Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Physics Forum Spinning Semiconductors and Gravity

Ok, my first post here, I simply searched google for someplace where science was discussed, and here was number one.

I was randomly clicking and linking around the net reading random things, like you do, and bumped into This ("Searl Effect") wierd, and more than likely BS. This was a long while ago...

Yesterday, talking to a friend of mine who's very interested and knowledgeable in the field of physics, he explained the full ramifications of Relativity, and how exactly the 4th Dimension of our perceived universe works. Well, most of the calculations are lost on me, but I understand the concept.

Now, I am going somewhere with this I promise :p

Something about semiconductors caught my attention in a New Scientist issue I bummed from the aforementioned learned friend, and found this New Scientist article describing unusual gravitational forces in spinning superconductors.

Given these findings, may there be a shred of credibility to some of the claims made of the "Searl Effect"?

Fluke

Disclaimer: Don't flame me for anything in my post, it's a meant to provoke some serious, sensible investigation/theorising by individuals more capable than myself, into the effects of Gravity on matter and Space-Time, and the possible applications of such a discovery. :p

Hiya Fluke, welcome....
I'll try to check out these links sometime, but I like the thought. Several years ago I was very into relativity and string theories. Spin is something that always puzzled me and seemed to appear all over the place. ~vague enough?

The point being that spin must be much more significant than we realize. At first I thought of spin as one of the other dimensions, but now I see it as a manifestation stemming from the intersection (or interaction) of 'something' of the other dimensions with our familiar spacetime.

Regardless of where your links lead, spin is interesting, eh?
Good luck,

~SA

The "Searl Effect" was bad science and is bad science.

There are certainly things about gravity we do not know.

This scam was not one of them.

The "Searl Effect" wasn't the real intented focus of my post, just something that seemed oddly related..

Seriously though, a spinning niobium superconductor causing a localised gravitational force, detectable by our own instruments?

Anyone hear of any other strange superconductor behavior? ideas? postulations?

Fluke

Keep the question mark behind the statement and you'll do just fine. <g>

Hi Fluke, and welcome.

The name Dr Podkletnov, came into my mind re your query. I have found a few notes I made about 10 yrs ago, which might interest you. Prehaps you might find similar updates?

If you dont find any? Might be due to it being such an important line of research, that the authorities have blocked further communication, on the basis of security. Or, no one else could confirm the experiments and it was quietly dropped.
***
High Temperature Superconductor Research
Project 96-07
Investigators: R.J. Koczor/EA01
D.A. Noever/ES76
G.A. Robertson/EP32
Ning Li/UAH

Purpose
The purpose of this project is to investigate an interaction reported in the peer-reviewed literature between a rotating high temperature superconductor (HTSC) in a magnetic field and the local gravity field. Under certain conditions, the effect exhibits itself as a reported change in the local gravity field. This investigation is the outgrowth of previous CDDF work and theoretical work performed at UAH. This work is being done under a Cooperative Agreement with UAH. The experiment is being funded through Marshall Space Flight Center Director's Discretionary Funding and a small amount of Advanced Space Transportation and Propulsion Program breakthrough propulsion physics funding.
Background
In 1992, Dr. Podkletnov, Tampere University, Finland, published results of his experimentation with high-Tc ceramic superconductors. He devised an experiment in which a disk of superconducting material was magnetically levitated and rotated at high speed (up to several thousand rpm) in the presence of an external magnetic field. In the course of the tests he noted that objects above the rotating disk showed a variable but measurable loss of weight (variable from <0.5% to around 2%). He had no explanation for this effect but went through a self-described rigorous effort to eliminate systematic or other possible sources of error. Having done so, he found that the effect remained.
In 1989, Dr. Ning Li, UAH, developed a theoretical formulation which establishes a connection between a superconductor in a strong magnetic field, rotation, and the gravitational force. She has published three peer-reviewed papers (between 1990 and 1993) which explain the basis of her theory. Her theory builds upon previous theoretical and experimental work involving superconduction and gravity. This CDDF investigation is attempting to duplicate the Finnish experiment (with some improvements) to verify the reported Podkletnov effect.
***
Approach
E. Podkletnov and R. Nieminen reported studies in which a single-phase dense bulk superconducting ceramic of YBa2Cu3O7-d was held at temperatures below 60 K, levitated over a toroidal solenoid, and induced into rotation using coils with rotating magnetic fields similar to those used in regular electric motors. The authors report that a small "nonconducting and nonmagnetic" SiO2 sample of mass 5.48 g, placed in a position above the levitating superconducting disk, loses "from 0.05 to 0.3% of its weight, depending on the rotation speed of the superconducting disk." The authors reach the conclusion that bulk YBa2Cu3O7 can produce a small shielding effect against the gravitational force, the effect increasing somewhat with rotation speed and depending upon temperature.
***
Accomplishments
To date, the helium cryostat has been developed and work on the high speed rotation system and the magnetic levitation system is proceeding. Tradeoffs concerning use of permanent magnet levitators versus superconducting magnets has been completed and the approach selected uses 0.6 Tesla ceramic permanent magnets. A computerized magnetic field simulation program is being used to define the resulting levitation field.
The die for pressing the 12 inch superconducting disk has been built and several trial runs of disk pressing have been underway. Various heat treating processes have been investigated and a melt-textured process, heating to about 1050C, has been selected for our first attempts. The pressed disks are being heat treated in a high oxygen atmosphere in research furnaces at UAH and Marshall.
A low magnetic field (around 1000 gauss) test fixture is being built to test for gravity effects in a smaller, commercially available YBCO disk. This fixture will cool the 4 inch disk to around 40K and allow rotation to as high as 7000 to 8000 rpm.
Design trades are being developed for the high speed rotation system, with various possibilities being investigated. The system must rotate at high speed in a cryogenic environment.
***
Publications
Several publications are expected as the investigation matures. Two articles have been submitted for publication covering initial material science findings. A complete report on the experiment apparatus and results will be published in a NASA TM.
Planned Future Work
The experiment will be operational by the end of 1997, with various tests of the effect underway through the next year.
References
Podkletnov, E. and Nieminen (1992), "A Possibility of Gravitational Force Shielding by Bulk YBa2Cu3O7 Superconductor," Physica C 203, pp. 441-444, 1992
Li, N. and Torr, D.G. (1991), "Effects of a Gravitomagnetic Field on Pure Superconductors," Phys Rev. D, Vol. 43, No.2, pp. 457-459, Jan 1991.
Li, N. and Torr, D.G. (1992), "Gravitational Effects on the Magnetic Attenuation of Superconductors," Phys Rev B, Vol. 46, No.9, pp. 5489-5495, Sept 1992.
Torr, D.G. and Li, N. (1993), "Gravitoelectric-Electric Coupling via Superconductivity," Found. Phys Letters, Vol. 6, No.4, pp. 371-383, 1993.
***
Quantum Cavorite: Gravity Shielding: Superconductors:
***
Trust the above will keep you occupied Fluke.

--------------------
"You will never find a real Human being - even in a mirror." .....Mike Kremer.
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Bingo.

I'll do some more digging/reading, see what else I can come up with.

Fluke

Minor update;

Gravity Probe B appears to confirm einsteins predicted "frame-dragging" and "geodetic effect".

I'm particularly interested in the frame-dragging effect as this appears to be enhanced by a spinning superconductor, this was, to my understanding, how they measured the nanoscopic effect in the first instance.

I have a feeling that the "negation of gravity" or "gravity shielding" effect seen in Podkletnov's experiments, and encountered more recently in Austria (Martin Tajmar), may be linked in some way to Einstein's predicted warping of space-time.

More as I figure this out..

Fluke

Hiya Fluke

Does it even make sense to ask if Gravity can be Lensed in the same way as light gets distorted by a gravity lens? ...and I'm not asking rhetorically; I just don't know much about these things.

Is this the sort of shielding you're thinking of?

Thanks for the update,
~SA

Samwik asks:
"Does it even make sense to ask if Gravity can be Lensed in the same way as light"

Yes. Gravity should affect gravity recursively.

Assuming gravity is nothing more than a curve in space-time, then, sure, one curve should effect another, in the same way constuctive/destructive interference works with waves.

I know this sounds *really* stupid, but I kinda "feel" how this works, but I can't describe it

Fluke

As I sit here trying to think of something to say, it occurs to me that we don't know what we're talking about (on many levels too).
Anyway, is "shielding" the same as lensing?

Is gravity (v.slightly) distorted by the light that is also lenses?

--I realize that these questions address light-light; light-gravity; and gravity-light interactions, so now back to the original question: gravity-gravity interactions.

Maybe spinning gravity waves interfere destructively with non-spinning gravity, but if both are the same (spinning or non-spinnning) they add constructively.

shielding vs. damping (attenuation).

Random musings from....

~SA

I'm now wondering if there might be certain frequencies (rates of spin) that would harmonically resonate with a static gravity field (either construct/destructively).

~SA

Given that it is not true wouldn't it be better to just let go of it?

There is no such thing as anti-gravity ever demonstrated: Ever!

Hiya Fluke,
Maybe you should request that this thread be moved to "Not-Quite-Science" forum. This "Physics" forum seems to be not for speculative musings or questions, (or for people who don't know what they're talking about -like me), but only for established facts, ever.

That's refreshingly modest. Few of us do, half the time. We can learn a lot though, can't we!

Errrr.... right...

At least two independent Labs have confirmed this effect, that strikes me as more than "crackpot" science.

Fluke

Hiya Fluke,

I havn't even looked at the links on this stuff, but I do like thinking about this kind of stuff. Sometimes I can't tell the difference between crackpot/real science; but if I could, I'd be thinking a lot less, so I'm happy with that.

More power to ya....
and I'll go check out the links.
~SA

Well I finally got to the links. way cool....

Searle effect sounds like perpetual motion. I keep hoping to see some dramatic new physics in my lifetime (not that I don't marvel at what's already been figured out).

I was struck by the statement:
"...if the gravitons inside a superconductor behaved like photons and gained mass as well."

Photons gain mass when supercooled? Wow, learn something new every day!

Thanks,
~Samwik

Not on topic but Redewenur wrote:

"That's refreshingly modest. Few of us do, half the time. We can learn a lot though, can't we!"

That's what is so great about SAGG. Thanks everyone.