Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 388 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 203
Canuck Offline OP
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 203
Here's an article (and the peer-reviewed paper that the article references) that some may find interesting.

It could be subtitled "NASA censors science that contradicts global warming alarmism"

Quote:

New derivation of equations governing the greenhouse effect reveals "runaway warming" impossible

Miklós Zágoni isn't just a physicist and environmental researcher. He is also a global warming activist and Hungary's most outspoken supporter of the Kyoto Protocol. Or was.

That was until he learned the details of a new theory of the greenhouse effect, one that not only gave far more accurate climate predictions here on Earth, but Mars too. The theory was developed by another Hungarian scientist, Ferenc Miskolczi, an atmospheric physicist with 30 years of experience and a former researcher with NASA's Langley Research Center.

After studying it, Zágoni stopped calling global warming a crisis, and has instead focused on presenting the new theory to other climatologists. The data fit extremely well. "I fell in love," he stated at the International Climate Change Conference this week.

"Runaway greenhouse theories contradict energy balance equations," Miskolczi states. Just as the theory of relativity sets an upper limit on velocity, his theory sets an upper limit on the greenhouse effect, a limit which prevents it from warming the Earth more than a certain amount.

How did modern researchers make such a mistake? They relied upon equations derived over 80 years ago, equations which left off one term from the final solution.

Miskolczi's story reads like a book. Looking at a series of differential equations for the greenhouse effect, he noticed the solution -- originally done in 1922 by Arthur Milne, but still used by climate researchers today -- ignored boundary conditions by assuming an "infinitely thick" atmosphere. Similar assumptions are common when solving differential equations; they simplify the calculations and often result in a result that still very closely matches reality. But not always.

So Miskolczi re-derived the solution, this time using the proper boundary conditions for an atmosphere that is not infinite. His result included a new term, which acts as a negative feedback to counter the positive forcing. At low levels, the new term means a small difference ... but as greenhouse gases rise, the negative feedback predominates, forcing values back down.

NASA refused to release the results. Miskolczi believes their motivation is simple. "Money", he tells DailyTech. Research that contradicts the view of an impending crisis jeopardizes funding, not only for his own atmosphere-monitoring project, but all climate-change research. Currently, funding for climate research tops $5 billion per year.

Miskolczi resigned in protest, stating in his resignation letter, "Unfortunately my working relationship with my NASA supervisors eroded to a level that I am not able to tolerate. My idea of the freedom of science cannot coexist with the recent NASA practice of handling new climate change related scientific results."

His theory was eventually published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal in his home country of Hungary.

The conclusions are supported by research published in the Journal of Geophysical Research last year from Steven Schwartz of Brookhaven National Labs, who gave statistical evidence that the Earth's response to carbon dioxide was grossly overstated. It also helps to explain why current global climate models continually predict more warming than actually measured.

The equations also answer thorny problems raised by current theory, which doesn't explain why "runaway" greenhouse warming hasn't happened in the Earth's past. The new theory predicts that greenhouse gas increases should result in small, but very rapid temperature spikes, followed by much longer, slower periods of cooling -- exactly what the paleoclimatic record demonstrates.

However, not everyone is convinced. Dr. Stephen Garner, with the NOAA's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory (GFDL), says such negative feedback effects are "not very plausible". Reto Ruedy of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies says greenhouse theory is "200 year old science" and doubts the possibility of dramatic changes to the basic theory.

Miskowlczi has used his theory to model not only Earth, but the Martian atmosphere as well, showing what he claims is an extremely good fit with observational results. For now, the data for Venus is too limited for similar analysis, but Miskolczi hopes it will one day be possible.


http://www.dailytech.com/Researcher+Basic+Greenhouse+Equations+Totally+Wrong/article10973c.htm

.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,164
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,164
Yes! Those "runaway greenhouse" theories are nuts. The idea that one process could predominate for so long, producing a "Venus-like" planet, is pretty far fetched. Does any IPCC model predict such a scenario?

"...result in small, but very rapid temperature spikes, followed by much longer, slower periods of cooling...." -C.

So, how small is small?
Correct me if I'm wrong here; but we have yet to see one of these kind of "spikes."
Sorry, guess I should check JGR, eh?

That's what I understood the predictions to be these days anyway though; that there'd be a spike followed by a slow, irreversible descent into another glaciation.

The amplitude and duration of each spike (one to several decades, or even centuries) are the unknowable parts. The kind of spikes that I've seen in the ice-core records do not look like something civilization could easily "weather." The gentle rolling oscillation, from MWP to LIA and back again has been hard enough.

Wow, this thing is all over the web. Guess I'll really have to look at JGR (or the Hungarian "peer-reviewed scientific journal"); but....
Whatever model, tweaked model, or amended version of a model is used, change in climate is still related to GHG's (as well as all the other forcers). I'd still rather avoid any spikes altogether by managing atmospheric levels of GHG's now.
cool


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,164
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,164
Originally Posted By: samwik
Guess I'll really have to look at JGR (or the Hungarian "peer-reviewed scientific journal"); but....

What idiot wrote about checking into that JGR article?
...oh, yea....

JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 112, D24S05, doi:10.1029/2007JD008746, Heat capacity, time constant, and sensitivity of Earth's climate system. Stephen E. Schwartz, Atmospheric Science Division,
Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, New York, USA

Abstract: (btw, "a" translates as yr. in this JGR article)
The equilibrium sensitivity of Earth's climate is determined as the quotient of the relaxation time constant of the system and the pertinent global heat capacity. The heat capacity of the global ocean, obtained from regression of ocean heat content versus global mean surface temperature, GMST, is 14 ± 6 W a m−2 K−1, equivalent to 110 m of ocean water; other sinks raise the effective planetary heat capacity to 17 ± 7 W a m−2 K−1 (all uncertainties are 1-sigma estimates). The time constant pertinent to changes in GMST is determined from autocorrelation of that quantity over 1880–2004 to be 5 ± 1 a. The resultant equilibrium climate sensitivity, 0.30 ± 0.14 K/(W m−2), corresponds to an equilibrium temperature increase for doubled CO2 of 1.1 ± 0.5 K. The short time constant implies that GMST is in near equilibrium with applied forcings and hence that net climate forcing over the twentieth century can be obtained from the observed temperature increase over this period, 0.57 ± 0.08 K, as 1.9 ± 0.9 W m−2. For this forcing considered the sum of radiative forcing by incremental greenhouse gases, 2.2 ± 0.3 W m−2, and other forcings, other forcing agents, mainly incremental tropospheric aerosols, are inferred to have exerted only a slight forcing over the twentieth century of −0.3 ± 1.0 W m−2.

....
Okay, I finally got thru that JGR paper. Interesting.
Ummm... Two points struck me before I got through the abstract; the reliance on a main assumption (and linkage to GMST), and the method for pulling out the equilibration (climate sensitivity) time constant.

Admittedly, Schwartz states,
"Here an initial attempt is made to determine climate sensitivity through energy balance considerations that are based on the time dependence of GMST and ocean heat content over the period for which instrumental measurements are available."

I just wish he'd included some possible factors to be considered in further attempts (or even possible confounding or currently omitted factors).

This paper is heavily based on Levitus' work on Oceanic Heat Content (more later).

I'm impressed that Schwartz comes within an order of magnitude of the IPCC estimates. One could easily imagine that this analysis has been attempted before, but the data was too sparse and unresolved. Finally we have enough data and resolution that we can more successfully attempt to look at a global energy budget.

While the math is daunting, it does lead to a figure half as much as the IPCC suggests. However, Schwartz provides ample "wiggle room" by using values with a 50% uncertainty, using new unproven assumptions, using unproven data, and by then discussing these problems.

Originally Posted By: Schwartz
"The findings of the present study may be considered surprising in several respects:"
"This value is well below current best estimates of this quantity, summarized in the Fourth Assessment Report of the IPCC [2007]...."
"This situation invites a scrutiny of the each of these findings for possible sources of error of interpretation in the present study."
"Perhaps a more fundamental question has to do with the representativeness of the data that comprise the Levitus et al. [2005] compilation."
"...suggest the necessity of evaluating the effective heat capacity based on a long-term record."
"Is the relaxation time constant ...the pertinent time constant of the climate system? Of the several assumptions on which the present analysis rests, this would seem to invite the greatest scrutiny."
...and finally....
"The rather large uncertainty range could be consistent with either substantial cooling forcing ...or substantial warming forcing...."


So don't bet the farm on these results yet, I guess.

Schwartz's conclusion is fair:
Originally Posted By: Schwartz
"Ultimately of course the climate models are essential to provide much more refined projections of climate change than would be available from the global mean quantities that result from an analysis of the present sort. Still it would seem that empirical examination of these global mean quantities, effective heat capacity, time constant, and sensitivity, can usefully constrain climate models and thereby help to identify means for improving the confidence in these models."

...can't argue with that....

Anyway, as mentioned, Levitus et al. [2005] informs a large part of Schwartz's paper.
Levitus is worth looking at; it has some neat charts and graphs.
Citation: Levitus, S., J. Antonov, and T. Boyer (2005), Warming of the world ocean, 1955–2003, Geophys. Res. Lett., 32, L02604, doi:10.1029/2004GL021592.


Looking at Schwartz's paper, I kept thinking that Levitus must have not taken enough measurement to get a good picture and/or that he'd not accounted for the Arctic melting. Silly me. This is a great paper, but I'm sure future endeavors will provide a more complete and accurate picture.

Levitus does at least talk about indications of great variability between the major oceans; as well as between basins, depths and latitudes.
Originally Posted By: Levitus
"Two other regions of cooling include the North Pacific around 40_N and the North Atlantic centered at 60_N. ....Dickson et al. [2002] documented the cooling and freshening of the deep waters of the Labrador Sea since the early-1970s which has resulted in the cooling of the deep waters of the entire subarctic gyre of the North Atlantic [Levitus and Antonov, 1995]. ....In addition to our earlier work, Southern Ocean warming between the 1950s and 1980s has been documented by Gille [2002] based on in situ observations including PALACE float data. ....For the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans the increases of heat content (linear trends) are respectively 7.7, 3.3, and 3.5 × 10^22 J. As with our previous work, it is the Atlantic Ocean that contributes most to the increase in heat content."

This is all based on over 1.5 Million measurements!
(That's one point that was better than I expected.)

(...and they account for Arctic melting.) (see the charts).
That's another point I thought maybe they'd missed, but noooo.

But Schwartz cautions us about the Levitus information.
Levitus, similarly, cautions us about the certainty and completeness of his conclusions.

Originally Posted By: Levitus
"....we may be underestimating ocean warming. This is possible since we do not have complete data coverage for the world ocean."
"...we believe that the long-term trend as seen in these records is due to the increase of greenhouse gases...."
& finally,
"Our discussion here has not been to minimize the impacts of warming of the lower atmosphere due to increasing greenhouse gases, we are simply placing Earth's heat balance in perspective. The response of the Earth's climate system to changes in radiative forcing is often cast as the response of the Earth's surface temperature to these forcings. This is understandable because we live at the Earth's surface and there has been a lack of subsurface ocean data with which to conduct Earth system heat balance studies. Improved scientific understanding requires that we study the response of all components of the Earth's heat balance, of which the world ocean is the dominant term."


Maybe I'll try to find the Hungarian paper to see how certain its conclusion sounds; but this [Levitus] paper's conclusion seems to be fairly equivocal:
"...suggests that internal variability of the Earth system significantly affects Earth's heat balance...."
...
There was one curious similarity; for both [Levitus & the Hungarian referenced] papers, the "result included a new term," which made the equations more accurate.
The "new terms" are completely different, so maybe that's not the "conclusions ...supported by research published in the Journal of Geophysical Research last year from Steven Schwartz" connection (I know, it's the 1.1 degree thing -but the "1.1 degrees" comes from completely different reasoning!!!).

...but that aside....
Schwartz (via Levitus) introduces "an additional term in the Earth's heat balance ...[which] is the variability of the heat content of Earth's lithosphere."

WOW! I spent a couple of hours with that one too.
"Beltrami et al. [2002] used temperature profile data from boreholes to make this estimate. They estimate that Earth's continents warmed by 0.9 × 10^22 J during the past 50 years. This value is of the same order as the warming of the Earth's atmosphere during this period...."

Anyway, there is another Schwartz paper, which is not restricted/pay access.
http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf
It's virtually the same, but the math is harder (not refined yet?).

Schwartz et al., sure is a well-referenced paper. Beyond Levitus, Schwartz cites Jim Hansen, Trenberth and the IPCC (as well as Einstein's 1905, seminal paper on Brownian Motion!).

...but how about that lithospheric revelation?
Beltrami, H., J. E. Smerdon, H. N. Pollack, and S. Huang (2002), Continental heat gain in the global climate system, Geophys. Res. Lett., 29(8), 1167, doi:10.1029/2001GL014310.
"These fluxes indicate that 30% of the heat gained by the ground in the last five centuries was deposited during the last fifty years, and over half of the five-century heat gain occurred during the 20th century."

Feel free to ask questions; I'm fairly familiar (groan) with these papers now.
smile


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokÂþ»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5