Life is a natural condition of life, given the proper conditions.

The proper condition for life is a singular event early in the geologic history of all Earth type bodies. That singular event is the creation and transportation of H20.

Shortly after the Earth gave up trying to become a sun and settled on being a planet, the surface of the Earth solidified. This triggered a singular geological moment of creation. The density, pressure, and heat generated by still a cooling planet and likely volcanism, combined two trapped hydrogen atoms with a solid oxygen atom and the Earth's first water molecule formed. Once began, this process would accelerate and continue until all the available hydrogen is depleted, or the temp changed significantly.
The fact that most of our planet's water is H20 is significant evidence of point of origin. Look at the water molecules in comets. We see large amounts of deuterium, which is what you should expect to find when water molecules form in unshielded space and thus under constant bombardment from UV radiation. This UV rich environment produces a variant hydrogen molecule. Instead of H20 you have D20, or more commonly known as heavy water.

Most of our water was created in an environment free from massive amounts of UV radiation, which strongly suggest that our water was formed here in the Earth and safely shielded from UV radiation. .

My advice. In the search for extraterrestrial life ... check da Ice. If you have D20, move on. If you find H20 in large amounts of ice or liquid, life is likely nearby, as the dynamic process that creates H20 is a necessary condition for life ... perhaps the only necessary condition for life.

It is the process of creating and transporting the bodies water that finally, though briefly by geologic measure, puts the odds of life happening ... in life's favor.
For the first time in the history of the planet, not to mention several stars, all the building blocks for life are in dynamic solution. All the natural organics, acids, and sugars brought to us in comets and the aggregate that formed our planet is finally, once and for all, ready to be used. All you need now is found underground. A shield for UV radiation, H20, pressure, density, and heat.

Life is likely born in a porous matrix of volcanic rock. At this moment in geologic history most of the Earth's sub surface is porous volcanic rock, with massive amounts of newly created water being pumped through those pores. Think of all those billions, perhaps trillions of pours as individual self running experiments, or the Earth's own beakers. Each pour would be periodically infused with a natural volcanic solution of dissolved minerals, random numbers of single cell acids, naturally combining aminos, and all the other natural organics. The pours capture and hold naturally combining short clumps of acids, then adds to those short clumps with successive baths of solution. This is how you could hold short strings of aminos and eventually build the long chains of acids necessary for life. With all those trillions of beakers, and the few hundred million years needed to transport most of the planets water to the surface, you could expect to build the right chains ... once. AT the end of this moment of water creation you either have life or you don't. So you better be large enough to sustain the process long enough.

correction: The first sentence of my post should read:

"Life is a natural condtion of mater, given the proper conditions." sorry

[quote=Mike Kremer]

Wow,
Thomas J Gassett, you echo my own thoughts almost exactly, when you state that "Life is a natural condition of matter, given the proper conditions"

Furthermore, I am certain that it was the natural inter-molecular affinity of the different (chemical) surfaces interacting with each other using their atomic surface forces, that almost certainly governed the beginnings of early life upon this Earth, and elsewhere in the Universe.

That, put into context with your interesting post regarding the natural building blocks of organic acids, CO2, and sugars, heated and shielded underground, from UV radiation. As you mention...do put the odds of life happening ... in life's favor.

I fail to see how ultraviolet radiation would produce deuterium. Since deuterium is hydrogen plus a neutron, and ultraviolet radiation is not a neutron stream. Now, if you have a neutron strain, say, from some decaying radionuclides in association with the water, I could see deuterium being produced. But not from ultraviolet radiation, which is electromagnetic waves.

I fail to see how ultraviolet radiation would produce deuterium. Since deuterium is hydrogen plus a neutron, and ultraviolet radiation is not a neutron stream.>>>

Deuterium emits a telltale spectral fingerprint in the ultraviolet energy range. An important, but often-overlooked process is radiation-induced isotope enrichment. In studies of electron-beam induced processing of ice surfaces, they have measured large isotope effects leading to enrichment of deuterium in the condensed phase. Clearly UV can and does enrich hydroden to produce large amounts of deuterium.

Lots of things have a tell tale spectral fingerprint in the UV spectrum. That does not mean you can produce neutrons by irradiating them with UV. If that were possible, all we would have to do to gain fuel for nuclear reactors would be to UV irradiate some stuff and get neutrons in the nuclei to make a radioactive material. I still don't buy your theory that UV irradiation makes neutrons happen. There may be a reason why comets (and we don't have a great deal of experience with them, so the ones we have sampled could be flukes) are heavier with deuterium than Earth water, but you can't say with confidence that they are all heavy with deuterium.

Lots of things have a tell tale spectral fingerprint in the UV spectrum. That does not mean you can produce neutrons by irradiating them with UV.>>

So, what do you think having a spectral fingerprint in the UV spectrum means? Why couldn't the electromagnetic waves from UV add a neutron to hydrogen? I've already shown that radition can enrich deuterium. Also, electrolysis is a way to add that neutron ... lest we forget.

As to comets. The question about comets is did those large amounts of deuterium form with the water molicules, or did it build up over time? Remember, the comets we see today have been in unshield space for billions of years longer than the comets that that may have contributed to our water.

That does not mean you can produce neutrons by irradiating them with UV. If that were possible, all we would have to do to gain fuel for nuclear reactors would be to UV irradiate some stuff and get neutrons in the nuclei to make a radioactive material.>>

I might agree IF reactor fuel had a telltail spectral fingerprint in the ultraviolet energy range.>> Since it doesn't there is no reason to assume UV would have the same effect on reactor fuel as it does on hydrogen.

Why we think it took comets or asteroids to bring water and the building blocks of life to Earth escapes me. Turn the clock back to when everything in this solar system began as a dust cloud cast off from several dead stars. Most of that cloud became our sun. Everything from Mercury to the Ort cloud formed from the remnants. There is nothing special about comets. The processes that formed water on comets formed water on Earth. The same processes that formed all the natural organics in comets formed natural organics in the aggregate that became our planet. When all these 'exciting life giving, water creating things' formed in comets they were forming in the aggregate that made our planet. And, just having all these organics get you no where near life. You need these building blocks for life in dynamic solution. A volcanic process on a planetary scale, not one dependant on the odd rock from space. I repeat, there is nothing in comets or like bodies that wasn't already in the Earth.

TJG: "I repeat, there is nothing in comets or like bodies that wasn't already in the Earth"

- Except, perhaps, for that heavy water.

Interesting topic. Re Earth's water, you describe the new direction that thinking is taking, supported as it is by recent discoveries (pending further evidence, of course):

"Earth's Water Probably Didn't Come From Comets"
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/comet/news98.html

"WHERE DID EARTH'S WATER COME FROM?" Nov 2001
http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2001AM/finalprogram/abstract_26225.htm

"Earth's water brewed at home, not in space" Sep 2007
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12693

The objection to this view has been that the free hydrogen would have been quickly lost, while the oxygen would have been bound in rocks, leaving little of either available to produce water.

Thanks for contributing redewnur.

The objection to this view has been that the free hydrogen would have been quickly lost, while the oxygen would have been bound in rocks, leaving little of either available to produce water. >>


I think this example supports my position that trapped hydrogen, under presure and heat from a still cooling planet and likely volcanism combined with solid oxygen. The process must have happened underground.

"Earth's water brewed at home, not in space" Sep 2007
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12693


If the planets were still submerged in a thick hydrogen-rich solar nebula after they formed, as our Japanese brothers suggest, then it's not much of a stretch to imagine that every void in the Earth's porous sub surface would be filled with ... hydrogen. Volcanic action would open and close those voids trapping hydrogen underground and subject to density, pressure, and heat. With all that solid oxygen nearby ... you get water.

This would solve the biggest problem with my theory ... putting enough hydrogen underground with the solid oxygen.

Yes, it seems to be a good theory, supportable by evidence, rather than merely a vague hypothesis - if one makes the assumption that the solar wind had not already removed most of the hydrogen from the inner Solar System.

The voids you speak of could have been large and numerous during the earlier stages of accretion, when gravity, and therefore compaction, was low. It's not difficult to imagine that much of the trapped hydrogen had sufficient time to combine with oxygen before the remainder was forced to the surface.

>N Q S ALERT<

Would it be true to say that all the water (salt and fresh) on the Earth is as much as there will ever be? Although it gets recyled through natural processes, this is all we have- it's finite.

This is argued by some environmentalists here in Oz, and believe me, today, what with the heat (45.5 C) and atmospheric dryness, (the air feels crisp and friable), I am ready to believe them!

45 1/2 degrees! How do you manage to keep cool? That's about 114°F, for those of us in America. That's how hot it got in Dallas, Texas one year. Do you go around in wet clothing and get evaporative cooling? I hope you get some rain soon to cool it down a little. That's too hot for even my southern blood.

heh-heh


Practically, yes. At least, King Tut, were he alive today, wouldn't notice a difference. We are said to be receiving regular deliveries from space, but although they're big numbers on paper, they're really...well, a drop in the ocean

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/questions/question/1751/

In view of population growth (? +30% by 2050), there's serious concern about the limited amount of fresh water in the world, the fact that it's not equally available to all, and the potential for suffering and conflict which that portends. But that's another matter.

What does an >NQS< alert mean? Let's take a dump on this board?
Why not post the petulant child's board instead?

I am sorry I upset you Mr Gassett. I usually do not post on the 'real' science bits, and was once criticised for posting a non-scientific thing (which is scarcely surprising as I am not scientific). So it was an in-joke, as Rede acknowledged.

My post was a general query, that probably was a bit off-topic, but one which has, apparently, a rather chilling answer.

I heard an interesting comment given last week by a speaker for Australia Day. It was that when (only 230 years ago), the British came to colonise this coutry all the available potable water was discovered and being used. Unlike the US no large lakes or inland rivers were ever found. So water is a worry here! We have severe water use restrictions which mean virtually no watering of gardens.

A R--- It's awful weather indeed. January's rainfall so far is I ml! This morning is already again over 40 C and rising. We are air-conditioned inside the house, but the electricity has been failing, the railways have gone into rail meltdown, the Tennis Grand Slam players have been keeling over, you can't sleep, there's the threat of bush fires and my dog is refusing to go outside!! I guess it's like an ice-storm, or any other extreme weather -- you just endure it, but the scary thing is that it is predicted that we will certainly have more summers like this.

I'll tell you what, Ellis. I'll ship half my cold air to you in exchange for half your hot air. That way we should both be comfortable!

Done!

My drinking water is bombarded by UV light continuously in order to kill bacteria. And I drink apple cider treated with UV light. Should I be worried?

Apparently not. From what I've googled, I understand that UV treatment applies specific wavelengths to target the DNA of micro-organisms, rendering them incapable of reproduction. There's no chemical change in the irradiated liquid. It doesn't require high intensity, and such devices have been in use by aquarists for many decades, as a non-polluting 24/7 means of protecting their fish from pathogens.

Yeah, the UV from a 25 watt bulb is comparable to the UV in unsheilded space. And somebody tell stupid that UV effects water molicules as they form. Oh, and no one with two undamaged brain cells thinks drinking heavy water is something to worry about.

Anon has raised an interesting point, despite himself:

D2O is not radioactive and, assuming you could lay your hands on some, it would not be easy to poison yourself with it. But experiments suggest that if you were to consume large amounts over the course of many days, sufficient to replace at least 25% of your body fluid, you would probably succeed in sterilising yourself and damaging your bone marrow.

Heavy water also has this unusual effect:

"D2O is the only “chemical” agent that consistently affects the frequency of circadian oscillations"

http://www.pnas.org/content/70/7/2037.abstract

P.S. Tritium is the radioactive isotope.

Anon has raised an interesting point, despite himself:>>>

Anon must be Thomas J, as he's a bit too defensive for the casual reader.

It's beyond arrogant to insist UV effects water molecules as they form (in a UV rich environment), when we know no such thing. However, it is beginning to look like he just might be right.
Now that we are looking for deuterium, we find it everywhere we expect to see water molecules, not just comets. Where we don't see it ... we believe it's still there, just covered in the dust particles of gas clouds. What caused this ... we still don't know, but UV radiation is a candidate. Keep an eye on this one, people. If it turns out Thomas is right about UV, his thoughts on life will be taken very seriously.

It's beyond arrogant to insist UV effects water molecules as they form.>

So, what's beyond arrogant?

If it turns out Thomas is right about UV, his thoughts on life will be taken very seriously.>

First, if I'm right about UV, I'm right about where our water came from, not life.
Second, If it turns out that cosmic radiation from supernovas, not UV, is the cause of all that deuterium, I'm still right about where our water came from.
Last, as to life. The hundreds of billions, perhaps trillions of self running experiments, that I describe, is the only way life could ever self-assemble, and should be taken 'very seriously' now! Maybe it's beyond arrogant to be the first to get the process right ... and to know it?

I'm missing the natural selection factor here. Please note feasible mechanism of life formation proposed by AWT

I'm missing the natural selection factor here.>>

There is no natural selection, as such, at least not yet.
Both your process and mine are systems designed to allow life to eventually self assemble. I do it underground in porous volcanic rock with random numbers of aminos. You do it on the surface of the planet at the edge of a sea or large body of water. The problem with your system is dealing with all the inherent chaos, that AWT seems to miss. Things like no appreciable sunlight would even reach the ground. The wave action, your system needs didn't exist, at least in the way AWT imagines. There is no wind. Just storms that would change the pressure but not make waves.

Without an atmosphere your experiment for life would be under constant bombardment from UV radiation. UV destroys the bonds between aminos making it impossible to build the long chains of amino acids necessary for life. Then you have things like rain falling to Earth without an atmosphere to slow it down. Your experiment for life would be smashed to bits by ballistic rain drops, or pounded out of existence by the almost constant bombardment from remnants of the early solar system. Your system simply lacks the elegance of my system. Everything in my system is part of the process. While you have a workable process in your system, you have far too much chaos to make it work.
I am intrigued by your 'oil' drops and wouldn't be surprise if I eventually steal it and use it to expand my explanation of the processes needed for life. Thanks for contributing!

How did you came into it? Such things cannot happen on planets without presence of life?

..There is no wind. Just storms that would change the pressure but not make waves....>>

Yeah, Zephir, I'm probably wrong on this point. It's just that with no appreciable atmosphere it's hard to imagine the wave action we see today, so early in the planets history. The shoreline is another problem. Would this line exist long enough to build the long chains of aminos needed for life? Shallow seas dry up. Our oceans were likely still growing, well, according to me. For your life experiment to work it would need to run for a very long time, and that shoreline would likely change drastically during the time needed to run the process.

Such things cannot happen on planets without presence of life?
>>>

Yeah, sort of. Without life, nothing on the surface of this planet would be as it is today. Without life, ours would likely be a frozen anaerobic rock. The natural build up of carbon in our seas would have buried our oceans long ago, if life didn't take that carbon and make things like shells, and ultimately rocks like granite, and limestone, even the White Cliffs of Dover. All are the remnants of life. Life may even be responsible for minerals like gold, even our oil, certainly our coal. Life took a very hostile rock and turned it into the Earth we see today. Life is teraformation. Is that a real word?

Isn't it interesting, how people who met with new idea will start to deny it immediatelly - rather then to think about it? Even proponents of evolution will start to behave like religious oponents of Darwin in this moment.

My model od life evolution doesn't depend on aerobic atmosphere, gold, granite or White Cliffs of Dover. They're simply irrelevant to it. On the other hand, things like granite or gold doesn't depend on existence of life. They're apparent formed by inorganic crystals.

Once again, how did you came into it?

Granite is an igneous rock, formed from the cooling of magma, and is nothing to do with life. It is purely an inorganic process. Limestone, yes, it is formed by the compression of shells and other living things that make calcium carbonate skeletons in the sea. Make sure you know what you are talking about before committing it to the screen.

Isn't it interesting, how people who met with new idea will start to deny it immediatelly - rather then to think about it? Even proponents of evolution will start to behave like religious oponents of Darwin in this moment.>>

I hope English is your second language.

My model od life evolution doesn't depend on aerobic atmosphere, gold, granite or White Cliffs of Dover. They're simply irrelevant to it. On the other hand, things like granite or gold doesn't depend on existence of life. They're apparent formed by inorganic crystals.>>

Well, you're right about granite, but then a broken clock is right twice a day. Your model depends on a magic shield against UV radiation, ballistic rain drops, and the almost constant bombardment from the remnants of the early solar system. If you want to be taken seriously deal with these problems ... or come up with another theory.

Once again, how did you came into it? >>

The first time you wrote this 'came to it' stuff I thought it a typo ... now I think it's brain damage, or you've yet to perfect English.


Granite is an igneous rock, formed from the cooling of magma, and is nothing to do with life. It is purely an inorganic process. Limestone, yes, it is formed by the compression of shells and other living things that make calcium carbonate skeletons in the sea.>>

Rose, you and people like you are why I post my ideas. I should know granite is igneous rock. Thanks for the needed slap back to reality. I could swear I read it was like Limestone and the White Cliffs of Dover, but I can't find it to save my life. It's embarrassing to be so completely wrong. Thanks.

Make sure you know what you are talking about before committing it to the screen. >>

Good advice. Oh, this is yours ... right?

"Lots of things have a tell tale spectral fingerprint in the UV spectrum.>>

Name some.

That does not mean you can produce neutrons by irradiating them with UV. If that were possible, all we would have to do to gain fuel for nuclear reactors would be to UV irradiate some stuff and get neutrons in the nuclei to make a radioactive material.

*Make sure you know what you are talking about before committing it to the screen

Of course not, on the contrary. Rain drops or meteorites would violate my model, instead.

Have you understood it at all?In fact third one - but don't try to change subject, please.

You've all displayed your models of how life may have just happened devoid of divine intervention, they may seem viable in theory but are they actually applicable in reality all things considered?

If every legitimate theory humans ever contrive proves a bust, divine intervention will not be on the table, because it is not a legitimate theory. "We don't know" is preferable to "it was magic."

Produce neutrons by irradiating them with UltraViolet.

Now that would be a real miracle. Seeing as how that would require the production of matter from photons.

via email from TJG...

Deuterium emits a telltale spectral fingerprint in the ultraviolet energy range. Why? An important, but often-overlooked process is radiation-induced isotope enrichment. In studies of electron-beam induced processing of ice surfaces, they have measured large isotope effects leading to enrichment of deuterium in the condensed phase.

I'm not talking about a neutron passing from the UV to the water molecule. It's likely that UV simply creates an environment where the hydrogen adds the extra neutron, or It could be a chemical process, or even electrolysis triggered by the UV. Ask yourself, where did that extra neutron come from ... we do know it's there.