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Posted By: Amaranth Rose II Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/26/08 03:27 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/phoenix_mars

We made it! Now to see if there is evidence of life.
Posted By: odin1 Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/26/08 01:59 PM
Amaranth,

wouldn't it be great if a herd of caribou ran in front of the camera?

best regards,
odin1
Actually I'm hoping for some little green men to come popping out of a hole in the ground to investigate the new addition to their lawn.

Actually I'm hoping for some evidence of life, mostly microbial. It shouldn't be too hard to find some complex organic material if they are looking for it. We have bacteria here on Earth that survive in extreme conditions. Why not Mars?

But, yes, a herd of caribou would be nice. And funny.
Posted By: odin1 Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/26/08 08:08 PM
Amaranth,

could you see the look on their face if a little green man skied right by the camera?

I think they will find somekind of life, perhaps even algae or lichen. I think the red planet has many tales to tell. I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing them.

best regards,
odin1
Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/27/08 09:36 PM
Hi Amaranth, odin1, and others.

Ancient Bacterial Microbes that have remained dormant though cryopreservation for thousands, prehaps millions of years, have been found deep in Antartican ice, by the Russians.
The following four "Earthly types" that can survive in extreme cold, or without oxygen, have all been found, revived, and able to resume their normal metabolic activity.
Beauveria bassiana,-Archaea,-M.burtonnii,-and a Penicillium bacteria. As well as other yeast and fungi.

My thoughts are:- Ancient cryopreserved Earth Microbes are one thing.
But just what might the implications be, ....if the same Microbes were found under the frozen Martian soil?

Microbic pictures.
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast12mar98_1.htm
Posted By: odin1 Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/27/08 10:30 PM
Hey Mike,

I think we are going to be surprised, or perhaps assured may be a better word. Mars may not be as dead as we thought.

best regards,
odin1
Posted By: Rallem Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/29/08 08:29 PM
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus
Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/30/08 02:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

[Reply by Mike Kremer]

No, I think NASA are doing the right thing by preparing for a future manned landing on Mars.
Venus has a very dense Carbon Dioxide atmosphere, Sulphuric acid clouds, no Magnetic Poles, very hot, and no water, according to Wiki.
I'd bet that Phoenix does find some earth-like bacteria under the soil. Earthlike because they were probably ejected by ancient earth Volcanoes? Or prehaps a hint that they came in from slushy meteorites, when Mars had an ocean.
If that last sentence is true, -it could mean that the DNA "molecule of life" is present throughout the Universe?
Comment and implication of that?
Its even possible that Mars might have some pockets of water hidden deep within its crust?
I'm very optimistic that positive indicators of life will be found, within the next 4 months.


Posted By: redewenur Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/30/08 03:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

Couldn't agree with that, Rallem. In what way do you see Venus as a 'proper' planet and Mars (I suppose) as an improper planet? As Mike points out, Venus is just too herrendously hostile. The first major success of this mission would be the confirmation of subsurface ice. The next would be finding organic molecules in the ice - although that wouldn't necessarily be evidence that there was ever life on Mars.
Posted By: samwik Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 05/30/08 06:45 AM
Would finding life there on Mars make a big change in our plans to colonize?
confused
Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/02/08 02:35 AM
Originally Posted By: samwik
Would finding life there on Mars make a big change in our plans to colonize?
confused


Reply Mike Kremer

The US plans for colonisation is fixed for around 2020, but if Water/Life is found, I expect, Russia, China,
and Europe will take notice and act.
There has been talk that there is a lot of salt on the surface of Mars. Which may mean that common Earth like microbes as we know them might not be found. Since salt is used as a preservative in our foods.

My thoughts upon this is that, salt, by lowering the freezing point for Microbes might well keep them mobile until the Martian sun returns, to thaw? Remember, there is microbiotic life in our 'Dead Sea'

Below is the latest Phoenix photo showing raw Ice underneath Phoenix!!
Exposed by the retro rockets blowing away the thin top soil.
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA10741
Lets all stay optimistic

Posted By: redewenur Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/02/08 06:44 AM
Originally Posted By: samwik
Would finding life there on Mars make a big change in our plans to colonize?
confused

It's my guess that, while finding microscopic life on Mars would be a major historic event, it would have little or no positive impact on colonisation plans.

On the other hand...access to water, in sufficient quantities for long term use, would surely be an enormous boost to colonisation plans. You can't do much without water, and you can do a great deal with it.

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Below is the latest Phoenix photo showing raw Ice underneath Phoenix!!

Is it ice, or is it rock? We'll have to wait for more data.
Posted By: Rallem Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/02/08 06:51 PM
Originally Posted By: redewenur
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

Couldn't agree with that, Rallem. In what way do you see Venus as a 'proper' planet and Mars (I suppose) as an improper planet? As Mike points out, Venus is just too herrendously hostile. The first major success of this mission would be the confirmation of subsurface ice. The next would be finding organic molecules in the ice - although that wouldn't necessarily be evidence that there was ever life on Mars.


The reason I believe Venus is a proper planet for colonization and Mars is not is that Venus can have a magnetic field if a fast enough rotation were introduced to it. (In theory anyways) The question is, if we could introduce a spin onto Venus, should we make it turn clockwise like the other planets or counter clockwise like it already has a slow rotation? I know the atmosphere of Venus is terribly hostile, but I think the only way to add such a rotation would be to throw a comet almost the size of Mars at it, and if we could ever figure out how to do that I think the comet would force most of the existing atmosphere of Venus into space and hopefully replace it with a hydrogen/nitrogen atmosphere.
Posted By: Rallem Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/02/08 09:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

[Reply by Mike Kremer]

No, I think NASA are doing the right thing by preparing for a future manned landing on Mars.
Venus has a very dense Carbon Dioxide atmosphere, Sulphuric acid clouds, no Magnetic Poles, very hot, and no water, according to Wiki.
I'd bet that Phoenix does find some earth-like bacteria under the soil. Earthlike because they were probably ejected by ancient earth Volcanoes? Or prehaps a hint that they came in from slushy meteorites, when Mars had an ocean.
If that last sentence is true, -it could mean that the DNA "molecule of life" is present throughout the Universe?
Comment and implication of that?
Its even possible that Mars might have some pockets of water hidden deep within its crust?
I'm very optimistic that positive indicators of life will be found, within the next 4 months.




First off I do agree that Venus has too dense an atmosphere, but it does have a magnetic field which simply isn't strong enough to protect the atmosphere from the Sun's radiation. It is believed that the magnetic field of Venus can be strengthened if a fast enough rotation can be attained by Venus. A question I am asking myself is if we could add a spin to planet Venus by hurling comets at it, should we do so to add a faster spin to its already counter clockwise spin or should we try introducing a clockwise spin so Venus would have a similar spin to all of its sibling planets?

As far as the planet of Venus having too much atmospheric pressure of the wrong sorts gasses, I would have to say that I think, that if comets were flung at Venus to introduce a proper spin, it would probably also add huge amounts of hydrogen and nitrogen to Venus’ atmosphere and possibly expel some of the carbon dioxide into outer space. I think that if the comets didn’t expel the carbon dioxide into outer space though and it did add sufficient spin to the planet so that its magnetic field would protect the planet’s atmosphere from further ravages of the Sun and that may help some. Also I think that if huge amounts of carbon dioxide remained then mankind could probably do something to mine that gas and use it somewhere else.
Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/12/08 04:08 PM

Here is the latest picture of Martian ice taken underneath the Phoenix.
It certainly looks like ice. Possibly with its surface refrozen after having been melted by the retro-rocket?
Its a far far better picture in comparison with the one shown just 3 threads above this one.
Now if they can only get a tiny piece past the half opened door of the oven, we will know soon enough?


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080612.html

Posted By: redewenur Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/12/08 05:56 PM
Yes, that's a much more convincing picture. Now what was it they used to say back home?...Oh, yes - "suck it and see".
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/20/08 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


"It must be Martian ice" said Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith, after the white lumps scooped up with the soil disappeared (sublimated or melted). They thought it could be salt, but salt dosn't melt.

****
It seems that ice is pretty hard, and the scoop can't cut into it. (Seems they did'nt think about that? They should have fitted the scoop with a sharp pick)

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/06_19_pr.php

Hopefully we will see some 'before and after' melt pictures soon



Posted By: MikeBinOK Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/21/08 12:57 AM
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/newshour_index.html

As of this writing, at the page above you can download an audio file of a good interview with the lead scientist working on the ice issue. I saw it broadcast on the Jim Lehrer News Hour on PBS in the USA this evening (Friday) and it was well worth listening to. After Monday it may move into archives or something and you might have to hunt for it a bit (I believe the story title was "Ice on Mars", but you'll work it out!
Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/21/08 03:57 AM
Originally Posted By: MikeBinOK
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/newshour_index.html

As of this writing, at the page above you can download an audio file of a good interview with the lead scientist working on the ice issue. I saw it broadcast on the Jim Lehrer News Hour on PBS in the USA this evening (Friday) and it was well worth listening to. After Monday it may move into archives or something and you might have to hunt for it a bit (I believe the story title was "Ice on Mars", but you'll work it out!


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Thanks for that, MikeBinOK.
Had a horrible thought. NASA has'nt actually been able to drop this 'white ice' into Phoenix's oven yet, for the final proof of water.
What if its only frozen C02 Carbon Dioxide? That just evaporates away as well. Doh.



Posted By: MikeBinOK Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/21/08 06:12 AM


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Thanks for that, MikeBinOK.
Had a horrible thought. NASA has'nt actually been able to drop this 'white ice' into Phoenix's oven yet, for the final proof of water.
What if its only frozen C02 Carbon Dioxide? That just evaporates away as well. Doh.



This is the Martian Summer and the temperatures are too "hot" (even though they are far below freezing!) for carbon dioxide to exist in ice form. They're fairly sure it isn't carbon dioxide, and is water ice. Thank goodness!
Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/21/08 06:55 PM
Originally Posted By: MikeBinOK


This is the Martian Summer and the temperatures are too "hot" (even though they are far below freezing!) for carbon dioxide to exist in ice form. They're fairly sure it isn't carbon dioxide, and is water ice. Thank goodness!


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Hi, Yes like yourself and millions of others, we all hope it is water.
Evaporation of any substance in the more rarified atmosphere under less gravity, would complete quicker, whatever the temperature.
I was of the opinion that it was the white substance which had evaporated....Having found a later picture I am not so sure now.

The obljects are bottom left, but in the shade, yet the sunlit
white (salt/C02/ice??)material is still there. Adding to the mystery.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080621.html



Posted By: redewenur Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/22/08 07:07 AM
It is with great pride and a lot of joy that I announce today that we have found proof that this hard bright material is really water ice and not some other substance" - Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080622001541.htm
Posted By: samwik Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/22/08 08:11 AM
Originally Posted By: Mike K.
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

I was of the opinion that it was the white substance which had evaporated....Having found a later picture I am not so sure now.

The objects are bottom left, but in the shade, yet the sunlit
white (salt/C02/ice??)material is still there. Adding to the mystery.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080621.html


CO2 would evaporate easier, but....

I'm wondering if the scraped white surfaces are the exposed top of a large mass of ice, which would keep it cold enough to not evaporate (maybe?), or even keep replenishing the substance. There are some changes. That left-handed semi-circular area near the top of the left trench looks more like wetted soil in the later picture. Maybe mold will start growing. smile

They just look like rock that fell in, off of the side; but....
My thought was that the "discs" which evaporated, were broken chunks, scraped off of the white areas that we see near the top. These fell out of the final scoop, I'm thinking; and not being connected to the cold sub-surface mass anymore, evaporated more easily. Also, I bet as the sol (day) progresses, they would come into direct sunlight too.

IMHO
smile

Hey!
Hasn't a rock moved, ...in the center (slightly above left of center)? It's the one with a distinct shadow on the lower right-hand side. That lump has move lower, relative to the other lumps.

confused

p.s. Maybe the soil subsides somewhat sol-ly.
Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/22/08 11:41 AM
Originally Posted By: redewenur
It is with great pride and a lot of joy that I announce today that we have found proof that this hard bright material is really water ice and not some other substance" - Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080622001541.htm


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


No. We dont doubt that the translucent material under the craft,
and the sand covered lumps in bottom left of the picture is ice.

But we have moved on from there, and are wondering what the thinly spread white material is, -top right in same trench?
Chalk? wink

Posted By: redewenur Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/22/08 12:02 PM
Yes, I've been following the speculation, and it's obvious that you've never doubted it, but it's good see the mission scientists making no premature tabloid style claims, and giving us the facts only when they actually have them.
Posted By: samwik Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/22/08 12:24 PM
Until then, isn't speculation fun?

Mike,
I wasn't speculating on the composition of the disappearing chunks; I agree they're probably ice.

I was speculating on the source of the disappearing chunks; that maybe they were scrapped off from the part that you're now talking about.

As I said, "I'm wondering if the scraped white surfaces are the exposed top of a large mass of ice...."
That is the part you're talking about isn't it; the large flat surfaces at the top of the trenches?
The ones where I said, "That left-handed semi-circular area near the top of the left trench looks more like wetted soil...."
Do you see what I'm trying to describe?
...also....
Do you see the "moved" pebble?

confused
Posted By: redewenur Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/22/08 12:53 PM
Originally Posted By: samwik
Until then, isn't speculation fun?

Yes, of course. It's fun, harmless, and healthy - so is building castles in the air, so long as we don't decide to live in them grin
Posted By: samwik Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/22/08 01:00 PM
Hiya rede,

Any thoughts on the wet spot, or the moving pebble?
Do my descriptions make sense, at least; do you think you know to what I'm referring?

Thanks,
~ smile
Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/22/08 03:41 PM
Originally Posted By: samwik
Until then, isn't speculation fun?

Mike,
I wasn't speculating on the composition of the disappearing chunks; I agree they're probably ice.

I was speculating on the source of the disappearing chunks; that maybe they were scrapped off from the part that you're now talking about.

As I said, "I'm wondering if the scraped white surfaces are the exposed top of a large mass of ice....?
......>
Do you see the "moved" pebble?

confused


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Hi Samwick,

I'm not sure if I am able to find your 'moved' pebble
And yes, you are right the ice pebbles were probably scraped off the white/ice/wet, part at the top?
But I am pretty sure now that the scraped white surface is ice, with a covering of 'hoarfrost' on the top.
So the ice pebbles melted a lot faster than the hoarfrost? Thats strange.
Also the Suns shadow 'aint moved? Hehehe.
I'm looking at the larger picture, with the 2/3inch, referenced.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080621.html


Posted By: Mike Kremer Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft - 06/27/08 01:56 AM
Updates
NASA has melted some of the pure Earth Ice, it brought to Mars
and has placed some of the Martian soil in this "cup of water"

Preliminary results are:- It has the essential minerals for
growing plants. They mention Asparagus, but not Strawberries.

The soil water mixture will be further analysed in a few days
to see whether soil microbes have sprung to life, or what else has happened......Exciting.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080626-phoenix-update.html
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