
5) God set up the initial rules AND consciously wills everything that happens.

You eliminate options 1 and 2, and combine options 4 and 5.

There are other sub-options.


So lets take them 1 at a time

1) There is no God. So therefore everything must make sense so science is the story and we do not need consider god.

2) The universe IS God. Then there is inherently no understanding possible. Again science and GOD are not in conflict. It does beg the question as to why we are allowed or exhibit the free will to study something that we can never understand ... torment us ... the devil????

3) God set up initial rules and everything afterward is on auto-pilot. Again science can follow the rules everything should make sense without needing to know GOD exists and ultimately we may infer GOD must exists because of the rules.

4) God set up the initial rules AND interferes periodically. So we should be able to follow the laws and rules and see the discontinuities. Again via number 3 above we may even be able to infer GOD exists because of the interferring.

5) God set up the initial rules AND consciously wills everything that happens. Then we study science because GOD wills it to be so.


So following each of groups I come to the same conclusions science does not need to concern itself with GOD or we do science because GOD wills it to be so.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/18/11 04:54 AM
Orac, thanks for your comment about my recent post in answer to your interesting and valid question:
Quote:
Does god have a role in science?
I have already said that I agree that there is no god, that I know of, who has a role in science. But, with tongue in cheek I add: Perhaps there are scientists--particularly those who happen to be clergy--who would like the rest of us to worship them as gods.

Take note: God is not the same as god
Many larger dictionaries--for example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God --agree that there is a difference between the meaning of the two words, God and god. 'God' (with a capital G) means the one deity in the monotheistic religions in question.

However 'god' (without a capital g) is a common noun that refers to any deity of any religion, or set of religions. It can even be used to express awe--My god! Or as a curse--goddam!

For example, if I say 'God is great!', I'm talking about one specific deity. God can be used as the English translation of any or all one God of the monotheistic religions like, for example, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Most believers--and I am not one such--do tend to believe and think of God as the one lord and almighty king, the one who knows it all, is present everywhere and has the almighty power to set up his kingdom on earth. This is what prompts atheists, and even skeptical believers, to ask: If this is such a one true and supernatural God with all that power, what is he waiting for?

Unitheists have such a different concept of what the god-hypothesis is all about we have to use a different terminology. The term I like is G.O.D--that which is good, opportune and desirable for all of us--the doing of good deeds, not just the believing in dogmatic creeds. Surely atheists are interested in deeds, not creeds. G.O.D. then does not point to a super being who plays roles.

G.O.D., IMO, is the transforming power of will-based love (agape) active in the bodies, minds and hearts (spirits) of people. G.O.D. is the message, the knowledge, the art, and as part of the process we all experience as life. This process prompts thinking people to ask ourselves, frequently: What is the meaning and purpose of life? What does it mean to be human? When life IS full of pain and suffering, what OUGHT we to DO about it? Scientists! Now it is your turn.

THE ROLE OF MORAL, ETHICAL AND LOVING SCIENTISTS As to the nature and function of life and the universe, and how it works. I am happy to leave this role to the scientists--some of whom, as I said before, happen to be ordained clergy. BTW, who are the scientists, retired or otherwise, in this section of SAGGO?
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/18/11 05:20 PM
No time at present to read all the foregoing, so I shall throw in a thought, which I will "defend" later if necessary.

Infinity has no more place in science than does God.
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Infinity has no more place in science than does God.

So ... do we throw away calculus? (which would also toss out, for example, any parts of probability depending on it)
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/18/11 10:43 PM
Me? I agree, Bill S--TFF I think BS wants to include both: I am rooting for all scientists who are working on giving us Goodness optimized and delightful--G.O.D. for short. As Keats said, such can be "a thing of beauty and a joy forever."--an infinite and eternal process loved for its own sake as well as for the concrete beauty produced.
Quote:
In philosophy, the study of knowledge is called epistemology (from the Greek episteme), and the philosopher Plato famously defined knowledge as "justified true belief." There is, however, no single agreed upon definition of knowledge, and there are numerous theories to explain it. As a pneumatologist, I feel that we ought not neglect intuition as a means of getting knowledge.
It is from the Latin word for knowledge, scientia, that we get our word, science.
Quote:
Knowledge acquisition involves complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning; while knowledge is also said to be related to the capacity of acknowledgment in human beings.



Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 10/26/11 01:52 AM
Originally Posted By: TFF
So ... do we throw away calculus?


Of course we don't throw away calculus.

As one of eclectic inclinations I am reluctant to throw anything away. However, calculus in so far as it treats infinity, deals with mathematical infinities, which are undoubtedly firmly at home in the realms of science.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/03/12 05:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... As one of eclectic inclinations I am reluctant to throw anything away. However, calculus in so far as it treats infinity, deals with mathematical infinities, which are undoubtedly firmly at home in the realms of science.
In the: "Philosophy or Religion, all Religions ..." thread in the NQSscience section, I was just asked WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME?
I wrote, here it is: PNEUMATOLOGY--the mother of psychology! And it prompts me to ask: Does it now have the same status as a natural science? If so, a meta-prayer I have been making since 1964 has been recently answered, YES!

The answer is in the form of a great book: WILLPOWER--Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength. My family gave it to me for Christmas.

If what is claimed here is true: We now have scientific evidence, brought to the light of day by a long period of thorough research, that "willpower"--is like a physical muscle.

This means that it can be measured and put to work like any muscle. Its work is not unlike the goal of all the great world religions: saving civilizations from the curse of self-destruction.

The thought came to me that this belongs in the GENERAL SCIENCE SECTION. With this in mind, I made an act of will. Then, lo and behold, I remembered ORAC's thread. And here we are. Am I in the right place? Or is willpower too iffy to be considered as being part hard science?

THE NEW YORK TIME REVIEW OF THE BOOK

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/books/...?pagewanted=all
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/03/12 01:28 PM
If God has a place in a science thread, I'm sure willpower could be fitted in as well.

Since Orac started this thread, even he can hardly complain. smile

BTW Orac, where have you gone. Without your influence it's so easy to drift away from solid science.
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/04/12 12:42 AM
I'm sure we've been enticed into discussing will power before. In my reply, as I am being urged to adopt an interrogative style--- here goes---

What on earth has willpower to do with God and Science?
Is will power like god because it is invisible?
By what scale of 1--10 would one measure will power?
Is Bill S right when he states that will power is able to be studied as a topic in a science thread because god is?
Does any of this make sense?

That's enough. It's exhausting asking questions. It makes me feel very aggressive. Maybe that is why girls were encouraged to find agreement in discussions when I was growing up (long ago!). Now THERE is an interesting behavioural science question, the place of mediation in the education of girls! However it takes us no further along the discussion path of god's place in science.

It comes back again to the question of belief---
Or- to placate Rev... Do you think it comes back to a question of belief?
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/04/12 05:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Ellis

It comes back again to the question of belief---
Or- to placate Rev... Do you think it comes back to a question of belief?
It sure does something for the Reverends belief. He's posted the same claims (word for word) for his ideal in more than one place on this board.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/04/12 03:29 PM
Quote:
He's posted the same claims (word for word) for his ideal in more than one place on this board.


Could be he thinks that repetition trumps tautology.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/04/12 03:35 PM
Quote:
Is Bill S right when he states that will power is able to be studied as a topic in a science thread because god is?


There's a conditional clause in there, Ellis. With TT in the thread, we have to watch the details. smile
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/04/12 05:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.


Could be he thinks that repetition trumps tautology.


It's all a matter of perspective isn't it...
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/05/12 03:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Ellis, your questions and my responses:

Q1. What on earth has willpower to do with God and Science?

A1. In a word, nothing! Ellis, I repeat what I have said before about the "God" you mention in your question--the one believers say they believe in, and the same one that atheists say is an illusion.

I agree with those who say that unless such a "God"--the God of the Bible, the Koran and certain narrow theisms--agrees to show up at a research lab to be questioned, probed, weighed, measured and otherwise explored--is an illusion and has no role or place in science.

BEYOND and within EXISTENCE
G.O.D., on the other hand is a complex and not a simple idea, but something else, something unimaginable. G.O.D. is definitely NOT a dimensional being like the gods and God are imagined to be. G.O.D. is an aseity--a very special and complex concept.

This why I need to use a special acronym, not just a regular noun. When what we today call laser--an acronym for light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation --technology was invented, the inventors had to use more than a simple noun to express was it was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseity
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Gods-Attributes/Aseity/
G.O.D.is not someone who exists in space/time, but rather [b]IS[/b] space/time.

Existing in space/time, like we are now, is prison-like limitation.
===================
Q2. Is will power like god because it is invisible?

A2. Willpower--same as G.O.D.power to me--is like many natural gasses (Hydrogen, oxygen, etc.) invisible to the sight.

But invisible gasses are very real, sensed in others ways by other senses and they can have great impact on life. Think of willpower in the same way. Knowledge of it and how to use it can certainly have an impact on life itself.

FROM the reviews of the book, "WILLPOWER"--Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength. The book is by Roy Baumeister, an extraordinarily creative scientist who is also the most distinguished experimental social psychologist in the world, and John Tierney, a phenomenally perceptive journalist. Both have teamed up to put will back into its rightful center-stage place. Ignore it at your peril.

======================================================
And overview of the book from a number of sources:
[quote]WILLPOWER is about the science of self-control--the kind we need to live lives that are physically, mentally and spiritually successful from birth to old age. It affects almost every aspect of our lives.

WHAT LEARNING HOW TO TURN ON WILLPOWER CAN DO
People who have learned how to have willpower--and it can be learned--are the ones who eat a healthy diet, get rid of an addiction, exercise, manage their time well and resist the temptations that can often destroy individuals, families, communities and even nations.

The fascinating research on the subject will provide you with simple tricks to help us tap into this important quality.

Once you start reading about this exciting new science of self control, you won't be able to stop. It is a highly intelligent work filled with helpful information and great advice about a core element of modern living.

Long before what we call modern psychology came along as the science of behavious, its mother, pneumatology and her mate philosophy paid a lot of attention to will, willpower and to mental energy. Modern psycholgy shunned them. What a mistake! This masterpiece undoes the damage caused by the mistake.

THE REALLY GOOD NEWS IS; WILLPOWER IS A TERRIFIC AND ENTERTAINING READ

=======================
Q 3. By what scale of 1--10 would one measure will power?

A 3. We'll check how how the book handles this.

Q.4. Is Bill S right when he states that will power is able to be studied as a topic in a science thread because god is?
Does any of this make sense?

A.4. I believe that we will be able to measure how G.O.D. like we are if we will it; how self-aware we are how we can benefit from this.

Q.5. It comes back again to the question of belief---
Or- to placate Rev... Do you think it comes back to a question of belief?

A.5. No need to placate me. This is an opportunity to explore great ideas and themes

Chapter 5 of WILLPOWER is about the quantified self. It is about how understanding what it is and how it works can help us deal with serious obsessive compulsive neurotic behaviour and save much pain and suffering.

Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/05/12 02:27 PM
Quote:
Chapter 5 of WILLPOWER is about the quantified self. It is about how understanding what it is and how it works can help us deal with serious obsessive compulsive neurotic behaviour and save much pain and suffering.


I am very much in favour of trying to alleviate pain and suffering. However, having recently been subjected to some of the philosophies underlying “The Secret”, I am inclined to be a bit extra cautious. In this case, I see something that, basically, I could identify with, that has been hijacked by “libertarian” ideals and has turned into something that is self-centred, uncaring and socially destructive. Anyone see a parallel with some religious practices there?
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/05/12 07:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
...
I am very much in favour of trying to alleviate pain and suffering. However, having recently been subjected to some of the philosophies underlying “The Secret”, I am inclined to be a bit extra cautious.
BS, I agree! Experience has taught me to be cautious and always use due diligence whenever faced with having to make serious decisions that have serious consequences, for good, or ill.
BS, you add
Quote:
In this case, I see something that, basically, I could identify with ...
I assume you mean you could identify with the information I wrote about book, WILLPOWER?

You mention, "libertarian ideals--self-centred, uncaring and socially destructive....some religious practices ..."
Such as ...? What are some that you have in mind?
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/05/12 08:21 PM
Ellis, further to your question about God and science:

I told you about my god-hypothesis as being BEYOND and within EXISTENCE
G.O.D., on the other hand is a complex and not a simple idea, but something else, something unimaginable. G.O.D. is definitely NOT a dimensional being like the gods and God are imagined to be. G.O.D. is an aseity--a very special and complex concept.

To the above, I add as follows: Read, carefully, what Paul says about THEOS (the Greek for god, generally speaking) in Acts 17:22-34. Here he offers to explain THEOS as the ONE who is not an idol--physically or mentally created.I apologize for the long quote from the Bible. I do it to show that Paul's concept of "god" was pretty advanced for the time in which he lived.
=========================
Acts 17:22-34
New International Version (NIV)
22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.[One translation mentions: "And you worship a lot of gods.]

23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.

25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[a] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[b]

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.”
33 At that, Paul left the Council.
34 Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.
==================
Paul, the Jewish follower of Jesus--showing how open-minded he was--even quoted Gentile philosophers of whom he knew:
Footnotes:
Acts 17:28 From the Cretan philosopher Epimenides
Acts 17:28 From the Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/05/12 09:03 PM
Quote:
I assume you mean you could identify with the information I wrote about book, WILLPOWER?


No. I was referring to “The Secret” which, as far as I can gather, arose as a pseudo-scientific development of some the ideas of David Bohm.

If I am to be drawn into saying more on this subject I should point out that I am certainly not an expert. Also, the philosophy I mentioned relates not just to “The Secret” but to its later development, “The Law of Attraction” (Abraham Hicks). This, it seems includes concepts from QM and the holographic universe, with shades of re-incarnation.

For the moment, though, I shall just set the record straight by saying that I was not imputing libertarian “nasties” to your book.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/05/12 09:22 PM
Quote:
I agree with those who say that unless such a "God"--the God of the Bible, the Koran and certain narrow theisms--agrees to show up at a research lab to be questioned, probed, weighed, measured and otherwise explored--is an illusion and has no role or place in science.


Quote:
G.O.D., on the other hand is a complex and not a simple idea, but something else, something unimaginable. G.O.D. is definitely NOT a dimensional being like the gods and God are imagined to be. G.O.D. is an aseity--a very special and complex concept.


A concept which, presumably cannot “show up at a research lab to be questioned, probed, weighed, measured and otherwise explored”.
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/05/12 11:18 PM
I enjoyed this comment on 'willpower' by Rev:
"Once you start reading about this exciting new science of self control, you won't be able to stop".

To use my new interrogative style--- Is that a sterling example of the power of will?--The inability to stop something is surely the outstanding characteristic of the lack of will-power/self-control!

Why, Rev, do you negate the possibility of the existence of a corporeal god over your preferred G.O.D. model of the divine? Many devout worshippers acknowledge that God is at least some sort of entity. Why do you not allow for this belief?

You say God is not a dimensional being. How can you be sure? Many very intellectual and thoughtful scholars do think that. Why are they wrong in your view? I am not saying your view is wrong, but I have always been interested in your complete denial of the most prevalent image of the divinity/ god-thing. You obviously believe in something called, apparently, G.O.D. which seems to be incapable of definition.

In my opinion everyone eventually discovers their own idea of the god thing for themselves. Some stay neatly tucked up in conventional religions, others stray into individual interpretations which satisfy their search for truth. Belief allows them to be devout and steadfast within their faith. Others reject the concept of the supernatural and are comfortable with their decision. Some will always search. It's a personal choice.

Really we are no further in deciding if god has a place in science. It seems that first we have to decide whether we are all talking about the same god idea--- and we are most definitely not! Since both science and god can exist without each other should they be consciously separated?
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/06/12 05:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Ellis

1.Why, Rev, do you negate the possibility of the existence of a corporeal god over your preferred G.O.D.?

2.Many devout worshippers acknowledge that God is at least some sort of entity. Why do you not allow for this belief?

3.You obviously believe in something called, apparently, G.O.D. which seems to be incapable of definition.
1.Ellis, do you really expect me to believe there really is a Superman-like god? Or a Batman-like god?

I tried that route, and it didn't work. Look at how many have done it and still do it:
"Please God, or SG, stop all wars and make the poor rich, tomorrow!" Has it happened yet?

Or how about: Make all the bad people good, and the good people nice! Not even that has happened.

The only thing that has worked on TT is WILLPOWER. Did not all of you witness the miracle? laugh

2.Sure, we all have the right to our opinion and to our beliefs, as do I.

However, the difference is: Willpower advocates welcome that opinions and my beliefs be put to the test.

But will the ones who pray to God submit to such a tests? Let us ask them.

This is why I welcome this book, WILLPOWER. It helped one of the authors overcome a very serious compulsive neurosis.

IMO, it could, and should, be used to help all people needing it to overcome any kind of addiction, or perversion, especially the criminal kind. I used it, often, years ago to help people (including myself), and still do.

3. G.O.D., as willpower, can be tested. This implies that science is an extension of G.O.D. Therefore, they are components in the ONENess.

==========
The more I read about Willpower in the book, WILLPOWER, and the more I act on it, the more I equate G.O.D. with willpower. This means that things get done that would have gone undone.

For some time I have been aware that this has been happening since I was a very young.

Therefore, G.O.D. I find can become visible and palpable through us--sons and daughter of G.O.D.

Now, as I go through the ageing process, I am using willpower to add value to living in last decade or so of my life.
==========

Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/06/12 06:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

I tried that route, and it didn't work. Look at how many have done it and still do it:
"Please God, or SG, stop all wars and make the poor rich, tomorrow!" Has it happened yet?

Or how about: Make all the bad people good, and the good people nice! Not even that has happened.

The only thing that has worked on TT is WILLPOWER. Did not all of you witness the miracle? laugh

In what way was your will power directed toward me?

Wouldn't it be beneficial to direct your will power to stop all wars, make the poor rich, or the good people out of bad? Obviously your will power is strong enough to push the ignore button to ignore what you don't like or prefer in your creation.

To what limits does will extend itself, or is will power unlimited?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

2.Sure, we all have the right to our opinion and to our beliefs, as do I.

However without the ability to see the personal God in all of those opinions, the best power of will is to block out that which does not appear to be the same God or will of God. This is how will is limited to the ego and becomes ineffective as will is measured against the force of the opposing will of God and other personal beliefs.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

However, the difference is: Willpower advocates welcome that opinions and my beliefs be put to the test.

To see if those opinions have the same value as ones own opinions and beliefs?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

But will the ones who pray to God submit to such a tests? Let us ask them.

Who is making up these tests? God? Or the ego which wills "that which is annoying be dissolved and dis-created?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

This is why I welcome this book, WILLPOWER. It helped one of the authors overcome a very serious compulsive neurosis.

It is likely they overcame neurosis thru the belief that Health was more of a preference than neurosis. The idea that one wills away that which is less than preferable, is missing the greater reality where one focuses on the greater reality and creates it because of belief and experience in the mind having an effect in all experiences. Since the mind is the master, what you focus on grows when the attention is given to something greater than the illusion.
If the subconscious holds the illusion as truth no surface incantation of the mind can erase it. The greater truth has to be known before the illusion is abandoned.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

IMO, it could, and should, be used to help all people needing it to overcome any kind of addiction, or perversion, especially the criminal kind. I used it, often, years ago to help people (including myself), and still do.

When someone wants to change their mind, the experience of reality follows. One has to accept the greater reality which lessens the grip on the lesser one. Will power as you describe it, is the application of one belief to dissolve the other. Belief precedes the experience which then in turn allows the mind to let go of the previous belief.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

3. G.O.D., as willpower, can be tested. This implies that science is an extension of G.O.D. Therefore, they are components in the ONENess.

Using this rationale it can be applied to illusions and stress. Where God being the force of will which holds the body in stress and illusion is equal to the force which frees it from stress. The one-ness of God therefor is experienced in the contrast which opens the eyes to the alternative experience, and brings one closer to the idea that the body follows the mind as the creator of both sickness and health. Simply willing ones self into health only addresses the symptoms of separation from the God creator within. It does not address the creator self directly nor does it directly address the God within the illness.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

The more I read about Willpower in the book, WILLPOWER, and the more I act on it, the more I equate G.O.D. with willpower. This means that things get done that would have gone undone.
Like your misinterpretations of Tolles NOW, you are ignoring what is prior to your God created miracles as being God in the first place. Do you not see the miracle of God creating all things including neurosis?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

For some time I have been aware that this has been happening since I was a very young.

Therefore, G.O.D. I find can become visible and palpable through us--sons and daughter of G.O.D.

If God pleases you.... This is typical of all religionists. This is how churchianity separates the demons from the gods thru witch hunting.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Now, as I go through the ageing process, I am using willpower to add value to living in last decade or so of my life.
==========

This value may be only what you believe to be valued. Which still may be the separation of utility and God in what you might call suffering and chaos, since your G.O.D. May not be orderly until it meets the goals of your value system.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/06/12 06:11 PM
As far as one can generalise about such things, I think we believe what we believe because that is what we need to believe; even if that need is buried so far in our past (or subconscious) that we cannot recognise it.

By the same generalisation, defending our beliefs, even in what purports to be open minded discussion, tends to have the effect of strengthening those beliefs.

I think it would be an interesting exercise if Rev and TT were to change sides and each defend the other's viewpoint.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/06/12 09:40 PM
TT comments,
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
Obviously your will power is strong enough to push the ignore button, to ignore what you don't like or prefer in your creation.
I used the ignore button advisedly. It enables me to do a quick check to see if a post might contain some valuable knowledge, or has comments and questions to which I need to respond--as I am now doing.

On the other hand, if I find it is just so much twisted rhetoric and verbiage that makes no sense to me, I can put it on the ignore button.

Note to all: The following revision is for clarity
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
[Now I, Revlgk, clarify what I should have said: I tried the route of theism--believing in a God who claims he listens to, and answers, all the prayers of his obedient servants--and it didn't work.

Over the decades, the only thing that has worked is WILLPOWER. A recent example: It worked on TT. Which, as the following question with a laugh obviously shows, I said it jokingly. This is why I asked all posters: Did not Ellis mention the miracle? laugh
TT, now you ask
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
1. In what way was your will power directed toward me?
You also ask:
2.Wouldn't it be beneficial to direct your will power to stop all wars, make the poor rich, or the good people out of bad?
3.To what limits does will extend itself, or is will power unlimited?
Responses by me:
1. In thinking of WILLPOWER/G.O.D.-power, and self-control. The first thing that comes to mind is empathy--entering fully through imagination: I choose (will) to rid myself of egotistic impulses. I also choose to identify myself with persons and causes I support that come to my attention.

2. Agreed!

3. Humanity--a dysfunctional family addicted to power, control and money--after struggling through decades of what I think of as rogue somatology and psychology--has only just now begun come back into harmony. Now, guided by pneumatology, we are ready to know and to explore this greatest human strength--WILLPOWER and its product self-control.

IMHO, with the help of the basic pneumatological tool of self-control, the now and the future can be approached with a progressive mental attitude.

At this very moment, we can begin to rejoice that we have enough self-control to lose what caused us to be dysfunctional: The myths and ignorances which have bound us in the past and the fears we have of the now and the future. Now self-control, the fruit of willpower, gives us the confidence to allow ourselves to be guided by a rational faith, hope and love, into a future that is our to vision and to make into a reality.

TIME FOR REJOICING laugh
As I recall, I was in my early teens when I first heard of, and did some studies on: How powerful the guided and strengthened mind/will can be. It was then called "mentalphysics". Later, in the 1960's, after exploring somatology and psychology, I stumbled on the word, "pneumatology" and learned that Pneuma was the mother of psyche(ology), and soma(tology) before the family-without-a-father went rogue. Now, with the help this new science, we are ready to reunite the family.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/06/12 11:21 PM
We seem to have drifted quite a long way from the OP and into a discourse on conflicting (?) religious belief systems.

Going nowhere, slowly and laboriously comes to mind.

How about adopting “dog philosophy”: If you can't eat it or hump it ... pee on it and walk away!!!
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/06/12 11:23 PM
Oops! Could I be excommunicated from SAGG for that?
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/07/12 04:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

1. In thinking of WILLPOWER/G.O.D.-power, and self-control. The first thing that comes to mind is empathy--entering fully through imagination: I choose (will) to rid myself of egotistic impulses. I also choose to identify myself with persons and causes I support that come to my attention.

Just think. If everyone took their ideas of what ego is, and what is good for them and the world, what would change? Isn't that the current state of the world as we are experiencing it now?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

3. Humanity--a dysfunctional family addicted to power, control and money--after struggling through decades of what I think of as rogue somatology and psychology--has only just now begun come back into harmony. Now, guided by pneumatology, we are ready to know and to explore this greatest human strength--WILLPOWER and its product self-control.

Just begun? I think the establishment of the first church represented a similar thought in following the example of the humanitarianisms displayed by Jesus whom everyone claimed was the perfect example of God walking.

It's all a matter of perspective isn't it...
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/07/12 09:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
1. ... I think we believe what we believe because that is what we need to believe...
2. ... open minded discussion, tends to have the effect of strengthening those beliefs.
3. I think it would be an interesting exercise if Rev and TT were to change sides and each defend the other's viewpoint
Stimulating thoughts, Bill. I respond:

1. Belief? Faith? As I understand it, "believing in God" without evidence, is like having a strong wish--wishful and child-like thinking--that there is a god. It is nothing more than an opinion. Faith has a similar meaning. In this sense of the words: As a unitheist I do not believe, and I have no need to believe, that there is a god, or gods.

THE UNITHEIST THEORY (explanation of G0D)
This theory, which includes the idea of G0D as behind TOE is built on the solid somatological foundation we call evolution. As a theory it definitely does have a role to play in science and stands to be accepted, or rejected.

The physical, mental and spiritual connection came together in the 1930's and 1940's with the mathematical and philosophical writings of A.N. Whitehead, a mathematician, a philosopher and a friend of Bertrand Russell--an atheist in so far as he rejected the god with dimensions, as do unitheists. Interestingly, Whitehead was obviously a unitheist. He collaborated with Russell and wrote PRINCIPLES OF MATHEMATICS.

UNITHEISM AND THE PROCESS THEOLOGY OF A.N. WHITEHEAD
Whitehead then went on to develop process philosophy and theology. Later it was developed by the Rev. Charles Hartshorne and called panentheism. Out of this came the simpler and less-confusing term unitheism (See the group on Facebook, now 40 members, started by Warren Farr, an artist and me just a few weeks ago) http://www.facebook.com/groups/unitheism/

To evolution, unitheism adds the dimensions of mind and spirit. And why not?

Along with a new physics it is apparent that a new psychology--especially since the re-discovery of pneumatology (William James, Karl Jung and the like)--is pointing the way to our evolving, mentally and spiritually and not just bilogically.

To those who say: "I believe in God.", I say: I respect your beliefs as I do your opinions.

However, if you expect me to take them as evidence of a valid and serious theory (explanation)--like, for example, the theory of evolution--you will need to present your thesis, do the research and experiments necessary, and publish the evidence, the proofs, for all to see.

2. When I was very young, I believed, very gingerly (because of the pain and trauma I suffered in my early childhood), in what I was told was called God.

When I lucked out and got to university, open-minded discussion eventually led me stop believing and to start theorizing (looking for explanations) to find the best possible explanation for the existence of what we call the cosmos and all that is within it. I am very interested in following those who--using the LHC--large hydron collider, at the CERN--center for nucelar research (on the Swiss/France border)--are theorizing about the TOE--theory of everything.

See the book, THE UNIVERSE ON A T-SHIRT, by Dan Falk. http://www.danfalk.ca/universe-on-a-t-shirt-the-quest-for-the-theory-of-everything.

In my opinion, the TOE and G0D, now in the form of a company, G0D & Co., unLTD is in the business of understanding the nature and function of chaos, out of which it has already demonstrated--just take look at the earth and the cosmos--that mass is possible.

Anyone--with even a quantum of agape-based love, or good willpower, to contribute--is now welcome to join G0D & Co., unLTD. in the eternal process of creation.

3. Defend TT's position? I wonder why he has stopped signing in as a genius? Other than that, I have very little idea what his position really is.

TT, are you connected with any kind of Christian group--large or small? What is your main ideology (set of doctrine, body of opinions)? I assume that Ellis still is an open-minded atheist, eh Ellis? What of the other readers?

Me? I repeat: I am a unitheistic theorist. My empathy, agape-love--good willpower to all.

Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/07/12 09:54 PM
FROM WARREN FARR AND LINDSAY G. KING--FACEBOOK

"Unitheism is the belief that ultimate reality is encountered in life and nature, and to the extent truth is known all faiths are one, in cosmic mode expanding to encompass all positive life systems."
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/07/12 10:21 PM
.................................Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947)

William Ernest Hocking was a member of the Department of Philosophy at Harvard which invited Alfred North Whitehead, the British mathematician and philosopher of natural sciences, to come to these shores in 1924.

He received word that he was being asked to teach not mathematics—which had been the subject he had taught for 40 years—but philosophy, the field of his concentrated thought expressed in such of his books as The Philosophy of Physical Nature . To his wife, Whitehead exclaimed, “There is nothing in the world that I would rather do.”
When they arrived in the Harvard Square community in 1924, an astonishing transformation took place with respect to his pro ductivity. He delivered a series of Lowell Lectures on Science and the Modern World in 1925. Following this classic work, he delivered in the very next year Lowell Lectures on Religion in the Making.

This little book abounds with aphoristic wisdom and insight, containing phrases such as the movement from God the Void, to God the Enemy, to God the Companion. The following year saw the publication of Symbolism: Its Meaning and Effect . Only two years later, in 1929, his magnum opus arrived: Process and Reality: An Essay in Cosmology . In the very same year, two other volumes by him were published: The Function of Reason is one; the other is a gathering of essays on The Aims of Education . Other works followed.

Born in 1861, Alfred was the son of an Anglican clergyman who was head of a private school. He was educated in the classical mode: ancient languages, classical authors, mathematics and the Bible, which was read in Greek. In addition to his formal courses at Trinity College, University of Cambridge, his higher education was vigorously advanced by membership in an undergraduate group called The Apostles, which engaged in incessant conversation on matters pertaining to the whole of cultural life. Started by Tennyson in 1820, The Apostles met at 10 on Saturday evening and continued to anytime Sunday morning.

Whitehead’s marriage to Evelyn Willoughby added immensely to his aesthetic sensitivity; she taught him that beauty is the aim of exis tence. A biography of Bertrand Russell describes Russell’s enduring but unrequited love for Evelyn Whitehead. The Whiteheads had three chil dren, one of whom was shot down during World War I. Their daughter long was a familiar sight in Harvard Square. The other son taught at the Harvard Business School, and Mrs. T. North Whitehead, his wife, is a person with whom I worked as a member and officer of the Cam bridge Historical Society.

Alfred North Whitehead’s thought, as seen in his published writ ings, falls into three main periods. Mathematics and logic engaged his primary attention from the end of the nineteenth century to World War I. He wrote A Treatise on Universal Algebra , then the monumental Principia Mathematica with Russell—“a landmark in the study of logic”—as well as a popular University Library Introduction to Mathematics .

From 1917 until he left for Harvard, Whitehead’s focus was the philosophy of physical nature. He wrote The Organization of Thought: Educational and Scientific, An Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Natural Knowledge, The Concept of Nature , and The Principle of Relativity .
His third period, the Harvard years, dealt with cosmology, meta physics and civilization. What Whitehead’s thought has contributed to civilization may be surmised by the concluding sentence of Charles Hartshorne’s interpretation of Whitehead’s metaphysics:

“The basic principles of our knowledge and experience, physical, biological, sociological, aesthetic, religious, are in this philosophy given an intellectual integration such as only a thousand years or ten thou sand years of further reflection and inquiry seem likely to exhaust or adequately evaluate, but whose wide relevance and, in many respects, at least comparative accuracy some of us think can already be dis cerned.”

As you contemplate the wisdom offered to us by Alfred North Whitehead, listen to a few of his bold words concerning God:

[Very UNITHEISTIC]:
[size]God is the ideal companion, the mirror which discloses to every creature its own greatness.

God is not to be treated as an exception to all metaphysical principles, invoked to save their collapse.
God is their chief exemplification.

God is the beginning and the end.
God is dipolar.

It is as true to say that God is one and the World many, as that the World is one and God many.
It is as true to say that God creates the World, as that the World creates God.

God is the great companion—the fellow-sufferer who understands.

We find here the final application of the doctrine of objective immortality. Our immediate actions perish and yet live for evermore.

God is in the world, or nowhere, creating continually in us and around us. This creative principle is everywhere, in animate and so-called inanimate matter, in the ether, water, earth, human hearts.

Creation is a continuing process. Insofar as we partake of this creative process we partake of the divine, of God, and that participation is our immortality.

Our true destiny as cocreator in the universe is our dignity and grandeur.
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 12:35 AM
What is 'open- mindedness'? Am I open-minded about the existence of God? Probably not. I don't believe that there is a god so I am not open-minded about it. If I were I would, as I have said many times, be an agnostic. I am tolerant of the beliefs, or lack thereof, in others and do not seek to convert them to my point of view, but I prefer my own!

As I result of that position I am not interested in the curlicues and intricacies of the process of religious argument. The debating points of deities, angels on pins and theists and all the other myriad of differences in 'isms' come from religions and I do not find a need to believe in any of them. I find reading about religion fascinating but I am not open-minded about belief. I am not a believer.
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 01:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

3. Defend TT's position? I wonder why he has stopped signing in as a genius? Other than that, I have very little idea what his position really is.

That would be obvious.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

TT, are you connected with any kind of Christian group--large or small? What is your main ideology (set of doctrine, body of opinions)? I assume that Ellis still is an open-minded atheist, eh Ellis? What of the other readers?

I'm connected with all that is.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 03:42 AM
From TT I hear
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
... That (I, RevLGK, have little idea what TT's position really is) would be obvious.
TT, it seems, has given up claiming he is a genius. To me, this sounds like a good idea.

Then he adds: "I'm connected with all that is." I could be wrong, but this sounds to me like the starting point of understanding the theory of unitheism.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 04:13 AM
Words I hear from Ellis
Originally Posted By: Ellis
... I am not open-minded about the existence of God ... I am tolerant of the beliefs, or lack thereof, in others...do not seek to convert them to my point of view, but I prefer my own!
... I find reading about religion fascinating, but I am not open-minded about believing in a god. I am not a believer.
I accept what you say and agree with the point you make. I, too, have come to a place reached long ago where, without strong evidence to the contrary, I have no intention ever believing in the god illusion. I associate such a 'belief' with wishful thinking.

However, I have enough personal experience and evidence in the practical results of willpower to continue to explore the theory of unitheism, which includes willpower.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 03:25 PM
Arriving in LA on a high profile visit, a bishop was surrounded by reporters. One asked: Have you come to see the nightclubs? The bishop replied: Are there any nightclubs?

The following morning’s papers carried the headlines:

Bishop’s first question: “Are there any nightclubs”

Carefully read the following quotes, and tell me if you thing my feeling of empathy with that bishop is misplaced.

Quote:
….even in what purports to be open minded discussion, tends to have the effect of strengthening those beliefs.


Quote:
... open minded discussion, tends to have the effect of strengthening those beliefs.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 03:34 PM
Quote:
Then he adds: "I'm connected with all that is." I could be wrong, but this sounds to me like the starting point of understanding the theory of unitheism.


I think you are absolutely right there, Rev, you could be wrong! laugh
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
From TT I hear
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
... That (I, RevLGK, have little idea what TT's position really is) would be obvious.
TT, it seems, has given up claiming he is a genius. To me, this sounds like a good idea.

Then he adds: "I'm connected with all that is." I could be wrong, but this sounds to me like the starting point of understanding the theory of unitheism.
I still see the signature at the bottom of my posts. If you don't, then I guess it might be a relief to those who find it an affront to their measure of worth.

Unitheism as you mention is the theory/belief of union with God. An ism... What is superior to theory and isms, is the actual union or Being... where you are "THAT"
"I am That". tat tvam asi or "Thou are that", These are called Mahavakyas or statements of Truth in Sanskrit. The living embodiment of that which was eluded to when Jesus made the statement "I and my Father are one." "What the Father sees in me I see in the Father."

That living experience preceded all Christian faiths, or faith of any name, in their ideals and isms. It is the reality of what Bills signature (the quote from the Gita written several thousand years before Christianity emerged as a religion) is pointing toward. The human experience gave testimony to its reality which later became religious belief, doctrine or a body of opinion by those who imagined what was described but failed to draw the imagination into experience.

The difference between religious isms, ideology, doctrines or bodies of opinion being that the underlying reality is not hidden like it is in theory. It is the very existence that all that is, is... and is the foundation of all experience. That is what I experience as myself, and all that I experience is a reflection of that...
It has been, and is.. the stable unchanging foundation of all my changing thoughts feelings and actions for all of my lifetimes.
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 06:31 PM
Is there a way to create a custom avatar on this site?
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 07:22 PM
Looking at the recent posting history I find myself wondering if RAGG (religion) or even GAGG (God) might be candidates for replacing SAGG.

I acknowledge my contribution to this situation, and in an attempt to redress the balance I withdraw, at least temporarily, from this thread, and will perhaps give some thought to starting another of a more scientific nature.

As a parting consideration I leave you with the questions:

Should religions carry a government health warning?

Should churches bear a notice that says “BEWARE OF THE GOD”?

Just a thought?
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 10:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
... Unitheism as you mention is the theory/belief of union with God.
Not quite true. The quote you mentioned comes from Warren Farr's words on Facebook. And, as a unitheist, he has the freedom to use his own words. They are not my words.

NO DOGMA INTENDED
At this point, my theory/explanation of G0D is as follows: In my humble opinion (IMHO) G0D is the sum total of that which is physical and metaphysical and is powered by willpower--the greatest human strength.

TT, if you know that you have what you call...
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
What is superior to theory and isms, is the actual union or Being... where you are "THAT" "I am That". ... "... the stable unchanging foundation of all my changing thoughts feelings and actions for all of my lifetimes
All I can say is: Name it what you will, it sounds like unitheism to me.
Meanwhile, I think that, for now, I will follow the example of Bill S: I will absent myself from this thread and, maybe, even go slow in the Philosophy of Religions ... thread which, thanks to all involved, now has over 3, 200, 000 hits.
One final note: With help of the book, WILLPOWER, by Baumeister and Tierney, it looks like 'willpower' has now become a legitimate science. If so, I for one say Thank G0D, president of G.0.D & Co., UnLimited.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/08/12 11:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... As a parting consideration I leave you with the questions:

Should religions carry a government health warning?
Yes! The warning could be: "Beware of false theocratic, and definitely undemocratic religions.

False religions like to use false names under the general headings of: Judaeo/Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Secularism and the like.

FALSE RELIGIONS ARE ALL UNDEMOCRATIC AND THEOCRATIC
You will recognize false religions more by what they do than what they say they believe. The leaders are all worshippers of the gods of Power, Control, and Money, which they advocate must be in the hands of the few. The many are expected to obey, pray and pay.

Churches should be required to post this on their church signs: "BE AWARE, USE YOUR G0D-LIKE WILLPOWER! ASK QUESTIONS”
Thanks for you stimulus, Bill S!

Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/09/12 03:18 AM
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
... Unitheism as you mention is the theory/belief of union with God.
Not quite true. The quote you mentioned comes from Warren Farr's words on Facebook. And, as a unitheist, he has the freedom to use his own words. They are not my words.

They were the words you used in your post. If that was not what you were intending to convey perhaps you should not quote others as you in dialogue..
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

At this point, my theory/explanation of G0D is as follows: In my humble opinion (IMHO) G0D is the sum total of that which is physical and metaphysical and is powered by willpower--the greatest human strength.

God then without human intervention is powerless and without substance. Basically what you are saying is God is the sum total of human belief in reality, and that a god that is not democratically created or worshipped is not God.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

TT, if you know that you have what you call...
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
What is superior to theory and isms, is the actual union or Being... where you are "THAT" "I am That". ... "... the stable unchanging foundation of all my changing thoughts feelings and actions for all of my lifetimes
All I can say is: Name it what you will, it sounds like unitheism to me.

Well you believe God is human willpower. That is not what underlies belief or humanity or the universe.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Meanwhile, I think that, for now, I will follow the example of Bill S: I will absent myself from this thread and, maybe, even go slow in the Philosophy of Religions ... thread which, thanks to all involved, now has over 3, 200, 000 hits.

With very few finding interest enough to participate, other than to speak of the weather and sex manuals. (Bills most recent post there...)
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/09/12 04:18 AM
My pug is called Will. 'Nuff said!
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/09/12 03:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Ellis
My pug is called Will. 'Nuff said!


If you love and feed your Will, does your Will always obey your commands?
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/10/12 05:28 PM
IF we use the reverends example of willpower, where everyone let democracy rule God, with all of the diverse belief systems and beliefs in God, which will would prevail?

Will does not in and of itself discern between good and evil but rather follows the beliefs of those who feel righteous with their idea of God.

So in the spirit of Jihad, having the will to strap a bomb on ones back and walking into a crowded mall manifests itself as easily as someone who believes God is giving where a little old lady bakes a cake and gives it to her neighbor.

Where democracy prevails in the beliefs of God there are groups within groups within groups who all get together and democratically determine which God is righteous. Which is why there are so many different churches/diocese within a religion of name.

Put two differing opinions of will into play and everyone believes their God is more powerful and will gain the upper hand.
Where God's name has been used along with righteousness we have as an example, the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, witch hunts, Jihads and every other war remembered and not remembered.

God then becomes a struggle of wills to gain the upper hand, and while the will of human belief perpetuates itself in belief and delusion the universe continues regardless.

Obviously the will of a greater intelligence is working where some get what they want sometimes, and others find their idea of God subject to change in accord with the unfolding chaos which is outside of ones ideal.


I guess God can please all of the people some of the time and live in accord with their randomly successful wills.. Some of the people all of the time, where ones will seems to be in accord with the unfolding universe.. and pleasing all of the people all of the time would be the failing of God due to the divergent wills that follow beliefs outside of God's will, which would be other than democratic process of human beliefs in God.

If we look at the psychologically divergent programs that are fed to us thru public school systems, changing democratic political views of states and nations, religion, family policy and even medical beliefs scientific and holistic the mind has to discern which idea to will into superiority.

If one is lucky to find a box to organize ones self into without some kind of change to affect the box, then ones will will follow the appearance of order. But as long as one is at odds with a universe of change, where one tries to hold onto a particular thought or belief then will will follow change, not only on the surface of the mind but at unconscious levels of belief and acceptance.

We have a cold and flu season for humans. Animals I think are a bit more innocent and have not impose such a will upon themselves.

Will then applied to God I think is superstition.

Will, applied to healing ones self, is subject to the programs which willed the dis-ease of the body into being in the first place. Generally the thoughts are toward healing the symptoms but as in the medical professions the cause often escapes the mind.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/10/12 07:40 PM
I would like to move this to the PHILOSOPHY Thread, OK>
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/22/12 06:23 PM
I am briefly returning to this thread with two questions that have nothing to do with the OP.

1. I echo TT's question: "Is there a way to create a custom avatar on this site?"

2. Ellis, could you post a picture of Will? We'd love to see him.
Posted By: Revlgking Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/22/12 10:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
I am briefly returning to this thread with two questions that have nothing to do with the OP.

1. I echo TT's question: "Is there a way to create a custom avatar on this site?"

2. Ellis, could you post a picture of Will? We'd love to see him.

===========================================
Bill S, let us know if you get the answers you wanted? laugh
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/23/12 01:30 AM
Unfortunately I can't give you a photo of Will for two excellent reasons.

!) I don't know how, (but I bet he does).

2) He is already convinced he's gorgeous and owns the world so we do not need to encourage him.

On the good side- as a result of proper treatment he is no longer bald pug, but a moth-eaten one. He looks a bit raffish. Believe me it's an improvement!

Hi Rev.
(We will ALL be in trouble for off-topic now.)
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/23/12 03:20 AM
While we are off topic; my wife says if you give Will 1,000ml of evening primrose oil per day it will work wonders for his coat, joints and heart. You can get it in capsule form.

Don't tell TFF, though. smile
Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/23/12 03:44 AM
Good idea. I am a moderate fan of Evening Primrose too!

He has Cushing's Disease which could account for his very sanguine nature as it is an excess of cortisone as in steroid. It also causes hairloss.

That was vaguely scientific really!
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/23/12 03:07 PM
Congratulations on having a "vaguely scientific" pug; so you could post his pic without being off topic. smile
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/31/12 04:53 PM
I posted two new threads at the same time, both based on, and linked to, the same article.
One included God in the title, the other did not.
Comparing the two over the same period of time produced the following figures.
G = God, NG = Not God.

From about 01.00 pm yesterday to about 06.30 am today.

Posts: G = 11
NG = 3

Posters: G = 4
NG = 2 (another 1 since)

Average length of posts: G = 5 lines
NG = 2.25 lines

Draw any conclusions you wish.
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/31/12 05:07 PM
Regarding posts referring to God... How many of them were specific to an idea of what God was and what God wasn't?

Does your attention to this subjective/objective survey point to a natural desire to know God, or the tendency to react toward the personal opinion and stress related judgment and objection of the word/subject of God itself?

If this were a scientific study would it be in reference to God "The Word" or the subjective beliefs in whether God was real or not to the individual personality?

Personally I don't think there is enough here to draw any conclusions.

But I'm sure it will inspire plenty of opinions and certainly draw the reverend here to explain the invention of his word G-0-D.. smile
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/31/12 06:56 PM
Quote:
Regarding posts referring to God... How many of them were specific to an idea of what God was and what God wasn't?


I think that is a distinction that is more appropriate to some other threads.

Quote:
Does your attention to this subjective/objective survey point to a natural desire to know God, or the tendency to react toward the personal opinion and stress related judgment and objection of the word/subject of God itself?


I would be reluctant to grace it with the title “survey”, nor would I impute to it anything of the depth you seem to be looking for.

Quote:
Personally I don't think there is enough here to draw any conclusions.


Agreed, but the invitation remains. smile

Quote:
But I'm sure it will inspire plenty of opinions and certainly draw the reverend here to explain the invention of his word G-0-D


“Get thou behind me, Satan!
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/31/12 06:58 PM
TT, I've just noticed the reason for your edit. I wish I had thought of that!
Posted By: Tutor Turtle Re: Does god have a role in science? - 01/31/12 10:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill S.


Quote:
But I'm sure it will inspire plenty of opinions and certainly draw the reverend here to explain the invention of his word G-0-D


“Get thou behind me, Satan!

Posted By: Ellis Re: Does god have a role in science? - 02/01/12 12:07 AM

The cats should have the last word-- Perhaps in tongues!

TT is right! We need to define terms if we wish to draw conclusions.
Posted By: Bill S. Re: Does god have a role in science? - 02/01/12 01:24 AM


I always have the last word, and my tongue has everything to do with it!

Actually, I normally have the last word at about five o'cock in the morning!!!!! Usually something like "I'm wet! fix it!
Or, "my mouse escaped, it's under your bed!! Fix it!
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